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Phil: "Kobe modeled his behavior a lot about Michael Jordan, but he went beyond Michael in his attitude towards training"
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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144462
Location: The Gold Coast

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:16 pm Post subject:

Jeggs wrote:

venturalakersfan wrote:

Sat injured on the bench almost the entire season?

Actually he took he worst starting lineup in the history of the NBA to the 2nd round. And you know what team I am talking about, stop trolling.

Last season's starting lineup was the worst ever. And the Lakers never made the second round until Pau showed up.
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.

Telleris
Star Player

Joined: 28 May 2013
Posts: 2371

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:25 pm Post subject:

Jeggs wrote:

Dreamshake wrote:

Jeggs wrote:

I know people are not Laker fans when they make statements like these because Gasol and Bynum were shotty at best if you actually watch the games. Bynum's constant issues with his knee kept him from making a big impact, and Gasol was extremely consistent at being inconsistent and at times, a relative no show especially in the playoffs. When you get owned by Perkins and Big Baby something is wrong...

I wish I could have a player inconsistently give me 18, 11, 2.5 and 2 on 58% in the playoffs, like Gasol did in 09. Oh, and neutralize a guy like Howard too!! Or the 20, 11, 3.5 and 2 he gave y'all in the 10 playoffs. Real shotty numbers there!

Jeggs wrote:

In Kobe's 2nd two titles, his supporting cast was far weaker than Jordan's cast.

That's why Kobe's 2nd two titles were more impressive than Jordan's 6 titles combined.

Dirk's supporting cast was worse than all of the casts for Kobe's 5 titles. Does that mean his title was more impressive than Kobe's 5 titles combined?

Well let's see here:

Chandler > Bynum
Jason Terry > Sasha
Jason Kidd > Fisher
Barea > Fisher
Marion > Odum

Should I go on or are we done here? Dallas had an excellent defensive team. Chandler, Marion, a clutch 3 point shooter in Jason Terry. Not to mention the leadership of Hall of Famer Jason Freak'n Kidd?

Are you kidding me Dreamshake? You know the rules, hand down man down. Dirk had a better supporting cast than Kobe.

When you leave out Pau Gasol, who was statistically better than Kobe over one of those playoffs, of course it would seem like that to you.
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Dreamshake
Franchise Player

Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 13711

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:40 pm Post subject:

Jeggs wrote:

Dreamshake wrote:

Jeggs wrote:

In Kobe's 2nd two titles, his supporting cast was far weaker than Jordan's cast.

That's why Kobe's 2nd two titles were more impressive than Jordan's 6 titles combined.

Dirk's supporting cast was worse than all of the casts for Kobe's 5 titles. Does that mean his title was more impressive than Kobe's 5 titles combined?

Yes, please go on. Start with why did you left off Gasol (I posted his DOMINANT numbers above), Ariza and Artest?

ringfinger
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Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:18 pm Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:

Jeggs wrote:

venturalakersfan wrote:

Sat injured on the bench almost the entire season?

Actually he took he worst starting lineup in the history of the NBA to the 2nd round. And you know what team I am talking about, stop trolling.

Last season's starting lineup was the worst ever. And the Lakers never made the second round until Pau showed up.

This actually brings up an interesting point. If the 2009 Lakers outside of Kobe was garbage, and the 2006 Lakers outside of Kobe were garbage, then does that mean these people are actually saying that Kobe has no real impact?

Jeggs
Star Player

Joined: 14 Oct 2013
Posts: 1659

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:35 pm Post subject:

Telleris wrote:

Jeggs wrote:

Dreamshake wrote:

Jeggs wrote:

In Kobe's 2nd two titles, his supporting cast was far weaker than Jordan's cast.

That's why Kobe's 2nd two titles were more impressive than Jordan's 6 titles combined.

Dirk's supporting cast was worse than all of the casts for Kobe's 5 titles. Does that mean his title was more impressive than Kobe's 5 titles combined?

When you leave out Pau Gasol, who was statistically better than Kobe over one of those playoffs, of course it would seem like that to you.

