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Voices
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 Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Re: Dwight trades,
1. at that time, he was still coming back from injuries;
2. he was an expiring contract, so a team would likely not give up a ton of assets for a possible 2 month rental;
3. Dwight was the guy who asked to be traded to only 2-3 teams, Lakers happened to be on that list (albeit on the back end of it). Why would a team like, Atlanta, want to trade prime assets for a guy who has no chance of staying?
If we're going to put this all on Mitch for the past 3 seasons, I ask that you balance it out with a bigger sample size. The CP3 move would have crippled almost every franchise, but at least the Lakers got off the mat and made moves that eventually didn't pan out. |
Those complaining about not trading Howard at the deadline have no understanding of how things work. Any GM who would have dealt valuable pieces to rent Dwight for a couple of months, only to watch him walk at the end of the season, would soon be unemployed. He wanted Houston, and Houston didn't have to give up an asset to get him. But I am sure those realities will be ignored in favor of some fan's fantasies. |
So trading for Dwight for a season is alright. But a half season is moronic? Interesting.
In both cases the GM would be gambling they can convince Dwight to stay when his contract ends. Wish we weren't the ones gambling. But if wishes were horses, beggars would ride. |
I never said trading for him for one year was alright. I understand why they did, they were looking at short-term results, pushing for one more title before Dr. Buss passed away. And I have no problem with that. But yes, trading for him for a couple of months is moronic if you give up valuable assets. We basically gave up a pick for him since Bynum was done. Replacing Bynum and a pick for $20+ mil in cap space isn't horrible. |
Nobody knew Bynum was done, and if the Lakers knew that Bynum was done then they acted without ethics by trading him. Sure Philly needed to have there own doctors evaluate Bynum, but what you are saying is that the Lakers knew Bynum was done, again if that's the case the Lakers acted unethical.
The Lakers looking for short term results when they made a bad trade for Dwight is fantasies. The Lakers were looking for long term when they traded for Dwight. It sounds like you are just making things up to support your position.
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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The Lakers knew that Bynum was done as a Laker.
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | Kobe_MJ_Fan_No_1 wrote: | He is NO Jerry West.
But he did turn Kwame into Pau Gasol.
Thats good enough for me to believe. |
Yeah but he gave up Marc Gasol in the process so trash can Mitch.
I mean, you have people in here saying trading for Dwight was a terrible idea when we could have had Horford instead.
Exactly none of the gripes were gripes at the time of the acquisitions. But we sure did have 20/20 vision back then, after preseason losses today! |
I agree. Alot of Laker FANS on LG were excited for the Nash and D12 trades. Myself included.
But that doesn't mean they aren't still blemishes on the Lakers franchise. He made understandable mistakes. But they were mistakes nonetheless. |
And no one is perfect.
Which is why you look at the entire body of work. If you pick out 2008-2010, Mitch is a godsend. If you pick out 2011-2014 then he is the worst human being on the planet of Earth. |
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Voices
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | The Lakers knew that Bynum was done as a Laker. |
How do you know that VLF.
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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For one he didn't fit with Pau. And he was soon to be a FA and would have cost a lot to re-sign. And that is before considering his health. I think they would have kept him for his last year but tried to trade him during the next season.
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salami
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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The coaching hires of Mike Brown and Dantoni are what has derailed this franchise and the clues suggest these were not Mitch's fault, but he is getting paid to take some of the heat
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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There would have been one way to avoid the situation we're in now.
And that would have been to let Kobe Bryant walk in 2010 or sign-and-trade him for pieces that by now, in 2014-2015, would have been paying more dividends.
Would people have felt better about that? No Kobe the last 4 seasons but be in a better situation than we are in today?
By keeping Kobe, they had to take big risks to try to hit one more final home run. They took them with the acquisitions of Dwight and Nash. They struck out. I don't really see that as a mistake anymore than I would if a guy pushed his chips in with pocket aces and lost to 79 offsuit. There's luck at play here too to some degree. But you always push AA against 79off and when you have a player of the caliber of Kobe Bryant in the final years of his career when he can still be an elite player, you go for it. And I'm glad the franchise that I'm a fan of, is willing to do that.
