Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:19 am Post subject:
LakersRGolden wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
Having the PG come out of the corner rather than the SF is the easiest adjustment to make if you want more than just a long jumpshot out of it. Second, I don't recall them flowing into anything else if the high post is being denied. Usually, they'll either try and try, and then give up and reset. If they do get it in the high post, the only variety I see is that sometimes they don't hand it off and then the guard runs over to the weak side to come off a double screen there. The result of that action is also often a long 2, which is not good either.
I've posted this video several times before, but I figure it's relevant here:
Notice Rubio is the one coming out of the corner, not Brewer, who, like Wes, is a finisher not a creator. And then after about a minute in, you start to see counter actions when entries are being denied.
It's so weird seeing double screens and cutters.
I think I'll drop my cable subscription now.....
Watch this first possession to really make yourself cry
Having the PG come out of the corner rather than the SF is the easiest adjustment to make if you want more than just a long jumpshot out of it. Second, I don't recall them flowing into anything else if the high post is being denied. Usually, they'll either try and try, and then give up and reset. If they do get it in the high post, the only variety I see is that sometimes they don't hand it off and then the guard runs over to the weak side to come off a double screen there. The result of that action is also often a long 2, which is not good either.
I've posted this video several times before, but I figure it's relevant here:
Notice Rubio is the one coming out of the corner, not Brewer, who, like Wes, is a finisher not a creator. And then after about a minute in, you start to see counter actions when entries are being denied.
Thanks for the video
I have seen JLin sporadically successful in this type of action (though often he and/or the screener(s) are sloppy in their execution and Price attempt to do this kind of action.
Amazing how different the offense functions with Kobe as the PG.
Maybe one change BScott is considering is to use JLin (as SG) and Kobe together. JLin seemingly has a dependable jump shot that is comparable Ellington and definitely a better ball handler - especially since JLin has not been consistent leading the 2nd team. It does provide numerous other dilemmas for BScott to consider with a roster of consistently inconsistent players (albeit hard-working) that have not yet shown the necessary abilities to know how to execute when the game is on the line.
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:34 am Post subject:
I've updated the season splits to include the start of the Tarik Black era (Does not include Pelicans game). Also, average opponent ratings are up to date now as well.
Lakers Advanced Stats by Season Split
Code:
Section GP Record OffRtg DefRtg NetRtg AST% AST/TO AST Ratio OREB% DREB% REB% TO Ratio eFG% TS% PACE
A 10 1-9 103.6 114.7 -11.1 53.3 1.52 15 28.6 72.6 48.5 13.2 46.2 51.7 97.88
B 6 2-4 106.3 112.6 -6.4 50.8 1.66 15.7 28 74.8 50.3 12.6 49.7 53.2 96.17
C 4 2-2 104.9 105.2 -0.3 50.3 1.61 15 20.3 73.2 46.5 12.1 49.7 53.6 100.68
D 7 3-4 100.3 105.6 -5.3 58.8 2 16.3 24 74.4 47.7 10.9 45.5 49.8 96.85
E 9 3-6 102.9 108 -5.1 57.6 1.64 17 23.3 74.4 49.2 13.8 50.1 53.3 97.36
F 6 1-5 97.0 102.2 -5.3 59.5 1.28 16 25.5 79.3 52.3 16.5 46.7 51.0 95.62
Average Opponent Ratings & Lakers Off/Def performance vs Avg Opponent Ratings
Code:
Bet Off Def Net Off+- Def+- Net+-
A +9 106 101 4.9 2 8 -6
B +6 105 103 1.4 3 8 -5
C +5 104 103 1.0 2 1 1
D +4 102 104 -1.9 -4 3 -7
E +8 106 102 4.0 1 2 -1
F +5 104 104 -0.7 -7 -2 -6
Reference
Code:
Section A: Start of the season, before Nick Young returned
Section B: Nick Young returns from injury
Section C: Team adopts a more conservative defensive philosophy
Section D: Boozer and Lin moved to the bench, Davis and Price become starters
Section E: Kobe begins to sit out nights, and plays the facilitator role when he returns
Section F: Tarik Black plays his first meaningful minutes for the team
OffRtg: Points scored per 100 possessions
DefRtg: Points allowed per 100 possessions
PACE: Possessions per 48 minutes
Off+-: Lakers offensive rating minus average opponent defensive rating
Def+-: Lakers defensive rating minus average opponent offensive rating
Net+-: Off+- minus Def+- (Net Rtg adjusted for strength of schedule)
Bet: Avg betting spread from Teamrankings
Fiend with the stats youve crunched so far. What does the numbers tell you as the "ideal" Laker lineup/strategy? I can make my own guess but im wondering if they're close to what you've sussed out.
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:47 pm Post subject:
Slicer wrote:
Fiend with the stats youve crunched so far. What does the numbers tell you as the "ideal" Laker lineup/strategy? I can make my own guess but im wondering if they're close to what you've sussed out.
There were only really two starting lineups to compare. The best stretch came with the new defensive scheme and Lin, Kobe, Wes, Hill, and Boozer, although that wouldn't have been my ideal lineup. This was section C, where they played like an average NBA team, and the defense held up at 105 points given up per 100 possessions. The other section where they were OK was E, with Price and Davis, taking into account the strength of schedule, but that was because Price was hitting shots. In D and F, when he wasn't the offense tanked again.
I would have let lineup and scheme C run to see if they could maintain the defensive efficiency, rather than to immediately blow it up with the lineup change.
