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laker4life
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Joined: 26 Nov 2001
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 Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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| kray28_ wrote: | I was just thinking last night, that I don't think there was another coach I detested more than D'Antoni.
His entire coaching tenure was basically a huge Eff You from Jim to the fan base.
The karmic consequences were not surprising in that regard. |
It was Eff you from to Jim to Phil that he was going to do it his way.
What a loser. |
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PrairieAve
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Joined: 23 May 2009
Posts: 4209
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| SuperboyReformed wrote: | I hope I don't get banned...
but I am *mildly* amused by the coincidence of massive amounts of injuries during the one year in history where we happen to tank. that is all.
I also have to add this: at least in Kobe's case, my opinion is that his injuries are largely due to the fact that the officials contiually allow more contact on Kobe than most other stars of his status, both currently and in the past. Why did MJ never have the hand injuries that Kobe got? If you got near Jordan's hands, he was at the line. Not so anymore. But of course, nobody talks about that. |
It sounds like you're confusing Jordan with Lebron. Jordan used to get abused by the Pistons, Celtics etc. Now, the NBA awarded their golden boy fouls and free-throws, which didn't always happen to Kobe... but Jordan played through contact and fouls that would likely be ruled flagrants/techs/ejections against today's flagship player.
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Last edited by PrairieAve on Sat Aug 02, 2014 3:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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epak
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Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 34147
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| laker4life wrote: | | kray28_ wrote: | I was just thinking last night, that I don't think there was another coach I detested more than D'Antoni.
His entire coaching tenure was basically a huge Eff You from Jim to the fan base.
The karmic consequences were not surprising in that regard. |
It was Eff you from to Jim to Phil that he was going to do it his way.
What a loser. |
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shoulder doc
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Joined: 07 Jul 2014
Posts: 231
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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It's simply a medical fact that when your body fatigues you are more susceptible to injury. One area of your body fatigues so the other part compensates which puts more strain on it then it's used to and at some point the body has to rest or eventually breaks down. I can't prove that Kobe excessive minutes caused his Achilles injury as it is true that some people will get them in a snap quick freak incident. However I am sure that most people will understand that if you were playing too many minutes and your body is tired and you had a couple of leg injuries during the game and played through it that it would seem medically logical that that could have contributed to the eventual Achilles tear. I don't Consider that some extreme medical theory.
Now it's a fact that there's been lots of injuries in the last two years. It's a fact that Dantoni was our coach during those two years. It's a fact that many of our guards went down from young to old. The same thing also happened in New York and that's how Lin sanity was born because he was the last guard on the bench and had to play because there was no one else. So you can either conclude that there has just been bad luck and these injuries are purely coincidence or you could think that perhaps the pace or style of play could have contributed to these injuries. |
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Theseus
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Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 14208
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Were the showtime lakers prone to a lot of injuries too? I know that Pat Riley practices were known for being pretty demanding with a lot of running, so did that mean the Lakers were constantly injured? |
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PLATNUM
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Joined: 17 Dec 2002
Posts: 7191
Location: L.A.
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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After Phil was booted... management also got rid of a ton of supporting staff which I'm assuming included secondary trainers and conditioning coaches and such. Vitti has been around a loooong time... is he really keeping up with modern day science and practices? They got rid of Phil, but also A LOT of supporting staff and kept Vitti and brought in Margaret Cho.
Sure the style of play might not have helped, but I'm not going to agree with Vitti on this one. He knows the veteran players like Kobe and Pau better than anyone else on the entire team considering he's been here so long... he should be accountable too.
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PayasoLoco
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Joined: 07 Jul 2001
Posts: 16663
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| We have one of the worst medical staffs in the league. Since the Malone injury how often have they been totally wrong with the treatment and time table our players need to return. Now look at phx med staff |
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Hard_Butter
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Joined: 02 Jan 2012
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Location: The Two One Three
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| PLATNUM wrote: | After Phil was booted... management also got rid of a ton of supporting staff which I'm assuming included secondary trainers and conditioning coaches and such. Vitti has been around a loooong time... is he really keeping up with modern day science and practices? They got rid of Phil, but also A LOT of supporting staff and kept Vitti and brought in Margaret Cho.