It is a virtual guarantee that we would never have acquired Nash or Howard had we moved Kobe and started over in 2010. We'd likely be in a much better place than we are now at least as far as having pieces for the future. But I know, I'd like to have my cake and eat it too. But this is real life. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | For one he didn't fit with Pau. And he was soon to be a FA and would have cost a lot to re-sign. And that is before considering his health. I think they would have kept him for his last year but tried to trade him during the next season. |
Writing was on the wall after the 2011 playoff run too. IMO.
I hate to take a single snapshot and make it out to be more than it was, but that forearm to Barea, pretty much illustrated that Bynum was not going to be the cornerstore of this franchise going forward. |
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saacman5033
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | There would have been one way to avoid the situation we're in now.
And that would have been to let Kobe Bryant walk in 2010 |
Letting Kobe walk has not and would not have ever been considered. Trading Bynum for Melo though... |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Re: Dwight trades,
1. at that time, he was still coming back from injuries;
2. he was an expiring contract, so a team would likely not give up a ton of assets for a possible 2 month rental;
3. Dwight was the guy who asked to be traded to only 2-3 teams, Lakers happened to be on that list (albeit on the back end of it). Why would a team like, Atlanta, want to trade prime assets for a guy who has no chance of staying?
If we're going to put this all on Mitch for the past 3 seasons, I ask that you balance it out with a bigger sample size. The CP3 move would have crippled almost every franchise, but at least the Lakers got off the mat and made moves that eventually didn't pan out. |
Those complaining about not trading Howard at the deadline have no understanding of how things work. Any GM who would have dealt valuable pieces to rent Dwight for a couple of months, only to watch him walk at the end of the season, would soon be unemployed. He wanted Houston, and Houston didn't have to give up an asset to get him. But I am sure those realities will be ignored in favor of some fan's fantasies. |
So trading for Dwight for a season is alright. But a half season is moronic? Interesting.
In both cases the GM would be gambling they can convince Dwight to stay when his contract ends. Wish we weren't the ones gambling. But if wishes were horses, beggars would ride. |
I never said trading for him for one year was alright. I understand why they did, they were looking at short-term results, pushing for one more title before Dr. Buss passed away. And I have no problem with that. But yes, trading for him for a couple of months is moronic if you give up valuable assets. We basically gave up a pick for him since Bynum was done. Replacing Bynum and a pick for $20+ mil in cap space isn't horrible. |
I agree, it isn't horrible. But us laker fans are expecting much better than not horrible.
We just have to agree to disagree. I think one of the 29 other teams in the NBA would have gambled on Dwight in a trade deadline trade. Many organization feel the way the Lakers did (bolded quote I'm talking about). Alot of teams will settle for short term results (for various reason but mostly $). That's really the only choice for a lot of markets. Short windows for success. And if you win a chip nobody will leave. Cleveland is taking that gamble with love.
I don't think the 40+ games separating the offseason and the trade deadline are that significant. I guess what I'm saying is, if GM's should be fired for accepting a Dwight trade deadline trade, than Mitch is culpable for a one year rental trade. Can't have it both ways
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| saacman5033 wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | There would have been one way to avoid the situation we're in now.
And that would have been to let Kobe Bryant walk in 2010 |
Letting Kobe walk has not and would not have ever been considered. Trading Bynum for Melo though... |
I agree. But in hindsight, had we done that, we'd likely be in a much better position than we are today since we'd be in year 4 of a rebuild.
When you're rebuilding, you can afford to hit a lot of singles. When you have a megastar that has only a few years of elite play left, your window is small so you have to take some big risks and hope they pan out.
We took the right risk. It just didn't pan out. So the rebuild will have to start much later. We could have been whining about what should have been in 2011-2012 or in 2014-2015. We would be whining at some point or another. |
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Bard207
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: |
We as fans have to realize that things have changed since Mitch built our last title teams, and drastically changed since West last built a winner. With today's CBA, we could have never signed Shaq or made the Kobe trade. The restrictions this FO is working under are greater any previous Laker FO. They were forced to trade draft picks to fill holes and to build from scratch without picks, a cap space plan is the only one that makes rebuilding possible. |
This past Summer, Cleveland signed a dominant Free Agent (LeBron) and did a reverse Kobe trade by getting Love for the rights to a high profile Rookie (Wiggins).
Please explain the notable differences between what the Lakers did almost two decades ago and what Cleveland did this past Summer. |
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jonnybravo
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | There would have been one way to avoid the situation we're in now.
