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OFFICIAL BYRON SCOTT THREAD.....BREAKING NEWS...BYRON OFFICIALLY FIRED (Page 690)!!!
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kikanga
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Joined: 15 Sep 2012
Posts: 29333
Location: La La Land

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:16 pm Post subject:

maomao wrote:

Voices wrote:

maomao wrote:

I don't get it, some of you come into a coaching discussion thread to say that coaching doesn't matter and talent wins championships. Why are you discussing or defending our coach if you think that coaching doesn't matter?

Are you sure about your question? This conversation is about coaching not about BS, he just happens to be the coach of the Lakers crappy roster that no coach in history could win with.

that's exactly my point, if you don't think BS's coaching matters, why come into this thread? There is no point to discuss what BS does coaching the lakers if you think coaching doesn't matter in today's NBA.

Because the Official Lakers Roster P&M Thread doesn't exist.

Because after 3 coaches in 3 seasons it becomes obvious the limitations coaching can have on a team.

Kobe playing 25% of the games the last two years is a way bigger issue than scott and that's just 1 piece of the roster.

This is Kobe's third season ending injury in 3 years and people wanna blame Scott?

Wesley Johnson looks lost on the court like he has his whole career and its Scott's fault?

Hill, boozer and sacre are our big men and our defensive rotations suck?! Must be the coach!

I laugh at the thought coaching is holding back our roster.

With randle and kobe injured most of the season. Scott's hasn't had his two highest upside players anywhere near 100%.

If coaching could change scrubs into average or above average players, the worst teams in the league wouldn't have revolving doors for their coaching staffs.
Nearly 1/3 of the league hired new coaches since last year. And over half the league makes the playoffs! http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2014/7/27/5941639/challenges-ahead-nba-head-coaching-changes-2014
That's just 1 year. If I went back over the past 2 to 3 years. I'm sure the coaching changeover numbers for the bottom of the league would be even more prevalent.
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tirebiter
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Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:21 pm Post subject:

Lostology wrote:

Who do you think will make Lakers better? A. Davis coached by Byron Scott or Steve Kerr? If Steve Kerr coached the Lakers now they would have more wins. If Byron Scott coached this years Warriors team they would not be the best team in the league. He would probably have Klay and Curry standing around while Lee and Bogut shoot long 2s. Superstars win championships but coaching with a good offensive and defensive system takes those superstars to that level. Look at what Pat Riley did for Knicks and what happened to them when he left. Look at what happened when Riley took over the heat. It's like OKC with Durant and Westbrook. If Phil or Pop coached that OKC team they would win at least one championship. Superstars carry the team but cannot get over the hump without a great coach. Wasn't it Phil Jackson that Kobe listened to and fell in line to that help win championships? Would Kobe have taken a backseat to Shaq with any other coach? Coaches make a big difference. Not just with the Xs and Os but understanding the flow of the game and knowing your players. Does Byron Scott see something in Sacre that he should start? Or all those minutes that Price got over Lin and Clarkson?

very good points. but not sure if this can be applied to the laker. reasons being...

i'm not so sure that scott is trying to win with what he has on this team. i'm not so sure that the FO is asking him to try to win with what he has. maybe that's why you hear jeanie talking about giving these guys a chance to try to win in the beginning of the season, which seems odd for her to stress that; as if her and jim were not on the same page as to the goal of the team this year.

i say this because based on what scott is doing, he seems like he's building HIS team, for the long term, based on what he's looking for, rather than leveraging what he has on the squad to try to win. he's got 15 players on this team. if 14 of the players do not ascribe what he wants, he's fine with letting all of them go and start over next year. this is what happens with a squad made up of 1 yr rentals.

scott has no incentive to win with this squad. he has no incentive to create a system (offense AND defense) to maximize the potential of this current squad. he knows what he wants to build, what he wants to run, and if you don't fit that mold, then you're out. whether his vision of a championship caliber team and scheme is valid or not is another discussion. but clearly, he's not in it this year to win, but to pick and select who he wants on his future team out of this makeshift squad.

this is especially evident now. he even said it himself - he wants to see what he's got. and that's his prerogative - he's the coach.

