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brunel
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 Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 11:58 am Post subject: |
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| B_P wrote: | Sorry if I missed the quote, but did Byron specifically tell the team to not shoot ANY 3's?
Or did he tell them to not rely on the 3 and/or to not shoot them as a first option - and that he wanted more drives and mid-range shots?
Is Byron specifically instructing the team to shoot long 2's? - or are we taking long 2's as a last resort because we don't have the legit 3-point shooters, nor the inside presence to open things up?? |
More likely this. Outside of offensive rebounds and put backs, I recall only a handful of offensive possessions where we ended up with something at the rim. And outside of Ellington, I don't know who would be shooting 3s anyway. |
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B_P
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | I didn't see the exact quote either. I am not a fan of shooting a lot of 3's, but you need to shoot at least a dozen or so a game. |
Totally.
I have nothing against 3's.
They're, obviously, a huge part of the game.
That's like being against the pass in football or being against going to the head in boxing.
I like balance.
You need the run to set up the pass.
You need body shots to open up head shots.
And you need an inside presence to open up high % 3-point shots.
Move the D, attack where the D made a mistake.
2's or 3's... if it's a good, high % shot, then take it.
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pjiddy
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| The quote is in the original post for those who missed it. |
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Gimme_the_rock
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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| pjiddy wrote: | | The quote is in the original post for those who missed it. |
You were right and I was wrong. And by right, I mean, B-Scott's approach is ridiculous.
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Weird. 4 preseason games now and we haven't been doing much attacking of the basket at all. |
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GoldenThroat
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| B_P wrote: | Sorry if I missed the quote, but did Byron specifically tell the team to not shoot ANY 3's?
Or did he tell them to not rely on the 3 and/or to not shoot them as a first option - and that he wanted more drives and mid-range shots?
Is Byron specifically instructing the team to shoot long 2's? - or are we taking long 2's as a last resort because we don't have the legit 3-point shooters, nor the inside presence to open things up?? |
The short answer is that the offense is designed to shoot long 2's. The location of our pindown screens and the fact that we have 3 players within 15 feet of the basket on most possessions make 3 point attempts unlikely, and dribble penetration toward a closed post (meaning that someone is in the post and in the way) is very difficult. The only option, most of the time, will be the mid to long range 2's.
This is by design. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | B_P wrote: | Sorry if I missed the quote, but did Byron specifically tell the team to not shoot ANY 3's?
Or did he tell them to not rely on the 3 and/or to not shoot them as a first option - and that he wanted more drives and mid-range shots?
Is Byron specifically instructing the team to shoot long 2's? - or are we taking long 2's as a last resort because we don't have the legit 3-point shooters, nor the inside presence to open things up?? |
The short answer is that the offense is designed to shoot long 2's. The location of our pindown screens and the fact that we have 3 players within 15 feet of the basket on most possessions make 3 point attempts unlikely, and dribble penetration toward a closed post (meaning that someone is in the post and in the way) is very difficult. The only option, most of the time, will be the mid to long range 2's.
This is by design. |
That's weird though. On the OP, Byron specifically stated that his desire is to attack the basket. We're not doing that. |
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GoldenThroat
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | B_P wrote: | Sorry if I missed the quote, but did Byron specifically tell the team to not shoot ANY 3's?
Or did he tell them to not rely on the 3 and/or to not shoot them as a first option - and that he wanted more drives and mid-range shots?
Is Byron specifically instructing the team to shoot long 2's? - or are we taking long 2's as a last resort because we don't have the legit 3-point shooters, nor the inside presence to open things up?? |
The short answer is that the offense is designed to shoot long 2's. The location of our pindown screens and the fact that we have 3 players within 15 feet of the basket on most possessions make 3 point attempts unlikely, and dribble penetration toward a closed post (meaning that someone is in the post and in the way) is very difficult. The only option, most of the time, will be the mid to long range 2's.
This is by design. |
That's weird though. On the OP, Byron specifically stated that his desire is to attack the basket. We're not doing that. |
And I want a pony. It doesn't mean someone's gonna buy me one. (Forgive me, not directed at you. I'm extremely irritated about this.)
We're not going to be able to attack the basket with this spacing. Players will occasionally get there on individual talent, but all of them will be diminished by this offense.