Fiend with the stats youve crunched so far. What does the numbers tell you as the "ideal" Laker lineup/strategy? I can make my own guess but im wondering if they're close to what you've sussed out.
There were only really two starting lineups to compare. The best stretch came with the new defensive scheme and Lin, Kobe, Wes, Hill, and Boozer, although that wouldn't have been my ideal lineup. This was section C, where they played like an average NBA team, and the defense held up at 105 points given up per 100 possessions. The other section where they were OK was E, with Price and Davis, taking into account the strength of schedule, but that was because Price was hitting shots. In D and F, when he wasn't the offense tanked again.
I would have let lineup and scheme C run to see if they could maintain the defensive efficiency, rather than to immediately blow it up with the lineup change.
Interesting
Do you have stat sheets that compare Lineup C to D & F (was that with Kobe on the court)?
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:37 pm Post subject:
A Mad Chinaman wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
Slicer wrote:
Fiend with the stats youve crunched so far. What does the numbers tell you as the "ideal" Laker lineup/strategy? I can make my own guess but im wondering if they're close to what you've sussed out.
There were only really two starting lineups to compare. The best stretch came with the new defensive scheme and Lin, Kobe, Wes, Hill, and Boozer, although that wouldn't have been my ideal lineup. This was section C, where they played like an average NBA team, and the defense held up at 105 points given up per 100 possessions. The other section where they were OK was E, with Price and Davis, taking into account the strength of schedule, but that was because Price was hitting shots. In D and F, when he wasn't the offense tanked again.
I would have let lineup and scheme C run to see if they could maintain the defensive efficiency, rather than to immediately blow it up with the lineup change.
Interesting
Do you have stat sheets that compare Lineup C to D & F (was that with Kobe on the court)?
C was the same starting lineup as the beginning of the season:
C. Boozer ▪ K. Bryant ▪ J. Hill ▪ W. Johnson ▪ J. Lin (4 games)
D was:
K. Bryant ▪ E. Davis ▪ J. Hill ▪ W. Johnson ▪ R. Price (7 games)
E was:
E. Davis ▪ W. Ellington ▪ J. Hill ▪ W. Johnson ▪ R. Price (4 games)
K. Bryant ▪ E. Davis ▪ J. Hill ▪ W. Johnson ▪ R. Price (4 games)
K. Bryant ▪ E. Davis ▪ W. Ellington ▪ J. Hill ▪ J. Lin
F was:
E. Davis ▪ W. Ellington ▪ J. Hill ▪ R. Kelly ▪ R. Price (1 game)
E. Davis ▪ W. Ellington ▪ J. Hill ▪ W. Johnson ▪ R. Price (1 game)
K. Bryant ▪ E. Davis ▪ J. Hill ▪ W. Johnson ▪ R. Price (2 games)
E. Davis ▪ W. Ellington ▪ J. Hill ▪ W. Johnson ▪ J. Lin (2 games)
Fiend with the stats youve crunched so far. What does the numbers tell you as the "ideal" Laker lineup/strategy? I can make my own guess but im wondering if they're close to what you've sussed out.
There were only really two starting lineups to compare. The best stretch came with the new defensive scheme and Lin, Kobe, Wes, Hill, and Boozer, although that wouldn't have been my ideal lineup. This was section C, where they played like an average NBA team, and the defense held up at 105 points given up per 100 possessions. The other section where they were OK was E, with Price and Davis, taking into account the strength of schedule, but that was because Price was hitting shots. In D and F, when he wasn't the offense tanked again.
I would have let lineup and scheme C run to see if they could maintain the defensive efficiency, rather than to immediately blow it up with the lineup change.
Interesting
Do you have stat sheets that compare Lineup C to D & F (was that with Kobe on the court)?
C was the same starting lineup as the beginning of the season:
C. Boozer ▪ K. Bryant ▪ J. Hill ▪ W. Johnson ▪ J. Lin (4 games)
D was:
K. Bryant ▪ E. Davis ▪ J. Hill ▪ W. Johnson ▪ R. Price (7 games)
E was:
E. Davis ▪ W. Ellington ▪ J. Hill ▪ W. Johnson ▪ R. Price (4 games)
K. Bryant ▪ E. Davis ▪ J. Hill ▪ W. Johnson ▪ R. Price (4 games)
K. Bryant ▪ E. Davis ▪ W. Ellington ▪ J. Hill ▪ J. Lin
F was:
E. Davis ▪ W. Ellington ▪ J. Hill ▪ R. Kelly ▪ R. Price (1 game)
E. Davis ▪ W. Ellington ▪ J. Hill ▪ W. Johnson ▪ R. Price (1 game)
K. Bryant ▪ E. Davis ▪ J. Hill ▪ W. Johnson ▪ R. Price (2 games)
E. Davis ▪ W. Ellington ▪ J. Hill ▪ W. Johnson ▪ J. Lin (2 games)
Thanks a lot!
Are the efficiency stats during the 4th quarter of the lineups listed above available?
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 12:04 am Post subject:
A Mad Chinaman wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
A Mad Chinaman wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
Slicer wrote:
Fiend with the stats youve crunched so far. What does the numbers tell you as the "ideal" Laker lineup/strategy? I can make my own guess but im wondering if they're close to what you've sussed out.
There were only really two starting lineups to compare. The best stretch came with the new defensive scheme and Lin, Kobe, Wes, Hill, and Boozer, although that wouldn't have been my ideal lineup. This was section C, where they played like an average NBA team, and the defense held up at 105 points given up per 100 possessions. The other section where they were OK was E, with Price and Davis, taking into account the strength of schedule, but that was because Price was hitting shots. In D and F, when he wasn't the offense tanked again.
