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HyperX
Sixth Man
Joined: 12 Nov 2014
Posts: 59
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 Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| angus wrote: | INTERESTING STAT:
Kobe is #25 in the NBA among qualified SGs in FG% (#26 Adjusted FG%). Basically about the worst among regular starters.
Lin is #4 FG% (real and adjusted) among all PGs in the NBA at .487.
Hmmm... does it take much coaching skill to think perhaps Kobe's chucking needs to be toned down a bit in the 4th, and some plays for Lin designed other than him having to make it happen himself, perhaps a pass BACK to him? |
Not if the coach is trying to tank. |
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Vin
Star Player
Joined: 03 Jan 2013
Posts: 6005
Location: France
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Moonknight wrote: | | I don't get the argument of Lin is not a starting PG caliber player for a contender. He is not the worse starting PG in the game let alone in NBA history. So why wouldn't he be able to contribute as a starting PG for a championship contender? There is a different between contributing and being counted on as the 1st or 2nd option. Beside, there are only a few contenders each year. It's not a bad thing to be a starting PG for middle of the read team that still make the playoff either, and we all know Lin can already do that. |
Lin is definately not a starting point guard for a contender. He's too inconsistent and his defense is average. |
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JuanCesta
Starting Rotation
Joined: 16 Nov 2014
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| zePokar wrote: | | Moonknight wrote: | | I don't get the argument of Lin is not a starting PG caliber player for a contender. He is not the worse starting PG in the game let alone in NBA history. So why wouldn't he be able to contribute as a starting PG for a championship contender? There is a different between contributing and being counted on as the 1st or 2nd option. Beside, there are only a few contenders each year. It's not a bad thing to be a starting PG for middle of the read team that still make the playoff either, and we all know Lin can already do that. |
Lin is definately not a starting point guard for a contender. He's too inconsistent and his defense is average. |
"Definitely" huh? That pretty strong judgement for player with a True Shooting of 61%. whose been the starter for two playoffs teams and whose only in his 4th full year (5years if your count his bench season as a rookie in GS and the fact he's only 26.
I forgot also Lin had the 2nd highest FG% at the rim after only A fellow named Lebron James.
Yep strong judgement indeed.
_________________
For the whole real truth about Jeremy Lin and his toxic tenure with Houston and Kevin Mchale to a new beginning with the Lakers read my post on Pg 108 in "Official Jeremy Lin thread" posted 11/20/14 at 7:39pm. |
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HyperX
Sixth Man
Joined: 12 Nov 2014
Posts: 59
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| zePokar wrote: | | Moonknight wrote: | | I don't get the argument of Lin is not a starting PG caliber player for a contender. He is not the worse starting PG in the game let alone in NBA history. So why wouldn't he be able to contribute as a starting PG for a championship contender? There is a different between contributing and being counted on as the 1st or 2nd option. Beside, there are only a few contenders each year. It's not a bad thing to be a starting PG for middle of the read team that still make the playoff either, and we all know Lin can already do that. |
Lin is definately not a starting point guard for a contender. He's too inconsistent and his defense is average. |
Fisher 6.2/2.8
Chalmers 8.6/3.5
Billups 8.6/3.0
Hmm, de-ja vue. |
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Vin
Star Player
Joined: 03 Jan 2013
Posts: 6005
Location: France
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| HyperX wrote: | | zePokar wrote: | | Moonknight wrote: | | I don't get the argument of Lin is not a starting PG caliber player for a contender. He is not the worse starting PG in the game let alone in NBA history. So why wouldn't he be able to contribute as a starting PG for a championship contender? There is a different between contributing and being counted on as the 1st or 2nd option. Beside, there are only a few contenders each year. It's not a bad thing to be a starting PG for middle of the read team that still make the playoff either, and we all know Lin can already do that. |
Lin is definately not a starting point guard for a contender. He's too inconsistent and his defense is average. |
Fisher 6.2/2.8
Chalmers 8.6/3.5
Billups 8.6/3.0
Hmm, de-ja vue. |
Lin is too inconsistent. His handles aren't great and he isn't good off the ball. You need consistency wether it is 7ppg or 20ppg. You need a guy you can trust with the ball to make the simple play, to bring the ball up the court and I woud never trust him on theses championship possession to do that.
Say I'am the cavs, I take Fisher over him to play with Lebron. I take Cole, Chalmers, Beverly over him too.
