View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
LA_Lakers_Rule Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Aug 2004 Posts: 19482 Location: The X-Files
|
Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 10:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
Harlemlakerfan wrote: | He said that he worked out with Kobe all summer yet, i see zero improvement. |
hmmm.... hasn't it just been four games so far this pre-season? _________________ Rule = win titles
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ... |
|
Back to top |
|
|
greenfrog Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jan 2011 Posts: 36081 Location: 502 Bad Gateway
|
Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 10:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | Harlemlakerfan wrote: | He said that he worked out with Kobe all summer yet, i see zero improvement. |
hmmm.... hasn't it just been four games so far this pre-season? |
Of all the players for him to work out with I can't see what the benefit would be for him working out with Kobe. Post-moves and footwork? He needs to work on his 3-point shot. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
MJST Retired Number
Joined: 06 Jul 2014 Posts: 26085
|
Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
Wes' handle is better. But you're not gonna count on him to use it nor create his own shot.
Like I said, Wes entire game is predicated on two things, rim running/basket cutting and three point shots. He is never giving you more than that.
With Ronnie Price as the point guard, whom can't pass and doesn't look to, nor does he penetrate to open the perimeter about 3/4ths of Wes' offensive game is cut off. Wes cannot confidently rim run with Price as his point guard. Even on the 3 on 2 fast break when Wes called for the oop, Price tried to pass it to him with a defender directly in front instead of simply lobbing it up to the basket... that's how bad Price is at passing it. All Wes can do when Price is his point guard is wait for an open three.
If you have a point guard that can pass like Blake, Nash, Lin, or Marshall(after the ygot chemistry). Wes will look awesome. When you have one like Farmar or Price, he will look crap, unless he's on fire with his jumper that night. That simple. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
greenfrog Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jan 2011 Posts: 36081 Location: 502 Bad Gateway
|
Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
MJST wrote: | Wes' handle is better. But you're not gonna count on him to use it nor create his own shot.
Like I said, Wes entire game is predicated on two things, rim running/basket cutting and three point shots. He is never giving you more than that.
With Ronnie Price as the point guard, whom can't pass and doesn't look to, nor does he penetrate to open the perimeter about 3/4ths of Wes' offensive game is cut off. Wes cannot confidently rim run with Price as his point guard. Even on the 3 on 2 fast break when Wes called for the oop, Price tried to pass it to him with a defender directly in front instead of simply lobbing it up to the basket... that's how bad Price is at passing it. All Wes can do when Price is his point guard is wait for an open three.
If you have a point guard that can pass like Blake, Nash, Lin, or Marshall(after the ygot chemistry). Wes will look awesome. When you have one like Farmar or Price, he will look crap, unless he's on fire with his jumper that night. That simple. |
If Lin's starting he's a part-time PG at best with Kobe doing a good share of the ball handling. Perhaps it's best for Lin and Wes to share time in the second unit then. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
MJST Retired Number
Joined: 06 Jul 2014 Posts: 26085
|
Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
Kobe's not doing a good share of the ball handling as you can see Kobe's role is coming off screens for open shots or posting up to either attack from there or pass from there.
He could get occasional pick and rolls sets but from what we've seen of the offense thus far, if Lin is starting then he'll spend a lot of time with the ball in his hands creating and his ability to drive to the basket and finish or dish along the perimeter or find cutters is a very important part of the offense which is why Scott has asked him to be more aggressive.
This isn't the "let Harden dribble for 23 seconds and wait off ball for your open three" Rockets offense. Byron actually wants Lin to do a fair share of scoring and creating for others like an actual point guard. This is why he got 10 assists in his first game. His chemistry with the first unit still needs to be built cause he's only played one game with them but it will come with 'time'. Which seems to be a curse word nowadays. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
greenfrog Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jan 2011 Posts: 36081 Location: 502 Bad Gateway
|
Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
MJST wrote: | Kobe's not doing a good share of the ball handling as you can see Kobe's role is coming off screens for open shots or posting up to either attack from there or pass from there.
He could get occasional pick and rolls sets but from what we've seen of the offense thus far, if Lin is starting then he'll spend a lot of time with the ball in his hands creating and his ability to drive to the basket and finish or dish along the perimeter or find cutters is a very important part of the offense which is why Scott has asked him to be more aggressive.
This isn't the "let Harden dribble for 23 seconds and wait off ball for your open three" Rockets offense. Byron actually wants Lin to do a fair share of scoring and creating for others like an actual point guard. This is why he got 10 assists in his first game. His chemistry with the first unit still needs to be built cause he's only played one game with them but it will come with 'time'. Which seems to be a curse word nowadays. |
He got 10 assists with the second unit, and Kobe in the post is not congruent with the type of offense Lin can run.
