View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
ghost305 Starting Rotation
Joined: 07 Sep 2012 Posts: 165
|
Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
As far as Kobe being a terrible teammate?
1)Where is Sasha Vujacic?
2) Smush Parker got released in the first year of his contract with the Heat
3)What happened to Odom after he got traded from the Lakers?
4)What about Andrew Bynum? Did you hear the reports out of Philly
5)It ended terribly for SHaq in Miami and he bounced around league from team to team.
6)Dwight Howard? I can safely say that he'll never win a championship. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Reflexx Franchise Player
Joined: 25 Jun 2005 Posts: 11163
|
Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hindsight is 20/20.
We have great management. But this isn't an easy business. There are a bunch of other highly paid experts out there that are all competing against them. They can't win every single time. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
ghost305 Starting Rotation
Joined: 07 Sep 2012 Posts: 165
|
Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Reflexx wrote: | Hindsight is 20/20.
We have great management. But this isn't an easy business. There are a bunch of other highly paid experts out there that are all competing against them. They can't win every single time. |
what great management you know makes all these mistakes over and over again? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
10scott10 Star Player
Joined: 17 May 2006 Posts: 7428 Location: Making the games you play
|
Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
No team will ever look good without great players. You could say that the management was inept, but they still managed to put championship teams around, all while he was the highest paid player in the league.
They make gambles, some work out and some don't |
|
Back to top |
|
|
ghost305 Starting Rotation
Joined: 07 Sep 2012 Posts: 165
|
Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
10scott10 wrote: | No team will ever look good without great players. You could say that the management was inept, but they still managed to put championship teams around, all while he was the highest paid player in the league.
They make gambles, some work out and some don't |
what i pointed out has nothing to do with him being the highest paid player then though. Notice how i mention them giving him that 3 yr extension when they knew he wasn't going to be as great anymore given his knee injuries. In fact they even went as far as moving the team away from him by trying to make Andrew the focal point. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
ROTL Starting Rotation
Joined: 28 Sep 2014 Posts: 211
|
Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:54 pm Post subject: Re: Honest Question: Did Kobe's greatness mask how inept the management of the team has been in the past 10 years? |
|
|
ghost305 wrote: | 1)Traded Butler for Kwame
2)Refused to trade Bynum for Carmelo Anthony in 2011. Same Carmelo we tried to sign this offseason except that he's damn near 30 now.
3)Traded for Chris Paul but didn't wait for Owners to leave NY before announcing it.
4)Gave Kobe a max 3 year extension in 2010 when they knew Kobe's knees were shot and he was going to need way more help to contend for a championship
5)hired Mike Brown so he could make Andrew Bynum more of a focal point in the offense which indirectly marginalized Pau.
6)Traded away 4 draft picks(2 first and 2 second) for a 39 year old Point Guard and signed him to a 3yr27-28 million $ contract
7)Passed over Phil Jackson to hire Dantoni so they can build the offense around said 39 year old PG
8)Common sense said that We would have never be able to win a championship with such weak perimeter defense. Nash being added to team worsened our ability to defend the perimeter.
----
Why i said Kobe masked their ineptness? Because Kobe took a weaker team than all the Heat, Spurs, OKC to 3 straight Finals. In fact ORL was a better team than we were the year when we beat them in Finals. Our starting PG was Derek Fisher who was 35 and 36 respectively in the both years that we won. In fact I remember ESPN saying he was the worst starting point guard in the nba
Lebron for all his statistical greatness needed way more help than Kobe did to win a championship. Remember in 2007 all we needed was a borderline all star Andrew bynum to actually become a contender.
*Notice i didn't mention the pau gasol trade because memphis was looking to offload him for an expiring contract.
-Dwayne Missed a lot of games last battling yr knee problems. Kobe has had those knee injuries since 2010(the year we won the championship). It got worse in 2011. Read excerpts from PJ's book about that. And he still played 82 games.
-Kobe in 2013 was a shell of his former self and he was still as good as Carmelo Anthony in his prime. |
Yep. he also saved the frnahcise in 2007 with his trade demand. it got those lazy SOBs off their butts to improve the team and brought dr. Buss back to run the team. The horse trainer has been failing for years now. He just had Dr. buss as a safety net. no longer. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
TheBlackMamba Star Player
Joined: 23 Apr 2007 Posts: 9057
|
Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Why does it have to be so black and white? It's either Kobe destroyed the team, or Kobe saved this inept franchise...
