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Steve007
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Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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 Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | | A Mad Chinaman wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | There is something that bothers me about this thread (besides the extra attention on the Clippers). I feel that Kobe is done winning titles and while the 16/17 titles is fantastic, those titles were won when the team had superstars. Magic and Kobe combined won more than half of those titles. But who is going to be the next Magic/Kobe/West/Kareem/Shaq/etc. for this team?
It could be a while before we see that type of player in LA again unless Durant leaves the Thunder for the Lakers. |
At least the Lakers have this problem
At least the Lakers have had the answers in the past |
Sure, but that was under different ownership. In the 90's I had hope because Jerry Buss and Jerry West were running things. I like Mitch but I'm not a fan of the Buss that owns the team now. |
And in the 2000's we had Jerry, Jim and MItch running things. West took the team from the lottery to a title, as did Mitch. |
I think that's a horrible example because Kobe was in his prime. It's much easier to win with a player like that. And the team didn't get Kobe because of Jim Buss. Hiring Mike D'Antoni has made this team worse than ever. |
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Steve007
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Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Clips are ready to make a push for WCF and Finals. They have core pieces under age of 30, and just added Farmar and Hawes.
Lakers are going to have to ride out Kobe's retirement. Rebuilding won't truly happen until then. But the team has built enough equity with its fanbase that we can withstand a few less than stellar years while we watch Kobe go off into the sunset.
We'll probably be looking at 2016 (at the earliest) and likely 2017 before we are rebuilding. |
The Clippers once again failed to fix their biggest playoff weakness, someone who can step up in the clutch. I would be surprised to see a visit to the WCFs, and shocked to see them in the Finals. But you never know, injuries are the great equalizer. I just don't see them as a top 2 team in the West. |
No their biggest weakness is on the wings, especially defensively. Players like Dudley, Reddick, and Crawford are horrible defenders. All they have is Matt Barnes. Players on the wings for the elite teams were killing them last year. This is why they are not as talented as people think. They need to upgrade that defense because they were unable to get stops in the clutch. |
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japanesebeef1
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Joined: 11 Jul 2005
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Location: Colton, CA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| kray28_ wrote: | So no rogue scholars have figured out that "overthrone" is actually not a word?
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japanesebeef1 wrote:
Your premise is faulty. 17-0
Let me elaborate.
There is no word "overthrone".
If there were such a word, it would require that the team being overthrone have at one time sat on a throne from which they could be OVERTHROWN!!!!
So first: The Clippers have never been enthroned!
Second: The Clippers do not actually play in Los Angeles. They play north of their hometown San Diego. Clipper fans are a collection of Southern California basketball addicted immigrants from towns with failed franchises who simply cheer the Clippers as an alternant to the sadness of their home team and in opposition to the glory of the franchise that truly holds the hearts of all true Angelenos - the Lakers. Examples would include Billy Crystal (NY Knicks) and . . . oops I guess thats it.
Third: Only people cheering for teams like the Clippers consider a seasons record in evaluating how a team is better or worse. When you are a Laker fan, only championships count in evaluating the team. Most other teams consider 57 wins to be a better team than 27. For Lakers, it is the same record - a non championship team.
Last edited by japanesebeef1 on Sun Aug 24, 2014 6:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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japanesebeef1
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Location: Colton, CA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| japanesebeef1 wrote: | | japanesebeef1 wrote: | | Your premise is faulty. 17-0 |
Let me elaborate.
There is no word "overthrone".
If there were such a word, it would require that the team being overthrone have at one time sat on a throne from which they could be OVERTHROWN!!!!
So first: The Clippers have never been enthroned!
Second: The Clippers do not actually play in Los Angeles. They play north of their hometown San Diego. Clipper fans are a collection of Southern California basketball addicted immigrants from towns with failed franchises who simply cheer the Clippers as an alternant to the sadness of their home team and in opposition to the glory of the franchise that truly holds the hearts of all true Angelenos - the Lakers. Examples would include Billy Crystal (NY Knicks) and . . . oops I guess thats it.
Third: Only people cheering for teams like the Clippers consider a seasons record in evaluating how a team is better or worse. When you are a Laker fan, only championships count in evaluating the team. Most other teams consider 57 wins to be a better team than 27. For Lakers, it is the same record - a non championship team. |
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NomisR
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Steve007 wrote: |
The last time we thought this team had a shot at a title, ownership picked Mike D'Antoni over Phil Jackson. That makes me more pessimistic about the future.