Statistically better? Can you post the numbers of both kobe and gasol because that is very doubtful. And you don't even know how to take stats into context. Who is suppose to have better stats...the guy getting double and triple teamed or the guy going one on one in the post...getting garbage plays and passes because everyone is focused on 24...

voylash
Starting Rotation

Joined: 31 Oct 2012
Posts: 247

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:36 pm Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:

venturalakersfan wrote:

Jeggs wrote:

venturalakersfan wrote:

Sat injured on the bench almost the entire season?

Actually he took he worst starting lineup in the history of the NBA to the 2nd round. And you know what team I am talking about, stop trolling.

Last season's starting lineup was the worst ever. And the Lakers never made the second round until Pau showed up.

Who said they were garbage ? There is a difference between being worse than hall of famers and garbage...

Nightwalker
Star Player

Joined: 09 May 2013
Posts: 2739

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:43 pm Post subject:

God this thread has given me a headache some of these post, man. Enough is enough already. Mods lock this thread already every Kobe vs MJ turns into this.

moonriver24
Franchise Player

Joined: 21 Oct 2007
Posts: 15265

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:32 pm Post subject:

voylash wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

venturalakersfan wrote:

Jeggs wrote:

venturalakersfan wrote:

Sat injured on the bench almost the entire season?

Actually he took he worst starting lineup in the history of the NBA to the 2nd round. And you know what team I am talking about, stop trolling.

Last season's starting lineup was the worst ever. And the Lakers never made the second round until Pau showed up.

Who said they were garbage ? There is a difference between being worse than hall of famers and garbage...

The other side (pro MJ or contra Kobe side) uses the word garbage to describe odom, gasol, artest, etc; to make pro kobe side look bad and ignorant when discussing post shaq era.

So, I suggest pro kobe side to use names such as:

Odom, Artest, Gasol, Fish, Ariza, Sasha
Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc, Ron Harper, Kerr, Amstrong, Paxson, Horace Grant
and then of course 18 fouls to give in Longley, cartwright, and any name inserted here.

This way, the pro kobe side does not need to explain further which casts of Kobe and MJ are sexier.

Let pro mj or anti kobe explain themselves nicely.
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KobeBryantCliffordBrown
Star Player

Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 6429

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:28 am Post subject:

Nightwalker wrote:

God this thread has given me a headache some of these post, man. Enough is enough already. Mods lock this thread already every Kobe vs MJ turns into this.

Seriously, this thread is just ridiculous.
_________________
“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays

Nightwalker
Star Player

Joined: 09 May 2013
Posts: 2739

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:30 am Post subject:

KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:

Nightwalker wrote:

God this thread has given me a headache some of these post, man. Enough is enough already. Mods lock this thread already every Kobe vs MJ turns into this.

Seriously, this thread is just ridiculous.

Yeah, man it's pretty damn bad.

I wish we all could just appreciate greatness instead of downplaying other players to prop up their favorites of that person. This makes me sick...

onthafarm
Sixth Man

Joined: 25 Sep 2014
Posts: 60

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:25 am Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:

onthafarm wrote:

Dreamshake wrote:

onthafarm wrote:

i think you're missing the point...you can talk them up all you want, but take kobe off that team, and they don't make playoffs.

I don't see why they wouldn't. Gasol has led teams with less talent and worse coaching to the playoffs, in the same conference.

the west was weaker when gasol led the grizzlies to the playoffs (and failed to win a single game smh)

pg derek fisher
sg shannon brown
sf metta world peace
pf lamar odom
c pau gasol

LOL.....this is not a playoff team in the west circa 2008-2010

Why is Andrew Bynum curiously left off as if he was nothing?

And even if that team you listed wasn't a playoff team, what's your point? That a team stripped of $25M or so in player salaries won't make the playoffs? Ummm ... duh?

Put a non-Kobe player or players worth $25M on to that roster and then compare.

my point was that jordan's team minus jordan and no one to fill his void made it to the ECF. kobe's teams in '09-'10 didn't have the prowess. looks to me like you agreed with me without even realizing it.

onthafarm
Sixth Man

Joined: 25 Sep 2014
Posts: 60

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:27 am Post subject:

KBH wrote:

onthafarm wrote:

KBH wrote:

onthafarm wrote:

KBH wrote:

onthafarm wrote:

KBH wrote:

onthafarm wrote:

KBH wrote:

onthafarm wrote:

KBH wrote:

onthafarm wrote:

KBH wrote:

JerryMagicKobe wrote:

KBH wrote:

venturalakersfan wrote:

I see your point, but by the time Kobe became Kobe, those 2 teams had the time to develop from expansion teams.