Sure the style of play might not have helped, but I'm not going to agree with Vitti on this one. He knows the veteran players like Kobe and Pau better than anyone else on the entire team considering he's been here so long... he should be accountable too. |
Way to slip that in there all ninja-like.
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | I'd also surmise that a high paced jump shooting team would generally experience fewer injuries than a halfcourt team that consistently attacks the paint. |
The Lakers were a high paced jump shooting team last year.
Most injuries in a Laker season ever. |
Right. And you think the fact that we were a high paced jump shooting team last year is the cause? Or that if we were a team that relentlessly attacked the basket that, we might have seen even more injuries?
I mean, that's why I said "generally". No offense is going to yield no injuries on a consistent basis. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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| l4kerz wrote: | | oliverginob wrote: | | Id blame it on minutes which D'Antoni doesn't manage well. you could expect to play anywhere between 4 seconds and 40 minutes as a role player. |
+1. D'Antoni doesn't know how to manage players and make use of the bench. Kobe was playing a lot of minutes (38+/game) and all D'Antoni said was, "He won't let me take him out of the game." In NY, Lin only got a chance when Shumpert got injured and there were no other options. |
So who got hurt last year because of too many minutes?
Was Meeks the only player who played more than 33 MPG? |
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Goldenwest
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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I believe it. The empirical data does not lie. you have two years under the faster pace and 50-100 % or more injuries compared to the previous 4 years? That's a good enough sample size.
We lost D12 and Pau because of this, but we'll re-group; MDA is gone. The only real loss is Kobe getting got caught big time in the whirlwind. This probably shortened his career. |
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Vin
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Location: France
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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I heard D'Antoni answer a journalist after a press conference about that and he said that if anything his style should lower injurys since his offense produces less contact and physical plays. I think I agree with that.
Last edited by Vin on Sat Aug 02, 2014 6:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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iggypop123
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Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 5402
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| PLATNUM wrote: | After Phil was booted... management also got rid of a ton of supporting staff which I'm assuming included secondary trainers and conditioning coaches and such. Vitti has been around a loooong time... is he really keeping up with modern day science and practices? They got rid of Phil, but also A LOT of supporting staff and kept Vitti and brought in Margaret Cho.
Sure the style of play might not have helped, but I'm not going to agree with Vitti on this one. He knows the veteran players like Kobe and Pau better than anyone else on the entire team considering he's been here so long... he should be accountable too. |
yeah during the lockout they cleaned house. fired a guy who now works with toronto. phil loved him cause he kept guys on the court. one of the best in the business. it may have been a cost cutting move or just purging phil related people but now we cant stay healthy. look at how healthy toronto was recently.
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Don Draper
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Joined: 21 Feb 2008
Posts: 28464
Location: LA --> Bay Area
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| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 6:14 am Post subject: |
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| I hated MDA but this is Vitti looking for a scapegoat. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 6:30 am Post subject: |
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| Goldenwest wrote: | I believe it. The empirical data does not lie. you have two years under the faster pace and 50-100 % or more injuries compared to the previous 4 years? That's a good enough sample size.
We lost D12 and Pau because of this, but we'll re-group; MDA is gone. The only real loss is Kobe getting got caught big time in the whirlwind. This probably shortened his career. |
The data does not lie, but the interpretation does.
We weren't even the fastest paced team in the league. I believe the 76ers were.
Plus, which injuries that we sustained last year, can be reasonably attributed to pace? Kobe's knee injury?! |
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wolfpaclaker
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Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58344
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| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 6:35 am Post subject: |
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| laker4life wrote: | | kray28_ wrote: | I was just thinking last night, that I don't think there was another coach I detested more than D'Antoni.
His entire coaching tenure was basically a huge Eff You from Jim to the fan base.
The karmic consequences were not surprising in that regard. |
It was Eff you from to Jim to Phil that he was going to do it his way.
What a loser. |
The sad part about the whole thing.
Mike D'Antoni is 12 M richer.
