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yinoma2001
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 Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:28 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | I will never make the mistake again of suggesting or believing Kobe will "play for cheap." For better or worse he will command top dollars or not play. That's just how he's wired. |
And that is the way the NBA is set up, for the stars to be the highest paid players. I am less impressed with Lebron when I realize that he has never been the highest paid player on his team. |
Not really. The owners have cleaverly (whether this was intended or not) set up a system where superstar players have to take paycuts or be killed by the collective fan base. So you have guys like Dirk/Duncan taking massive paycuts. It's stinks for the players that the owners pocket the savings while unfairly pinning Star Player X as being "selfish."
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Chronicle
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:31 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Not really. The owners have cleverly (whether this was intended or not) set up a system where superstar players have to take paycuts or be killed by the a small part of fan base. So you have guys like Dirk/Duncan taking massive paycuts. It's stinks for the players that the owners pocket the savings while unfairly pinning Star Player X as being "selfish." |
fixed.
Just because you are complaining all the time doesn't mean all of Laker fans are. In fact most casual laker fans (which is a much bigger number than the more passionate ones) don't even know/care about it at all.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:40 am Post subject: |
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| Chronicle wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Not really. The owners have cleverly (whether this was intended or not) set up a system where superstar players have to take paycuts or be killed by the a small part of fan base. So you have guys like Dirk/Duncan taking massive paycuts. It's stinks for the players that the owners pocket the savings while unfairly pinning Star Player X as being "selfish." |
fixed.
Just because you are complaining all the time doesn't mean all of Laker fans are. In fact most casual laker fans (which is a much bigger number than the more passionate ones) don't even know/care about it at all. |
Probably should get your facts straight first, at least with respect to LG. Here's a sample poll:
http://forums.lakersground.net/togo/thread.php?topic_id=165471
301 votes, 163 (54%) were against Kobe's contract.
Listen, the very fact that someone like me (and for the record I still blame FO more than Kobe for it), who has not had any general critical feelings about Kobe was unhappy about the contract extension should mean something. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant. We are all Lakers fans. But as my comment stated, the owners have made it so that the player, not the FO, bears the brunt of the criticism. It shouldn't be Kobe taking the brunt of it, but the FO. As many rightfully pointed out, they offered it, and Kobe obliged.
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:55 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | I will never make the mistake again of suggesting or believing Kobe will "play for cheap." For better or worse he will command top dollars or not play. That's just how he's wired. |
And that is the way the NBA is set up, for the stars to be the highest paid players. I am less impressed with Lebron when I realize that he has never been the highest paid player on his team. |
Not really. The owners have cleaverly (whether this was intended or not) set up a system where superstar players have to take paycuts or be killed by the collective fan base. So you have guys like Dirk/Duncan taking massive paycuts. It's stinks for the players that the owners pocket the savings while unfairly pinning Star Player X as being "selfish." |
That is a problem with fans, not the CBA. The CBA is set up to sign two star and highly paid players and then fill the roster will role players. But since some players decided to treat their owners as charity cases fans expect that all the time. I sure as hell would get all I could if I were a star in this league. Revenues are at all time highs and the owners are pocketing most of it, no way would I subsidize them more than the players already have with this CBA.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:01 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | I will never make the mistake again of suggesting or believing Kobe will "play for cheap." For better or worse he will command top dollars or not play. That's just how he's wired. |
And that is the way the NBA is set up, for the stars to be the highest paid players. I am less impressed with Lebron when I realize that he has never been the highest paid player on his team. |
Not really. The owners have cleaverly (whether this was intended or not) set up a system where superstar players have to take paycuts or be killed by the collective fan base. So you have guys like Dirk/Duncan taking massive paycuts. It's stinks for the players that the owners pocket the savings while unfairly pinning Star Player X as being "selfish." |
That is a problem with fans, not the CBA. The CBA is set up to sign two star and highly paid players and then fill the roster will role players. But since some players decided to treat their owners as charity cases fans expect that all the time. I sure as hell would get all I could if I were a star in this league. Revenues are at all time highs and the owners are pocketing most of it, no way would I subsidize them more than the players already have with this CBA. |
I wasn't assigning blame to fans/CBA. Just commenting on trends. Owners have been able to acquire talent on a cheaper basis thanks to the players; when players don't do it the fanbase is unhappy. So who wins? The owners. I think we agree on that.
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:21 am Post subject: |
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We definitely agree on that. The bad thing for the players is that by subsidizing the owners beyond the CBA (Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Duncan, Dirk), it will likely weaken their negotiations with the next CBA.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:24 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | We definitely agree on that. The bad thing for the players is that by subsidizing the owners beyond the CBA (Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Duncan, Dirk), it will likely weaken their negotiations with the next CBA. |
To be fair, Lebron/Bosh both got max deals after taking slight paycuts in Miami.