And another team was added in 2004 when Kobe became Kobe. Your point makes no sense.

For this discussion, dilution is the ratio of players on NBA rosters to the pool of available talent.
In 1988 the league expanded by 2 teams (Heat, Hornets).
In 1989 they added 2 more (Magic, Timberwolves).
In 1995 they added 2 more (Raptors, Grizzlies). 72 jobs added in the seven year span that loosely matched MJ's prime winning years.

Basketball has long been a global game and there have been foreign born players in the NBA as far back as the 1940s, but the popularity of the 92 Dream Team and Jordan himself triggered a sharp spike in youth basketball globally. A few years later those players began finding their way to the NBA, a trend that continued to grow in numbers during Kobe's career. The number of foreign born players expected to make 2014-15 NBA teams could fill the rosters of the expansion Heat, Hornets, Magic, Timberwolves, Raptors, Grizzlies and the Pelicans all by themselves.

And why exactly does this matter so much? Did MJ's stats increase because there were more inferior players in the league? No. Actually his stats were better in the 80's. And it seems people only want to acknowledge that the talent was spread around more to other teams and not the Bulls themselves. If the NBA remained at, say, 23 teams in the league, who's to say the Bulls don't add players to bolster their own already great team? You could imagine that through some butterfly effect scenario if the Orlando Magic don't join the league in 1989, the Bulls somehow end up with Penny Hardaway in the 1993 draft (similarly to how we got Worthy in the draft through a trade from years prior). Who knows who else they could have had themselves. The talent dilution works both ways, not just against the Bulls. Which is why it's pointless to discuss. Every team in the league at the time was playing under the same conditions and Jordan's own stats were better in the "less diluted" 80's, so what is being proven here?

i think the main point is that he woulda never threepeated if the competition was the same it was in the 80s....and furthermore, he woulda never won if he didnt play with the 2nd best player in the league for each of his 6 championships.

And the reason people say the competition wasn't the same is because of expansion spreading the talent out to more teams. Which also means talent potentially got taken away from the Bulls. If you're you're going to bring up expansion, you have to acknowledge that it did take talent away from the Bulls, too, which would have meant the Bulls would likely still have been the best team in the league.

As for the second point, it's highly arguable that Scottie Pippen was the second-best player in the league at the time in the first place. And this is coming from a guy who considers Scottie his favorite non-Laker.

Also, the statement you're making that they wouldn't have three-peated without Scottie may be the silliest statement in this thread. So you're saying that if you remove key cogs from a team that team would be less successful? Ya don't say?! You can make this statement about any player and team ever. Magic doesn't win five rings without playing another top-5 ALL-TIME player. Shaq doesn't three-peat if he didn't have the second-best player in his league on his side. Kobe doesn't get a repeat if he isn't joined by Gasol, so on and so forth. Like I said, this is silly. And pointless.

all i'm saying is that jordan was extremely lucky to play with pippen for the entire duration of his prime in the 90s.....had he played with kwame brown and smush parker in his prime instead, results wouldnt exactly be the same. get my point?

and please dont compare gasol to pippin, SMH

The point is every player on a championship team is "lucky" to have that team's key pieces. Taking away key pieces and saying "they wouldn't have won!" doesn't prove a thing. I didn't compare Gasol to Pippen. I illustrated a point.

well, the point thats going over your head for some reason is that Kobe WASN'T lucky enough to have a Pippen on his team for the duration of his prime.

And Kobe was lucky to have the players in his supporting cast to contribute to his ring. Basically, you have no compelling point to make. You don't need Scottie Pippen on your team to win a ring.

so the fact that Kobe won with way less than MJ isn't a compelling point? LOL!

No, because your point is wrong and all I have to do is say the name Shaquille to make you and your claim look outrageous.

can we think before we post? i'm talking about Kobe's back-to-back with Gasol as second fiddle...come on, now.

So your point is that a core that won six rings had more talent than a core that won two (while also giving more credit to that team's second best player than the best). Bravo. I think I speak for us all when I say we're all eagerly anticipating your next piece of basketball insight.

isnt that what half the people in this thread are arguing against? so while it may seem silly for me to have to bring something so obvious up, it definitely has to be done...and you can miss me with that sarcasm, considering you couldn't even follow what i was saying the first time around.

