Lakers' ball movement or lack thereof stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/team/passing/ _________________ "We have a lot of guys that have been kinda discarded ... Myself with the injury and the age. Jeremy ... a bunch of players who other teams really felt they had no use for. So we have that kind of attitude built into ourselves" -- Kobe Bryant
Ed Davis is the only speedy dude among the Lakers’ four rotation big men, but Byron Scott has these guys venturing out near the 3-point arc in a failed effort to contain pick-and-rolls. Good luck, Bob Sacre!
Carlos Boozer, Sacre, and Jordan Hill just aren’t capable of this; the Lakers’ league-worst defense would probably be better off if Scott adopted a more conservative style. Hill’s rim protection has been halfhearted, and the team’s starting lineup is getting absolutely torched.
I will say that they weren't jumping out that far for most of the season, only recently, but they still were playing too far out to really contain properly. They changed to this style because at least now the bigs are a speed bump rather than a welcome mat, and they're still missing the point- which is that they should be dropping back into the paint to play the percentages.
Ed Davis is the only speedy dude among the Lakers’ four rotation big men, but Byron Scott has these guys venturing out near the 3-point arc in a failed effort to contain pick-and-rolls. Good luck, Bob Sacre!
Carlos Boozer, Sacre, and Jordan Hill just aren’t capable of this; the Lakers’ league-worst defense would probably be better off if Scott adopted a more conservative style. Hill’s rim protection has been halfhearted, and the team’s starting lineup is getting absolutely torched.
I will say that they weren't jumping out that far for most of the season, only recently, but they still were playing too far out to really contain properly. They changed to this style because at least now the bigs are a speed bump rather than a welcome mat, and they're still missing the point- which is that they should be dropping back into the paint to play the percentages.
That's good stuff. Is that what you were referring to when you said the Big were coming up too much allowing inside penetration?
Ed Davis is the only speedy dude among the Lakers’ four rotation big men, but Byron Scott has these guys venturing out near the 3-point arc in a failed effort to contain pick-and-rolls. Good luck, Bob Sacre!
LAKERSHEDGE
Carlos Boozer, Sacre, and Jordan Hill just aren’t capable of this; the Lakers’ league-worst defense would probably be better off if Scott adopted a more conservative style. Hill’s rim protection has been halfhearted, and the team’s starting lineup is getting absolutely torched.
THANK YOU! I've been saying this in MULTIPLE THREADS! Sorry for the excitement but I've had to argue this very point which so clear. We over aggressively hedge with players who aren't able to. There's more than one way to hedge. We need to hedge the 45 degree and up technique with everyone who is not named Davis.
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:36 am Post subject:
Yeah- to give you an idea of how the Lakers PnR defense has evolved this year, take a look at these clips.
Notice where Hill is standing on the 1st PnR, outside the FT line. He doesn't do terribly here, but unfortunately Kobe overcommits to stopping the long 2 from Duncan. Usually, he's even further up and the other team can go right by and into the paint. Then later in the same video, look where Duncan, as good a big man defender there is but playing the same scheme, standing inside the FT line to contain penetration.
So after they kept giving up penetration game after game, they misdiagnose the problem by changing to this:
Jumping way out to slow down the ball handler and then try to recover. The problem is that the roll man is free to go to the basket, forcing a rotation, and the bigs are too slow to recover anywhere.
Then finally in the last game, they get the right idea and sag Hill and Booz back under the FT line:
You only see Davis, as the most mobile big man, jumping out. Hill and Boozer now stay in the paint, so that the wings can stay at home on the shooters instead of helping in the paint and forcing impossible rotations.
So hopefully the defense improves from here. Just wish it didn't take them so many games to make an adjustment they should have made in preseason. My guess is they just didn't trust the analytics that said they should give up the long 2 in the PnR.
Yeah- to give you an idea of how the Lakers PnR defense has evolved this year, take a look at these clips.
Notice where Hill is standing on the 1st PnR, outside the FT line. He doesn't do terribly here, but unfortunately Kobe overcommits to stopping the long 2 from Duncan. Usually, he's even further up and the other team can go right by and into the paint. Then later in the same video, look where Duncan, as good a big man defender there is but playing the same scheme, standing inside the FT line to contain penetration.
So after they kept giving up penetration game after game, they misdiagnose the problem by changing to this:
Jumping way out to slow down the ball handler and then try to recover. The problem is that the roll man is free to go to the basket, forcing a rotation, and the bigs are too slow to recover anywhere.
Then finally in the last game, they get the right idea and sag Hill and Booz back under the FT line:
You only see Davis, as the most mobile big man, jumping out. Hill and Boozer now stay in the paint, so that the wings can stay at home on the shooters instead of helping in the paint and forcing impossible rotations.
