Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90307 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:36 am Post subject:
The criteria has been pretty consistent. Dominant player on an elite (almost always above fifty wins) team. The politics are within those parameters, and often come down to popularuty, "turn", and great story. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel
I don't care what an agent says, but I am annoyed at MYCHAL THOMPSON saying the same thing
Why?
The key part of the statement is "two-way" and it's undeniably true.
The last time Kobe played above-average defense on a regular basis, Klay Thompson was in third grade.
The most first team All D team selections in league history aside right?
Again with the popularity contests. And we haven't seen Kobe there recently.
Until last season it was voted on by NBA head coaches only. The ones who had to actually design game plans around the opposition defenders. Kobe was all D first team as recently as recently as 2011. All D second team 2012.
And the reason the coaches no longer vote on this? Because they were too busy designing game plans to be bothered with pondering over an awards ballot. You think Popovich wasted a second on this? It's been well known for years that Head Coaches kick those down to interns because they DGAF about it, especially when they can't vote for their own players. Kobe making First Team All D over Tony Allen, Ronnie Brewer or Wesley Matthews in 2011 or Iggy in 2012 were pretty strong indications that whoever was voting on this wasn't thinking hard enough or didn't know any better.
None of those guys can guard Westbrook AND LBJ.
Tony Allen is usually too busy guarding Kevin Durant to guard Russell Westbrook (what with having Mike Conley at pg and all as well...), but it's got nothing to do with what you can do. Players being rested on the opponents weak offensive wing due to their importance on offense simply shouldn't be on All D teams.
Why do you think the nba changed the voting system? because the previous one was broken to the point of absurdity. The straw that broke the camel's back was the DPOY basically needing the voting "fiddled with" to even make a defensive 2nd team, but the intern voting system they had was broken long before.
Yeah, the NBA really cares about validity of it's awards and voting systems. That's why Steve Nash is sitting on as many MVP's as Kobe and Shaq combined.
There's also a reason Shaq and Kobe are sitting on 9 rings and Nash has 0. The stacked teams that cost them MVPs won them rings instead.
Not to mention, MVP is actually regular season MVP. It has nothing to do with rings.
The criteria has been pretty consistent. Dominant player on an elite (almost always above fifty wins) team. The politics are within those parameters, and often come down to popularuty, "turn", and great story.
For the most part yeah. But I've heard it switched amongst sportswriters before. When Kobe was killing it in '06 it was yeah he's dominant but his team is no good. Then during the back-to-back it was yeah he's playing well but his team is stacked. They really only gave it to him in '08 because the Lakers were a surprise team to make the finals that year. The "turn" as you put it.
Those politics have robbed many players of MVP awards
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90307 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:55 pm Post subject:
22 wrote:
24 wrote:
The criteria has been pretty consistent. Dominant player on an elite (almost always above fifty wins) team. The politics are within those parameters, and often come down to popularuty, "turn", and great story.
For the most part yeah. But I've heard it switched amongst sportswriters before. When Kobe was killing it in '06 it was yeah he's dominant but his team is no good. Then during the back-to-back it was yeah he's playing well but his team is stacked. They really only gave it to him in '08 because the Lakers were a surprise team to make the finals that year. The "turn" as you put it.
Those politics have robbed many players of MVP awards
Never heard any argument for stacked team with Kobe during the back to back years. People just thought LBJ was playing the best and he was on an elite w/l team. And he was simply more popular. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel
The reason Shaq doesn't have more mvps is Shaq's offseasons.
I'm the biggest critic of shaq becoming snaq but that is false. Shaq was deserving of more mvp awards. However the NBA MVP award is VERY dependent on politics.
The criteria for winning it changes to suit the mood of whichever media writer has an opinion.
Best player on the best team?
Best player over all?
If you took X guy off Y roster, how much worse would they be?
etc. etc.
It's a sham
There is no criteria.
There are 120 some voters filling out their ballots based on whatever each of them thinks is important. Which is no different than any other award.
However, we can look at the year after year voting and see patterns.
Joined: 20 Apr 2006 Posts: 15294 Location: Southern California
Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 5:54 am Post subject:
mhan00 wrote:
KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
Birmingham wrote:
Chronicle wrote:
I don't care what an agent says, but I am annoyed at MYCHAL THOMPSON saying the same thing
Why?
The key part of the statement is "two-way" and it's undeniably true.
The last time Kobe played above-average defense on a regular basis, Klay Thompson was in third grade.