The reality is that we managed to win two championships during his prime due to a combination of his greatness on the floor and excellent moves made by the front office to surround him with the right talent. Then, he got older and the FO's attempts to upgrade the talent around him have mostly backfired, but definitely not from a lack of trying. (bleep) happens. When teams are successful, it gets harder to hold onto players who have played a big role in that success (we extended Kobe and Pau, but at a significant cost) and keep improving the roster at the same time. That's why it's so amazing that the Spurs have managed to do what they've done over the last 15 years - it's simply unheard of in professional sports today.
But despite that success and the cap limitations that came with it, the FO still kept swinging for the fences and managed to pull off surprising trades for CP3, Nash, and Dwight. What happened after those moves is what it is - you can't expect them to have any control over a trade veto, Nash's body falling apart, or Dwight being the drama queen that he is. They did what they had to do, unfortunately it just didn't work out the way everyone envisioned. You can definitely argue that the coaching decisions over the last 3 years have been disappointing. to say the least, but that's hardly enough to call them "inept" after all the other moves they've made to make us a contender. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
ghost305 Starting Rotation
Joined: 07 Sep 2012 Posts: 165
|
Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:59 pm Post subject: Re: Honest Question: Did Kobe's greatness mask how inept the management of the team has been in the past 10 years? |
|
|
ROTL wrote: | ghost305 wrote: | 1)Traded Butler for Kwame
2)Refused to trade Bynum for Carmelo Anthony in 2011. Same Carmelo we tried to sign this offseason except that he's damn near 30 now.
3)Traded for Chris Paul but didn't wait for Owners to leave NY before announcing it.
4)Gave Kobe a max 3 year extension in 2010 when they knew Kobe's knees were shot and he was going to need way more help to contend for a championship
5)hired Mike Brown so he could make Andrew Bynum more of a focal point in the offense which indirectly marginalized Pau.
6)Traded away 4 draft picks(2 first and 2 second) for a 39 year old Point Guard and signed him to a 3yr27-28 million $ contract
7)Passed over Phil Jackson to hire Dantoni so they can build the offense around said 39 year old PG
8)Common sense said that We would have never be able to win a championship with such weak perimeter defense. Nash being added to team worsened our ability to defend the perimeter.
----
Why i said Kobe masked their ineptness? Because Kobe took a weaker team than all the Heat, Spurs, OKC to 3 straight Finals. In fact ORL was a better team than we were the year when we beat them in Finals. Our starting PG was Derek Fisher who was 35 and 36 respectively in the both years that we won. In fact I remember ESPN saying he was the worst starting point guard in the nba
Lebron for all his statistical greatness needed way more help than Kobe did to win a championship. Remember in 2007 all we needed was a borderline all star Andrew bynum to actually become a contender.
*Notice i didn't mention the pau gasol trade because memphis was looking to offload him for an expiring contract.
-Dwayne Missed a lot of games last battling yr knee problems. Kobe has had those knee injuries since 2010(the year we won the championship). It got worse in 2011. Read excerpts from PJ's book about that. And he still played 82 games.
-Kobe in 2013 was a shell of his former self and he was still as good as Carmelo Anthony in his prime. |
Yep. he also saved the frnahcise in 2007 with his trade demand. it got those lazy SOBs off their butts to improve the team and brought dr. Buss back to run the team. The horse trainer has been failing for years now. He just had Dr. buss as a safety net. no longer. |
You do know that knee problems is what forced Kobe to demand the trade right?? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Treble Clef Franchise Player
Joined: 20 Nov 2012 Posts: 23744
|
Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: Honest Question: Did Kobe's greatness mask how inept the management of the team has been in the past 10 years? |
|
|
ghost305 wrote: | 1)Traded Butler for Kwame
2)Refused to trade Bynum for Carmelo Anthony in 2011. Same Carmelo we tried to sign this offseason except that he's damn near 30 now.
3)Traded for Chris Paul but didn't wait for Owners to leave NY before announcing it.
