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Goldenwest
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 Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Treble Clef wrote: | When Phil is questioned about those demands, he never denies having them, he just sidesteps the question and says that they never negotiated terms.
It's pretty safe to say those rumors didnt come out of nowhere. If they did, it would have made much more sense to deny them outright. |
Rambis and Musburger said those demands were never made. Maybe Phil tried to give Jim the Jedi stare..  I don't know. Jim just didn't want him, I would leave it at that. We'll never know exactly what happened in that meeting. But that other stuff being presented as truth seems like slander and an attack on Phil to me. |
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AncientMariner
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Steve007 wrote: | | AncientMariner wrote: | Did you mean overthrow or dethrone?
Overthrone is not a word. In fact, my browser is telling me it isn't a word (spellcheck).
I can't remember when the Clips passed us as the best team. Because they had a better record for two years? They could do that for 5 more years and LA will still be a Lakers town. Always.
Angels and Clips need to take a hike. |
Comparing the Angels to the Clippers? The Angels have won a championship. |
Not sure where you are reading a comparison of those two teams.
LA will always be a Dodgers and Lakers town. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Goldenwest wrote: | | Treble Clef wrote: | When Phil is questioned about those demands, he never denies having them, he just sidesteps the question and says that they never negotiated terms.
It's pretty safe to say those rumors didnt come out of nowhere. If they did, it would have made much more sense to deny them outright. |
Rambis and Musburger said those demands were never made. Maybe Phil tried to give Jim the Jedi stare.. I don't know. Jim just didn't want him, I would leave it at that. We'll never know exactly what happened in that meeting. But that other stuff being presented as truth seems like slander and an attack on Phil to me. |
Rambis and Mursburger? Really? That's one of his close friends and his agent -- of course they're going to say that come on! Hahaha.
Just curious, why do you say slander and attack? I think someone doesn't really know Phil Jackson's background.
This wouldn't be the first time he went toe-to-toe with management. In fact, it sounds completely like something Phil would do. His ego is that big. (Though, justifiably so given his resume). |
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Goldenwest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | Goldenwest wrote: | ringfinder:
He (Woj) is presenting it as rumor and speculation. Your presenting it here as fact, which I'm calling you out on. Jim Buss ran the show, he had the right to choose whoever he wanted, that's fine. But its no reason make Phil look bad by presenting as truth something that is flat out denied by many and just brought up as speculation in a Woj article. |
I'm not presenting anything as fact. Well, I suppose I am presenting as fact that Woj is presenting his version of what went down as fact. At no point in the article does he state that he is presenting it as rumor or that it is speculative in nature.
Here's the article. What about it makes you feel he is presenting it as rumor and speculation? It reads like his opinion to me.
Here's another excerpt too:
| Quote: | | If Jackson was ever to return to coaching to chase a championship in a preferred locale, this job offered him the opportunity. His instincts were wrong on how to play these negotiations and it blew up on him. |
Rumor? Speculation? Again, reads like opinion to me.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--lakers-resist-phil-jackson-s-power-grab-11051709.html
That's not to say Woj can't be wrong, I'm just saying, I trust Woj and his sources. |
The source doesn't say Phil made those demands. Its an opinion article by Woj all right. Its a very sensationalist anti-Phil piece. I certainly wouldn't take it as truth. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Goldenwest wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | Goldenwest wrote: | ringfinder:
He (Woj) is presenting it as rumor and speculation. Your presenting it here as fact, which I'm calling you out on. Jim Buss ran the show, he had the right to choose whoever he wanted, that's fine. But its no reason make Phil look bad by presenting as truth something that is flat out denied by many and just brought up as speculation in a Woj article. |
I'm not presenting anything as fact. Well, I suppose I am presenting as fact that Woj is presenting his version of what went down as fact. At no point in the article does he state that he is presenting it as rumor or that it is speculative in nature.
Here's the article. What about it makes you feel he is presenting it as rumor and speculation? It reads like his opinion to me.
Here's another excerpt too:
| Quote: | | If Jackson was ever to return to coaching to chase a championship in a preferred locale, this job offered him the opportunity. His instincts were wrong on how to play these negotiations and it blew up on him. |
Rumor? Speculation? Again, reads like opinion to me.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--lakers-resist-phil-jackson-s-power-grab-11051709.html
That's not to say Woj can't be wrong, I'm just saying, I trust Woj and his sources. |
The source doesn't say Phil made those demands. Its an opinion article by Woj all right. Its a very sensationalist anti-Phil piece. I certainly wouldn't take it as truth. |
Yes, the source did. Did you even read the article?
| Quote: | | "Phil wanted Jim Buss to walk away with his tail between his legs," one source with knowledge of the discussions told Yahoo! Sports. "He thought he had time to still negotiate with them, and see how much they would give him." |
Woj is presenting the situation as fact, based on the information he received from his sources. I know Phil's agent and close friend say otherwise, but even if what Woj wrote was true, they'd say the same thing. I certainly wouldn't expect his agent to say yeah, we tried to mess with em and it didn't work. Would you?