Unfortunately, I think a lockout is going to happen. Owners have also "hurt" their position with the record-prices for franchises. So both sides may have intractable positions. Owners have deeper pockets and like clockwork, players will relent.
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Hector the Pup
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Chronicle wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Not really. The owners have cleverly (whether this was intended or not) set up a system where superstar players have to take paycuts or be killed by the a small part of fan base. So you have guys like Dirk/Duncan taking massive paycuts. It's stinks for the players that the owners pocket the savings while unfairly pinning Star Player X as being "selfish." |
fixed.
Just because you are complaining all the time doesn't mean all of Laker fans are. In fact most casual laker fans (which is a much bigger number than the more passionate ones) don't even know/care about it at all. |
Probably should get your facts straight first, at least with respect to LG. Here's a sample poll:
http://forums.lakersground.net/togo/thread.php?topic_id=165471
301 votes, 163 (54%) were against Kobe's contract.
Listen, the very fact that someone like me (and for the record I still blame FO more than Kobe for it), who has not had any general critical feelings about Kobe was unhappy about the contract extension should mean something. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant. We are all Lakers fans. But as my comment stated, the owners have made it so that the player, not the FO, bears the brunt of the criticism. It shouldn't be Kobe taking the brunt of it, but the FO. As many rightfully pointed out, they offered it, and Kobe obliged. |
At the end of the day, the fans of any sport who even bother to know about salaries, contracts, CBA's, etc. represent a minority so small it barely qualifies as negligible. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| Hector the Pup wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Chronicle wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Not really. The owners have cleverly (whether this was intended or not) set up a system where superstar players have to take paycuts or be killed by the a small part of fan base. So you have guys like Dirk/Duncan taking massive paycuts. It's stinks for the players that the owners pocket the savings while unfairly pinning Star Player X as being "selfish." |
fixed.
Just because you are complaining all the time doesn't mean all of Laker fans are. In fact most casual laker fans (which is a much bigger number than the more passionate ones) don't even know/care about it at all. |
Probably should get your facts straight first, at least with respect to LG. Here's a sample poll:
http://forums.lakersground.net/togo/thread.php?topic_id=165471
301 votes, 163 (54%) were against Kobe's contract.
Listen, the very fact that someone like me (and for the record I still blame FO more than Kobe for it), who has not had any general critical feelings about Kobe was unhappy about the contract extension should mean something. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant. We are all Lakers fans. But as my comment stated, the owners have made it so that the player, not the FO, bears the brunt of the criticism. It shouldn't be Kobe taking the brunt of it, but the FO. As many rightfully pointed out, they offered it, and Kobe obliged. |
At the end of the day, the fans of any sport who even bother to know about salaries, contracts, CBA's, etc. represent a minority so small it barely qualifies as negligible. |
Who says it's just the people who care about the minutiae you identified? Unless there is an objective poll out there that indicates otherwise, seems this is the first time I've seen in a while that lots of Lakers fans were surprised and even disappointed. I can only go off of my friends who are Lakers fans and LG, and from that anecdotal sample (and I'm not saying it's definitive by any means) it was certainly a shock. Regardless, done deal, I have nothing more to say about it. Certain folks, namely my stalker Chronicle  , seem to want to dig it up more than I do.
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | We definitely agree on that. The bad thing for the players is that by subsidizing the owners beyond the CBA (Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Duncan, Dirk), it will likely weaken their negotiations with the next CBA. |
To be fair, Lebron/Bosh both got max deals after taking slight paycuts in Miami.
Unfortunately, I think a lockout is going to happen. Owners have also "hurt" their position with the record-prices for franchises. So both sides may have intractable positions. Owners have deeper pockets and like clockwork, players will relent. |
I too think there will be a lockout. If the players were smart they would have forced the owners to create a lockout fund during the last CBA negotiations. I just wonder who will opt out this time (I believe either side can?).
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activeverb
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Chronicle wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Not really. The owners have cleverly (whether this was intended or not) set up a system where superstar players have to take paycuts or be killed by the a small part of fan base. So you have guys like Dirk/Duncan taking massive paycuts. It's stinks for the players that the owners pocket the savings while unfairly pinning Star Player X as being "selfish." |
fixed.
Just because you are complaining all the time doesn't mean all of Laker fans are. In fact most casual laker fans (which is a much bigger number than the more passionate ones) don't even know/care about it at all. |
Probably should get your facts straight first, at least with respect to LG. Here's a sample poll:
http://forums.lakersground.net/togo/thread.php?topic_id=165471
301 votes, 163 (54%) were against Kobe's contract.