4)Gave Kobe a max 3 year extension in 2010 when they knew Kobe's knees were shot and he was going to need way more help to contend for a championship
5)hired Mike Brown so he could make Andrew Bynum more of a focal point in the offense which indirectly marginalized Pau.
6)Traded away 4 draft picks(2 first and 2 second) for a 39 year old Point Guard and signed him to a 3yr27-28 million $ contract
7)Passed over Phil Jackson to hire Dantoni so they can build the offense around said 39 year old PG
8)Common sense said that We would have never be able to win a championship with such weak perimeter defense. Nash being added to team worsened our ability to defend the perimeter.
----
Why i said Kobe masked their ineptness? Because Kobe took a weaker team than all the Heat, Spurs, OKC to 3 straight Finals. In fact ORL was a better team than we were the year when we beat them in Finals. Our starting PG was Derek Fisher who was 35 and 36 respectively in the both years that we won. In fact I remember ESPN saying he was the worst starting point guard in the nba
Lebron for all his statistical greatness needed way more help than Kobe did to win a championship. Remember in 2007 all we needed was a borderline all star Andrew bynum to actually become a contender.
*Notice i didn't mention the pau gasol trade because memphis was looking to offload him for an expiring contract.
-Dwayne Missed a lot of games last battling yr knee problems. Kobe has had those knee injuries since 2010(the year we won the championship). It got worse in 2011. Read excerpts from PJ's book about that. And he still played 82 games.
-Kobe in 2013 was a shell of his former self and he was still as good as Carmelo Anthony in his prime. |
Name a front office that looks good when you point out every unsuccessful move they've made while completely ignoring every single good one.
I'll be waiting. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
kikanga Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29150 Location: La La Land
|
Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 3:17 pm Post subject: Re: Honest Question: Did Kobe's greatness mask how inept the management of the team has been in the past 10 years? |
|
|
ghost305 wrote: | 1)Traded Butler for Kwame
2)Refused to trade Bynum for Carmelo Anthony in 2011. Same Carmelo we tried to sign this offseason except that he's damn near 30 now.
3)Traded for Chris Paul but didn't wait for Owners to leave NY before announcing it.
4)Gave Kobe a max 3 year extension in 2010 when they knew Kobe's knees were shot and he was going to need way more help to contend for a championship
5)hired Mike Brown so he could make Andrew Bynum more of a focal point in the offense which indirectly marginalized Pau.
6)Traded away 4 draft picks(2 first and 2 second) for a 39 year old Point Guard and signed him to a 3yr27-28 million $ contract
7)Passed over Phil Jackson to hire Dantoni so they can build the offense around said 39 year old PG
8)Common sense said that We would have never be able to win a championship with such weak perimeter defense. Nash being added to team worsened our ability to defend the perimeter.
----
Why i said Kobe masked their ineptness? Because Kobe took a weaker team than all the Heat, Spurs, OKC to 3 straight Finals. In fact ORL was a better team than we were the year when we beat them in Finals. Our starting PG was Derek Fisher who was 35 and 36 respectively in the both years that we won. In fact I remember ESPN saying he was the worst starting point guard in the nba
Lebron for all his statistical greatness needed way more help than Kobe did to win a championship. Remember in 2007 all we needed was a borderline all star Andrew bynum to actually become a contender.
*Notice i didn't mention the pau gasol trade because memphis was looking to offload him for an expiring contract.
-Dwayne Missed a lot of games last battling yr knee problems. Kobe has had those knee injuries since 2010(the year we won the championship). It got worse in 2011. Read excerpts from PJ's book about that. And he still played 82 games.
-Kobe in 2013 was a shell of his former self and he was still as good as Carmelo Anthony in his prime. |
Great post. Not surprised it got merged.
We do have the benefit of hindsight and some of those decisions I supported when they happened. But its not my job. Mitch and Jim have incentives, resources, access, and experience that the average Laker fan doesn't. Mitch and Jim should be compared to their peers. The current front offices in San Antonio, OKC, Clippers, Golden State, and Miami.
Would R.C. Buford trade Butler for Kwame or nix a Bynum for Melo trade?
Would Sam Presti trade away 4 draft picks for a player like 39 year old Nash?
Would Doc Rivers ever give preference to his 2nd best big man over his 1st?