Have you ever read a Woj piece that was sensationalized and anti-anybody in particular? I honestly haven't. Or maybe you're saying there's a first for everything and this is it? |
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Goldenwest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | Goldenwest wrote: | | Treble Clef wrote: | When Phil is questioned about those demands, he never denies having them, he just sidesteps the question and says that they never negotiated terms.
It's pretty safe to say those rumors didnt come out of nowhere. If they did, it would have made much more sense to deny them outright. |
Rambis and Musburger said those demands were never made. Maybe Phil tried to give Jim the Jedi stare.. I don't know. Jim just didn't want him, I would leave it at that. We'll never know exactly what happened in that meeting. But that other stuff being presented as truth seems like slander and an attack on Phil to me. |
Rambis and Mursburger? Really? That's one of his close friends and his agent -- of course they're going to say that come on! Hahaha.
Just curious, why do you say slander and attack? I think someone doesn't really know Phil Jackson's background.
This wouldn't be the first time he went toe-to-toe with management. In fact, it sounds completely like something Phil would do. His ego is that big. (Though, justifiably so given his resume). |
So what? they had direct knowledge of what went on. Your going to throw out what they say because it doesn't fit your argument? Woj has an opinion piece and you believe him, because you think you know Phil that well. What are you Phil's high school buddy or Jim's lawyer? |
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Goldenwest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | Goldenwest wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | Goldenwest wrote: | ringfinder:
He (Woj) is presenting it as rumor and speculation. Your presenting it here as fact, which I'm calling you out on. Jim Buss ran the show, he had the right to choose whoever he wanted, that's fine. But its no reason make Phil look bad by presenting as truth something that is flat out denied by many and just brought up as speculation in a Woj article. |
I'm not presenting anything as fact. Well, I suppose I am presenting as fact that Woj is presenting his version of what went down as fact. At no point in the article does he state that he is presenting it as rumor or that it is speculative in nature.
Here's the article. What about it makes you feel he is presenting it as rumor and speculation? It reads like his opinion to me.
Here's another excerpt too:
| Quote: | | If Jackson was ever to return to coaching to chase a championship in a preferred locale, this job offered him the opportunity. His instincts were wrong on how to play these negotiations and it blew up on him. |
Rumor? Speculation? Again, reads like opinion to me.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--lakers-resist-phil-jackson-s-power-grab-11051709.html
That's not to say Woj can't be wrong, I'm just saying, I trust Woj and his sources. |
The source doesn't say Phil made those demands. Its an opinion article by Woj all right. Its a very sensationalist anti-Phil piece. I certainly wouldn't take it as truth. |
Yes, the source did. Did you even read the article?
| Quote: | | "Phil wanted Jim Buss to walk away with his tail between his legs," one source with knowledge of the discussions told Yahoo! Sports. "He thought he had time to still negotiate with them, and see how much they would give him." |
Woj is presenting the situation as fact, based on the information he received from his sources. I know Phil's agent and close friend say otherwise, but even if what Woj wrote was true, they'd say the same thing. I certainly wouldn't expect his agent to say yeah, we tried to mess with em and it didn't work. Would you?
Have you ever read a Woj piece that was sensationalized and anti-anybody in particular? I honestly haven't. Or maybe you're saying there's a first for everything and this is it? |
Where's the word 'demand' 'taking road games off' in that quote? Do you seem them? There's no specific mention of those demands. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Goldenwest wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | Goldenwest wrote: | | Treble Clef wrote: | When Phil is questioned about those demands, he never denies having them, he just sidesteps the question and says that they never negotiated terms.
It's pretty safe to say those rumors didnt come out of nowhere. If they did, it would have made much more sense to deny them outright. |
Rambis and Musburger said those demands were never made. Maybe Phil tried to give Jim the Jedi stare.. I don't know. Jim just didn't want him, I would leave it at that. We'll never know exactly what happened in that meeting. But that other stuff being presented as truth seems like slander and an attack on Phil to me. |
Rambis and Mursburger? Really? That's one of his close friends and his agent -- of course they're going to say that come on! Hahaha.