Phil Jackson went to the Knicks and gets his FO control and is 60 M richer.
Dwight leaves and is on a better team and 88 M richer.
Lakers are making 100 M in profit, so Jim is richer.
Us Laker diehard fans? We're contemplating whether to tank or not tank. What the future is. The biggest loser in all of this has been the Laker fans. We were robbed of seeing one last run in the Kobe era, IMO. |
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Phillycheese
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Joined: 13 Jul 2014
Posts: 332
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| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 6:44 am Post subject: |
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| Xtreme wrote: | | It's the minutes , MDA rides his players to the ground |
Like fricking Secretariat as he once famously said. |
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Goldenwest
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Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2802
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| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | Goldenwest wrote: | I believe it. The empirical data does not lie. you have two years under the faster pace and 50-100 % or more injuries compared to the previous 4 years? That's a good enough sample size.
We lost D12 and Pau because of this, but we'll re-group; MDA is gone. The only real loss is Kobe getting got caught big time in the whirlwind. This probably shortened his career. |
The data does not lie, but the interpretation does.
We weren't even the fastest paced team in the league. I believe the 76ers were.
Plus, which injuries that we sustained last year, can be reasonably attributed to pace? Kobe's knee injury?! |
They didn't have to be the fastest paced team to sustain all these injuries. But they were a high tempo fast paced team. Much faster than the years before MDA. They were jacking shots well within the shot clock almost always. Maybe not always 7 seconds or less but close. Faster pace meant more running up and down the court in the game. I'm sure it wore Pau down, maybe Young, x, and Meeks also. I think guys like Pau and Kobe were wrong for this pace. Maybe the other injuries could partly be attributed to lack of conditioning.
Faster pace means more energy expended, more energy expended means more stress on the body. More stress means more strain.
I definitely believe pace had a lot to do with it. It wasn't coincidence. |
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cathy78
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| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| zePokar wrote: | | I heard D'Antoni answer a journalist after a press conference about that and he said that if anything his style should lower injuries since his offense produces less contact and physical plays. I think I agree with that. |
I could agree with that, but I don't think the contact creates the injuries. Would be interesting to see how many injuries result actually from having physical contact to another player. And which player is the worst (my guess would be DWade).
I do have to agree with Vitti that the fast pace creates the injuries. It might not be the fast running. But the senseless and uncontrolled running. It just sometimes feels like a wolf jumping into a flock of chicken. The brain just doesn't work as fast as some of these athletes can run. A well paced well thought pace with post ups just doesn't create a constant adrenaline rush... |
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Aussiesuede
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Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 10964
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| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:17 am Post subject: |
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| cathy78 wrote: | | zePokar wrote: | | I heard D'Antoni answer a journalist after a press conference about that and he said that if anything his style should lower injuries since his offense produces less contact and physical plays. I think I agree with that. |
I could agree with that, but I don't think the contact creates the injuries. Would be interesting to see how many injuries result actually from having physical contact to another player |
It's not just the actual collision, but the moves to avoid collision as well. When running full speed, and a defender scrambles to impede a players progress, the offensive player must then plant a foot to change direction. The faster that player is traveling when he makes that plant, the greater the force is that's exerted on muscles, joints, and ligaments. Had he been traveling more slowly under control, the less aggressive those forces would be. Increased pace increases the risk of injury both in collision, and collision avoidance scenarios. Much like when a running back plants.
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I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
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Treble Clef
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Joined: 20 Nov 2012
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| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Aussiesuede wrote: | | cathy78 wrote: | | zePokar wrote: | | I heard D'Antoni answer a journalist after a press conference about that and he said that if anything his style should lower injuries since his offense produces less contact and physical plays. I think I agree with that. |
I could agree with that, but I don't think the contact creates the injuries. Would be interesting to see how many injuries result actually from having physical contact to another player |
It's not just the actual collision, but the moves to avoid collision as well. When running full speed, and a defender scrambles to impede a players progress, the offensive player must then plant a foot to change direction. The faster that player is traveling when he makes that plant, the greater the force is that's exerted on muscles, joints, and ligaments. Had he been traveling more slowly under control, the less aggressive those forces would be. Increased pace increases the risk of injury both in collision, and collision avoidance scenarios. Much like when a running back plants. |
I'm curious to see a list of all of the Lakers injuries over the last two years to see how many can be reasonably explained by pace. From the ones I remember, they were mostly fluky plays that seemingly could have happened to anyone at anytime.