I would have let lineup and scheme C run to see if they could maintain the defensive efficiency, rather than to immediately blow it up with the lineup change.
Interesting
Do you have stat sheets that compare Lineup C to D & F (was that with Kobe on the court)?
C was the same starting lineup as the beginning of the season:
C. Boozer ▪ K. Bryant ▪ J. Hill ▪ W. Johnson ▪ J. Lin (4 games)
D was:
K. Bryant ▪ E. Davis ▪ J. Hill ▪ W. Johnson ▪ R. Price (7 games)
E was:
E. Davis ▪ W. Ellington ▪ J. Hill ▪ W. Johnson ▪ R. Price (4 games)
K. Bryant ▪ E. Davis ▪ J. Hill ▪ W. Johnson ▪ R. Price (4 games)
K. Bryant ▪ E. Davis ▪ W. Ellington ▪ J. Hill ▪ J. Lin
F was:
E. Davis ▪ W. Ellington ▪ J. Hill ▪ R. Kelly ▪ R. Price (1 game)
E. Davis ▪ W. Ellington ▪ J. Hill ▪ W. Johnson ▪ R. Price (1 game)
K. Bryant ▪ E. Davis ▪ J. Hill ▪ W. Johnson ▪ R. Price (2 games)
E. Davis ▪ W. Ellington ▪ J. Hill ▪ W. Johnson ▪ J. Lin (2 games)
Thanks a lot!
Are the efficiency stats during the 4th quarter of the lineups listed above available?
Fiend with the stats youve crunched so far. What does the numbers tell you as the "ideal" Laker lineup/strategy? I can make my own guess but im wondering if they're close to what you've sussed out.
There were only really two starting lineups to compare. The best stretch came with the new defensive scheme and Lin, Kobe, Wes, Hill, and Boozer, although that wouldn't have been my ideal lineup. This was section C, where they played like an average NBA team, and the defense held up at 105 points given up per 100 possessions. The other section where they were OK was E, with Price and Davis, taking into account the strength of schedule, but that was because Price was hitting shots. In D and F, when he wasn't the offense tanked again.
I would have let lineup and scheme C run to see if they could maintain the defensive efficiency, rather than to immediately blow it up with the lineup change.
Interesting
Do you have stat sheets that compare Lineup C to D & F (was that with Kobe on the court)?
C was the same starting lineup as the beginning of the season:
C. Boozer ▪ K. Bryant ▪ J. Hill ▪ W. Johnson ▪ J. Lin (4 games)
D was:
K. Bryant ▪ E. Davis ▪ J. Hill ▪ W. Johnson ▪ R. Price (7 games)
E was:
E. Davis ▪ W. Ellington ▪ J. Hill ▪ W. Johnson ▪ R. Price (4 games)
K. Bryant ▪ E. Davis ▪ J. Hill ▪ W. Johnson ▪ R. Price (4 games)
K. Bryant ▪ E. Davis ▪ W. Ellington ▪ J. Hill ▪ J. Lin
F was:
E. Davis ▪ W. Ellington ▪ J. Hill ▪ R. Kelly ▪ R. Price (1 game)
E. Davis ▪ W. Ellington ▪ J. Hill ▪ W. Johnson ▪ R. Price (1 game)
K. Bryant ▪ E. Davis ▪ J. Hill ▪ W. Johnson ▪ R. Price (2 games)
E. Davis ▪ W. Ellington ▪ J. Hill ▪ W. Johnson ▪ J. Lin (2 games)
Thanks a lot!
Are the efficiency stats during the 4th quarter of the lineups listed above available?
And filter by 4th quarters, or just jump to the clutch stats. For the different season segments, here are the dates:
A: Oct 28 - Nov 16
B: Nov 18 - 28
C: Nov 30 - Dec 5
D: Dec 7 - 21
E: Dec 23 - Jan 7
F: Jan 9 - 19
Did not know this site
The link led me to team stats, having problems getting individual players (Price and JLin) and the team's production while they were in. Understand the complexity when factoring in the players that are on the court with them
Since pace no longer has to be slowed to preserve Kobe for the rest of this season, could a run and gun spread pick and roll offense work for Lakers this year (if they actually wanted to win games and see what Lin could or could not do for team in future)?
Lin
Clarkson
Swaggy P
Ryan Kelly
Ed Davis
Byron Scott apparently tried to run whenever he could with Jason Kidd and Nets, so presumably he knows how to deploy a team like that:
If nothing else, at least games would be entertaining to watch. Team already gets overpowered by teams with big front lines (Dwight Howard on Rockets; DeAndre Jordan and Blake Griffith on Clippers), so it's not like Kelly and Davis front line would ultimately be that much different, and I guess Lakers could sub in Tarik Black for Ed Davis now and then if need be.
Could a lineup like that work for rest of this season?
(I guess it would be like Lakers running what they might envision as their second unit in future against other teams starters for rest of this season)
Since pace no longer has to be slowed to preserve Kobe for the rest of this season, could a run and gun spread pick and roll offense work for Lakers this year (if they actually wanted to win games and see what Lin could or could not do for team in future)?
Lin
Clarkson
Swaggy P
Ryan Kelly
Ed Davis
Byron Scott apparently tried to run whenever he could with Jason Kidd and Nets, so presumably he knows how to deploy a team like that:
If nothing else, at least games would be entertaining to watch. Team already gets overpowered by teams with big front lines (Dwight Howard on Rockets; DeAndre Jordan and Blake Griffith on Clippers), so it's not like Kelly and Davis front line would ultimately be that much different, and I guess Lakers could sub in Tarik Black for Ed Davis now and then if need be.