So hopefully the defense improves from here. Just wish it didn't take them so many games to make an adjustment they should have made in preseason. My guess is they just didn't trust the analytics that said they should give up the long 2 in the PnR.
Good stuff, again. Thanks. I'm not a basketball expert so this type of breakdown definitely helps me. I do like the adjustment of sagging off to protect against penetration.
The thing I noticed though, and I may be complete off base, is that when Boozer and or Hill are protecting the paint there is just not enough length, size, to protect the rim at even a decent level. Boozer looks horrible out there as well; slow, no length, no size, etc. It'd probably help if he played less...
Also, some of the rotations looked sharper...I actually seen some Lakers defender rotate quickly and have hands in people's face when they shot...it looks like it's coming along even if very, very slowly.
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90307 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:27 pm Post subject:
Inigo Montoya wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
.... My guess is they just didn't trust the analytics that said they should give up the long 2 in the PnR.
Had to delurk to compliment you on your sad and yet hilarious guess.
How is the search for the six fingered man going? _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 5:04 pm Post subject:
lukewaltonsdad wrote:
The thing I noticed though, and I may be complete off base, is that when Boozer and or Hill are protecting the paint there is just not enough length, size, to protect the rim at even a decent level. Boozer looks horrible out there as well; slow, no length, no size, etc. It'd probably help if he played less...
Boozer, probably. Hill showed what he's capable of with his timely blocks on Lowry in the last game.
Inigo Montoya wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
.... My guess is they just didn't trust the analytics that said they should give up the long 2 in the PnR.
Had to delurk to compliment you on your sad and yet hilarious guess.
Not sure what's particularly sad or hilarious about it, but glad I could get you to delurk.
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90307 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 7:58 pm Post subject:
Inigo Montoya wrote:
24 wrote:
How is the search for the six fingered man going?
I cannot find him... it's been twenty years now and I'm starting to lose confidence.
Well, I certainly hope you find him... _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel
We've been running a lot more High Post action as of late, and running it well, with much better concepts than the poisonous pindowns that marred the beginning of the season. I'd like to see more High Post Split action with Lin & Kobe (where they cut after delivering the pass & use the high post as a rub screen), but I still generally like what we're doing. The Johnson And-1 dunk last night came off of an overload look w/this. Hill is properly positioned on the weak side of the overload, which allows for Johnson to get to the hoop. Far too often earlier in the season, our 5's were positioned strong side, killing any hopes of penetration.
I think Randle would be KILLING IT in this action, in place of Boozer, and with the overload on the other side. Oh well.
BTW, that play is also indicative of why it's so important for Kobe to draw the attention of a second defender. Watch Drummond throughout the entire play. Help & Recover is a (bleep) sometimes.
BTW, that play is also indicative of why it's so important for Kobe to draw the attention of a second defender. Watch Drummond throughout the entire play. Help & Recover is a (bleep) sometimes.
BTW, that play is also indicative of why it's so important for Kobe to draw the attention of a second defender. Watch Drummond throughout the entire play. Help & Recover is a (bleep) sometimes.
Drummond had to run about a mile on that play
He just recovered to the wrong guy. That's part of the advantage of the overload. Against a conventional set, Drummond's recovery is is back to the paint, and Smith would bounce back out to the perimeter guy on the left side of the court. In this instance, there is no one there, so Smith stays and Drummond's supposed to recover to the corner. You can see Smith telling Drummond to go do that and Drummond's "oh (bleep)" moment, but it's too late. That's either an open 3 or a drive to the basket. That play actually makes me like Drummond even more though. He's trying his ass off the entire play and actually does chase Johnson off of the 3 point line, but he just made the wrong decision in the first place.
Those overloads can't be your primary look, because the spacing isn't great. But when used as a counter, they can cause confusion like they did here. I've been extremely critical of Scott, but I gotta give credit where credit it do. This is a well conceived set.
BTW, that play is also indicative of why it's so important for Kobe to draw the attention of a second defender. Watch Drummond throughout the entire play. Help & Recover is a (bleep) sometimes.
Drummond had to run about a mile on that play
He just recovered to the wrong guy. That's part of the advantage of the overload. Against a conventional set, Drummond's recovery is is back to the paint, and Smith would bounce back out to the perimeter guy on the left side of the court. In this instance, there is no one there, so Smith stays and Drummond's supposed to recover to the corner. You can see Smith telling Drummond to go do that and Drummond's "oh (bleep)" moment, but it's too late. That's either an open 3 or a drive to the basket. That play actually makes me like Drummond even more though. He's trying his ass off the entire play and actually does chase Johnson off of the 3 point line, but he just made the wrong decision in the first place.