And I think it's sad that there are two threads talking about the Clippers here. Maybe that shows how far we've fallen. Giving the Clippers this much attention makes them seem more relevant IMO. |
So you're one of those that falls for the BSPN's narrative of Jim Buss's ego even after Phil Jackson that came out and said otherwise.
But hey, it's Jim Buss's fault because it sounds good, even if reality and facts shows that it's not really his fault. But hey, JIM BUSS'S EGO PREVENTS JIM FROM HIRING PHIL JACKSON!!!!!! |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Steve007 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | | A Mad Chinaman wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | There is something that bothers me about this thread (besides the extra attention on the Clippers). I feel that Kobe is done winning titles and while the 16/17 titles is fantastic, those titles were won when the team had superstars. Magic and Kobe combined won more than half of those titles. But who is going to be the next Magic/Kobe/West/Kareem/Shaq/etc. for this team?
It could be a while before we see that type of player in LA again unless Durant leaves the Thunder for the Lakers. |
At least the Lakers have this problem
At least the Lakers have had the answers in the past |
Sure, but that was under different ownership. In the 90's I had hope because Jerry Buss and Jerry West were running things. I like Mitch but I'm not a fan of the Buss that owns the team now. |
And in the 2000's we had Jerry, Jim and MItch running things. West took the team from the lottery to a title, as did Mitch. |
I think that's a horrible example because Kobe was in his prime. It's much easier to win with a player like that. And the team didn't get Kobe because of Jim Buss. Hiring Mike D'Antoni has made this team worse than ever. |
So you choose to throw out the reasons that they won titles and then complain that things are horrible? Interesting logic. If we choose to look at real facts, West grabbed Jones in the lottery and in a couple of seasons had a contender that won a title in another 4 seasons. That is why West deserves the praise he gets. Mitch and Jim as GM and player personnel director grabbed Bynum in the lottery and had a contender in 2 seasons and a title in 3. As you mentioned, Kobe was the reason it happened quicker than it did for West. But they both rebuilt teams that won titles. You can say that is different all you want (it is more difficult for Mitch due to the CBA), but both West and Mitch have had great success. And Mitch is still here last I looked.
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Steve007
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| NomisR wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: |
The last time we thought this team had a shot at a title, ownership picked Mike D'Antoni over Phil Jackson. That makes me more pessimistic about the future.
And I think it's sad that there are two threads talking about the Clippers here. Maybe that shows how far we've fallen. Giving the Clippers this much attention makes them seem more relevant IMO. |
So you're one of those that falls for the BSPN's narrative of Jim Buss's ego even after Phil Jackson that came out and said otherwise.
But hey, it's Jim Buss's fault because it sounds good, even if reality and facts shows that it's not really his fault. But hey, JIM BUSS'S EGO PREVENTS JIM FROM HIRING PHIL JACKSON!!!!!! |
Where did I say anything about ESPN? The fact is that I trusted Jerry Buss as an owner. Jim Buss hasn't done nearly as much to earn the trust of the fans as his father. Hopefully that will change with time. |
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Steve007
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | | A Mad Chinaman wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | There is something that bothers me about this thread (besides the extra attention on the Clippers). I feel that Kobe is done winning titles and while the 16/17 titles is fantastic, those titles were won when the team had superstars. Magic and Kobe combined won more than half of those titles. But who is going to be the next Magic/Kobe/West/Kareem/Shaq/etc. for this team?