And that would have been to let Kobe Bryant walk in 2010 or sign-and-trade him for pieces that by now, in 2014-2015, would have been paying more dividends.
Would people have felt better about that? No Kobe the last 4 seasons but be in a better situation than we are in today?
By keeping Kobe, they had to take big risks to try to hit one more final home run. They took them with the acquisitions of Dwight and Nash. They struck out. I don't really see that as a mistake anymore than I would if a guy pushed his chips in with pocket aces and lost to 79 offsuit. There's luck at play here too to some degree. But you always push AA against 79off and when you have a player of the caliber of Kobe Bryant in the final years of his career when he can still be an elite player, you go for it. And I'm glad the franchise that I'm a fan of, is willing to do that.
It is a virtual guarantee that we would never have acquired Nash or Howard had we moved Kobe and started over in 2010. We'd likely be in a much better place than we are now at least as far as having pieces for the future. But I know, I'd like to have my cake and eat it too. But this is real life. |
I think if they moved Kobe in 2010, they still would have gone for Howard had he been available. Definitely not Nash though.
The big mistake they made with Howard was not getting a better pulse in the locker room. After some of the revelations Nash made on Dwight in the Grantland videos, I can't see how the franchise could delude themselves into thinking they were going to keep him. He was gone from the jump and they should have at least moved him at the deadline. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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Where The Lakers Rank as Drafters
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Bard207 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: |
We as fans have to realize that things have changed since Mitch built our last title teams, and drastically changed since West last built a winner. With today's CBA, we could have never signed Shaq or made the Kobe trade. The restrictions this FO is working under are greater any previous Laker FO. They were forced to trade draft picks to fill holes and to build from scratch without picks, a cap space plan is the only one that makes rebuilding possible. |
This past Summer, Cleveland signed a dominant Free Agent (LeBron) and did a reverse Kobe trade by getting Love for the rights to a high profile Rookie (Wiggins).
Please explain the notable differences between what the Lakers did almost two decades ago and what Cleveland did this past Summer. |
Orlando could have offered Shaq more money for more years, and the Lakers would have had to dump some contracts to even offer Shaq today's max. Back then they didn't have to fit him into a restrictive salary cap. And Shaq couldn't sign a 7-year contract now, and back then his salary was greater than 50% of the Lakers $23 mil salary cap. And salaries wouldn't match between what Vlade was making and the rookie salary that Kobe had.
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Last edited by venturalakersfan on Fri Oct 17, 2014 3:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting.
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Vancouver Fan
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | KobeDunk wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | KobeDunk wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | KobeDunk wrote: | | the Lakers front office has failed miserably. Since the last title in 2010 its been one disaster after another with very few positives in between. |
Just reflect on that statement for a minute. The Knicks are 40+ years in waiting, and more than 65% of the rest of the NBA has not been in the Finals let alone won a ring.
It's been 4 years since our last back-to-back. Just soak in that for a minute... |
I don't care about the Knicks and the rest of the NBA! I care about the Lakers. Just because its only been 4 years since the last title doesn't give them a pass to just drive the ship into the ground with horrible decision making after horrible decision making.
Make this sink in..... in 2010 we had a front court of Odom, Bynum and Pau. That was our CHAMPIONSHIP front court. Today they are all gone.... What exactly do we have to show for them? What did our front office get for them? The only "asset" we have from that front court is Nash... if you could call him an asset. So they basically disassembled a championship front court for NOTHING in return. So we should be Ok with this? |
It's called equity. The FO has earned equity with me as a fan. When you have a FO that decade after decade deliver crap, then you have no equity and heads should roll.
But in the past 15 years, the Lakers have won 5 championships and been in the Finals 7 times.
I think they've earned that equity. I'm giving them at least until 2016 to start getting their ISH together. |
fair enough... but some are less patient than others... your 2016 for me is now. They've had ample chances to get the ship sailing in the right direction but they've failed thus far. |
We as fans have to realize that things have changed since Mitch built our last title teams, and drastically changed since West last built a winner. With today's CBA, we could have never signed Shaq or made the Kobe trade. The restrictions this FO is working under are greater than any previous Laker FO. They were forced to trade draft picks to fill holes and to build from scratch without picks, a cap space plan is the only one that makes rebuilding possible. |
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JoJo Dancer
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | saacman5033 wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | There would have been one way to avoid the situation we're in now.