Reflexx
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Posts: 11163

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:35 pm Post subject:

Voices has made this a thread that will be worth remembering through the ages.

maomao
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Posts: 841

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:56 pm Post subject:

kikanga wrote:

Because the Official Lakers Roster P&M Thread doesn't exist.

make one

Quote:

Because after 3 coaches in 3 seasons it becomes obvious the limitations coaching can have on a team.

some how we're better last year without kobe.

Quote:

Kobe playing 25% of the games the last two years is a way bigger issue than scott and that's just 1 piece of the roster.

well even scott admit that he over used kobe

Quote:

This is Kobe's third season ending injury in 3 years and people wanna blame Scott?

why not, we blamed MDA

Quote:

Wesley Johnson looks lost on the court like he has his whole career and its Scott's fault?

almost everyone looks lost on the court = scott's fault
wes playing a lot of minutes = scott's fault

Quote:

Hill, boozer and sacre are our big men and our defensive rotations suck?! Must be the coach!

his fault for even play sacre, his fault to not give davis/black more minutes

Quote:

I laugh at the thought coaching is holding back our roster.

as evidence above

Quote:

If coaching could change scrubs into average or above average players, the worst teams in the league wouldn't have revolving doors for their coaching staffs

.

worst teams tend of to have the worst coaches.

madddogg
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Posts: 182

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:17 pm Post subject:

Voices wrote:

Coaching in the NBA, there is very little difference in coaching ability, basketball is not that complicated. The fundamentals in basketball are the same as 50 years ago, basketball is a very instinctive sport. Football on the other hand is very complicated, the difference is football stops the action after every play, in basketball play stops on fouls and timeouts otherwise the game just continues to evolve and players react to what is required. That's why b ball IQ is so important, coaches don't set up offense, most b ball play just happens. I wish some on this board would stop with coaching matters most. Look at the college game, no difference, the best coaches are the ones that are the best recruiters. Talent wins, mental and physical talent.

Instincts do matter, it can seperate a good player from a great player but so coaching matters a lot.

What do you think happens in practice? The coach makes the players practice running plays and makes in game adjustments by running different sets and using different line ups. He makes the call to double team players, to trap, to manage the game.

villavs
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Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:35 pm Post subject:

Voices wrote:

freethrow wrote:

You know you're scraping the bottom if the only way you can defend a coach is to say that coaching doesn't matter.

Who is saying coaching does not matter?

Let me make this perfectly clear talent wins championships, it means coaching takes a backseat to talent.

Did the Cavs get better because of the coach or LJ getting healthy? You see how simple the game is, get James back healthy and you start winning, get Noah back healthy and end GS 19 game home winning streak.

I'm sure you agree that coaching takes a backseat to talent, and that you don't win without championships without talent.

I think everyone agrees that you need a talented team to win championships. But IMHO, I also think that you need a good coach to win championships. Therefore, the contribution of the coach cannot be ignored.

Question: which of the NBA teams that had won a championship had a bad coach and why do you think they were a bad coach?

LakersNewEra
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Location: Vancouver BC

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:53 pm Post subject:

Byron is an awful coach with an awful roster. Incompetent FO.

kikanga
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Joined: 15 Sep 2012
Posts: 29333
Location: La La Land

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:19 pm Post subject:

kikanga wrote:

Because the Official Lakers Roster P&M Thread doesn't exist.

maomao wrote:

make one

No thanks.

Quote:

Because after 3 coaches in 3 seasons it becomes obvious the limitations coaching can have on a team.

maomao wrote:

some how we're better last year without kobe.

Pau gasol

Quote:

Kobe playing 25% of the games the last two years is a way bigger issue than scott and that's just 1 piece of the roster.

maomao wrote:

well even scott admit that he over used kobe

And kobe admitted it wasn't Scott's fault. And it's Kobe's body. So he would know

Quote:

This is Kobe's third season ending injury in 3 years and people wanna blame Scott?

maomao wrote:

why not, we blamed MDA

And maybe we shouldn't have.