Last edited by Vin on Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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bws94
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Joined: 28 Oct 2014
Posts: 1563
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| LilJay24 wrote: | | bws94 wrote: | | madddogg wrote: | | 13th Man wrote: | Wonder what's going on with Dragic, I can see him possibly being dealt back to the Rockets or perhaps even the Lakers?  |
Would take dragic. Dragic and Lin backcourt would be great. |
I want to see Lin as starter for the year. If it doesn't work, Dragic is a free agent. I don't want to see Lin backing up anyone at this stage of his career. |
Jeremy Lin isn't a starting PG on a contender (not saying we are anything close to a contender) so if we could get a player like Dragic, why wouldn't you want to see Lin as a backup because that's where he is headed after this season anyways unless he plays for another squad who misses the playoffs. |
We'll agree to disagree. J Lin can be a winning player and I hope by season's end he'll improve his aggressiveness and presence in the lineup to be a major factor in wins. I've seen him rise to the occasion too many times in both the playoffs and regular season late in games to not believe so. But I respect your opinion because as of now, he's not there. |
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HyperX
Sixth Man
Joined: 12 Nov 2014
Posts: 59
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| zePokar wrote: | | HyperX wrote: | | zePokar wrote: | | Moonknight wrote: | | I don't get the argument of Lin is not a starting PG caliber player for a contender. He is not the worse starting PG in the game let alone in NBA history. So why wouldn't he be able to contribute as a starting PG for a championship contender? There is a different between contributing and being counted on as the 1st or 2nd option. Beside, there are only a few contenders each year. It's not a bad thing to be a starting PG for middle of the read team that still make the playoff either, and we all know Lin can already do that. |
Lin is definately not a starting point guard for a contender. He's too inconsistent and his defense is average. |
Fisher 6.2/2.8
Chalmers 8.6/3.5
Billups 8.6/3.0
Hmm, de-ja vue. |
Lin is too inconsistent. His handles aren't great and he isn't good off the ball. You need consistency wether it is 7ppg or 20ppg. You need a guy you can trust with the ball to make the simple play, to bring the ball up the court and I woud never trust him on theses championship possession to do that.
Say I'am the cavs, I take Fisher over him to play with Lebron. I take Cole, Chalmers, Beverly over him too. |
I wouldn't. You do know Beverley turned the ball over to lose a playoff game right?
Last edited by HyperX on Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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bws94
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Joined: 28 Oct 2014
Posts: 1563
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| zePokar wrote: | | HyperX wrote: | | zePokar wrote: | | Moonknight wrote: | | I don't get the argument of Lin is not a starting PG caliber player for a contender. He is not the worse starting PG in the game let alone in NBA history. So why wouldn't he be able to contribute as a starting PG for a championship contender? There is a different between contributing and being counted on as the 1st or 2nd option. Beside, there are only a few contenders each year. It's not a bad thing to be a starting PG for middle of the read team that still make the playoff either, and we all know Lin can already do that. |
Lin is definately not a starting point guard for a contender. He's too inconsistent and his defense is average. |
Fisher 6.2/2.8
Chalmers 8.6/3.5
Billups 8.6/3.0
Hmm, de-ja vue. |
Lin is too inconsistent. His handles aren't great and he isn't good off the ball. You need consistency wether it is 7ppg or 20ppg. You need a guy you can trust with the ball to make the simple play, to bring the ball up the court and I woud never trust him on theses championship possession to do that.
Say I'am the cavs, I take Fisher over him to play with Lebron. I take Cole, Chalmers, Beverly over him too. |
Those are all inconsistent players too. Beverley is becoming more consistent but him trying to facilitate is ugly. He's not good without a facilitating guard next to him. Lin's handles can be improved just like he improved his left hand. His off-ball play can be improved as it was in Houston and can be more. Lin isn't all he can be yet. He started late, really age 23, and is still just developing his game. In this way, he's something like Nash in being a fairly late developer but for different reasons than Nash. But needs to work on handles under pressure in the off-season. |
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MorlockO
Starting Rotation
Joined: 20 Jul 2014
Posts: 184
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| zePokar wrote: | | HyperX wrote: | | zePokar wrote: | | Moonknight wrote: | | I don't get the argument of Lin is not a starting PG caliber player for a contender. He is not the worse starting PG in the game let alone in NBA history. So why wouldn't he be able to contribute as a starting PG for a championship contender? There is a different between contributing and being counted on as the 1st or 2nd option. Beside, there are only a few contenders each year. It's not a bad thing to be a starting PG for middle of the read team that still make the playoff either, and we all know Lin can already do that. |
Lin is definately not a starting point guard for a contender. He's too inconsistent and his defense is average. |
Fisher 6.2/2.8
Chalmers 8.6/3.5
Billups 8.6/3.0
Hmm, de-ja vue. |
Lin is too inconsistent. His handles aren't great and he isn't good off the ball. You need consistency wether it is 7ppg or 20ppg. You need a guy you can trust with the ball to make the simple play, to bring the ball up the court and I woud never trust him on theses championship possession to do that.