It could be a while before we see that type of player in LA again unless Durant leaves the Thunder for the Lakers. |
At least the Lakers have this problem
At least the Lakers have had the answers in the past |
Sure, but that was under different ownership. In the 90's I had hope because Jerry Buss and Jerry West were running things. I like Mitch but I'm not a fan of the Buss that owns the team now. |
And in the 2000's we had Jerry, Jim and MItch running things. West took the team from the lottery to a title, as did Mitch. |
I think that's a horrible example because Kobe was in his prime. It's much easier to win with a player like that. And the team didn't get Kobe because of Jim Buss. Hiring Mike D'Antoni has made this team worse than ever. |
So you choose to throw out the reasons that they won titles and then complain that things are horrible? Interesting logic. If we choose to look at real facts, West grabbed Jones in the lottery and in a couple of seasons had a contender that won a title in another 4 seasons. That is why West deserves the praise he gets. Mitch and Jim as GM and player personnel director grabbed Bynum in the lottery and had a contender in 2 seasons and a title in 3. As you mentioned, Kobe was the reason it happened quicker than it did for West. But they both rebuilt teams that won titles. You can say that is different all you want (it is more difficult for Mitch due to the CBA), but both West and Mitch have had great success. And Mitch is still here last I looked. |
I'm okay with Mitch. He put enough talent around Kobe to win. My biggest concern is about how long it will take to find the next Magic/Kobe. Even for Jerry West, that would be a major challenge. The Lakers are a very attractive place to play which does make things easier, but it's much harder to win titles if your team needs to beat the next Magic\Kobe in the playoffs to win it all. |
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NomisR
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Steve007 wrote: | | NomisR wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: |
The last time we thought this team had a shot at a title, ownership picked Mike D'Antoni over Phil Jackson. That makes me more pessimistic about the future.
And I think it's sad that there are two threads talking about the Clippers here. Maybe that shows how far we've fallen. Giving the Clippers this much attention makes them seem more relevant IMO. |
So you're one of those that falls for the BSPN's narrative of Jim Buss's ego even after Phil Jackson that came out and said otherwise.
But hey, it's Jim Buss's fault because it sounds good, even if reality and facts shows that it's not really his fault. But hey, JIM BUSS'S EGO PREVENTS JIM FROM HIRING PHIL JACKSON!!!!!! |
Where did I say anything about ESPN? The fact is that I trusted Jerry Buss as an owner. Jim Buss hasn't done nearly as much to earn the trust of the fans as his father. Hopefully that will change with time. |
Well, if you actually understand the situation, Jim was the one that wanted Phil to come back the 2nd time, and he asked Jeanie if he could talk to Phil to see if he wanted to come back a 3rd time. So to say that Jim chose D'Antoni over Phil is basically going by the media narrative rather than actually what happen according to even Phil himself. And that was after Phil became the Knicks president which means he had no reason to not make the Lakers FO look bad. |
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NomisR
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Steve007 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | | A Mad Chinaman wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | There is something that bothers me about this thread (besides the extra attention on the Clippers). I feel that Kobe is done winning titles and while the 16/17 titles is fantastic, those titles were won when the team had superstars. Magic and Kobe combined won more than half of those titles. But who is going to be the next Magic/Kobe/West/Kareem/Shaq/etc. for this team?
It could be a while before we see that type of player in LA again unless Durant leaves the Thunder for the Lakers. |
At least the Lakers have this problem
At least the Lakers have had the answers in the past |
Sure, but that was under different ownership. In the 90's I had hope because Jerry Buss and Jerry West were running things. I like Mitch but I'm not a fan of the Buss that owns the team now. |
And in the 2000's we had Jerry, Jim and MItch running things. West took the team from the lottery to a title, as did Mitch. |
I think that's a horrible example because Kobe was in his prime. It's much easier to win with a player like that. And the team didn't get Kobe because of Jim Buss. Hiring Mike D'Antoni has made this team worse than ever. |
So you choose to throw out the reasons that they won titles and then complain that things are horrible? Interesting logic. If we choose to look at real facts, West grabbed Jones in the lottery and in a couple of seasons had a contender that won a title in another 4 seasons. That is why West deserves the praise he gets. Mitch and Jim as GM and player personnel director grabbed Bynum in the lottery and had a contender in 2 seasons and a title in 3. As you mentioned, Kobe was the reason it happened quicker than it did for West. But they both rebuilt teams that won titles. You can say that is different all you want (it is more difficult for Mitch due to the CBA), but both West and Mitch have had great success. And Mitch is still here last I looked. |
I'm okay with Mitch. He put enough talent around Kobe to win. My biggest concern is about how long it will take to find the next Magic/Kobe. Even for Jerry West, that would be a major challenge. The Lakers are a very attractive place to play which does make things easier, but it's much harder to win titles if your team needs to beat the next Magic\Kobe in the playoffs to win it all. |
I hope Mychal makes his son comes back home to play for his team. |
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AncientMariner
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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Did you mean overthrow or dethrone?
Overthrone is not a word. In fact, my browser is telling me it isn't a word (spellcheck).