Could a lineup like that work for rest of this season?
(I guess it would be like Lakers running what they might envision as their second unit in future against other teams starters for rest of this season)
If you can't get defensive stops, you can't run...
Since pace no longer has to be slowed to preserve Kobe for the rest of this season, could a run and gun spread pick and roll offense work for Lakers this year (if they actually wanted to win games and see what Lin could or could not do for team in future)?
Lin
Clarkson
Swaggy P
Ryan Kelly
Ed Davis
Byron Scott apparently tried to run whenever he could with Jason Kidd and Nets, so presumably he knows how to deploy a team like that:
If nothing else, at least games would be entertaining to watch. Team already gets overpowered by teams with big front lines (Dwight Howard on Rockets; DeAndre Jordan and Blake Griffith on Clippers), so it's not like Kelly and Davis front line would ultimately be that much different, and I guess Lakers could sub in Tarik Black for Ed Davis now and then if need be.
Could a lineup like that work for rest of this season?
(I guess it would be like Lakers running what they might envision as their second unit in future against other teams starters for rest of this season)
If you can't get defensive stops, you can't run...
BUt we have the DPOY head of the snake Ronnie Price...sry couldn't help it
I dunno with both Davis and Black on the floor our front court is looking pretty good from a defensive stand point.
I'll break down why there is such a stark contrast in ball movement and teamwork between the Lakers and Jazz. It has to do with the sets that they run.
I've often mentioned that the Lakers have an outdated offensive style, because they will call a play for a certain player, and if it doesn't work, they reset, at which point it becomes pickup ball or an isolation. Even when they run an initial triangle set, you see there's only really one option (freethrow line jumper).
Here are the three of the most common plays you'll see for the Lakers:
Floppy
Byron likes to call this play for the shooter Ellington. Ellington starts under the basket and gets a double pindown to pop out for the jumper (usually mid range).
Result: The defender sees it coming and Ellington doesn't get free for the shot. The play has already reset at this point, and now you have a wing who's not a great PnR ball handler with the ball, and there's no real movement on for the Lakers on the other side. He throws to Hill for the inefficient post iso attempt which he misses.
Elbow
This is a called play for a wing, a high post split with the PG setting a pindown screen, and a play that we should all be familiar with. In this case it's Lin screening for Wes Johnson, who can either curl to the basket for a pass, or most likely pop out to get a handoff from the big.
Video http://on.nba.com/1ucspW4
Movement http://on.nba.com/1uctOvV
Result: You actually see Utah Coach Quin Snyder see the play coming and call it out. They deny the elbow, so Hill catches it further out than usual. When Wes gets the pass, they deny him the screen from Hill middle, so he tries to attack off the dribble, which is not his strength and he bricks it.
High pick and roll
Nothing too complicated here- Ed Davis sets the screen for Lin going sideline, but Lin chooses to attack middle instead.
Result: Where Jordan Hill chooses to stand messes the whole play up. He's up at his favorite spot, the elbow on the weak side, which means that his man is free to block the middle of the driving lane. If Davis had chosen to set the screen middle, same thing- he would have been in the way of the roll to the basket. Rather, Hill should be all the way on the baseline under the basket, so if his man helped, he'd be right there for the dunk.
So Lin runs into Hill and his man, and gives it up to him. Ellington gets the ball without an open shot, so then he runs the PnR with Hill. Now it's Davis' turn to screw up the spacing, by positioning himself on the block. Again, he should be deep next to the baseline, so that Hill has some room to roll to the basket without Davis' man blocking him (not that Hill would have chosen to roll anyway). So then Ellington gives it back to Hill, who launches a tough contested fallaway long 2 and bricks it.
Jazz Motion Offense
Now lets look at what the Jazz do. They actually run Motion Strong on almost every half court possession. It's a set borrowed from the Spurs and Hawks, and probably originally taken from the triangle offense. The trailing big (Favors), usually the inbounder, receives the ball from the PG (Burke) at the top, and then swings it to the weak side wing, Hayward. This gets them into the set early in the shot clock. The initial formation is also perfect for them to run a drag screen PnR if they wanted to.
Burke runs down to help set a double screen for the strong side wing Ingles to pop out. So now Hayward with the ball can choose to throw it into Kanters for the post up or Ingles with the double pindown. He chooses Ingles, who doesn't have the shot, so Kanters comes up to form a Horns formation (double high post). They can run a variety of different things out of this, but most frequently they run Elbow. Note that instead of the Lakers having their non-ball handler running the play, the Jazz have their PG coming off the pindown where he can run a screen roll with the big Favors on top. Favors slips the screen and rolls inside. Note that Kanters has already dropped back down to the baseline under the side of the backboard, giving Favors room to lay it up before the help defender Hill can get there.
So basically, with one set, they went through versions of several of the Laker's favorite actions, had everyone involved, and the right personnel filling each role. They didn't call anything for any particular player, trusting that their offense would get them a good shot at some point in the action, as the right players will be in positions to attack. And the spacing was right for them to threaten both the basket and the three point line. Each stage has multiple options and counters depending on what the defense wants to do. It's almost like a modern version of the triangle, but it's not exactly rocket science for a team to figure out how to string these actions together.
Here they are running it with Hayward coming off the double screen:
He chooses to run Elbow on the other side, except not following through with the pindown and running the screen roll himself, which he finishes at the basket with the And1 layup. Note what the announcers are saying about the Jazz offense compared to the Lakers.