Say I'am the cavs, I take Fisher over him to play with Lebron. I take Cole, Chalmers, Beverly over him too. |
Fact is Lebron has never won a Championship without a 2nd play maker in the team. |
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Vin
Star Player
Joined: 03 Jan 2013
Posts: 6005
Location: France
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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I don't care what happened once.
The only way Lin is the starting point guard on a contending team is if he becomes good enough to be one of the star himself. Otherwise he'd always be stuck on the bench in a wierd role where he will look like a star some night and like a scrub some other.
My point is Lin isn't good enough to be a Lilliard, a Parker and he isn't a particularly good fit next too a superstar who's gonna handle the ball. Therefore in my opinion he's not a starter on a contending team.
Last edited by Vin on Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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MJST
Retired Number
Joined: 06 Jul 2014
Posts: 26309
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| angus wrote: | INTERESTING STAT:
Kobe is #25 in the NBA among qualified SGs in FG% (#26 Adjusted FG%). Basically about the worst among regular starters.
Lin is #4 FG% (real and adjusted) among all PGs in the NBA at .487.
Hmmm... does it take much coaching skill to think perhaps Kobe's chucking needs to be toned down a bit in the 4th, and some plays for Lin designed other than him having to make it happen himself, perhaps a pass BACK to him? |
Compare the shots Kobe gets to the shots Kobe gets Lin because he's drawing the defensive attention, and you shouldn't be surprised. |
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terpski
Sixth Man
Joined: 21 Nov 2014
Posts: 98
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| zePokar wrote: | | Moonknight wrote: | | I don't get the argument of Lin is not a starting PG caliber player for a contender. He is not the worse starting PG in the game let alone in NBA history. So why wouldn't he be able to contribute as a starting PG for a championship contender? There is a different between contributing and being counted on as the 1st or 2nd option. Beside, there are only a few contenders each year. It's not a bad thing to be a starting PG for middle of the read team that still make the playoff either, and we all know Lin can already do that. |
Lin is definately not a starting point guard for a contender. He's too inconsistent and his defense is average. |
True...but no doubt the dude can score. |
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purple.23
Starting Rotation
Joined: 11 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Lin needs to improve his jump shot. All top PGs have good jump shots. I think he needs to change his shooting form a little bit - having the ball a bit more in front so that he can see and aim the ball better. He currently shoots them almost like from the top of his head. |
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13th Man
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Joined: 10 Sep 2014
Posts: 1009
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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Noteable starting pgs in the NBA finals since 2000 that have comparable or worst season stats than Lin.
1999 Spurs - Avery Johnson 9.7/7.4
2000 Lakers - Ron Harper 7.0/3.4
2001 Lakers - Derek Fisher 11.5/4.4
2001 76ers - Eric Snow 9./7.4
2002 Lakers - Derek Fisher 11.2/.6
2006 Heat - Jason Williams 12.3/4.9
2007 Cavs - Eric Snow 4.2/4.0
2008 Lakers - Derek Fisher 11.7/2.9
2009 Lakers - Derek Fisher 9.9/3.2
2010 Lakers - Derek Fisher 7.5/2.5
2011 Heat - Mario Chalmers 6.4/2.5
2012 Heat - Mario Chalmers 9.8/3.5
2013 Heat - Mario Chalmers 8.6/3.5
2014 Heat - Mario Chalmers 9.8/4.9
So over the past 15 years, there are 14 instances of starting point guards with equal or worst stats than Lin that have appeared in the finals.
But Nope, Lin cannot play for a championship contender |
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Vin
Star Player
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Posts: 6005
Location: France
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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So you get your conclusions from looking at two stats ?
That is so ridiculous that I'am gonna leave it there. |
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JuanCesta
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Joined: 16 Nov 2014
Posts: 242
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| zePokar wrote: | So you get your conclusions from looking at two stats ?
That is so ridiculous that I'am gonna leave it there. |
Ok which stats are applicable in your opinion? Which did you use to reach your conclusion?
_________________
For the whole real truth about Jeremy Lin and his toxic tenure with Houston and Kevin Mchale to a new beginning with the Lakers read my post on Pg 108 in "Official Jeremy Lin thread" posted 11/20/14 at 7:39pm. |
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angus
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Joined: 31 Jul 2014
Posts: 253
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| JuanCesta wrote: | | zePokar wrote: | So you get your conclusions from looking at two stats ?