The most first team All D team selections in league history aside right?
Wasn't Harden second team all d last year? Yeah, that (bleep) isn't very credible. It's based on past rep and not on current performance far too often. Kobe had a number of years he slacked a lot on D most games with lock down D when he cared.
No. Beverly and Jimmy Butler. With that said, we've all got on Bryant especially recently for floating on D. There was a couple years where he got on the list based on rep.
At this very moment, his agent is correct. Anyone who would take a 36 year old coming off a horrific injury over a young, two-way sniper with a pure jumper is crazy.
Joined: 20 Apr 2006 Posts: 15294 Location: Southern California
Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 6:10 am Post subject:
activeverb wrote:
22 wrote:
Telleris wrote:
The reason Shaq doesn't have more mvps is Shaq's offseasons.
I'm the biggest critic of shaq becoming snaq but that is false. Shaq was deserving of more mvp awards. However the NBA MVP award is VERY dependent on politics.
The criteria for winning it changes to suit the mood of whichever media writer has an opinion.
Best player on the best team?
Best player over all?
If you took X guy off Y roster, how much worse would they be?
etc. etc.
It's a sham
There is no criteria.
There are 120 some voters filling out their ballots based on whatever each of them thinks is important. Which is no different than any other award.
However, we can look at the year after year voting and see patterns.
And one of those patterns are star players on seventh seeded teams aren't getting the MVP award. Just couldn't see Kobe getting the award even though he was the best player in the league. Dude's prime was wasted on (bleep) squads.
Joined: 07 Jul 2006 Posts: 8287 Location: Oxnard, Ca.
Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:24 am Post subject:
Kobe is just not popular among basketball fans and players. Kobe has always been a individual when it comes to playing the game day to day. Kobe is not the ultimate team guy in many fans eyes even though his assist stats say he is a team guy. Because Kobe is a high energy scorer throughout his career he has been labeled as a selfish player which IMO is wrong, his talent is over the top. Is Kobe still an elite player, probably not, but I am not going to underestimate Kobe's mental toughness, he just might have something left in the tank. Is he better than Klay, probably not but time will tell, Kobe is an all time elite talent! _________________ .....
.....
ALTHOUGH HE STANDS 6 FEET 2 INCHES, JIM BUSS ATTENDED JOCKEY SCHOOL WHEN HE WAS 20.
Kobe is just not popular among basketball fans and players. Kobe has always been a individual when it comes to playing the game day to day. Kobe is not the ultimate team guy in many fans eyes even though his assist stats say he is a team guy. Because Kobe is a high energy scorer throughout his career he has been labeled as a selfish player which IMO is wrong, his talent is over the top. Is Kobe still an elite player, probably not, but I am not going to underestimate Kobe's mental toughness, he just might have something left in the tank. Is he better than Klay, probably not but time will tell, Kobe is an all time elite talent!
Basketball players? I can understand fans and obvious media outlets like espn...but players? I thought players had the highest respect for Kobe. Are we talking NBA players or YMCA basketball players? And come on Kobe made the All-Star team playing what...6 games and only 4 people got more votes than him....
on another note. intelligent wolves fans pronouncing Zach lavine a young Kobe. Awesome. I've seen Kobe play at Lower Merion. Not the same. I thought Kobe was the next Jordan.
Kinda of a diss to say lavine is anywhere near a young Kobe. Lavine was timid at UCLA. Kobe was never timid about putting points in the basket even as a 17 yr old.
Klay, his daddy and his agent are all delusional if they think that Klay is better all-around than Kobe. Defensively, sure. Offensively not even close. Klay is nothing more than a spot-up shooter who can't create his own shot. Watch the playoff series against the Clips to see what I mean.
Kobe, in his 50s, will be better offensively than Klay and probably 90% of the NBA.
Joined: 07 Jul 2006 Posts: 8287 Location: Oxnard, Ca.
Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:35 am Post subject:
Jeggs wrote:
Voices wrote:
Kobe is just not popular among basketball fans and players. Kobe has always been a individual when it comes to playing the game day to day. Kobe is not the ultimate team guy in many fans eyes even though his assist stats say he is a team guy. Because Kobe is a high energy scorer throughout his career he has been labeled as a selfish player which IMO is wrong, his talent is over the top. Is Kobe still an elite player, probably not, but I am not going to underestimate Kobe's mental toughness, he just might have something left in the tank. Is he better than Klay, probably not but time will tell, Kobe is an all time elite talent!