Would Pat Riley make a unpopular blockbuster trade in the midst of a heated collective bargaining negotiation? _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Treble Clef Franchise Player
Joined: 20 Nov 2012 Posts: 23744
|
Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 4:18 pm Post subject: Re: Honest Question: Did Kobe's greatness mask how inept the management of the team has been in the past 10 years? |
|
|
kikanga wrote: |
We do have the benefit of hindsight and some of those decisions I supported when they happened. But its not my job. Mitch and Jim have incentives, resources, access, and experience that the average Laker fan doesn't. Mitch and Jim should be compared to their peers. The current front offices in San Antonio, OKC, Clippers, Golden State, and Miami.
Would R.C. Buford trade Butler for Kwame or nix a Bynum for Melo trade?
Would Sam Presti trade away 4 draft picks for a player like 39 year old Nash?
Would Doc Rivers ever give preference to his 2nd best big man over his 1st?
Would Pat Riley make a unpopular blockbuster trade in the midst of a heated collective bargaining negotiation? |
When the Lakers trade Butler for Kwame, Butler was a young guy that could score a little but often looked lost out there and Kwame was an elite post defender, something the Lakers were sorely lacking (not to mention that the Lakers eventually swapped Kwame for Pau). Most fans were very happy with that deal when it went down, they traded small for big and their current bigs were a beaten up Chris Mihm and a bunch of old guys.
Bynum for Melo? Just about everyone was against that.
4 picks for Nash? Those 4 picks were the type that the Lakers always tried to give away. They were expecting to contend so those low 1st round picks eat up a lot of cap space for a guy that's not going to be an impact. Even with the Lakers being much worse than expected, the picks they traded so far have only turned into the great Nemanja Nedovic.
Preference to their 2nd best big man over their first? Are you talking about Pau over Bynum? The "soft" Pau that the fans were all sick of and wanted to be traded?
Blockbuster trade during a bargaining session? I did not hear ONE SINGLE PERSON ANYWHERE saying "hey, stop the trade, let the owners all leave the meeting first". You don't sit around waiting when a steal like that is available and no one expected the trade to be foiled. Are we going to pretend that the owners all don't have phones and they would have been unable to communicate their disgust with the Lakers being handed another star player?
Lakers front office is doing great. These criticisms are crazy. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
AllorNothing Franchise Player
Joined: 08 Oct 2001 Posts: 18448
|
Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 4:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
We didn't want butler because it was time to get paid for him. And don't diss Kwame because that translated into gasol. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
MJST Retired Number
Joined: 06 Jul 2014 Posts: 26085
|
Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 4:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
If you break it down.
Compare the teams Kobe took to the Finals in 2007-2008/2008-2009/2009-2010
And compare them to any of the Bulls 3-peat teams, the Heat or the Celtics.
And I can guarantee you that Kobe took one of the hardest teams to three straight finals. They looked like they were headed there before Bynum went down with his injury as well. It says more about the greatness of Kobe that he took that team to three straight finals.
Even if we look at the Bulls in their second three-peat. Everyone tries to say that Jordan "getting in shape" was all it took for that second run of championships.
But in reality it was the acquisition of Rodman who could go down as one of the NBA's greatest defenders ever, and greatest rebounder. So it wasn't exactly joe schmoe.
The only time Kobe would have the "super team" to the finals in recent years was when they got Chris Paul and were about a few weeks away from signing Dwight Howard after that deal had it gone through.
But alas, we know what happened there. Stern vetoed it. If he hadn't, LeBron(who had just lost to the Mavs) probably never would have won a championship and Kobe would have about 7 and ESPN would stop ignoring him in the Jordan debate when they always try to bring LeBron up.
And say what you will about the front office but the run they just came off of is the closest to their 80s run as it's gotten in the NBA the last few years
From 1980-1990 The Lakers appeared in the Finals 8 times.
From 2000-2010 the Lakers appeared in the Finals 7 times.
That's saying something. Imagine if the Chris Paul veto never happens. The Lakers probably appear in 3 of the last 4 Finals as well and Kobe likely is working on his 8th ring this year if he hasn't retired satisfied. and if Kobe retired then we'd be talking about Cp3 and Dwight(no back injury) bringing in Carmelo in 2014 and if we missed out on him, Durant in 2016.