Last edited by greenfrog on Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dao Star Player
Joined: 02 Jan 2013 Posts: 5572
|
Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
MJST wrote: | It's very apparent that some people need to actually understand Wesley Johnson's game so they can stop being let down so much or on the other side of the spectrum stop overreacting so much.
I'll break it down..
Wesley Johnson is our quintessential 3 & D guy.
Wesley Johnson's Offensive game is basically predicated on two things. Rim Running/off-ball basket drives and 3 Pointers. That's it. He will never give you anything more. Stop expecting it.
Ronnie Price running the point guard, ie: someone that cannot pass, doesn't look to pass, and doesn't drive to the lane to open up the perimeter to pass.
This essentially cuts off 3/4ths of Wesley's game. Pretty much handcuffing what he can give us on offense, to just three pointers.
Because you aren't gonna ask him to put the ball on the floor, and you aren't gonna ask him to create a shot on his own. Because he isn't rim running if Price is the point guard, nor should he as Price will just turn it over, but more on that later
Wesley Johnson would look best when
1. Nash or Lin is his point guard
The reason why is because both of those point guards look to pass, and are also good to penetrate and open the lane, thus Wes could rim run confidently and expect a lob or something to finish, very much like what he was able to do with Steve Blake and why he looked so good with Steve Blake, why he looked crap next to Farmar, and why it took him a moment to look good with marshall till they gained chemistry and then he looked great again.
But with Ronnie Price running the point you need go only to one play to see why Wes can't rim run with him.
The Lakers had a 3 on 2 last game, in the open court, Wes is running asking for a lob... Price tries to throw the ball through a defender rather than lobbing it up to Wes, luckily Kobe catches the almost turnover and scores instead. Wes cannot rim run confidently with Ronnie Price as the starting point guard, and as I said, that's about 3/4ths of his offensive game.
Thus you will see him shooting open threes, and only shooting open threes, till Lin or Nash come back.
On the other side of the spectrum, we count on Wesley for his defense. Last game he had 4 steals and 1 block. Check there.
So once more, before you complain about Wesley Johnson.. first understand what kind of player he is, what he'll give you, and the kind of players he gels with. Price does him no favors and never will, unless he's feeling his jumper on a significant night. If you want to see the best out of Wes on the 'offensive' end. You'll need Nash or Lin(after they get some chemistry) quarterbacking for us. Anything else, will net you Wes only shooting 3s and that's really how simple it is. | A 3 and D player that is average at shooting 3s and average at playing defense is a basically scrub. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
MJST Retired Number
Joined: 06 Jul 2014 Posts: 26085
|
Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
dao wrote: | MJST wrote: | It's very apparent that some people need to actually understand Wesley Johnson's game so they can stop being let down so much or on the other side of the spectrum stop overreacting so much.
I'll break it down..
Wesley Johnson is our quintessential 3 & D guy.
Wesley Johnson's Offensive game is basically predicated on two things. Rim Running/off-ball basket drives and 3 Pointers. That's it. He will never give you anything more. Stop expecting it.
Ronnie Price running the point guard, ie: someone that cannot pass, doesn't look to pass, and doesn't drive to the lane to open up the perimeter to pass.
This essentially cuts off 3/4ths of Wesley's game. Pretty much handcuffing what he can give us on offense, to just three pointers.
Because you aren't gonna ask him to put the ball on the floor, and you aren't gonna ask him to create a shot on his own. Because he isn't rim running if Price is the point guard, nor should he as Price will just turn it over, but more on that later
Wesley Johnson would look best when
1. Nash or Lin is his point guard
The reason why is because both of those point guards look to pass, and are also good to penetrate and open the lane, thus Wes could rim run confidently and expect a lob or something to finish, very much like what he was able to do with Steve Blake and why he looked so good with Steve Blake, why he looked crap next to Farmar, and why it took him a moment to look good with marshall till they gained chemistry and then he looked great again.
But with Ronnie Price running the point you need go only to one play to see why Wes can't rim run with him.
The Lakers had a 3 on 2 last game, in the open court, Wes is running asking for a lob... Price tries to throw the ball through a defender rather than lobbing it up to Wes, luckily Kobe catches the almost turnover and scores instead. Wes cannot rim run confidently with Ronnie Price as the starting point guard, and as I said, that's about 3/4ths of his offensive game.
Thus you will see him shooting open threes, and only shooting open threes, till Lin or Nash come back.
On the other side of the spectrum, we count on Wesley for his defense. Last game he had 4 steals and 1 block. Check there.