Those overloads can't be your primary look, because the spacing isn't great. But when used as a counter, they can cause confusion like they did here. I've been extremely critical of Scott, but I gotta give credit where credit it do. This is a well conceived set.
Thanks for the explanation GT. I agree, drummond's effort was superb even if he made a mistake. Watching him trying to stomp on the brakes as he closed out was hilarious
BTW, that play is also indicative of why it's so important for Kobe to draw the attention of a second defender. Watch Drummond throughout the entire play. Help & Recover is a (bleep) sometimes.
Drummond had to run about a mile on that play
He just recovered to the wrong guy. That's part of the advantage of the overload. Against a conventional set, Drummond's recovery is is back to the paint, and Smith would bounce back out to the perimeter guy on the left side of the court. In this instance, there is no one there, so Smith stays and Drummond's supposed to recover to the corner. You can see Smith telling Drummond to go do that and Drummond's "oh (bleep)" moment, but it's too late. That's either an open 3 or a drive to the basket. That play actually makes me like Drummond even more though. He's trying his ass off the entire play and actually does chase Johnson off of the 3 point line, but he just made the wrong decision in the first place.
Those overloads can't be your primary look, because the spacing isn't great. But when used as a counter, they can cause confusion like they did here. I've been extremely critical of Scott, but I gotta give credit where credit it do. This is a well conceived set.
Thanks for the explanation GT. I agree, drummond's effort was superb even if he made a mistake. Watching him trying to stomp on the brakes as he closed out was hilarious
That's actually how closeouts are taught, except his left hand should be up too. You sprint 3/4 of the way there and foot chop the last 1/4.
Greg McDermott (Creighton coach, Doug's dad) explained to me over the summer that he teaches 3 types of closeouts, with the following names.
Korver Closeout - Sprint more than 3/4 of the way, and toward the shooting hand side. Make him put it on the floor.
Rondo Closeout - Sprint about 1/2 of the way the there, and stop your closeout at the 3/4 mark. Dare him to shoot it.
Kobe Closeout - Conventional 3/4 to 1/4 closeout, because he can beat you either way.
BTW, that play is also indicative of why it's so important for Kobe to draw the attention of a second defender. Watch Drummond throughout the entire play. Help & Recover is a (bleep) sometimes.
Drummond had to run about a mile on that play
He just recovered to the wrong guy. That's part of the advantage of the overload. Against a conventional set, Drummond's recovery is is back to the paint, and Smith would bounce back out to the perimeter guy on the left side of the court. In this instance, there is no one there, so Smith stays and Drummond's supposed to recover to the corner. You can see Smith telling Drummond to go do that and Drummond's "oh (bleep)" moment, but it's too late. That's either an open 3 or a drive to the basket. That play actually makes me like Drummond even more though. He's trying his ass off the entire play and actually does chase Johnson off of the 3 point line, but he just made the wrong decision in the first place.
Those overloads can't be your primary look, because the spacing isn't great. But when used as a counter, they can cause confusion like they did here. I've been extremely critical of Scott, but I gotta give credit where credit it do. This is a well conceived set.
Thanks for the explanation GT. I agree, drummond's effort was superb even if he made a mistake. Watching him trying to stomp on the brakes as he closed out was hilarious
That's actually how closeouts are taught, except his left hand should be up too. You sprint 3/4 of the way there and foot chop the last 1/4.
Greg McDermott (Creighton coach, Doug's dad) explained to me over the summer that he teaches 3 types of closeouts, with the following names.
Korver Closeout - Sprint more than 3/4 of the way, and toward the shooting hand side. Make him put it on the floor.
Rondo Closeout - Sprint about 1/2 of the way the there, and stop your closeout at the 3/4 mark. Dare him to shoot it.
Kobe Closeout - Conventional 3/4 to 1/4 closeout, because he can beat you either way.
Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 4:06 pm Post subject: Would a Johnson-Lin pick-and-roll work?
I posted this in another thread but didn't get any feedback. I'm not an expert, so I'm looking to learn.
--------------
I'm not a basketball expert, but with the team we have a Johnson-Lin p'n'r could be crazy enough to work when the starters are on the floor.
Here's my thinking.
1. Our bigs (Hill & Boozer) don't seem like p'n'r guys, but they like to shoot the 18~20 ft jumper so they can provide floor spacing.
2. Wesley can definitely elevate and play above the rim so he would have an advantage over any SF defending him. He can also roll away from the basket and hit the 3.
3. Lin is good at throwing the baby lobs to the guy rolling to the basket. He can do this with Ed Davis, so he could likely do this with Johnson as well.