Quote:

Wesley Johnson looks lost on the court like he has his whole career and its Scott's fault?

maomao wrote:

almost everyone looks lost on the court = scott's fault
wes playing a lot of minutes = scott's fault

Almost everyone on court= bench player at best, draft busts, throwaways, d-leaguers, or 2nd round picks. That's why we won't be offering many player extensions.

Quote:

Hill, boozer and sacre are our big men and our defensive rotations suck?! Must be the coach!

maomao wrote:

his fault for even play sacre, his fault to not give davis/black more minutes

What about hill and boozer. And their history of defensive deficiency. He moved davis to the starting lineup and started black quickly

Quote:

I laugh at the thought coaching is holding back our roster.

maomao wrote:

as evidence above

No evidence above accepted

Quote:

If coaching could change scrubs into average or above average players, the worst teams in the league wouldn't have revolving doors for their coaching staffs

maomao wrote:

worst teams tend of to have the worst coaches.

False. Worse teams tend to have worst rosters.
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Reflexx
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Joined: 25 Jun 2005
Posts: 11163

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:44 pm Post subject:

Some people really need to check out the X's and O's thread more.

VegasLakerFan
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Posts: 1835

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:35 pm Post subject:

philnyc wrote:

VegasLakerFan wrote:

philnyc wrote:

LoyalLakerfan44 wrote:

When Byron had great players he went to finals, even rookie coaches like Kerr win when the talent is there. Don't forget superstar talent is what makes coaches legendary. Phil wouldn't be mentioned if not for MJ, Shaq and Kobe.

Other than Jason Kidd (who couldn't stand Byron), what "great player" did Byron go to the finals with? Kerry Kittles? Keith Van Horn? Jim McIlvaine?

You kinda just made his point for him.

Huh...so you think Kerry Kittles, KVH and Jim McIlvaine are superstar talents?

No I don't - which is, again, the entire point. Scott's team got to the finals with one great player.

Quote:

As many Nets fans will attest to, those Nets got to the finals despite Scott, not because of him.

And fans are always spot on. I mean, look at all the finals the Nets have been to since Byron left. Clear evidence that they reached those finals "despite" Byron.

Quote:

Eddie Jordan's system, Lawrence Frank's attention to detail, and Kidd's leadership on the court got them there in a very weak Eastern Conference.

Oh yeah - Eddie Jordan and Lawrence Frank have both gone on to do amazing things since then. They were clearly the reason for Byron's success in New Jersey. How did they help him in New Orleans, though?

Never said Jordan and Frank were great head coaches, but it was pretty well-documented that Jordan was the one who brought the Princeton system to the Nets. And Frank is a good enough assistant get get hired by Doc Rivers both in Boston and with the Clippers.

How many finals have they been to without Byron?

Quote:

What did Byron do in New Orleans? Got to the playoffs twice in 6 years?

Went from an 18-win team to a 56-win team that took the reigning champs to a seventh game. Not spectacular, but it shows what he can when he has at least one player on his team.

VegasLakerFan
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Joined: 25 Dec 2011
Posts: 1835

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:40 pm Post subject:

tirebiter wrote:

VegasLakerFan wrote:

In this analogy our "driver" hasn't even left the garage yet because the "car" wouldn't start. You can't run red lights in a car that won't run.

yeah but it's still a car, and there are a few basic things that the driver can't even do regardless of the type of car he's in, such as latching on the seat belt, adjust the mirrors so he can see properly, know whether he has an automatic or manual, gas or diesel, etc...

but seriously, a lot of his head scratching decisions this year has nothing to do with the quality of the talent on the team. i don't think people are upset at the wins and losses, although that's part of it. people are questioning his decision making skills, the way he manages a team and personnel, his commitment to the team despite the talent level (have you ever heard of a coach forgetting the time of a game??), his insistence on fitting square pegs into round holes, etc..

I think a lot of the "head scratchers" are because he's not really trying to win. He's trying to see who can do what. Playing Kelly at the three is a great example. I think its pretty obvious that he isn't a three, but maybe he's got some Robert Horry in him (at least offensively). Now is the time to find out, not when we've got a team with a chance to win.