Basketball players? I can understand fans and obvious media outlets like espn...but players? I thought players had the highest respect for Kobe. Are we talking NBA players or YMCA basketball players? And come on Kobe made the All-Star team playing what...6 games and only 4 people got more votes than him....
Respect and popularity are two different things, Kobe is popular among LA fans and world wide fans but not among US fans generally speaking, not like James, Wade, Duncan, Parker and Durant. I believe it is a result of Colorado which cost Kobe dearly, not only in dollars but popularity as well. Kobe is respected among most NBA players, but liked as well, I don't think so.
Kobe was the difference in making the Olympic team a great team by showing the team how to play defense something James could not do, but did not get the credit he deserved IMO.
Kobe's battles with Shaq did not serve Kobe well, even though IMO Shaq was more of the problem.
Also PJ did not do Kobe any favors in the popularity department when he was slamming Kobe in his books. _________________ .....
.....
ALTHOUGH HE STANDS 6 FEET 2 INCHES, JIM BUSS ATTENDED JOCKEY SCHOOL WHEN HE WAS 20.
Lack of context and confidence here. I have no doubt Kobe does not view klay as a superior player even when he was hurt. But that's really not the point. It's a sales pitch. That's it. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals
Kobe is just not popular among basketball fans and players. Kobe has always been a individual when it comes to playing the game day to day. Kobe is not the ultimate team guy in many fans eyes even though his assist stats say he is a team guy. Because Kobe is a high energy scorer throughout his career he has been labeled as a selfish player which IMO is wrong, his talent is over the top. Is Kobe still an elite player, probably not, but I am not going to underestimate Kobe's mental toughness, he just might have something left in the tank. Is he better than Klay, probably not but time will tell, Kobe is an all time elite talent!
Basketball players? I can understand fans and obvious media outlets like espn...but players? I thought players had the highest respect for Kobe. Are we talking NBA players or YMCA basketball players? And come on Kobe made the All-Star team playing what...6 games and only 4 people got more votes than him....
Respect and popularity are two different things, Kobe is popular among LA fans and world wide fans but not among US fans generally speaking, not like James, Wade, Duncan, Parker and Durant. I believe it is a result of Colorado which cost Kobe dearly, not only in dollars but popularity as well. Kobe is respected among most NBA players, but liked as well, I don't think so.
Kobe was the difference in making the Olympic team a great team by showing the team how to play defense something James could not do, but did not get the credit he deserved IMO.
Kobe's battles with Shaq did not serve Kobe well, even though IMO Shaq was more of the problem.
Also PJ did not do Kobe any favors in the popularity department when he was slamming Kobe in his books.
I think you are greatly underrating how many players admire and look up to Kobe as their idiol especially the rookies list Kobe as their favorite player growing up. Kobe is mostly loved now compared to the early 2000's for sexual assault case, Phil book, ran Shaq out of town, etc. Kobe finally got close to Bird/Magic level as popularity wise and face of the league the crafty older veteran that his peers respect.
Joined: 07 Jul 2006 Posts: 8287 Location: Oxnard, Ca.
Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:31 am Post subject:
Nightwalker wrote:
Voices wrote:
Jeggs wrote:
Voices wrote:
Kobe is just not popular among basketball fans and players. Kobe has always been a individual when it comes to playing the game day to day. Kobe is not the ultimate team guy in many fans eyes even though his assist stats say he is a team guy. Because Kobe is a high energy scorer throughout his career he has been labeled as a selfish player which IMO is wrong, his talent is over the top. Is Kobe still an elite player, probably not, but I am not going to underestimate Kobe's mental toughness, he just might have something left in the tank. Is he better than Klay, probably not but time will tell, Kobe is an all time elite talent!
Basketball players? I can understand fans and obvious media outlets like espn...but players? I thought players had the highest respect for Kobe. Are we talking NBA players or YMCA basketball players? And come on Kobe made the All-Star team playing what...6 games and only 4 people got more votes than him....
Respect and popularity are two different things, Kobe is popular among LA fans and world wide fans but not among US fans generally speaking, not like James, Wade, Duncan, Parker and Durant. I believe it is a result of Colorado which cost Kobe dearly, not only in dollars but popularity as well. Kobe is respected among most NBA players, but liked as well, I don't think so.