4. If the p'n'r is defended, they can always outlet to Kobe who should now have some space to work with.
I figure this is a way to get the most out of Wesley's athletic ability.
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:36 pm Post subject: Re: Would a Johnson-Lin pick-and-roll work?
infinite-loop wrote:
I posted this in another thread but didn't get any feedback. I'm not an expert, so I'm looking to learn.
--------------
I'm not a basketball expert, but with the team we have a Johnson-Lin p'n'r could be crazy enough to work when the starters are on the floor.
Here's my thinking.
1. Our bigs (Hill & Boozer) don't seem like p'n'r guys, but they like to shoot the 18~20 ft jumper so they can provide floor spacing.
2. Wesley can definitely elevate and play above the rim so he would have an advantage over any SF defending him. He can also roll away from the basket and hit the 3.
3. Lin is good at throwing the baby lobs to the guy rolling to the basket. He can do this with Ed Davis, so he could likely do this with Johnson as well.
4. If the p'n'r is defended, they can always outlet to Kobe who should now have some space to work with.
I figure this is a way to get the most out of Wesley's athletic ability.
Thoughts?
I think the result would be the other team packing the paint so that Wes can't roll to the rim, and a lot of Hill and Boozer jump shots. They can hit them, but actually their percentage on the season isn't good enough for a first option. Lin and Wes are the only starters who can hit a decent % from 3, and this removes them as threats from there.
Nice post. Somehow I missed it the first time around. So I'll give it a sticky.
Here's a video I posted a while back of Cleveland's offense with Scott. Scott has been heading in the same direction. Obviously, having Kobe and different talent will change some things, but you can compare with the above:
I don't totally agree with the BBall Breakdown that you need to go full Princeton or full Triangle for success. A lot of offenses use bits and pieces of these successfully. It just depends on the talent and coaches on whether or not you can be effective.
A ton of pindown screens and handoffs in that video. That isn't a problem in and of itself, but...
1) The guards should be either curling to the basket or fading to the 3 point line.
2) The screeners need to roll off of the screens in a "read opposite" fashion in order to be scoring threats. (one rolls toward the basket or seals to the right while the other pops left, or vice versa)
Otherwise, it's a recipe for long 2's, which you see a ton of in that video. The down screeners are clearly just down screeners here, and aren't a threat to score off of a roll or a slip screen. This is archaic stuff and I'm really discouraged by it.
Totally agree.
As always: it's about doing the little things.
I think the way that I'd characterize it is that it's about putting everyone in position to be a threat. This is what Popovich does best in the design of his offensive sets. I can only speak in generalities without accompanying visuals, but if you're taking one thing away, BY DEFINITION you're giving something else up. It's just a matter of having someone in the place to be able to exploit that.
One of the best threads on this board
How will BScott utilize most of the players on this roster who only excel in one maybe two offensive skills
What are the best options for PG on the 2nd team seemingly between Price and Clarkson to trigger the offensive while forcing the opposing PGs to actually guard our man
Given Boozer's continuing defensive inefficiencies, does this force BScott to utilize him more to extricate more value and reason on why he is on the court?
Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:37 pm Post subject: Re: Would a Johnson-Lin pick-and-roll work?
infinite-loop wrote:
I posted this in another thread but didn't get any feedback. I'm not an expert, so I'm looking to learn.
--------------
I'm not a basketball expert, but with the team we have a Johnson-Lin p'n'r could be crazy enough to work when the starters are on the floor.
Here's my thinking.
1. Our bigs (Hill & Boozer) don't seem like p'n'r guys, but they like to shoot the 18~20 ft jumper so they can provide floor spacing.
2. Wesley can definitely elevate and play above the rim so he would have an advantage over any SF defending him. He can also roll away from the basket and hit the 3.
3. Lin is good at throwing the baby lobs to the guy rolling to the basket. He can do this with Ed Davis, so he could likely do this with Johnson as well.
4. If the p'n'r is defended, they can always outlet to Kobe who should now have some space to work with.
I figure this is a way to get the most out of Wesley's athletic ability.
Thoughts?
Problem here is that with small-small pnr the defense can just switch, and I don't really expect either Wes or Jeremy to be able to exploit any advantages those switches might give them. fiendishoc's point that jeremy and wes are our two best spot up shooters is also correct, without them off ball in corners, the defense can really pack it in. If you ran out a lineup of lin young bryant johnson hill (as has been done many times recently) then it could maybe work, but again, the problem is hill's man will be in the paint and they can just switch on that p/r without sacrificing much.
And not to oversimplify it, but in order to run a good PnR, you have to set a good on ball screen in the first place, which I don't think Johnson can do consistently.
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