Except you fail to realize that "core" included the guy that was the best player in the league and arguably best ever. The guy that won 6 finals MVP's is the biggest reason why that team's core was better than 09-10. This in no way proves that the 09-10 runs are more impressive than the Bulls six title runs. Trying to make the claim that two is more impressive than six is utterly ridiculous and the only way you can salvage this nonsensical argument is being consistent and saying that The 94 Rockets and 03 Spurs runs are more impressive than the Lakers back to back. And since I know you won't, this makes your arguments biased at best and plain stupid at worst.

i think you got me confused with someone else.

onthafarm
Sixth Man

Joined: 25 Sep 2014
Posts: 60

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:28 am Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:

onthafarm wrote:

again, ignoring my main point and grasping at straws...and even ignoring what i just finished saying. I GUESS I GOTTA SAY IT AGAIN, MY FRIEND- JAMES WORTHY AND SAM PERKINS WOULD NOT ALLOW JORDAN TO SCORE 28 POINTS PER GAME. if it was up to jordan, he woulda scored 40 ppg in college..unfortunately, theres a thing called SENIORITY. but i see what you're doing. it's okay, bud. carry on.........

Worthy only played 1 season with Jordan. So......

bro, what is your point?

ringfinger
Retired Number

Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 6:12 am Post subject:

voylash wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

venturalakersfan wrote:

Jeggs wrote:

venturalakersfan wrote:

Sat injured on the bench almost the entire season?

Actually he took he worst starting lineup in the history of the NBA to the 2nd round. And you know what team I am talking about, stop trolling.

Last season's starting lineup was the worst ever. And the Lakers never made the second round until Pau showed up.

Who said they were garbage ? There is a difference between being worse than hall of famers and garbage...

Oh, so now they're not garbage? Hey, I didn't use that term. Others did to describe Odom/Pau/MWP. Come on. Were they garbage or not? LOL.

KBH
Franchise Player

Joined: 13 Sep 2008
Posts: 12171

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 6:31 am Post subject:

Jeggs wrote:

Telleris wrote:

Jeggs wrote:

Dreamshake wrote:

Jeggs wrote:

In Kobe's 2nd two titles, his supporting cast was far weaker than Jordan's cast.

That's why Kobe's 2nd two titles were more impressive than Jordan's 6 titles combined.

Dirk's supporting cast was worse than all of the casts for Kobe's 5 titles. Does that mean his title was more impressive than Kobe's 5 titles combined?

When you leave out Pau Gasol, who was statistically better than Kobe over one of those playoffs, of course it would seem like that to you.

This doesn't change the fact that you purposely left Gasol out to "prove" your point.

ringfinger
Retired Number

Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 6:34 am Post subject:

onthafarm wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

onthafarm wrote:

Dreamshake wrote:

onthafarm wrote:

i think you're missing the point...you can talk them up all you want, but take kobe off that team, and they don't make playoffs.

I don't see why they wouldn't. Gasol has led teams with less talent and worse coaching to the playoffs, in the same conference.

Didn't the Bulls go and out and acquire players like Toni Kukoc and Steve Kerr in Jordan's absence? Or do I have my dates mixed up?

And wasn't that era the most diluted era in the history of NBA eras?

When the Lakers traded Shaq away (for players to fill his void mind you), Kobe couldn't pull of a Pippen-esque season and instead led the team to a 34 win season. So why couldn't Kobe do what Pippen did?

Here's how I see it if you want to compare the teammates Jordan had vs Kobe. Jordan had the better #2 in Pippen. Kobe had a slightly lesser #2 in Pau, but had better players at #3/#4/#5 in Andrew Bynum, MWP and Lamar Odom.

KBH
Franchise Player

Joined: 13 Sep 2008
Posts: 12171

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 6:40 am Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:

onthafarm wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

onthafarm wrote:

Dreamshake wrote:

onthafarm wrote:

i think you're missing the point...you can talk them up all you want, but take kobe off that team, and they don't make playoffs.

I don't see why they wouldn't. Gasol has led teams with less talent and worse coaching to the playoffs, in the same conference.