Just curious, why do you say slander and attack? I think someone doesn't really know Phil Jackson's background.
This wouldn't be the first time he went toe-to-toe with management. In fact, it sounds completely like something Phil would do. His ego is that big. (Though, justifiably so given his resume). |
So what? they had direct knowledge of what went on. Your going to throw out what they say because it doesn't fit your argument? Woj has an opinion piece and you believe him, because you think you know Phil that well. What are you Phil's high school buddy or Jim's lawyer? |
I'm not throwing anything out. I'm just not ready to accept it as gospel since they have clear motivation to paint Phil in the most positive light possible. As i said in my other post, if Woj's picture of the events was true, these guys would say the same thing.
Just curious, agents always have a direct knowledge of what is going on with the players/people they manage. Do you believe everything they say? Let me know before I pull some agent quotes =)
I don't know Phil that well. If I knew him well, I wouldn't need to rely on an article by Woj now would I? Haha.
Are you aware Phil has had clashes with management pretty much wherever he's been? Yes or no? If not, that's fine, and that would actually explain a lot of things and I'd be happy to pass along some articles about it. It's nothing new at all, honestly. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Goldenwest wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | Goldenwest wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | Goldenwest wrote: | ringfinder:
He (Woj) is presenting it as rumor and speculation. Your presenting it here as fact, which I'm calling you out on. Jim Buss ran the show, he had the right to choose whoever he wanted, that's fine. But its no reason make Phil look bad by presenting as truth something that is flat out denied by many and just brought up as speculation in a Woj article. |
I'm not presenting anything as fact. Well, I suppose I am presenting as fact that Woj is presenting his version of what went down as fact. At no point in the article does he state that he is presenting it as rumor or that it is speculative in nature.
Here's the article. What about it makes you feel he is presenting it as rumor and speculation? It reads like his opinion to me.
Here's another excerpt too:
| Quote: | | If Jackson was ever to return to coaching to chase a championship in a preferred locale, this job offered him the opportunity. His instincts were wrong on how to play these negotiations and it blew up on him. |
Rumor? Speculation? Again, reads like opinion to me.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--lakers-resist-phil-jackson-s-power-grab-11051709.html
That's not to say Woj can't be wrong, I'm just saying, I trust Woj and his sources. |
The source doesn't say Phil made those demands. Its an opinion article by Woj all right. Its a very sensationalist anti-Phil piece. I certainly wouldn't take it as truth. |
Yes, the source did. Did you even read the article?
| Quote: | | "Phil wanted Jim Buss to walk away with his tail between his legs," one source with knowledge of the discussions told Yahoo! Sports. "He thought he had time to still negotiate with them, and see how much they would give him." |
Woj is presenting the situation as fact, based on the information he received from his sources. I know Phil's agent and close friend say otherwise, but even if what Woj wrote was true, they'd say the same thing. I certainly wouldn't expect his agent to say yeah, we tried to mess with em and it didn't work. Would you?
Have you ever read a Woj piece that was sensationalized and anti-anybody in particular? I honestly haven't. Or maybe you're saying there's a first for everything and this is it? |
Where's the word 'demand' 'taking road games off' in that quote? Do you seem them? There's no specific mention of those demands. |
No offense, but your reading skills are atrocious. You didn't even bother to read the article, did you? How many times do I have to pull out quotes of things you're saying isn't there? lol. I might as well have posted the whole article by now.
Paragraph 2 of the article. Sentence 3. Read it for Phil's sake!
| Quote: | | He wanted significant allowances on travel, coaching duties and an ability to veto player personnel moves that didn't fit his vision. With an unprecedented 11 coaching championships, Jackson had every right to make unprecedented demands. |
(Oh, and some other articles suggested Phil requested an ownership stake. But that is not in this article). |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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Should also add Ramona Shelbourne reported the same thing although she reported that Phil wanted an ownership stake in addition to a huge salary, travel restrictions and veto power on personnel decisions.
Maybe her and Woj were cooking up something at a Tin Foil Hat party together? |
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dont_be_a_wuss
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:19 am Post subject: |
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| Jeannie Buss said none of that is true. |
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Goldenwest
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Posts: 2801
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:35 am Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | Goldenwest wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | Goldenwest wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | Goldenwest wrote: | ringfinder:
He (Woj) is presenting it as rumor and speculation. Your presenting it here as fact, which I'm calling you out on. Jim Buss ran the show, he had the right to choose whoever he wanted, that's fine. But its no reason make Phil look bad by presenting as truth something that is flat out denied by many and just brought up as speculation in a Woj article. |
I'm not presenting anything as fact. Well, I suppose I am presenting as fact that Woj is presenting his version of what went down as fact. At no point in the article does he state that he is presenting it as rumor or that it is speculative in nature.