I can't remember when the Clips passed us as the best team. Because they had a better record for two years? They could do that for 5 more years and LA will still be a Lakers town. Always.
Angels and Clips need to take a hike. |
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Steve007
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Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 13221
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| AncientMariner wrote: | Did you mean overthrow or dethrone?
Overthrone is not a word. In fact, my browser is telling me it isn't a word (spellcheck).
I can't remember when the Clips passed us as the best team. Because they had a better record for two years? They could do that for 5 more years and LA will still be a Lakers town. Always.
Angels and Clips need to take a hike. |
Comparing the Angels to the Clippers? The Angels have won a championship. |
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EddieJonesss
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Location: 32 miles from the Staples Center
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Lakers#1Team wrote: | | EddieJonesss wrote: | | Lakers#1Team wrote: | | 17-0 is fine by me. Lakers won one championship in the NBL the year before the NBA merger. 17 championships (16 in the NBA). |
Didn't know that!
Unfortunately, can't really bring this up as an argument against having as many championships as the Celtics, can we?  |
Yeah, but who cares about them. The Lakers franchise and our championship legacy started outside the NBA and we proceeded to dominate the NBA coming in.
So doesn't that make us bigger than the NBA?  |
I was never really good at thinking outside the box, but that makes sense to me!  |
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THE_TWELFTH
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Joined: 30 Oct 2007
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Location: Los Angeles, CA.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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It's crazy... Transfer everyone on the Clippers to the Lakers minus Chris Paul, and would there be any doubt the Lakers would be the favorites for the title? What does that really say about Chris Paul?
_________________
Blood, sweat, tears,
We dripped all three just to get here.
No longer will I wake up and my dreams just vanished.
It’s staring right at me, I must take advantage.
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Steve007
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Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 13221
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| NomisR wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | | NomisR wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: |
The last time we thought this team had a shot at a title, ownership picked Mike D'Antoni over Phil Jackson. That makes me more pessimistic about the future.
And I think it's sad that there are two threads talking about the Clippers here. Maybe that shows how far we've fallen. Giving the Clippers this much attention makes them seem more relevant IMO. |
So you're one of those that falls for the BSPN's narrative of Jim Buss's ego even after Phil Jackson that came out and said otherwise.
But hey, it's Jim Buss's fault because it sounds good, even if reality and facts shows that it's not really his fault. But hey, JIM BUSS'S EGO PREVENTS JIM FROM HIRING PHIL JACKSON!!!!!! |
Where did I say anything about ESPN? The fact is that I trusted Jerry Buss as an owner. Jim Buss hasn't done nearly as much to earn the trust of the fans as his father. Hopefully that will change with time. |
Well, if you actually understand the situation, Jim was the one that wanted Phil to come back the 2nd time, and he asked Jeanie if he could talk to Phil to see if he wanted to come back a 3rd time. So to say that Jim chose D'Antoni over Phil is basically going by the media narrative rather than actually what happen according to even Phil himself. And that was after Phil became the Knicks president which means he had no reason to not make the Lakers FO look bad. |
That makes no sense. Phil wanted a couple of days to think it over. It they wanted him, they would have waited for his answer. Instead, they hired D'Antoni before they even got an answer from Phil.
Hiring D'Antoni tells me they didn't want Phil. They wanted D'Antoni. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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^ Phil also wanted control over player personnel and didn't want to travel for road games.
It's been fairly well documented that Phil sought to embarass Jim Buss more than consider a head coaching job in earnest. |
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Steve007
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Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| THE_TWELFTH wrote: | | It's crazy... Transfer everyone on the Clippers to the Lakers minus Chris Paul, and would there be any doubt the Lakers would be the favorites for the title? What does that really say about Chris Paul? |
Huh? Besides Blake who else is special on that team? I'd pick the Spurs, OKC and even Cleveland over that team easily. |
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Steve007
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | ^ Phil also wanted control over player personnel and didn't want to travel for road games.
It's been fairly well documented that Phil sought to embarass Jim Buss more than consider a head coaching job in earnest. |
I don't think those are unreasonable things to ask for. Don't give him time to think about it if those seem unreasonable. Just be honest with him.
| Quote: | | It's been fairly well documented that Phil sought to embarass Jim Buss more than consider a head coaching job in earnest |
I find that hard to believe. It sounds like pretty wild speculation to me. And one could also speculate the other way that Jim tried to embarrass Phil. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Steve007 wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | ^ Phil also wanted control over player personnel and didn't want to travel for road games.