Kobe was the difference in making the Olympic team a great team by showing the team how to play defense something James could not do, but did not get the credit he deserved IMO.
Kobe's battles with Shaq did not serve Kobe well, even though IMO Shaq was more of the problem.
Also PJ did not do Kobe any favors in the popularity department when he was slamming Kobe in his books.
I think you are greatly underrating how many players admire and look up to Kobe as their idiol especially the rookies list Kobe as their favorite player growing up. Kobe is mostly loved now compared to the early 2000's for sexual assault case, Phil book, ran Shaq out of town, etc. Kobe finally got close to Bird/Magic level as popularity wise and face of the league the crafty older veteran that his peers respect.
IMO Kobe does not come close in popularity that Magic and Bird had. Keep in mind that the NCAA championship game that Magic and Bird played in is still the highest rated game in NCAA history. Also keep in mind that Bird and Magic are somewhat responsible for the growth in popularity that the NBA has enjoyed over the past 28 years. Bird and Magic were super popular in college, Kobe did not get the popularity bump that Bird and Magic from college because he did not play in college. Kobe is respected more than he is liked IMO in the US, however I believe Kobe is the most liked outside the US. _________________ .....
.....
ALTHOUGH HE STANDS 6 FEET 2 INCHES, JIM BUSS ATTENDED JOCKEY SCHOOL WHEN HE WAS 20.
Wouldn't be surprised if Duncan is pretty unknown outside the U.S. As great as Duncan is, he's not close to Kobe in terms of skill and talent overall. Neither was Wade(but Wade arguably peaked near Kobe/Jordan level for a small period of time). At the same time Duncan is one of the best to ever do it at his position. But that is the disparity between GOAT and superstar.
Kobe is above Michael Jordan, but both Kobe and MJ are far and away above everyone else.
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144474 Location: The Gold Coast
Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 1:51 pm Post subject:
None of them can match Cap's resume as a basketball player. No one comes close. Duncan is the best at his position but lacks skill and overall talent? That makes no sense at all. If you are saying that Duncan lacks guard skills and talent, then it does make sense. There is no player in the GOAT discussion that lacks skill and talent. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
Last edited by venturalakersfan on Sun Sep 21, 2014 3:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
The criteria has been pretty consistent. Dominant player on an elite (almost always above fifty wins) team. The politics are within those parameters, and often come down to popularuty, "turn", and great story.
For the most part yeah. But I've heard it switched amongst sportswriters before. When Kobe was killing it in '06 it was yeah he's dominant but his team is no good. Then during the back-to-back it was yeah he's playing well but his team is stacked. They really only gave it to him in '08 because the Lakers were a surprise team to make the finals that year. The "turn" as you put it.
Those politics have robbed many players of MVP awards
Never heard any argument for stacked team with Kobe during the back to back years. People just thought LBJ was playing the best and he was on an elite w/l team. And he was simply more popular.
Yeah, I checked over the back to back years to confirm and LeBron's team won more regular season games both years and LeBron finished ahead of Kobe in PPG, RPG, and APG. There have been some controversial votings over the years but LeBron was near unanimous those years.
Kobe was certainly worthy in those years and in many years, having those statlines on a 60-65 win team would have been more than enough.
Joined: 07 Jul 2006 Posts: 8287 Location: Oxnard, Ca.
Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:35 am Post subject:
Jeggs wrote:
Wouldn't be surprised if Duncan is pretty unknown outside the U.S. As great as Duncan is, he's not close to Kobe in terms of skill and talent overall. Neither was Wade(but Wade arguably peaked near Kobe/Jordan level for a small period of time). At the same time Duncan is one of the best to ever do it at his position. But that is the disparity between GOAT and superstar.
Kobe is above Michael Jordan, but both Kobe and MJ are far and away above everyone else.
Duncan has proved over many years that he is an all time great, 5 championships speaks volumes. Kobe and MJ can not do what Duncan can and Duncan can not do what Kobe and MJ can. Duncan's value to his team is as great as MJ's and Kobe.
I don't get it, why does Kobe have to be Goat, he is an undisputed all time great, surly top 8 all time and could be even higher. Isn't that good enough?
Kobe above MJ, sorry but the mass majority don't agree. Kobe is an all time great but is not the goat, that is a total homer view. _________________ .....
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ALTHOUGH HE STANDS 6 FEET 2 INCHES, JIM BUSS ATTENDED JOCKEY SCHOOL WHEN HE WAS 20.
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