Here's the article. What about it makes you feel he is presenting it as rumor and speculation? It reads like his opinion to me.
Here's another excerpt too:
| Quote: | | If Jackson was ever to return to coaching to chase a championship in a preferred locale, this job offered him the opportunity. His instincts were wrong on how to play these negotiations and it blew up on him. |
Rumor? Speculation? Again, reads like opinion to me.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--lakers-resist-phil-jackson-s-power-grab-11051709.html
That's not to say Woj can't be wrong, I'm just saying, I trust Woj and his sources. |
The source doesn't say Phil made those demands. Its an opinion article by Woj all right. Its a very sensationalist anti-Phil piece. I certainly wouldn't take it as truth. |
Yes, the source did. Did you even read the article?
| Quote: | | "Phil wanted Jim Buss to walk away with his tail between his legs," one source with knowledge of the discussions told Yahoo! Sports. "He thought he had time to still negotiate with them, and see how much they would give him." |
Woj is presenting the situation as fact, based on the information he received from his sources. I know Phil's agent and close friend say otherwise, but even if what Woj wrote was true, they'd say the same thing. I certainly wouldn't expect his agent to say yeah, we tried to mess with em and it didn't work. Would you?
Have you ever read a Woj piece that was sensationalized and anti-anybody in particular? I honestly haven't. Or maybe you're saying there's a first for everything and this is it? |
Where's the word 'demand' 'taking road games off' in that quote? Do you seem them? There's no specific mention of those demands. |
No offense, but your reading skills are atrocious. You didn't even bother to read the article, did you? How many times do I have to pull out quotes of things you're saying isn't there? lol. I might as well have posted the whole article by now.
Paragraph 2 of the article. Sentence 3. Read it for Phil's sake!
| Quote: | | He wanted significant allowances on travel, coaching duties and an ability to veto player personnel moves that didn't fit his vision. With an unprecedented 11 coaching championships, Jackson had every right to make unprecedented demands. |
(Oh, and some other articles suggested Phil requested an ownership stake. But that is not in this article). |
I read your article. And the source didn't say Phil made those demands. Woj is just building his opinion. Your reading comprehension is clouded by your know it all 'hot air' attitude. Phil and Jim are not on the best of terms. Rumors and exaggerations get thrown around a lot in cases like this. Wake up dude. |
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NomisR
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| Steve007 wrote: | | NomisR wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | | NomisR wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: |
The last time we thought this team had a shot at a title, ownership picked Mike D'Antoni over Phil Jackson. That makes me more pessimistic about the future.
And I think it's sad that there are two threads talking about the Clippers here. Maybe that shows how far we've fallen. Giving the Clippers this much attention makes them seem more relevant IMO. |
So you're one of those that falls for the BSPN's narrative of Jim Buss's ego even after Phil Jackson that came out and said otherwise.
But hey, it's Jim Buss's fault because it sounds good, even if reality and facts shows that it's not really his fault. But hey, JIM BUSS'S EGO PREVENTS JIM FROM HIRING PHIL JACKSON!!!!!! |
Where did I say anything about ESPN? The fact is that I trusted Jerry Buss as an owner. Jim Buss hasn't done nearly as much to earn the trust of the fans as his father. Hopefully that will change with time. |
Well, if you actually understand the situation, Jim was the one that wanted Phil to come back the 2nd time, and he asked Jeanie if he could talk to Phil to see if he wanted to come back a 3rd time. So to say that Jim chose D'Antoni over Phil is basically going by the media narrative rather than actually what happen according to even Phil himself. And that was after Phil became the Knicks president which means he had no reason to not make the Lakers FO look bad. |
That makes no sense. Phil wanted a couple of days to think it over. It they wanted him, they would have waited for his answer. Instead, they hired D'Antoni before they even got an answer from Phil.
Hiring D'Antoni tells me they didn't want Phil. They wanted D'Antoni. |
Mitch got an answer from Phil before they even asked him the month prior, that was according to Phil's own updated book and there was report of it from Ramona Shelburne when this whole thing went down but rest of the media readily ignored because it wouldn't have made a good story. Phil said he didn't really want to come back to coaching.
And in his book, he said that he didn't really feel like coming back and if he did, it would've only been for a year. And in his subsequent interviews after his book tour, he said he probably wouldn't have accepted the job.