The Bulls added Kucoc and Kerr to the fold like you said, and they also didn't make it to the ECF that year. This is after another guy said the Bulls almost made the Finals (not to mention omitting Gasol when comparing rosters). Dudes in this thread aren't even attempting to be accurate. Can't let facts get in the way of making your point, ya know.

voylash
Starting Rotation

Joined: 31 Oct 2012
Posts: 247

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 6:48 am Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:

onthafarm wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

onthafarm wrote:

Dreamshake wrote:

onthafarm wrote:

i think you're missing the point...you can talk them up all you want, but take kobe off that team, and they don't make playoffs.

I don't see why they wouldn't. Gasol has led teams with less talent and worse coaching to the playoffs, in the same conference.

Better than Rodman and Grant ?

ringfinger
Retired Number

Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 6:53 am Post subject:

^ I think it's pretty close. Not sure that it is a slam dunk one way versus the other. There's a benefit as a guard to playing with a 7-foot front court and a defensive juggernaut in MWP by your side. Not sure I agree with the idea that that is somehow a disadvantage that Kobe had to emerge through to win.

Jeggs
Star Player

Joined: 14 Oct 2013
Posts: 1659

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:13 am Post subject:

KBH wrote:

Jeggs wrote:

Telleris wrote:

Jeggs wrote:

Dreamshake wrote:

Jeggs wrote:

In Kobe's 2nd two titles, his supporting cast was far weaker than Jordan's cast.

That's why Kobe's 2nd two titles were more impressive than Jordan's 6 titles combined.

Dirk's supporting cast was worse than all of the casts for Kobe's 5 titles. Does that mean his title was more impressive than Kobe's 5 titles combined?

When you leave out Pau Gasol, who was statistically better than Kobe over one of those playoffs, of course it would seem like that to you.

This doesn't change the fact that you purposely left Gasol out to "pr

My point was Dallas with Chandler alone had a better front court on the defensive end than the Lakers with Gasol. Chandler = Gasol as far as impact if you look at his defensive presence. What Gasol did offensively didnt matter because you had big baby and perkins scoring on Gasol on the other end. Gasol may get 20 points but he is also giving up 20 against the guys he was guarding.

Their point guards were far better with Kidd and Barea. The And their win was kind of a fluke if you watch that series. Dirk did it once...Kobe did it twice with a weaker supporting cast.

Something Jordan never had to do because he always had several hof players...2 of which that could be argued as the greatest defensive players of all time in Pippen and Rodman.
If Kobe had Jordan's supporting cast and played in Jordan's watered down era he would have 9 rings for certain....ceiling would be 12 rings though.

yinoma2001
Retired Number

Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:16 am Post subject:

Is Jeggs the illegitimate child of MJ or something? The contempt is palpable. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals

KobeBryantCliffordBrown
Star Player

Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 6429

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:19 am Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:

Is Jeggs the illegitimate child of MJ or something? The contempt is palpable.

Actually, he's Harvey Gaant
_________________
“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays

Jeggs
Star Player

Joined: 14 Oct 2013
Posts: 1659

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:21 am Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:

Is Jeggs the illegitimate child of MJ or something? The contempt is palpable.

Is John Wooden the illegitimate child of Jordan since he believed Kobe was the GOAT? Come on.....grow up.

yinoma2001
Retired Number

Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:23 am Post subject:

Jeggs wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

Is Jeggs the illegitimate child of MJ or something? The contempt is palpable.

Is John Wooden the illegitimate child of Jordan since he believed Kobe was the GOAT? Come on.....

At least in my joke it's technically plausible.

Now, how you defy the space/time threshold in yours...it's beyond me.
_________________
From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals

Jeggs
Star Player

Joined: 14 Oct 2013
Posts: 1659

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:33 am Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:

Jeggs wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

Is Jeggs the illegitimate child of MJ or something? The contempt is palpable.

Is John Wooden the illegitimate child of Jordan since he believed Kobe was the GOAT? Come on.....

At least in my joke it's technically plausible.

Now, how you defy the space/time threshold in yours...it's beyond me.

Jordan playing in a Watered down era with expansion teams is a fact already proven in this thread.

It has nothing to do with stuffing Kobe in a Delorion to see what would happen.

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