Lakers desperate attempt to isolate
Finally, here is a brilliant offensive possession by the Lakers that sums up their offense tonight perfectly. The play call looks like an isolation for Swaggy, as they try to use his screen to allow Clarkson to get him the ball.
You can tell there's no other option, as Clarkson tries and tries to make the pass, and ends up running 21 seconds off the clock. The other Lakers stand there like statues. Young is so heavily denied that he turns the ball over.
(Btw, let me know if the videos don't work)
I don't get it completely. If the play called is/was to get it to NY clearly it was well defensed. That at times will happen. Shouldn't there be alternate options, like across to Kelly? Even if Kelly is converged upon if Clarkson goes after passing there can be a give and go. To me, not a novice but also not a basketball idiot this seems to be something that should come from the coach, from coaching strategy.
Also I don't know how many minutes Clarkson and Lin had on the floor together but I was glad to see it. I think with the speed of the two it can put the opposing team on its heals at times and if/when the Lakers do make a defensive stop there is a much higher degree of success in transition. Am I wrong?
I'll break down why there is such a stark contrast in ball movement and teamwork between the Lakers and Jazz. It has to do with the sets that they run.
I've often mentioned that the Lakers have an outdated offensive style, because they will call a play for a certain player, and if it doesn't work, they reset, at which point it becomes pickup ball or an isolation. Even when they run an initial triangle set, you see there's only really one option (freethrow line jumper).
Here are the three of the most common plays you'll see for the Lakers:
Floppy
Byron likes to call this play for the shooter Ellington. Ellington starts under the basket and gets a double pindown to pop out for the jumper (usually mid range).
Result: The defender sees it coming and Ellington doesn't get free for the shot. The play has already reset at this point, and now you have a wing who's not a great PnR ball handler with the ball, and there's no real movement on for the Lakers on the other side. He throws to Hill for the inefficient post iso attempt which he misses.
Elbow
This is a called play for a wing, a high post split with the PG setting a pindown screen, and a play that we should all be familiar with. In this case it's Lin screening for Wes Johnson, who can either curl to the basket for a pass, or most likely pop out to get a handoff from the big.
Video http://on.nba.com/1ucspW4
Movement http://on.nba.com/1uctOvV
Result: You actually see Utah Coach Quin Snyder see the play coming and call it out. They deny the elbow, so Hill catches it further out than usual. When Wes gets the pass, they deny him the screen from Hill middle, so he tries to attack off the dribble, which is not his strength and he bricks it.
High pick and roll
Nothing too complicated here- Ed Davis sets the screen for Lin going sideline, but Lin chooses to attack middle instead.
Result: Where Jordan Hill chooses to stand messes the whole play up. He's up at his favorite spot, the elbow on the weak side, which means that his man is free to block the middle of the driving lane. If Davis had chosen to set the screen middle, same thing- he would have been in the way of the roll to the basket. Rather, Hill should be all the way on the baseline under the basket, so if his man helped, he'd be right there for the dunk.
So Lin runs into Hill and his man, and gives it up to him. Ellington gets the ball without an open shot, so then he runs the PnR with Hill. Now it's Davis' turn to screw up the spacing, by positioning himself on the block. Again, he should be deep next to the baseline, so that Hill has some room to roll to the basket without Davis' man blocking him (not that Hill would have chosen to roll anyway). So then Ellington gives it back to Hill, who launches a tough contested fallaway long 2 and bricks it.
Jazz Motion Offense
Now lets look at what the Jazz do. They actually run Motion Strong on almost every half court possession. It's a set borrowed from the Spurs and Hawks, and probably originally taken from the triangle offense. The trailing big (Favors), usually the inbounder, receives the ball from the PG (Burke) at the top, and then swings it to the weak side wing, Hayward. This gets them into the set early in the shot clock. The initial formation is also perfect for them to run a drag screen PnR if they wanted to.
Burke runs down to help set a double screen for the strong side wing Ingles to pop out. So now Hayward with the ball can choose to throw it into Kanters for the post up or Ingles with the double pindown. He chooses Ingles, who doesn't have the shot, so Kanters comes up to form a Horns formation (double high post). They can run a variety of different things out of this, but most frequently they run Elbow. Note that instead of the Lakers having their non-ball handler running the play, the Jazz have their PG coming off the pindown where he can run a screen roll with the big Favors on top. Favors slips the screen and rolls inside. Note that Kanters has already dropped back down to the baseline under the side of the backboard, giving Favors room to lay it up before the help defender Hill can get there.
So basically, with one set, they went through versions of several of the Laker's favorite actions, had everyone involved, and the right personnel filling each role. They didn't call anything for any particular player, trusting that their offense would get them a good shot at some point in the action, as the right players will be in positions to attack. And the spacing was right for them to threaten both the basket and the three point line. Each stage has multiple options and counters depending on what the defense wants to do. It's almost like a modern version of the triangle, but it's not exactly rocket science for a team to figure out how to string these actions together.
Here they are running it with Hayward coming off the double screen:
He chooses to run Elbow on the other side, except not following through with the pindown and running the screen roll himself, which he finishes at the basket with the And1 layup. Note what the announcers are saying about the Jazz offense compared to the Lakers.
Lakers desperate attempt to isolate
Finally, here is a brilliant offensive possession by the Lakers that sums up their offense tonight perfectly. The play call looks like an isolation for Swaggy, as they try to use his screen to allow Clarkson to get him the ball.