So all this, Jim hired over MDA is simply wrong since if they waited, it would've been at least an additional week before they had a coach or however long that they would've had to wait. And that was in the middle of the season, with an interim coach that was not liking the spotlight, and if Phil rejected the Lakers and we waited, the FO would've been slaughtered by the media for waiting. It's a no win situation.
I honestly didn't think it was such a big deal as the rest of the media and the fans, and I didn't really expect Phil to go all cryptic in his book tours that help fuel the media narratives. Yes, this is partly fueled by Phil by not actually answering the questions so he can sell his book. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| Goldenwest wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | ^ Phil also wanted control over player personnel and didn't want to travel for road games.
It's been fairly well documented that Phil sought to embarass Jim Buss more than consider a head coaching job in earnest. |
Please, your Phil hate is showing. Wojnarowski doesn't state this as fact. He's repeating pure speculations. Rambis, Musburger, as well as others have said these things were never discussed in the meetings with the Lakers. |
People who weren't at the meetings? See the disconnect there? Word from the Laker side was that Jim was convinced that Phil would be hired, but that Phil moving into the FO after that season was part of the deal. And Jim wasn't against that, he even offered Phil a consultant job after the season. Someone pulled the plug on the possibility of Phil working in the Laker FO, I think who that was is obvious.
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
Last edited by venturalakersfan on Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| Steve007 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | | A Mad Chinaman wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | There is something that bothers me about this thread (besides the extra attention on the Clippers). I feel that Kobe is done winning titles and while the 16/17 titles is fantastic, those titles were won when the team had superstars. Magic and Kobe combined won more than half of those titles. But who is going to be the next Magic/Kobe/West/Kareem/Shaq/etc. for this team?
It could be a while before we see that type of player in LA again unless Durant leaves the Thunder for the Lakers. |
At least the Lakers have this problem
At least the Lakers have had the answers in the past |
Sure, but that was under different ownership. In the 90's I had hope because Jerry Buss and Jerry West were running things. I like Mitch but I'm not a fan of the Buss that owns the team now. |
And in the 2000's we had Jerry, Jim and MItch running things. West took the team from the lottery to a title, as did Mitch. |
I think that's a horrible example because Kobe was in his prime. It's much easier to win with a player like that. And the team didn't get Kobe because of Jim Buss. Hiring Mike D'Antoni has made this team worse than ever. |
So you choose to throw out the reasons that they won titles and then complain that things are horrible? Interesting logic. If we choose to look at real facts, West grabbed Jones in the lottery and in a couple of seasons had a contender that won a title in another 4 seasons. That is why West deserves the praise he gets. Mitch and Jim as GM and player personnel director grabbed Bynum in the lottery and had a contender in 2 seasons and a title in 3. As you mentioned, Kobe was the reason it happened quicker than it did for West. But they both rebuilt teams that won titles. You can say that is different all you want (it is more difficult for Mitch due to the CBA), but both West and Mitch have had great success. And Mitch is still here last I looked. |
I'm okay with Mitch. He put enough talent around Kobe to win. My biggest concern is about how long it will take to find the next Magic/Kobe. Even for Jerry West, that would be a major challenge. The Lakers are a very attractive place to play which does make things easier, but it's much harder to win titles if your team needs to beat the next Magic\Kobe in the playoffs to win it all. |
That is the concern, who and when will we get that alpha male to lead the team forward. Maybe Randle, maybe not.
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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ppineda
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| Of course the Lakers will be better than the hapless Clippers. |
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Wilkes52
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:45 am Post subject: |
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"That is the concern, who and when will we get that alpha male to lead the team forward. Maybe Randle, maybe not."
There's something correct to that idea, but Randle is not that guy. He has the attitude perhaps but he only contended in college to be the alpha male on his own (KY) team, and similarly did so among the peers of his entire draft class. However, his "almost" aspect of dominance and perseverance typically does not convert to anything spectacular in the NBA, at least in terms of taking over play at critical moments.
No, I think he's lacking some physical speed and size to dominate play at his position at this level.
He appears to be a fine complementary player however, and the Lakers could sure use some more of those right now too. |
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NomisR
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:22 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: |
People who weren't at the meetings? See the disconnect there? Word from the Laker side was that Jim was convinced that Phil would be hired, but that Phil moving into the FO after that season was part of the deal. And Jim wasn't against that, he even offered Phil a consultant job after the season. Someone pulled the plug on the possibility of Phil working in the Laker FO, I think who that was is obvious. |
Do you have the article for this? I'm just curious since I haven't read it. But then again, I wouldn't be surprised that it wasn't reported much since this would go against the media's line of Jim is incompetent. |
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Steve007
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | ^ Phil also wanted control over player personnel and didn't want to travel for road games.