So once more, before you complain about Wesley Johnson.. first understand what kind of player he is, what he'll give you, and the kind of players he gels with. Price does him no favors and never will, unless he's feeling his jumper on a significant night. If you want to see the best out of Wes on the 'offensive' end. You'll need Nash or Lin(after they get some chemistry) quarterbacking for us. Anything else, will net you Wes only shooting 3s and that's really how simple it is. | A 3 and D player that is average at shooting 3s and average at playing defense is a basically scrub. |
Wes was one of the only people in the NBA averaging a steal and a block in a game last year, his three point shooting was 37%. He's a three and D player.
His first game he looked good, injured his leg, played the 2nd game with the injury obviously still effecting him. 3rd game EVERYONE had a bad game due to being ran in practice. 4th game he cannot get into an offensive flow because the point guard he has cannot pass nor help set up 3/4ths of his offense predicating him to only 3 point shooting and with absolutely no rhythm his shot is off. The one time he tries to rim run Price almost turns it over and everytime he got the defender to commit one way so he could rim run Price passed the ball a fake too soon and it was a turnover.
So what we'll have to do with Wes till Lin and him gain chemistry or Nash comes back is to look at what he gives us defensively instead, because his offense is heavily reliant on the point guard. So looking at that, last game, he had 4 steals and a block, so check marks there. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
LA_Lakers_Rule Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Aug 2004 Posts: 19482 Location: The X-Files
|
Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
One thing to consider is that this team really needs defense... At least Wes does bring a reasonable level of defense.... which btw, is what Bryon is asking him to focus on.... _________________ Rule = win titles
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ... |
|
Back to top |
|
|
greenfrog Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jan 2011 Posts: 36081 Location: 502 Bad Gateway
|
Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | One thing to consider is that this team really needs defense... At least Wes does bring a reasonable level of defense.... which btw, is what Bryon is asking him to focus on.... |
His defense is only as good as his offense sadly. A lot of players struggle with this. If he could compartmentalize the two I'd have no issue with him. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
mhan00 Retired Number
Joined: 13 Apr 2001 Posts: 32025
|
Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Wes' defense is the same as his offense, it disappears for games at a time. He's pretty good at playing the passing lanes and getting some surprise blocks, but his individual defense is suspect and it looks like he gets lost on rotations. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
DJ Slik Starting Rotation
Joined: 11 Jul 2014 Posts: 432
|
Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
wes had the absolute misfortune of having played 2 straight guarding klay who treated him like a red haired stepchild. he's better than he's looked....but as starting 3s in the league go.... |
|
Back to top |
|
|
MJST Retired Number
Joined: 06 Jul 2014 Posts: 26085
|
Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
as far as starting 3s in the league go there's only three to worry about significantly.
LeBron, Durant and Carmelo. George is out, and the next best guys after that are Rudy Gay and Terrance Ross.
People think about LeBron and Durant when they think of threes, but there's a severe lack of depth at the small forward position which is why only about 4 significantly stand out. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
RI Laker Star Player
Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 7135
|
Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Johnson is a not a good player (although he can tease you once in a while) and working with KB will not change anything. I am glad he is on the team at sub 1mill salary, but he should be sitting at the end of the bench. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
KeepItRealOrElse Retired Number
Joined: 11 Oct 2012 Posts: 32767
|
Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 3:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
MJST wrote: | as far as starting 3s in the league go there's only three to worry about significantly.
LeBron, Durant and Carmelo. George is out, and the next best guys after that are Rudy Gay and Terrance Ross.
People think about LeBron and Durant when they think of threes, but there's a severe lack of depth at the small forward position which is why only about 4 significantly stand out. |
Wes is on the floor to guard the oppenents best wing player, whether he's a 6'6 SG or a 6'8 SF. there are a lot of great offensive players we have to worry about him guarding. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
LakerLand247 Star Player
Joined: 26 Sep 2009 Posts: 4809
|
Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 3:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
MJST = Wesley Johnson's PR? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
crackadon Star Player
Joined: 11 Aug 2013 Posts: 1012
|
Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 3:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
LakerLand247 wrote: | MJST = Wesley Johnson's PR? |
hahahaha
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
|
Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 3:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
MJST wrote: | as far as starting 3s in the league go there's only three to worry about significantly.
LeBron, Durant and Carmelo. George is out, and the next best guys after that are Rudy Gay and Terrance Ross.
People think about LeBron and Durant when they think of threes, but there's a severe lack of depth at the small forward position which is why only about 4 significantly stand out. |
That's more of an indictment on Wes than anything else.