Listen, the very fact that someone like me (and for the record I still blame FO more than Kobe for it), who has not had any general critical feelings about Kobe was unhappy about the contract extension should mean something. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant. We are all Lakers fans. But as my comment stated, the owners have made it so that the player, not the FO, bears the brunt of the criticism. It shouldn't be Kobe taking the brunt of it, but the FO. As many rightfully pointed out, they offered it, and Kobe obliged. |
Kind of a nothing poll. Half of 300 people on a Lakers forum are negative about the contract. Big deal. That doesn't mean half those people are "killing" Kobe. For the most part, fans accept players will take as much as they can.
I doubt Kobe or other stars feel much pressure from the fan base about their salary; their pressure is internal, depending on how much they want to sacrifice to improve their odds of winning. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Chronicle wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Not really. The owners have cleverly (whether this was intended or not) set up a system where superstar players have to take paycuts or be killed by the a small part of fan base. So you have guys like Dirk/Duncan taking massive paycuts. It's stinks for the players that the owners pocket the savings while unfairly pinning Star Player X as being "selfish." |
fixed.
Just because you are complaining all the time doesn't mean all of Laker fans are. In fact most casual laker fans (which is a much bigger number than the more passionate ones) don't even know/care about it at all. |
Probably should get your facts straight first, at least with respect to LG. Here's a sample poll:
http://forums.lakersground.net/togo/thread.php?topic_id=165471
301 votes, 163 (54%) were against Kobe's contract.
Listen, the very fact that someone like me (and for the record I still blame FO more than Kobe for it), who has not had any general critical feelings about Kobe was unhappy about the contract extension should mean something. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant. We are all Lakers fans. But as my comment stated, the owners have made it so that the player, not the FO, bears the brunt of the criticism. It shouldn't be Kobe taking the brunt of it, but the FO. As many rightfully pointed out, they offered it, and Kobe obliged. |
Kind of a nothing poll. Half of 300 people on a Lakers forum are negative about the contract. Big deal. That doesn't mean half those people are "killing" Kobe. For the most part, fans accept players will take as much as they can.
I doubt Kobe or other stars feel much pressure from the fan base about their salary; their pressure is internal, depending on how much they want to sacrifice to improve their odds of winning. |
I see folks are playing on semantics here. The word "killing" was poorly chosen, so I concede that. But over half (at least on LG) were disappointed in the contract. Oh well.
Don't know why people are focusing on Kobe (I didn't bring him up) when we are all agreing on the bigger picture here. Owners have benefitted from players doing their bidding re: contracts. Kobe chose not to do so (compared to other stars his age). It is what it is.
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Vancouver Fan
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | Kobe Bryant: "I think, you know it's interesting to me, to hear people put the proverbial nail in the coffin. Do you think I'd hang around and average 19 points, 18 points, and stuff like that? .....HELL no!" |
We may see this put to the test. If he comes out diminished, would he really walk the walk and leave the money behind? |
he won't average 18 points. He'll avg between 23-26 a game in scoring as usual. I'll throw dollars on that.
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | We definitely agree on that. The bad thing for the players is that by subsidizing the owners beyond the CBA (Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Duncan, Dirk), it will likely weaken their negotiations with the next CBA. |
To be fair, Lebron/Bosh both got max deals after taking slight paycuts in Miami.
Unfortunately, I think a lockout is going to happen. Owners have also "hurt" their position with the record-prices for franchises. So both sides may have intractable positions. Owners have deeper pockets and like clockwork, players will relent. |
Bear in mind that the size of their max deals was based on their last season's salary, so the gift is still giving...
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activeverb
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: |
I see folks are playing on semantics here. The word "killing" was poorly chosen, so I concede that. But over half (at least on LG) were disappointed in the contract. Oh well. |
Again, so what? It was a mildly worded poll -- saying you are "disappointed" in Kobe's contract doesn't mean you are upset at Kobe at all. In terms of your point of this showing that stars are pressured to take pay cuts, I think it provides no support for your position at all.
| yinoma2001 wrote: |
Don't know why people are focusing on Kobe (I didn't bring him up) when we are all agreing on the bigger picture here. Owners have benefitted from players doing their bidding re: contracts. Kobe chose not to do so (compared to other stars his age). It is what it is. |
"Other stars his age?" Only two guys I know of is Tim and Dirk, and that's hardly a trend. It just reflects the personality of two guys and personal relationship these two guys have with their team and the owner of their team. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | We definitely agree on that. The bad thing for the players is that by subsidizing the owners beyond the CBA (Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Duncan, Dirk), it will likely weaken their negotiations with the next CBA. |
You have it wrong. These guys aren't "subsidizing" the owners. The owners pay the exact same amount in salaries (a percentage of revenues) regardless of how it's divided up. If Lebron or Dirk makes less that means another player has to make more so the total player salaries come up to 52% or whatever it is now.
Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Duncan and Dirk are actually subsidizing other players. |
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deal
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| chrisca91 wrote: | | I think kobe will play past his 2 years tbh. He couldn't sign a longer deal cuz of the over 36 rule or w/e right? |
The long he stays at a high price, the longer the lakers will suck...
Let's hope he has a good two seasons and rides off into the sunset... |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | We definitely agree on that. The bad thing for the players is that by subsidizing the owners beyond the CBA (Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Duncan, Dirk), it will likely weaken their negotiations with the next CBA. |
You have it wrong. These guys aren't "subsidizing" the owners. The owners pay the exact same amount in salaries (a percentage of revenues) regardless of how it's divided up. If Lebron or Dirk makes less that means another player has to make more so the total player salaries come up to 52% or whatever it is now.
Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Duncan and Dirk are actually subsidizing other players. |
If the owners paid them what they should be paid, some will then have to pay luxury tax to keep other guys on their teams. So they are paying less due to the players keeping them out of the luxury tax.
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activeverb
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | We definitely agree on that. The bad thing for the players is that by subsidizing the owners beyond the CBA (Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Duncan, Dirk), it will likely weaken their negotiations with the next CBA. |
You have it wrong. These guys aren't "subsidizing" the owners. The owners pay the exact same amount in salaries (a percentage of revenues) regardless of how it's divided up. If Lebron or Dirk makes less that means another player has to make more so the total player salaries come up to 52% or whatever it is now.
Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Duncan and Dirk are actually subsidizing other players. |
If the owners paid them what they should be paid, some will then have to pay luxury tax to keep other guys on their teams. So they are paying less due to the players keeping them out of the luxury tax. |
You're missing the point. Sure, some individual owners would do a little better some years, and some would do a little worse. But overall the owners would do the same, and the players overall would do the same.
The main beneficiaries of stars taking less is other players, because the pie never changes. Only thing that changes is how it's sliced. If a star takes a smaller slice, another player gets a bigger slice. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 4:16 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: |
I see folks are playing on semantics here. The word "killing" was poorly chosen, so I concede that. But over half (at least on LG) were disappointed in the contract. Oh well. |
Again, so what? It was a mildly worded poll -- saying you are "disappointed" in Kobe's contract doesn't mean you are upset at Kobe at all. In terms of your point of this showing that stars are pressured to take pay cuts, I think it provides no support for your position at all.
| yinoma2001 wrote: |
Don't know why people are focusing on Kobe (I didn't bring him up) when we are all agreing on the bigger picture here. Owners have benefitted from players doing their bidding re: contracts. Kobe chose not to do so (compared to other stars his age). It is what it is. |
"Other stars his age?" Only two guys I know of is Tim and Dirk, and that's hardly a trend. It just reflects the personality of two guys and personal relationship these two guys have with their team and the owner of their team. |
Re: Duncan and Dirk, that's my point. How many HOF players past 35 (who just happened to have 2 major injuries in one calendar year) have sought the highest salary for 2 years? None. And you're right, it is a reflection of their personalities.
I've purposefully tried not talking about Kobe's contract, but people keep pulling me ("just when I thought I was out...they pull me back in..."). I'll leave it as it is. I just commented that there were people that were not pleased with the extension, and you may be right that the majority of Lakers fans are oblivious to it. I can only speak to a poll here on LG, my own circle of friends. Regardless, I've said enough about the topic and will hope and root for Kobe to succeed.
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governator
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 4:34 am Post subject: |
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The 2 year plans:
Year 1... Kobe pass Jordan in all time scoring
Year 2... Kobe pass Malone in all time scoring |
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70sdude
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:38 am Post subject: |
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Well, the journey is "at best case" half over, in terms of the ride through Kobe's golden years.
The recent stretch of the past four seasons contained three back-to-back two-year rebuilding plans. We get a sense for what that period says about the steering committee's abilities to plan and execute their vision.
The results feel as though we are positioned worse off than at any time in forty years, in terms of showing incremental improvements in record or talent re-accumulation.
It's clear that (at least) half of Kobe's golden years (ages 33, 34, 35) are in the club's rear-view mirror without his having had much impact on the trip, sadly. In terms of how much one realistically may anticipate from him from here, even if he plays through ages 36, 37, and 38, I'm losing faith in the big efficacies: Kobe's usefulness as an attraction for a freshened nucleus, his attractiveness as a viewer's bridge to the next Laker era, and the whole of Laker management's vision, values, strategy and tactics for the club. |
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