You can tell there's no other option, as Clarkson tries and tries to make the pass, and ends up running 21 seconds off the clock. The other Lakers stand there like statues. Young is so heavily denied that he turns the ball over.
(Btw, let me know if the videos don't work)
I don't get it completely. If the play called is/was to get it to NY clearly it was well defensed. That at times will happen. Shouldn't there be alternate options, like across to Kelly? Even if Kelly is converged upon if Clarkson goes after passing there can be a give and go. To me, not a novice but also not a basketball idiot this seems to be something that should come from the coach, from coaching strategy.
Also I don't know how many minutes Clarkson and Lin had on the floor together but I was glad to see it. I think with the speed of the two it can put the opposing team on its heals at times and if/when the Lakers do make a defensive stop there is a much higher degree of success in transition. Am I wrong?
One gets confused when there is no player movement. Maybe next time, Clarkson will tell a big to set a screen that will allow Swaggy P to repost or create a shot on his own. Simple options that one uses on pickup games at the gym
I'll break down why there is such a stark contrast in ball movement and teamwork between the Lakers and Jazz. It has to do with the sets that they run.
I've often mentioned that the Lakers have an outdated offensive style, because they will call a play for a certain player, and if it doesn't work, they reset, at which point it becomes pickup ball or an isolation. Even when they run an initial triangle set, you see there's only really one option (freethrow line jumper).
Here are the three of the most common plays you'll see for the Lakers:
Floppy
Byron likes to call this play for the shooter Ellington. Ellington starts under the basket and gets a double pindown to pop out for the jumper (usually mid range).
Result: The defender sees it coming and Ellington doesn't get free for the shot. The play has already reset at this point, and now you have a wing who's not a great PnR ball handler with the ball, and there's no real movement on for the Lakers on the other side. He throws to Hill for the inefficient post iso attempt which he misses.
Elbow
This is a called play for a wing, a high post split with the PG setting a pindown screen, and a play that we should all be familiar with. In this case it's Lin screening for Wes Johnson, who can either curl to the basket for a pass, or most likely pop out to get a handoff from the big.
Video http://on.nba.com/1ucspW4
Movement http://on.nba.com/1uctOvV
Result: You actually see Utah Coach Quin Snyder see the play coming and call it out. They deny the elbow, so Hill catches it further out than usual. When Wes gets the pass, they deny him the screen from Hill middle, so he tries to attack off the dribble, which is not his strength and he bricks it.
High pick and roll
Nothing too complicated here- Ed Davis sets the screen for Lin going sideline, but Lin chooses to attack middle instead.
Result: Where Jordan Hill chooses to stand messes the whole play up. He's up at his favorite spot, the elbow on the weak side, which means that his man is free to block the middle of the driving lane. If Davis had chosen to set the screen middle, same thing- he would have been in the way of the roll to the basket. Rather, Hill should be all the way on the baseline under the basket, so if his man helped, he'd be right there for the dunk.
So Lin runs into Hill and his man, and gives it up to him. Ellington gets the ball without an open shot, so then he runs the PnR with Hill. Now it's Davis' turn to screw up the spacing, by positioning himself on the block. Again, he should be deep next to the baseline, so that Hill has some room to roll to the basket without Davis' man blocking him (not that Hill would have chosen to roll anyway). So then Ellington gives it back to Hill, who launches a tough contested fallaway long 2 and bricks it.
Jazz Motion Offense
Now lets look at what the Jazz do. They actually run Motion Strong on almost every half court possession. It's a set borrowed from the Spurs and Hawks, and probably originally taken from the triangle offense. The trailing big (Favors), usually the inbounder, receives the ball from the PG (Burke) at the top, and then swings it to the weak side wing, Hayward. This gets them into the set early in the shot clock. The initial formation is also perfect for them to run a drag screen PnR if they wanted to.
Burke runs down to help set a double screen for the strong side wing Ingles to pop out. So now Hayward with the ball can choose to throw it into Kanters for the post up or Ingles with the double pindown. He chooses Ingles, who doesn't have the shot, so Kanters comes up to form a Horns formation (double high post). They can run a variety of different things out of this, but most frequently they run Elbow. Note that instead of the Lakers having their non-ball handler running the play, the Jazz have their PG coming off the pindown where he can run a screen roll with the big Favors on top. Favors slips the screen and rolls inside. Note that Kanters has already dropped back down to the baseline under the side of the backboard, giving Favors room to lay it up before the help defender Hill can get there.
So basically, with one set, they went through versions of several of the Laker's favorite actions, had everyone involved, and the right personnel filling each role. They didn't call anything for any particular player, trusting that their offense would get them a good shot at some point in the action, as the right players will be in positions to attack. And the spacing was right for them to threaten both the basket and the three point line. Each stage has multiple options and counters depending on what the defense wants to do. It's almost like a modern version of the triangle, but it's not exactly rocket science for a team to figure out how to string these actions together.
Here they are running it with Hayward coming off the double screen:
He chooses to run Elbow on the other side, except not following through with the pindown and running the screen roll himself, which he finishes at the basket with the And1 layup. Note what the announcers are saying about the Jazz offense compared to the Lakers.
Lakers desperate attempt to isolate
Finally, here is a brilliant offensive possession by the Lakers that sums up their offense tonight perfectly. The play call looks like an isolation for Swaggy, as they try to use his screen to allow Clarkson to get him the ball.
You can tell there's no other option, as Clarkson tries and tries to make the pass, and ends up running 21 seconds off the clock. The other Lakers stand there like statues. Young is so heavily denied that he turns the ball over.