It's been fairly well documented that Phil sought to embarass Jim Buss more than consider a head coaching job in earnest. |
I don't think those are unreasonable things to ask for. Don't give him time to think about it if those seem unreasonable. Just be honest with him. |
We already have someone in charge of player personnel. I'm pretty sure it is important to have a coach around for half the games. Phil was just trying to see how much he could get from the Lakers.
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Or maybe Phil wanted to be more involved in moves involving player personnel because that stuff is a very big deal and can make the difference between success and failure. It wouldn't be the first time a coach has done that.
As for Phil missing road games, didn't he do some of that before? To me it sounds like he knows that he is an old guy that is concerned about his health and energy levels. Even a decade ago his age was showing. The last time he coached he was literally coaching at the same time he had cancer. I suspect that if he was about 20 years younger he would never make that request.
Finally, if he was just trying to see what he could get from the Lakers, isn't that often just part of negotiating? I'm not really seeing anything horrifying here at all from Phil.
| Quote: | | Steve007 wrote: | | Quote: | | It's been fairly well documented that Phil sought to embarass Jim Buss more than consider a head coaching job in earnest |
I find that hard to believe. It sounds like pretty wild speculation to me. And one could also speculate the other way that Jim tried to embarrass Phil. |
Well, I guess that depends on how reliable a source you believe Adrian Wojnarowski is. I consider him to be a very reliable source. Do you? Let me know and I'll provide a link |
Members of the media might be reliable on certain facts, but when they start speculating and using those facts to come up with their own opinions, they start to sound like Skip Bayless to me. I feel like they often try to make things more interesting than they really are. |
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Steve007
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | Goldenwest wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | ^ Phil also wanted control over player personnel and didn't want to travel for road games.
It's been fairly well documented that Phil sought to embarass Jim Buss more than consider a head coaching job in earnest.
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Please, your Phil hate is showing. Wojnarowski doesn't state this as fact. He's repeating pure speculations. Rambis, Musburger, as well as others have said these things were never discussed in the meetings with the Lakers. |
Phil hate? Cmon, grow up. I would have loved Phil here.
This is what it said in the article written by Woj who IMO has some of the most reliable sources in media.
| Quote: | | Jackson wanted to humiliate Lakers vice president Jim Buss far more than he wanted to coach the team. |
| Quote: | | Now, the Lakers are going out of their way to spare Jackson the embarrassment of his overreaching, but this is pointless spin. They're working with him to sell the public that he hadn't asked for too much, that somehow the franchise chose D'Antoni over Jackson on sheer merit. It's noble, but laughable. |
Most of the stuff I have read suggested that he had some very steep demands in terms of desired salary, personnel control, and travel restrictions.
In Woj I trust. If you find him unreliable, good for you! |
I didn't think his demands were that steep when the article actually mentioned them. I guess they just didn't want him badly enough. |
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Steve007
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Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | Goldenwest wrote: | ringfinder:
He (Woj) is presenting it as rumor and speculation. Your presenting it here as fact, which I'm calling you out on. Jim Buss ran the show, he had the right to choose whoever he wanted, that's fine. But its no reason make Phil look bad by presenting as truth something that is flat out denied by many and just brought up as speculation in a Woj article. |
I'm not presenting anything as fact. Well, I suppose I am presenting as fact that Woj is presenting his version of what went down as fact. At no point in the article does he state that he is presenting it as rumor or that it is speculative in nature.
Here's the article. What about it makes you feel he is presenting it as rumor and speculation? It reads like his opinion to me.
Here's another excerpt too:
| Quote: | | If Jackson was ever to return to coaching to chase a championship in a preferred locale, this job offered him the opportunity. His instincts were wrong on how to play these negotiations and it blew up on him. |
Rumor? Speculation? Again, reads like opinion to me.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--lakers-resist-phil-jackson-s-power-grab-11051709.html
That's not to say Woj can't be wrong, I'm just saying, I trust Woj and his sources. |
But sometimes when people offer opinions, it is speculation or is based on speculation. Honestly I have a low opinion of the article after reading it. It has more speculation than I thought it would and it sounds so bitter that I even wonder if the author has a grudge against Phil.
Also, to say that Phil wanted to humiliate someone is a serious charge. |
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Steve007
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Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 13221
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| NomisR wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | | NomisR wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | | NomisR wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: |
The last time we thought this team had a shot at a title, ownership picked Mike D'Antoni over Phil Jackson. That makes me more pessimistic about the future.