This is brief and not entirely accurate, but you'll get the idea. We're running a lot of this, except sometimes the SF is behind the arc.
http://www.online-basketball-drills.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/High-Post-Offense-2.png (pic is really big, otherwise I'd embed)
However, the placement of the PF & C are lower, usually right around the lane line, and the SG is starting is curl from the baseline. This is what's making that curl end up in the mid range, rather than behind the 3 point line, like it is in this pic.
Now, often times we're setting that double screen with our SF & C, and our PF is weak side, someone like Boozer. So if the PG drives to his left (which is already diminishing the frequency of drives, as righties don't drive that way as much as they do to their strong side), the help is already there. If he drives right, there are 6 other players there. Even after the pass is delivered to the SG, one of the screeners stays in the strong side post.
How exactly are we supposed to get to the basket when our own guys are in the way? |
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Gimme_the_rock
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: |
How exactly are we supposed to get to the basket when our own guys are in the way? |
Play harder?
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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^ Great post. And no offense taken =)
There's a lot that confuses me about this preseason. The 3s, the statement of attacking the basket but not follow through from the players, and whatever happened to having Kobe play out of the post? He's almost never there.
Maybe it's just me, but I still don't really feel like I have a grasp on what we're trying to do out there. Like, you watch the Knicks, and they are struggling to pick up the tri, but ok, they're trying to run the tri and they will use the preseason to get through the struggles.
What are we trying to do? Are the mid-range and long 2s by Scott's design, or the result of a team with little direction? |
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Jim99187
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Serena Winters @SerenaWinters 28m28 minutes ago
. @ BaxterHolmes asked Byron Scott about his 3-point philosophy: "I don't believe it wins championships, get's you to the playoffs." |
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GoldenThroat
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | ^ Great post. And no offense taken =)
There's a lot that confuses me about this preseason. The 3s, the statement of attacking the basket but not follow through from the players, and whatever happened to having Kobe play out of the post? He's almost never there.
Maybe it's just me, but I still don't really feel like I have a grasp on what we're trying to do out there. Like, you watch the Knicks, and they are struggling to pick up the tri, but ok, they're trying to run the tri and they will use the preseason to get through the struggles.
What are we trying to do? Are the mid-range and long 2s by Scott's design, or the result of a team with little direction? |
Quite honestly, I think that what we're trying to do are things that worked in a bygone era, with no consideration for what has changed since then. That type of action is a very mid-1980's type of set, when the 3 point line was there, but considered to be a last resort. The primary form of "getting to the basket" was actually a post entry pass, which your PF or C could do either off of screening action like that, or they could just mosey on down to the block with little resistance.
The illegal defense rules dictated that you had to be within arms length of the offensive player or actively going to help on someone else, so a guard or wing at 18-20 feet provided enough spacing for a post player to be effective. And since no one utilized the 3 point line as a spacing mechanism that yielded more points than long 2's, no advantage was lost by shooting a copious amount of mid range shots. Everyone did it.
However, in 2014, the Illegal Defense rules allow for considerably more help, and 3 point attempts go up every single year because, well, math. Here's the "old school" for you, about to teach these youngsters a thing or two about how basketball should be played.  |
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GoldenThroat
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Jim99187 wrote: | | Quote: | Serena Winters @SerenaWinters 28m28 minutes ago
. @ BaxterHolmes asked Byron Scott about his 3-point philosophy: "I don't believe it wins championships, get's you to the playoffs." |
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3-pointers are a byproduct of good spacing, not the goal. The goal is to get to the basket and compromise the defense. Get a layup, free throw attempts, or an open, stationary three. (bleep) this makes me so mad.  |
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ocho
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | Jim99187 wrote: | | Quote: | Serena Winters @SerenaWinters 28m28 minutes ago
. AT BaxterHolmes asked Byron Scott about his 3-point philosophy: "I don't believe it wins championships, get's you to the playoffs." |
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3-pointers are a byproduct of good spacing, not the goal. The goal is to get to the basket and compromise the defense. Get a layup, free throw attempts, or an open, stationary three. (bleep) this makes me so mad. http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/images/smileys/flingcomp.gif |
I mean does he really not know this? It's pretty basic stuff. |
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24KT
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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All part of the Lakers tanking without officially saying plan. Byron as the willing in-house hire makes perfect sense for this purpose.