That is so ridiculous that I'am gonna leave it there. |
Ok which stats are applicable in your opinion? Which did you use to reach your conclusion? |
Lin detractors hate when you simply put up the stats. You crushed his point wiht the facts and there IS no rebuttal.
All the criticism of how he is so DEFINITELY not good enough to be a starter is laughable considering just these bottom line basics:
a) He is the #4 PG in the NBA right now in FG% and adjusted FG%
b) Last year he only trailed Lebron at the rim
c) During Linsanity he had the greatest start a starting PG ever had to prove he has it in him, and despite teams that did not appreciate or support him to this point (Scott just about a week ago said he was considering starting Price) his numbers improve yearly |
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MorlockO
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Posts: 184
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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This conversation here is getting out of hand...
Lin is the Lakers Starting point guard, Lets discuss that... |
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Vin
Star Player
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Posts: 6005
Location: France
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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My conclusions are Lin has the skillset to be a star but doesn't play like one and isn't a particularly good fit next to a superstar since he isn't great off the ball and his defense and handles are average. Therefore he isn't starting for a contender.
He can be a starting point guard on a bad team though and have nights where he looks like a star but playing for a championship is another thing. |
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13th Man
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Joined: 10 Sep 2014
Posts: 1009
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| zePokar wrote: | My conclusions are Lin has the skillset to be a star but doesn't play like one and isn't a particularly good fit next to a superstar since he isn't great off the ball and his defense and handles are average. Therefore he isn't starting for a contender.
He can be a starting point guard on a bad team though and have nights where he looks like a star but playing for a championship is another thing. |
You're entitled to your opinion but I've shown that 14 equal or lesser starting point guards have appeared in the finals in 15 years.
Last edited by 13th Man on Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Vin
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Posts: 6005
Location: France
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Yeah if you think ppg and apg tell the whole story there there is really not much else to talk about. |
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fadeaway3
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Posts: 345
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| zePokar wrote: | | HyperX wrote: | | zePokar wrote: | | Moonknight wrote: | | I don't get the argument of Lin is not a starting PG caliber player for a contender. He is not the worse starting PG in the game let alone in NBA history. So why wouldn't he be able to contribute as a starting PG for a championship contender? There is a different between contributing and being counted on as the 1st or 2nd option. Beside, there are only a few contenders each year. It's not a bad thing to be a starting PG for middle of the read team that still make the playoff either, and we all know Lin can already do that. |
Lin is definately not a starting point guard for a contender. He's too inconsistent and his defense is average. |
Fisher 6.2/2.8
Chalmers 8.6/3.5
Billups 8.6/3.0
Hmm, de-ja vue. |
Lin is too inconsistent. His handles aren't great and he isn't good off the ball. You need consistency wether it is 7ppg or 20ppg. You need a guy you can trust with the ball to make the simple play, to bring the ball up the court and I woud never trust him on theses championship possession to do that.
Say I'am the cavs, I take Fisher over him to play with Lebron. I take Cole, Chalmers, Beverly over him too. |
I agree with the inconsistent part but that's about it. His handles aren't Kryrie Iriving good, but its good enough. This isn't the And1 league or Rucker Park. I don't want a PG dribbling, dazzling around in a circle and take 20 seconds of the clock only to put up a brick. Lin needs a reliable jump shot then he'll be a complete offensive player.
Cole, Chalmers, and Beverly OVER LIN?????WOW!  NO WAY! |
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13th Man
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Joined: 10 Sep 2014
Posts: 1009
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| zePokar wrote: | | Yeah if you think ppg and apg tell the whole story there there is really not much else to talk about. |
Yeah we can dig deeper into ts% fg%, 3pt%, ft% but you probably don't want to go there. I'll concede that Lin's TO's, confidence and inconsistency is a liability though.
Last edited by 13th Man on Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:50 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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rtype
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Posts: 192
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| fadeaway3 wrote: | | Lin needs a reliable jump shot then he'll be a complete offensive player. |
o rilly? |
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fadeaway3
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| rtype wrote: | | fadeaway3 wrote: | | Lin needs a reliable jump shot then he'll be a complete offensive player. |
o rilly? |
Yes really! His inconsistency stems from the lack of a solid jumper. He's really good at driving to the hoop but when the defense collapse on him and he's not getting calls then he shuts down. With a solid jump shot the defense will have to respect that and he can blow by his opponents. |
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