And I think it's sad that there are two threads talking about the Clippers here. Maybe that shows how far we've fallen. Giving the Clippers this much attention makes them seem more relevant IMO. |
So you're one of those that falls for the BSPN's narrative of Jim Buss's ego even after Phil Jackson that came out and said otherwise.
But hey, it's Jim Buss's fault because it sounds good, even if reality and facts shows that it's not really his fault. But hey, JIM BUSS'S EGO PREVENTS JIM FROM HIRING PHIL JACKSON!!!!!! |
Where did I say anything about ESPN? The fact is that I trusted Jerry Buss as an owner. Jim Buss hasn't done nearly as much to earn the trust of the fans as his father. Hopefully that will change with time. |
Well, if you actually understand the situation, Jim was the one that wanted Phil to come back the 2nd time, and he asked Jeanie if he could talk to Phil to see if he wanted to come back a 3rd time. So to say that Jim chose D'Antoni over Phil is basically going by the media narrative rather than actually what happen according to even Phil himself. And that was after Phil became the Knicks president which means he had no reason to not make the Lakers FO look bad. |
That makes no sense. Phil wanted a couple of days to think it over. It they wanted him, they would have waited for his answer. Instead, they hired D'Antoni before they even got an answer from Phil.
Hiring D'Antoni tells me they didn't want Phil. They wanted D'Antoni. |
Mitch got an answer from Phil before they even asked him the month prior, that was according to Phil's own updated book and there was report of it from Ramona Shelburne when this whole thing went down but rest of the media readily ignored because it wouldn't have made a good story. Phil said he didn't really want to come back to coaching.
And in his book, he said that he didn't really feel like coming back and if he did, it would've only been for a year. And in his subsequent interviews after his book tour, he said he probably wouldn't have accepted the job.
So all this, Jim hired over MDA is simply wrong since if they waited, it would've been at least an additional week before they had a coach or however long that they would've had to wait. And that was in the middle of the season, with an interim coach that was not liking the spotlight, and if Phil rejected the Lakers and we waited, the FO would've been slaughtered by the media for waiting. It's a no win situation.
I honestly didn't think it was such a big deal as the rest of the media and the fans, and I didn't really expect Phil to go all cryptic in his book tours that help fuel the media narratives. Yes, this is partly fueled by Phil by not actually answering the questions so he can sell his book. |
All they needed to do was wait another day or two to get a response from Phil.
If the situation was so desperate, then they should have kept Brown or even fired him in the offseason. I feel the entire thing was managed very poorly. |
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Steve007
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | "Phil wanted Jim Buss to walk away with his tail between his legs," one source with knowledge of the discussions told Yahoo! Sports. "He thought he had time to still negotiate with them, and see how much they would give him." |
This part from a source sounds like complete speculation. He wanted Buss to walk away with his tail between his legs? Phil obviously didn't tell the source that. |
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NomisR
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:08 am Post subject: |
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| Steve007 wrote: | | NomisR wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | | NomisR wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | | NomisR wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: |
The last time we thought this team had a shot at a title, ownership picked Mike D'Antoni over Phil Jackson. That makes me more pessimistic about the future.
And I think it's sad that there are two threads talking about the Clippers here. Maybe that shows how far we've fallen. Giving the Clippers this much attention makes them seem more relevant IMO. |
So you're one of those that falls for the BSPN's narrative of Jim Buss's ego even after Phil Jackson that came out and said otherwise.
But hey, it's Jim Buss's fault because it sounds good, even if reality and facts shows that it's not really his fault. But hey, JIM BUSS'S EGO PREVENTS JIM FROM HIRING PHIL JACKSON!!!!!! |
Where did I say anything about ESPN? The fact is that I trusted Jerry Buss as an owner. Jim Buss hasn't done nearly as much to earn the trust of the fans as his father. Hopefully that will change with time. |
Well, if you actually understand the situation, Jim was the one that wanted Phil to come back the 2nd time, and he asked Jeanie if he could talk to Phil to see if he wanted to come back a 3rd time. So to say that Jim chose D'Antoni over Phil is basically going by the media narrative rather than actually what happen according to even Phil himself. And that was after Phil became the Knicks president which means he had no reason to not make the Lakers FO look bad. |
That makes no sense. Phil wanted a couple of days to think it over. It they wanted him, they would have waited for his answer. Instead, they hired D'Antoni before they even got an answer from Phil.
Hiring D'Antoni tells me they didn't want Phil. They wanted D'Antoni. |
Mitch got an answer from Phil before they even asked him the month prior, that was according to Phil's own updated book and there was report of it from Ramona Shelburne when this whole thing went down but rest of the media readily ignored because it wouldn't have made a good story. Phil said he didn't really want to come back to coaching.