(Btw, let me know if the videos don't work)
I don't get it completely. If the play called is/was to get it to NY clearly it was well defensed. That at times will happen. Shouldn't there be alternate options, like across to Kelly? Even if Kelly is converged upon if Clarkson goes after passing there can be a give and go. To me, not a novice but also not a basketball idiot this seems to be something that should come from the coach, from coaching strategy.
Also I don't know how many minutes Clarkson and Lin had on the floor together but I was glad to see it. I think with the speed of the two it can put the opposing team on its heals at times and if/when the Lakers do make a defensive stop there is a much higher degree of success in transition. Am I wrong?
One thing you do, which all the best offenses do, is misdirection. Having multiple options out of the same "opening" movements so that the defense can't really tell what you're trying to get to. Offense is about getting to a spot that you like to get to, period. You can try to do it the way the Lakers did here with minimal distraction and basically broadcasting it to the defense, OR, you can run some fluff to start with and make the defense work a bit, have them defending other options, and then get to this set. You don't have to start in the exact configuration as long as you end in it if you get what I'm saying.
For example: say we've run a flex post option to get a post iso 3 or 4 times in the game, and now the defense is comfortable and thinks they know when that's coming. Now, we can run this play because the defense thinks they know what's coming and might turn off for a split second, which is all the separation we need to get a wide open look from three. And now the next time we run this set, the defender won't sag off the three point shooter and guess what, we've got a pick and roll action at the top of the key. One option flows into the next, which flows into the next. Good offense.
Last edited by 44TheLogo on Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:09 pm Post subject:
A Mad Chinaman wrote:
One gets confused when there is no player movement. Maybe next time, Clarkson will tell a big to set a screen that will allow Swaggy P to repost or create a shot on his own. Simple options that one uses on pickup games at the gym
Yes that is what Clarkson should have done, but it doesn't excuse this sorry excuse for an offensive set. This was exactly my criticism of the offense. They run a play call with only one option with stagnant movement, and when it isn't there, it resets into pickup basketball.
44TheLogo wrote:
One thing you do, which all the best offenses do, is misdirection. Having multiple options out of the same "opening" movements so that the defense can't really tell what you're trying to get to. Offense is about getting to a spot that you like to get to, period. You can try to do it the way the Lakers did here with minimal distraction and basically broadcasting it to the defense, OR, you can run some fluff to start with and make the defense work a bit, have them defending other options, and then get to this set. You don't have to start in the exact configuration as long as you end in it if you get what I'm saying.
For example: say we've run a flex post option to get a post iso 3 or 4 times in the game, and now the defense is comfortable and thinks they know when that's coming. Now, we can run this play because the defense thinks they know what's coming and might turn off for a split second, which is all the separation we need to get a wide open look from three. And now the next time we run this set, the defender won't sag off the three point shooter and guess what, we've got a pick and roll action at the top of the key. One option flows into the next, which flows into the next. Good offense.
Yup, exactly this. I would add that when your off ball movement and reads are choreographed, you can maintain the proper spacing and timing to free up shooters and keep the lanes clear of help defenders.
One gets confused when there is no player movement. Maybe next time, Clarkson will tell a big to set a screen that will allow Swaggy P to repost or create a shot on his own. Simple options that one uses on pickup games at the gym
Yes that is what Clarkson should have done, but it doesn't excuse this sorry excuse for an offensive set. This was exactly my criticism of the offense. They run a play call with only one option with stagnant movement, and when it isn't there, it resets into pickup basketball.
44TheLogo wrote:
One thing you do, which all the best offenses do, is misdirection. Having multiple options out of the same "opening" movements so that the defense can't really tell what you're trying to get to. Offense is about getting to a spot that you like to get to, period. You can try to do it the way the Lakers did here with minimal distraction and basically broadcasting it to the defense, OR, you can run some fluff to start with and make the defense work a bit, have them defending other options, and then get to this set. You don't have to start in the exact configuration as long as you end in it if you get what I'm saying.
For example: say we've run a flex post option to get a post iso 3 or 4 times in the game, and now the defense is comfortable and thinks they know when that's coming. Now, we can run this play because the defense thinks they know what's coming and might turn off for a split second, which is all the separation we need to get a wide open look from three. And now the next time we run this set, the defender won't sag off the three point shooter and guess what, we've got a pick and roll action at the top of the key. One option flows into the next, which flows into the next. Good offense.
Yup, exactly this. I would add that when your off ball movement and reads are choreographed, you can maintain the proper spacing and timing to free up shooters and keep the lanes clear of help defenders.
BScott has stated (and Coach Dave confirmed on air, that he rarely call plays - is that true?
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:16 am Post subject:
A Mad Chinaman wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
A Mad Chinaman wrote:
One gets confused when there is no player movement. Maybe next time, Clarkson will tell a big to set a screen that will allow Swaggy P to repost or create a shot on his own. Simple options that one uses on pickup games at the gym
Yes that is what Clarkson should have done, but it doesn't excuse this sorry excuse for an offensive set. This was exactly my criticism of the offense. They run a play call with only one option with stagnant movement, and when it isn't there, it resets into pickup basketball.
44TheLogo wrote:
One thing you do, which all the best offenses do, is misdirection. Having multiple options out of the same "opening" movements so that the defense can't really tell what you're trying to get to. Offense is about getting to a spot that you like to get to, period. You can try to do it the way the Lakers did here with minimal distraction and basically broadcasting it to the defense, OR, you can run some fluff to start with and make the defense work a bit, have them defending other options, and then get to this set. You don't have to start in the exact configuration as long as you end in it if you get what I'm saying.