Last edited by 24KT on Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Fruscas
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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Guess Byron didnt watch the Spurs, Heat and Mavs, the last few years...it's a shame.
My bold prediction is that Byron will struggle to stay until christmas if this brand of miserable basketball continues |
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tirebiter
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | Jim99187 wrote: | | Quote: | Serena Winters @SerenaWinters 28m28 minutes ago
. [AT] BaxterHolmes asked Byron Scott about his 3-point philosophy: "I don't believe it wins championships, get's you to the playoffs." |
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3-pointers are a byproduct of good spacing, not the goal. The goal is to get to the basket and compromise the defense. Get a layup, free throw attempts, or an open, stationary three. (bleep) this makes me so mad. http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/images/smileys/flingcomp.gif |
I mean does he really not know this? It's pretty basic stuff. |
he can't NOT know this, right? I'm giving him the benefit of doubt.
i get what he is trying to say (i think..) - that teams that rely upon 3 point shots might win enough games to get to the playoff, but will not win in the long haul. not sure if he meant to do this but it's almost dig at d'antoni, who's been to playoffs but haven't won anything in his career. |
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tirebiter
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Fruscas wrote: | Guess Byron didnt watch the Spurs, Heat and Mavs, the last few years...it's a shame.
My bold prediction is that Byron will struggle to stay until christmas if this brand of miserable basketball continues |
he will say that these teams attack the basket first to open up the 3's. and that's what he meant by his quote (i think). these teams don't rely on the 3 to be their primary offensive weapon, that without duncan's inside play and parker/ginobli attacking the basket, there wouldn't have been open 3's for leonard and green. same with miami. |
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pjiddy
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | Jim99187 wrote: | | Quote: | Serena Winters @SerenaWinters 28m28 minutes ago
. @ BaxterHolmes asked Byron Scott about his 3-point philosophy: "I don't believe it wins championships, get's you to the playoffs." |
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3-pointers are a byproduct of good spacing, not the goal. The goal is to get to the basket and compromise the defense. Get a layup, free throw attempts, or an open, stationary three. (bleep) this makes me so mad. http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/images/smileys/flingcomp.gif |
Thanks for all these explanations, GT. I feel like I get the value of the 3 in today's offense, but nothing near the levels you just explained it. All of this further redounds to my theory that Byron was a Lou Brown hiring. |
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Jim99187
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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| pjiddy wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | Jim99187 wrote: | | Quote: | Serena Winters @SerenaWinters 28m28 minutes ago
. -at- BaxterHolmes asked Byron Scott about his 3-point philosophy: "I don't believe it wins championships, get's you to the playoffs." |
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3-pointers are a byproduct of good spacing, not the goal. The goal is to get to the basket and compromise the defense. Get a layup, free throw attempts, or an open, stationary three. (bleep) this makes me so mad. http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/images/smileys/flingcomp.gif |
Thanks for all these explanations, GT. I feel like I get the value of the 3 in today's offense, but nothing near the levels you just explained it. All of this further redounds to my theory that Byron was a Lou Brown hiring. |
lakers messed it up pretty bad. instead of hiring the smartest mind they went the safe route and got a former laker thinking people will be forgiving.
the offense looks pathetic and Scott has no idea and needs to catch up with the current times |
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jonnybravo
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Jim99187 wrote: | | pjiddy wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | Jim99187 wrote: | | Quote: | Serena Winters @SerenaWinters 28m28 minutes ago
. -at- BaxterHolmes asked Byron Scott about his 3-point philosophy: "I don't believe it wins championships, get's you to the playoffs." |
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3-pointers are a byproduct of good spacing, not the goal. The goal is to get to the basket and compromise the defense. Get a layup, free throw attempts, or an open, stationary three. (bleep) this makes me so mad. http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/images/smileys/flingcomp.gif |
Thanks for all these explanations, GT. I feel like I get the value of the 3 in today's offense, but nothing near the levels you just explained it. All of this further redounds to my theory that Byron was a Lou Brown hiring. |
lakers messed it up pretty bad. instead of hiring the smartest mind they went the safe route and got a former laker thinking people will be forgiving.
the offense looks pathetic and Scott has no idea and needs to catch up with the current times |
There was and still is a LOUD contingent on LG that was against this hiring when his name was thrown into the hat. It's playing out like a lot of have predicted.