Gasol had hamstring and foot pains, common for big men and they're conditions he has had for years now. He also had a bout with vertigo?!?
Nash is old and hardly played.
Kobe played a dangerous number of minutes before going down with an achilles injury that may or may not have been caused by excessive minutes or pace. He came back and injured himself playing slow paced (high contact) post up basketball.
Meeks came down on someone's foot on a shot.
Henry banged his head on a teammate, banged his knee on a drive, and banged his wrist on the rim on a dunk.
Kaman got injured just sitting on the bench.
Hill, same as Kaman.
Farmar. Always injured.
Nick Young, broke his knee while being wrapped up on a breakaway layup attempt.
Bazemore, injured himself walking.
Blake stepped on a spike strip and later hyper extended his elbow with his funky shooting form.
Kobe's first injury is the only one I remember that you can say better minutes management MAY have been prevented it. |
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KingKobe20
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Joined: 14 Jul 2006
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Location: L.A County, 26 miles away from Staples Center
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| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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Translation:
Dantoni dragged our players through the concrete of the staples center parking lot and back. With really no solid structure and defensive philosophy.
Of course age and mileage also played a part but Dantoni aiming for our team to average 110 points a game rather than just locking down other teams was pretty much the death wish from the start.
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Aussiesuede
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| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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There are currently many comparative studies being done on sports injuries in men vs women and the data clearly suggests that the PRIMARY cause of injury is a condition called: miserable malalignment.
| Quote: | Miserable Malalignment is where feet roll inward or pronate, are flat, and the force on the kneecaps is exacerbated by an internal rotation of the thigh bone and weakness in the inner quadricep and pelvic muscles. Since women have wider pelvises than men and less developed musculature, it affect the alignment, strength and movement of women's extremities. The interplay between form, alignment, body composition, physiology, and physical performance is directly related to injury risk and explains why women playing basketball and soccer suffer ankle, knee, and thigh injury rates that are anywhere from 1.5 to 3 times that of their male counterparts.
When men engage in body contortions that increase their rate of miserable malalignment , then they suffer an increased rate of injury similar to that of their female counterparts who's injury rate is directly affected by their more natural state of miserable malalignment when compared to their male counterparts.
Miserable Malalignment increases force on the knees, often resulting in kneecap injuries such as patellofemoral syndrome . The kneecap is pulled towards the outside of the knee and does not track properly, resulting in rubbing and pain that can limit form and function. It can also lead to other injuries including patella dislocation or subluxation, where the kneecap comes out of its groove.
Injuries to the ACL are also more common in women due to the same factors, and increase in men during periods of artificially induced miserable malalignment which become pronounced during certain athletic manuevers. The rate of ACL injuries is three to six times higher in women than men, especially in soccer and basketball. These are usually non-contact injuries, resulting from sudden deceleration movements or jumping. When women land, they land more upright. When men injure their ACL's, it's most commonly due to mimicking the female upright posture when engaging a sudden deceleration movement (ie, during planting).
Hamstring strengthening is vital for controlling deceleration. Studies have shown a decrease in ACL injury rates with hamstring strengthening programmes.
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Comparison of Sports Injuries - American Journal of Sports Medicine
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I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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D'Antoni's fastest teams were among the healthiest.
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Krispy Kreme
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| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | D'Antoni's fastest teams were among the healthiest. |
yes.. but those "fast" teams had young players on them. amare, marion, nash, raja bell, etc and their role players were pretty young.
when you have an old team like pau, kobe, and howard coming off a major injury, then its obvious you shouldn't use the same style as you did with that young team.
it just wasn't the right fit. not saying i think it's all MDA's fault we had injuries 2 years ago. but his style of play, and our age were the 2 biggest factors.
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