And that would have been to let Kobe Bryant walk in 2010 |
Letting Kobe walk has not and would not have ever been considered. Trading Bynum for Melo though... |
I agree. But in hindsight, had we done that, we'd likely be in a much better position than we are today since we'd be in year 4 of a rebuild.
When you're rebuilding, you can afford to hit a lot of singles. When you have a megastar that has only a few years of elite play left, your window is small so you have to take some big risks and hope they pan out.
We took the right risk. It just didn't pan out. So the rebuild will have to start much later. We could have been whining about what should have been in 2011-2012 or in 2014-2015. We would be whining at some point or another. |
Letting Kobe walk in 2010 would have been idiotic. I don't think they would have survived the backlash. That would be like Mark Cuban letting Chandler go in 2011 x1000000. We won the Championship in 2010 and you let Kobe walk? What player would come here when your star player gets treated like that? |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Vancouver Fan wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | KobeDunk wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | KobeDunk wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | KobeDunk wrote: | | the Lakers front office has failed miserably. Since the last title in 2010 its been one disaster after another with very few positives in between. |
Just reflect on that statement for a minute. The Knicks are 40+ years in waiting, and more than 65% of the rest of the NBA has not been in the Finals let alone won a ring.
It's been 4 years since our last back-to-back. Just soak in that for a minute... |
I don't care about the Knicks and the rest of the NBA! I care about the Lakers. Just because its only been 4 years since the last title doesn't give them a pass to just drive the ship into the ground with horrible decision making after horrible decision making.
Make this sink in..... in 2010 we had a front court of Odom, Bynum and Pau. That was our CHAMPIONSHIP front court. Today they are all gone.... What exactly do we have to show for them? What did our front office get for them? The only "asset" we have from that front court is Nash... if you could call him an asset. So they basically disassembled a championship front court for NOTHING in return. So we should be Ok with this? |
It's called equity. The FO has earned equity with me as a fan. When you have a FO that decade after decade deliver crap, then you have no equity and heads should roll.
But in the past 15 years, the Lakers have won 5 championships and been in the Finals 7 times.
I think they've earned that equity. I'm giving them at least until 2016 to start getting their ISH together. |
fair enough... but some are less patient than others... your 2016 for me is now. They've had ample chances to get the ship sailing in the right direction but they've failed thus far. |
We as fans have to realize that things have changed since Mitch built our last title teams, and drastically changed since West last built a winner. With today's CBA, we could have never signed Shaq or made the Kobe trade. The restrictions this FO is working under are greater than any previous Laker FO. They were forced to trade draft picks to fill holes and to build from scratch without picks, a cap space plan is the only one that makes rebuilding possible. |
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Quite simply you have a team that got it right with CP3, got that squashed, and got right back in with a huge risk/reward move a year later (the risk was largely based on the effects of the veto and having to go after Nash instead of Cp3, and trading and hoping with Howard as opposed to an easy transaction), which as we all know, blew up. Most teams never even get to the first of those two, much less pull both a year apart.
Given what happened, Nash and Howard set them back to actually below where they were when they got them, so I have them in year 2 of the rebuild this year.
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Treble Clef
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Voices wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Re: Dwight trades,
1. at that time, he was still coming back from injuries;
2. he was an expiring contract, so a team would likely not give up a ton of assets for a possible 2 month rental;
3. Dwight was the guy who asked to be traded to only 2-3 teams, Lakers happened to be on that list (albeit on the back end of it). Why would a team like, Atlanta, want to trade prime assets for a guy who has no chance of staying?
If we're going to put this all on Mitch for the past 3 seasons, I ask that you balance it out with a bigger sample size. The CP3 move would have crippled almost every franchise, but at least the Lakers got off the mat and made moves that eventually didn't pan out. |
Those complaining about not trading Howard at the deadline have no understanding of how things work. Any GM who would have dealt valuable pieces to rent Dwight for a couple of months, only to watch him walk at the end of the season, would soon be unemployed. He wanted Houston, and Houston didn't have to give up an asset to get him. But I am sure those realities will be ignored in favor of some fan's fantasies. |
So trading for Dwight for a season is alright. But a half season is moronic? Interesting.