Canned coach speak? Check.
Pay homage to Showtime again, and again and again? Check.
Actual coaching? *Crickets*.
He's just here to shepherd the last two years of Kobe's contract. Management probably figured he has enough equity with the fan base to not get run out of town. |
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pjiddy
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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| tirebiter wrote: | | Fruscas wrote: | Guess Byron didnt watch the Spurs, Heat and Mavs, the last few years...it's a shame.
My bold prediction is that Byron will struggle to stay until christmas if this brand of miserable basketball continues |
he will say that these teams attack the basket first to open up the 3's. and that's what he meant by his quote (i think). these teams don't rely on the 3 to be their primary offensive weapon, that without duncan's inside play and parker/ginobli attacking the basket, there wouldn't have been open 3's for leonard and green. same with miami. |
The use of the term "rely" in this instance is disingenuous or uninformed. Even the 3-point happiest team last season--Houston--only used 33% of their shots on 3 pointers. Given their famous abhorrence of the midrange shot, that means something like 2/3s of their offense was near the basket. 30% of our FGAs last season were 3-pointers--about the same ratio as Miami last season. The same ratio as Dallas's Finals run (in case you think it doesn't work in playoffs, though it helps to make them at the insane rate they did).
There is a reliance to the extent that you need the near-constant threat of the 3-pointer at all times for good spacing, but this "live by the 3, die by the 3" cliche that gets invoked all the time is just that. Even the MDA-era Suns (the Exhibit A in all 3s-don't-win-titles symposiums) never used more than 30% of their attempts on 3-pointers. A good inside offense is the most crucial element of a team's offensive success, but it's impossible to be successful if that's all the defense has to defend.
Last edited by pjiddy on Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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Just for a point of reference, 7 of the last 8 title winners led all teams in the playoffs in 3s attempted and made. And most of them ran 1 in 4 out as well.
Byron seems intent on running a 3 in 2 half out offense where no one can get to the basket, no one is set at 3, and a lot of contested and on the move 2s.
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Drifts
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | Jim99187 wrote: | | Quote: | Serena Winters @SerenaWinters 28m28 minutes ago
. -at- BaxterHolmes asked Byron Scott about his 3-point philosophy: "I don't believe it wins championships, get's you to the playoffs." |
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3-pointers are a byproduct of good spacing, not the goal. The goal is to get to the basket and compromise the defense. Get a layup, free throw attempts, or an open, stationary three. (bleep) this makes me so mad. http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/images/smileys/flingcomp.gif |
exactly.. it's pretty depressing how Byron apparently doesn't get that.
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pjiddy
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Jim99187 wrote: | | pjiddy wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | Jim99187 wrote: | | Quote: | Serena Winters @SerenaWinters 28m28 minutes ago
. @ BaxterHolmes asked Byron Scott about his 3-point philosophy: "I don't believe it wins championships, get's you to the playoffs." |
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3-pointers are a byproduct of good spacing, not the goal. The goal is to get to the basket and compromise the defense. Get a layup, free throw attempts, or an open, stationary three. (bleep) this makes me so mad. http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/images/smileys/flingcomp.gif |
Thanks for all these explanations, GT. I feel like I get the value of the 3 in today's offense, but nothing near the levels you just explained it. All of this further redounds to my theory that Byron was a Lou Brown hiring. |
lakers messed it up pretty bad. instead of hiring the smartest mind they went the safe route and got a former laker thinking people will be forgiving.
the offense looks pathetic and Scott has no idea and needs to catch up with the current times |
I'm not going so far as to say they "messed up." The "smartest mind" (whoever you think that may be) might not have been interested in the position.
If the Lakers, throughout all their interviews with Byron, really thought they could succeed with him, it means they know as little about the today's game as he does, which would be mystifying if not outright alarming.
But if they figured their chances of competing are extremely limited regardless of who's coaching (which I agree with) and that keeping their pick this year would do the franchise more credit than a fruitless attempt to make the playoffs (agree again), and that hiring Byron was both the best face-saving hire (former Laker + Kobe stamp of a approval + more capital with fans) and simultaneously the best way to ensure they keep their pick...well that's a shrewd effing move and IMO the smartest one they could've made.
Last edited by pjiddy on Fri Oct 17, 2014 3:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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