So... there's a lot of stuff that got taken from us with that once in a lifetime veto. But at the end of the day Stern didn't just rob Kobe of rings, he robbed CP3 of them too. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
KOBE2007MVP Starting Rotation
Joined: 21 May 2006 Posts: 425
|
Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:48 pm Post subject: The curse of Phil Jackson!? |
|
|
Ever since the Lakers' brass spurned PJ and hired that idiot D'Antoni overnight, the Lakers have been cursed!!! I mean can you believe these injuries one after another? guys dropping like flies last year and again this year! what a nightmare season this is going to be!!!! _________________ "Names don't win championships, Teams do!" - Jerry West |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Treble Clef Franchise Player
Joined: 20 Nov 2012 Posts: 23744
|
Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:56 pm Post subject: Re: The curse of Phil Jackson!? |
|
|
KOBE2007MVP wrote: | Ever since the Lakers' brass spurned PJ and hired that idiot D'Antoni overnight, the Lakers have been cursed!!! I mean can you believe these injuries one after another? guys dropping like flies last year and again this year! what a nightmare season this is going to be!!!! |
The Lakers were in bad shape before that ever happened, hence why they were even interviewing for a new coach. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Jim99187 Franchise Player
Joined: 03 Jan 2014 Posts: 22138
|
Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Fcuk phil jackson |
|
Back to top |
|
|
lakersken80 Retired Number
Joined: 12 Aug 2009 Posts: 38751
|
Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Sorry, but this is what happens in a normal NBA cycle....win championships, slowly lose your competitive advantage due to low draft picks and players getting old....of course some teams defy those inhibitors to competitiveness like the Spurs front office. They are the exception rather than the norm. The hated Celtics are where we are now, so I expect our rivalry to renew in the future once again. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Lakerfan 4 Life Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Apr 2001 Posts: 16070
|
Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
No. It's the curse of Kobe's arm sleeve. It's brought a lot of bad luck through the years of him wearing it. 2008 Finals, everything about the horrible 2013 season, Kobe and Nash injured again in 2014 and now Steve, Nick and Julius' injuries. Bring back the elbow band, Kobe. That has brought us 5 NBA Championships.
Last edited by Lakerfan 4 Life on Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
freethrow Starting Rotation
Joined: 23 Oct 2014 Posts: 449 Location: 15 miles from Staples Center
|
Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Mike Brown hiring was worse imo |
|
Back to top |
|
|
JoJo Dancer Star Player
Joined: 25 Dec 2011 Posts: 7474
|
Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
It was before that. It all starts in the Spring of 2011 when they fired all those long time staffers. Jimbo is paying the piper to the basketball gods |
|
Back to top |
|
|
PLATNUM Star Player
Joined: 17 Dec 2002 Posts: 7111 Location: L.A.
|
Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
JoJo Dancer wrote: | It was before that. It all starts in the Spring of 2011 when they fired all those long time staffers. Jimbo is paying the piper to the basketball gods |
+1
They announced they were "letting go" of all those long time Laker personnel DURING the playoff run. The writing was on the wall.
_________________ "Dread it, run from it... destiny arrives all the same." |
|
Back to top |
|
|
freethrow Starting Rotation
Joined: 23 Oct 2014 Posts: 449 Location: 15 miles from Staples Center
|
Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Jerry Buss was still in charge when that happened. Jim took over that summer iirc |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dabask11 Star Player
Joined: 27 Dec 2012 Posts: 1989
|
Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
JoJo Dancer wrote: | It was before that. It all starts in the Spring of 2011 when they fired all those long time staffers. Jimbo is paying the piper to the basketball gods |
Yet we were relatively healthy that year, despite being a condensed season. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
JoJo Dancer Star Player
Joined: 25 Dec 2011 Posts: 7474
|
Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
dabask11 wrote: | JoJo Dancer wrote: | It was before that. It all starts in the Spring of 2011 when they fired all those long time staffers. Jimbo is paying the piper to the basketball gods |
Yet we were relatively healthy that year, despite being a condensed season. |
The franchise has been a disaster since that time. On and off the court. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Drifts Retired Number
Joined: 22 Nov 2004 Posts: 28374
|
Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
More like curse of Byron’s stupid offense _________________ "Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it." |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|