Wes is an average NBA player. Sometimes people expect more because he wears a Laker uniform but he's the same player under the jersey. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
MJST Retired Number
Joined: 06 Jul 2014 Posts: 26085
|
Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 4:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Thing is you have to already know what Wes can and can't do. What he's good at and what he's bad at .
if you understand the kind of player he is, none of what he's done is any surprise. Offensively he's 99.9% of the time not gonna look good next to Price unless he's feeling his jumper that night or Price somehow learns how to pass.
We're gonna have to wait for Lin or Nash to come back and get chemistry with Wes down before we expect much. Cause with Ronnie there 3/4ths of what Wes can do is pretty much null and voided. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
jenopogi Starting Rotation
Joined: 11 Jul 2014 Posts: 253
|
Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 5:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
MJST wrote: | Kobe's not doing a good share of the ball handling as you can see Kobe's role is coming off screens for open shots or posting up to either attack from there or pass from there.
He could get occasional pick and rolls sets but from what we've seen of the offense thus far, if Lin is starting then he'll spend a lot of time with the ball in his hands creating and his ability to drive to the basket and finish or dish along the perimeter or find cutters is a very important part of the offense which is why Scott has asked him to be more aggressive.
This isn't the "let Harden dribble for 23 seconds and wait off ball for your open three" Rockets offense. Byron actually wants Lin to do a fair share of scoring and creating for others like an actual point guard. This is why he got 10 assists in his first game. His chemistry with the first unit still needs to be built cause he's only played one game with them but it will come with 'time'. Which seems to be a curse word nowadays. |
Kobe does things with purpose. Never a wasted moment. I just rewatched the Jazz game, man, Harden is far away from Kobe if we start comparing game styles. I can not remember a point in the game wherein Kobe pass off to a teammate with 3 sec in a shot clock. _________________ JL#7 in Purple and Gold. Shoutout to my Lakers4Life Buddy Ian M. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
jenopogi Starting Rotation
Joined: 11 Jul 2014 Posts: 253
|
Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 5:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
MJST wrote: | Thing is you have to already know what Wes can and can't do. What he's good at and what he's bad at .
if you understand the kind of player he is, none of what he's done is any surprise. Offensively he's 99.9% of the time not gonna look good next to Price unless he's feeling his jumper that night or Price somehow learns how to pass.
We're gonna have to wait for Lin or Nash to come back and get chemistry with Wes down before we expect much. Cause with Ronnie there 3/4ths of what Wes can do is pretty much null and voided. |
Wes did fake his team mates twice! resulting in turn-overs. In almost successive Lakers offensive plays. Man, what's up with that. If you are unpredictable, how can your guards trust to pass you the ball. I was happy earlier to know that he will play SF vs PF, and he likes to be as SF. After 3 preseasons, maybe there was a reason they stick him to PF. _________________ JL#7 in Purple and Gold. Shoutout to my Lakers4Life Buddy Ian M. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
LakerLogic Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Mar 2005 Posts: 17886
|
Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 5:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
He is a space cadet. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
greenfrog Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jan 2011 Posts: 36081 Location: 502 Bad Gateway
|
Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
LakerLogic wrote: | He is a space cadet. |
This. Never has a term been more apt. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
DimesnD Starting Rotation
Joined: 14 Feb 2009 Posts: 944
|
Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
MJST wrote: |
Wes was one of the only people in the NBA averaging a steal and a block in a game last year, his three point shooting was 37%. He's a three and D player. |
I believe out of all SF, only Josh Smith was able to do that. Wes came close .97 blocks per game. but yeah I give it to him. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
automatic Starting Rotation
Joined: 08 Oct 2014 Posts: 103
|
Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
DimesnD wrote: | MJST wrote: |
Wes was one of the only people in the NBA averaging a steal and a block in a game last year, his three point shooting was 37%. He's a three and D player. |
I believe out of all SF, only Josh Smith was able to do that. Wes came close .97 blocks per game. but yeah I give it to him. |
When I was growing up, I remember Dr. J regularly averaging well over 2 steals a game and close to 2 blocks a game year after year. And it's not like he was defending slouches at that position with guys like Worthy, Wilkes, Bird, Marques Johnson, Alex English, Purvis Short, Adrian Dantley, Bernard King, Mark Aguirre, and other stars manning that spot. Even in his farewell season at age 36, he put up 1.3/1.6 as a shooting guard in only 32 minutes a game. Puts many of today's "athletic" small forwards to shame, including today's defensive stopper and self-proclaimed DPOY Lebron who has never averaged more than 1.1 blocks in a season and was down to 0.3 last year:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/ervinju01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|