In both cases the GM would be gambling they can convince Dwight to stay when his contract ends. Wish we weren't the ones gambling. But if wishes were horses, beggars would ride. |
I never said trading for him for one year was alright. I understand why they did, they were looking at short-term results, pushing for one more title before Dr. Buss passed away. And I have no problem with that. But yes, trading for him for a couple of months is moronic if you give up valuable assets. We basically gave up a pick for him since Bynum was done. Replacing Bynum and a pick for $20+ mil in cap space isn't horrible. |
Nobody knew Bynum was done, and if the Lakers knew that Bynum was done then they acted without ethics by trading him. Sure Philly needed to have there own doctors evaluate Bynum, but what you are saying is that the Lakers knew Bynum was done, again if that's the case the Lakers acted unethical.
The Lakers looking for short term results when they made a bad trade for Dwight is fantasies. The Lakers were looking for long term when they traded for Dwight. It sounds like you are just making things up to support your position. |
Everyone knew Bynum was a ticking time bomb. Orlando wanted nothing to do with him even though center was their biggest void with Dwight's departure. The Lakers absolutely annihilated the competition in that trade. They got a reliable franchise player that could be traded for even more than the guy they initially traded for him.
They just gambled that he would stay with the team despite being scapegoated for a lot of the problems here. That was probably the big mistake in all of it. If they weren't going to cater to him, they should have looked to move him to one of the teams who were apparently willing to part with guys like Klay Thompson, Deandre Jordan, Eric Bledsoe, etc. |
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laker4life
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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Mitch is not the problem.
Overall, he has done a fine job. |
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mugwump
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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Meh, without Jerry West feeding Mitch top talent, Kobe, Shaq, Pau -- Mitch is proving to achieve little. Without Phil Jackson as coach, Mitch is basically losing.
He got Dwight Howard, possibly the last star to choose to come here, and the guy ran away when the defensive kryptonite Mike D'Antoni was chosen unanimously with Mitch's vote thereby insuring Howard would leave after one year.
Mitch is proving to be the status quo -- great when everything is in place, and the worst Lakers records ever when he's not benefiting from Jerry West or Phil Jackson.
He tows the company line, which is proving to be disastrous now.
What did the Dodgers do when they lost in the first round? Why are the Lakers doing nothing to this FO when they just had the worst year in franchise history?
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Purp 32
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| Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 4:29 am Post subject: |
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| While I respect Mitch a lot as a GM, at a certain point we have to start wondering if there's any realistic strategy in place to improve the team other than hoping a star player leaves their team for us. Some of the contracts they've been handing out the past 5 years have been laughable. |
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Liam_x7
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| Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 5:34 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | Blade wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Nnamdi21 wrote: |
Why have the younger players pick up bad habits and learn flawed schemes. I'm not a fan of hiring a new coach every 2 years. FO just seems lo lack any direction. The huge swing for superstars and misses every year is desperation moves. at least lay a decent foundation and maybe they will come. |
Every year? At least give an honest opinion, it has been one offseason. They haven't had cap space for a FA since they signed Shaq. You don't win without star players, that is why the FO tried to get them. |
And failed quite miserably |
So you would prefer they don't try? That would be extremely idiotic. |
Yeah but they still failed miserably at landing anyone worth any significance, They couldnt even get a Bledsoe or an Isiah Thomas, They did get Lin but hes an expiring who along with Hill will probably be bundled in what we all hope will be a Big Trade down the road
We have no Size up front at all. Ed Davis is a solid pickup but hes not the answer playing out of position at the 5
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| Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:01 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | For one he didn't fit with Pau. And he was soon to be a FA and would have cost a lot to re-sign. And that is before considering his health. I think they would have kept him for his last year but tried to trade him during the next season. |
It's the other way around, Pau did not fit with Bynum, Bynum was the better player after the 2011 playoffs. Pau had packed it in when the Lakers hired Mike Brown, a horrible signing, another huge mistake by Lakers management. Bynum was healthy after the 2011 playoffs and was by far better player than Gasol. There was no indication at least from a common fans standpoint that Bynum was damaged goods. Sure Bynum stood to get a huge contract, Dwight was also in line for a huge contract, and Dwight had already made it clear he did not want to play for the Lakers. Bynum by all indications wanted to be a Laker.
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ALTHOUGH HE STANDS 6 FEET 2 INCHES, JIM BUSS ATTENDED JOCKEY SCHOOL WHEN HE WAS 20. |
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