And in his book, he said that he didn't really feel like coming back and if he did, it would've only been for a year. And in his subsequent interviews after his book tour, he said he probably wouldn't have accepted the job.
So all this, Jim hired over MDA is simply wrong since if they waited, it would've been at least an additional week before they had a coach or however long that they would've had to wait. And that was in the middle of the season, with an interim coach that was not liking the spotlight, and if Phil rejected the Lakers and we waited, the FO would've been slaughtered by the media for waiting. It's a no win situation.
I honestly didn't think it was such a big deal as the rest of the media and the fans, and I didn't really expect Phil to go all cryptic in his book tours that help fuel the media narratives. Yes, this is partly fueled by Phil by not actually answering the questions so he can sell his book. |
All they needed to do was wait another day or two to get a response from Phil.
If the situation was so desperate, then they should have kept Brown or even fired him in the offseason. I feel the entire thing was managed very poorly. |
Wait for him to say no? And then what? |
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Steve007
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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| NomisR wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | | NomisR wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | | NomisR wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | | NomisR wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: |
The last time we thought this team had a shot at a title, ownership picked Mike D'Antoni over Phil Jackson. That makes me more pessimistic about the future.
And I think it's sad that there are two threads talking about the Clippers here. Maybe that shows how far we've fallen. Giving the Clippers this much attention makes them seem more relevant IMO. |
So you're one of those that falls for the BSPN's narrative of Jim Buss's ego even after Phil Jackson that came out and said otherwise.
But hey, it's Jim Buss's fault because it sounds good, even if reality and facts shows that it's not really his fault. But hey, JIM BUSS'S EGO PREVENTS JIM FROM HIRING PHIL JACKSON!!!!!! |
Where did I say anything about ESPN? The fact is that I trusted Jerry Buss as an owner. Jim Buss hasn't done nearly as much to earn the trust of the fans as his father. Hopefully that will change with time. |
Well, if you actually understand the situation, Jim was the one that wanted Phil to come back the 2nd time, and he asked Jeanie if he could talk to Phil to see if he wanted to come back a 3rd time. So to say that Jim chose D'Antoni over Phil is basically going by the media narrative rather than actually what happen according to even Phil himself. And that was after Phil became the Knicks president which means he had no reason to not make the Lakers FO look bad. |
That makes no sense. Phil wanted a couple of days to think it over. It they wanted him, they would have waited for his answer. Instead, they hired D'Antoni before they even got an answer from Phil.
Hiring D'Antoni tells me they didn't want Phil. They wanted D'Antoni. |
Mitch got an answer from Phil before they even asked him the month prior, that was according to Phil's own updated book and there was report of it from Ramona Shelburne when this whole thing went down but rest of the media readily ignored because it wouldn't have made a good story. Phil said he didn't really want to come back to coaching.
And in his book, he said that he didn't really feel like coming back and if he did, it would've only been for a year. And in his subsequent interviews after his book tour, he said he probably wouldn't have accepted the job.
So all this, Jim hired over MDA is simply wrong since if they waited, it would've been at least an additional week before they had a coach or however long that they would've had to wait. And that was in the middle of the season, with an interim coach that was not liking the spotlight, and if Phil rejected the Lakers and we waited, the FO would've been slaughtered by the media for waiting. It's a no win situation.
I honestly didn't think it was such a big deal as the rest of the media and the fans, and I didn't really expect Phil to go all cryptic in his book tours that help fuel the media narratives. Yes, this is partly fueled by Phil by not actually answering the questions so he can sell his book. |
All they needed to do was wait another day or two to get a response from Phil.
If the situation was so desperate, then they should have kept Brown or even fired him in the offseason. I feel the entire thing was managed very poorly. |
Wait for him to say no? And then what? |
They didn't know that he would say no. Also, from what I've read it sounded like he was leaning towards accepting the job. The guy has 11 rings so you give him a chance to say yes. You don't run to the guy who failed with 2 teams and never made the Finals.
If they didn't have a plan B when they fired Brown then that just shows a lot of incompetence on their part. But do you really think D'Antoni would have suddenly been unavailable about 2 days later?
You call this a no win situation. Well, who put the team in a no win situation? The front office. That's what happens when you fire a coach during the season, which in my opinion is a dumb move UNLESS you're certain that Phil would come back. They could have fired him in the offseason or they could have tried to hire someone like Adelman or Brian Shaw instead of hiring Brown in the first place. |
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