It's been fairly well documented that Phil sought to embarass Jim Buss more than consider a head coaching job in earnest. |
I don't think those are unreasonable things to ask for. Don't give him time to think about it if those seem unreasonable. Just be honest with him. |
We already have someone in charge of player personnel. I'm pretty sure it is important to have a coach around for half the games. Phil was just trying to see how much he could get from the Lakers.
| Steve007 wrote: | | Quote: | | It's been fairly well documented that Phil sought to embarass Jim Buss more than consider a head coaching job in earnest |
I find that hard to believe. It sounds like pretty wild speculation to me. And one could also speculate the other way that Jim tried to embarrass Phil. |
Well, I guess that depends on how reliable a source you believe Adrian Wojnarowski is. I consider him to be a very reliable source. Do you? Let me know and I'll provide a link. |
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Goldenwest
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Posts: 2801
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | ^ Phil also wanted control over player personnel and didn't want to travel for road games.
It's been fairly well documented that Phil sought to embarass Jim Buss more than consider a head coaching job in earnest. |
[/quote]
Please, your Phil hate is showing. Wojnarowski doesn't state this as fact. He's repeating pure speculations. Rambis, Musburger, as well as others have said these things were never discussed in the meetings with the Lakers. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Goldenwest wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | ^ Phil also wanted control over player personnel and didn't want to travel for road games.
It's been fairly well documented that Phil sought to embarass Jim Buss more than consider a head coaching job in earnest. |
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Please, your Phil hate is showing. Wojnarowski doesn't state this as fact. He's repeating pure speculations. Rambis, Musburger, as well as others have said these things were never discussed in the meetings with the Lakers.[/quote]
Phil hate? Cmon, grow up. I would have loved Phil here.
This is what it said in the article written by Woj who IMO has some of the most reliable sources in media.
| Quote: | | Jackson wanted to humiliate Lakers vice president Jim Buss far more than he wanted to coach the team. |
| Quote: | | Now, the Lakers are going out of their way to spare Jackson the embarrassment of his overreaching, but this is pointless spin. They're working with him to sell the public that he hadn't asked for too much, that somehow the franchise chose D'Antoni over Jackson on sheer merit. It's noble, but laughable. |
Most of the stuff I have read suggested that he had some very steep demands in terms of desired salary, personnel control, and travel restrictions.
In Woj I trust. If you find him unreliable, good for you! |
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Goldenwest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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ringfinder:
He (Woj) is presenting it as rumor and speculation. Your presenting it here as fact, which I'm calling you out on. Jim Buss ran the show, he had the right to choose whoever he wanted, that's fine. But its no reason make Phil look bad by presenting as truth something that is flat out denied by many and just brought up as speculation in a Woj article. |
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Treble Clef
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Joined: 20 Nov 2012
Posts: 23899
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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When Phil is questioned about those demands, he never denies having them, he just sidesteps the question and says that they never negotiated terms.
It's pretty safe to say those rumors didnt come out of nowhere. If they did, it would have made much more sense to deny them outright. |
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Treble Clef
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Joined: 20 Nov 2012
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't understand this 16-0 talk. Has anyone ever said the clippers were the more successful franchise? They just have the better team right now. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Goldenwest wrote: | ringfinder:
He (Woj) is presenting it as rumor and speculation. Your presenting it here as fact, which I'm calling you out on. Jim Buss ran the show, he had the right to choose whoever he wanted, that's fine. But its no reason make Phil look bad by presenting as truth something that is flat out denied by many and just brought up as speculation in a Woj article. |
I'm not presenting anything as fact. Well, I suppose I am presenting as fact that Woj is presenting his version of what went down as fact. At no point in the article does he state that he is presenting it as rumor or that it is speculative in nature.
Here's the article. What about it makes you feel he is presenting it as rumor and speculation? It reads like his opinion to me.
Here's another excerpt too:
| Quote: | | If Jackson was ever to return to coaching to chase a championship in a preferred locale, this job offered him the opportunity. His instincts were wrong on how to play these negotiations and it blew up on him. |
Rumor? Speculation? Again, reads like opinion to me.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--lakers-resist-phil-jackson-s-power-grab-11051709.html
That's not to say Woj can't be wrong, I'm just saying, I trust Woj and his sources. |
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