For example: say we've run a flex post option to get a post iso 3 or 4 times in the game, and now the defense is comfortable and thinks they know when that's coming. Now, we can run this play because the defense thinks they know what's coming and might turn off for a split second, which is all the separation we need to get a wide open look from three. And now the next time we run this set, the defender won't sag off the three point shooter and guess what, we've got a pick and roll action at the top of the key. One option flows into the next, which flows into the next. Good offense.
Yup, exactly this. I would add that when your off ball movement and reads are choreographed, you can maintain the proper spacing and timing to free up shooters and keep the lanes clear of help defenders.
BScott has stated (and Coach Dave confirmed on air, that he rarely call plays - is that true?
He's said that for veteran PGs like Lin or Price, he lets them call the play out of the playbook most of the time. For a rookie like Clarkson, Byron will do more of the playcalling.
I know it is only three games into the most recent shakeup of starting lineup, but thing that already strikes me is how minimal resistance Lakers front line seems to put up against any penetration into the paint now (maybe rebounding and boxing out, too?)
I thought Boozer and Hill as a defensive tandem at start of season was bad (watching some YouTube highlights, it seemed like both of them had first instinct to box out their own man and get in position for rebound and no one step up to stop dribble drive penetration to the basket), but just watching last few games, rim protection / paint protection seems even worse now (like it is not even there now).
Not sure what it is, or even if my observation about the utter lack of rim protection with newest Byron Scott lineup is even valid, but that is the thing that really strikes this uneducated eye.
Your thoughts?
(Sacre looked pretty decent as rim protector with second unit previously. Is it a new scheme? Are they just learning to play with each other? Are they even trying?)
Chris Humphries had 12 rebounds in the fourth quarter (9 defensive; 3 offensive) of yesterday's game (including that slam dunk of rebound play), and from fading memory, I think Rockets kept getting many loose balls and put backs even when Dwight didn't play that game:
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:36 pm Post subject:
^
A couple things. Part of it was Davis only getting 19 minutes, and Black none. Boozer is Boozer. He's always going to let guys come through with minimal resistance other than maybe a push in the back. Hill, I didn't really pay attention to him this game, but his focus on D usually comes and goes. Sacre, as you said was a bit disappointing. He's usually better, while in this game he missed some defensive rotations and was strangely passive on that end.
A lot of times though the Lakers got caught in transition due to their long misses, turnovers, and Wall's speed. In the half court, they gave up a lot of mid range jumpers to Wall because they were too afraid of his penetration. They had the big drop back and the defending PG go under the screen, when in hindsight, they probably should have tried to go over.
One gets confused when there is no player movement. Maybe next time, Clarkson will tell a big to set a screen that will allow Swaggy P to repost or create a shot on his own. Simple options that one uses on pickup games at the gym
Yes that is what Clarkson should have done, but it doesn't excuse this sorry excuse for an offensive set. This was exactly my criticism of the offense. They run a play call with only one option with stagnant movement, and when it isn't there, it resets into pickup basketball.
44TheLogo wrote:
One thing you do, which all the best offenses do, is misdirection. Having multiple options out of the same "opening" movements so that the defense can't really tell what you're trying to get to. Offense is about getting to a spot that you like to get to, period. You can try to do it the way the Lakers did here with minimal distraction and basically broadcasting it to the defense, OR, you can run some fluff to start with and make the defense work a bit, have them defending other options, and then get to this set. You don't have to start in the exact configuration as long as you end in it if you get what I'm saying.
For example: say we've run a flex post option to get a post iso 3 or 4 times in the game, and now the defense is comfortable and thinks they know when that's coming. Now, we can run this play because the defense thinks they know what's coming and might turn off for a split second, which is all the separation we need to get a wide open look from three. And now the next time we run this set, the defender won't sag off the three point shooter and guess what, we've got a pick and roll action at the top of the key. One option flows into the next, which flows into the next. Good offense.
Yup, exactly this. I would add that when your off ball movement and reads are choreographed, you can maintain the proper spacing and timing to free up shooters and keep the lanes clear of help defenders.
BScott has stated (and Coach Dave confirmed on air, that he rarely call plays - is that true?
He's said that for veteran PGs like Lin or Price, he lets them call the play out of the playbook most of the time. For a rookie like Clarkson, Byron will do more of the playcalling.
So one wonders why JLin doesn't call more P&R action.
Did I remember correctly that BScott said that he will let Clarkson call the plays?
How was Tarik Black's sprained ankle?
Outside of "Invisible" Johnson and "Swing Pass" RKelly, what are the SF options? Some commentators have compared Johnson to Devean George - good or bad comparison? Could Ron Artest/Metta World Peace/Big Panda's presence mean that he would be helping SFs like RKelly find ways to be more effective and finding ways to get off clean shots?
It seems as if Davis is productive - with or without JLin. Why do people think that a needed/required proponent of JLin's successful is depended on Davis. When JLin was aggressive and played with a purpose, he was successful - Davis or no Davis. Should not the same type of chemistry exist with JHill and Boozer?
Note: Acknowledge that Davis knows how to play with JLin in a more effective fashion than JHill/Boozer
Interesting that in the first half, there was excellent ball movement without Swaggy P playing, since often he just pounds his dribble to the detriment of any other movement (sounds familiar?)
Not sure what BScott is doing?
Given the current record, injuries, unproven young players and a need to use the remaining games to see which players are keepers while providing as much opportunities as possible - what are the best options available to BScott (especially since this is almost like an extended preseason/audition time for everybody concern?
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