Did he really forget the time of a game? I don't doubt you, but that's more funny than concerning to me. I don't doubt his commitment for a second.

Voices
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Posts: 8287
Location: Oxnard, Ca.

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:41 pm Post subject:

villavs wrote:

Voices wrote:

freethrow wrote:

You know you're scraping the bottom if the only way you can defend a coach is to say that coaching doesn't matter.

I do believe that is a question for yourself. I'm not talking about bad coaches, most NBA coaches are excellent coaches, when they have talent they win, it's that simple.
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VegasLakerFan
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Posts: 1835

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:43 pm Post subject:

jlinfan wrote:

followwind wrote:

Those of you who still think the jury is still out on Byron, please enlighten me on this subject:

Kobe's play time.

I am all ears.

Nobody is responding because it's a stupid question. Kobe looked fantastic and said he felt fine, so he got more playing time. As his game took a dip Byron started resting him more.

If Kobe had played 35 mpg instead of 37 mpg in November we'd still be where we are now.

VegasLakerFan
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Posts: 1835

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:47 pm Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:

kikanga wrote:

Couldn't agree more with Voices, Vegas, and loyal.

On the list of Lakers problems, the roster is waaaaaay higher on the list than Scott's coaching.

Who's the best player on this team right now? Who's the most consistent? Jordan Hill?
That's never a good sign.

Scott has played Clarkson, Price, and Lin at starting and backup point guard. In every case we're well below .500.

He's played Hill, Davis, Boozer, and Black with varying minutes. The results barely changed.

He doesn't have the luxury of his 1st round draft pick either (randle).

This roster is horrible, it's hard to see how they have been "held back" in any way. Scott made it to the second round of the playoffs as coach of a top 10 offense and a top 10 defense (different years). But this roster doesn't have that aptitude on either end of the floor.

Defense is our biggest issue, Scott and his coaching staff changed the defense in the Toronto game. We still are horrible.
Boozer, Lin, Kobe, Young, Hill were all bad defenders before they came here.
Wes, Kelly, and Ellington have been "space-cadets" defensively before Scott as well.

Give Scott a good roster that can be at least average on both ends of the floor, then evaluate. I'm glad the FO seems to be on the same page as me and the posters I named above.

More talent would help the team of course, but even if we got more talent, I think Byron would be holding them back.

The way I see it, the current offense system doesn't even try to get efficient shots, and often defaults into pickup ball.

I don't understand this one. People always rag on the offense, and yet this Laker team is middle-of-the-pack in terms of offensive efficiency - despite having no real offensive talent.

VegasLakerFan
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Posts: 1835

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:51 pm Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:

Look at Brad Stevens. That's the type of coach you want. When they get a real team he will have the infrastructure in place; Lakers will have to get a new coach.

You realize the Lakers and Boston are tied in offensive efficiency this year? Brad Stevens has a "great system" and Byron is just "winging it," and yet the numbers are strikingly similar.

maomao
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Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:53 pm Post subject:

Voices wrote:

villavs wrote:

Voices wrote:

freethrow wrote:

You know you're scraping the bottom if the only way you can defend a coach is to say that coaching doesn't matter.

I do believe that is a question for yourself. I'm not talking about bad coaches, most NBA coaches are excellent coaches, when they have talent they win, it's that simple.

Please that's simply not true. Excellent coaches are few and far between. That's why they not only command money and also power over the front offices.

Anyways I really don't know to say to those who want to discuss the importance of coaching in a coaching discussion thread. If you feel coaching is not important, there is no need to discuss it with those that feel otherwise.

fiendishoc
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Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:59 pm Post subject:

They've already fallen to the bottom 10 offensively, and will fall further, partly due to Kobe's absence, but a also a lot to do with other teams getting used to their more sophisticated offensive systems. The common view going into the season was that the Lakers only had one way talent, and that talent was on offense end. Kobe, Hill, Boozer, Young, Lin, Ellington are all capable offensive players, and veterans to boot (as opposed to teams having to play a lot of 1st and 2nd year players). Most have performed worse than than expected there, primarily due to lack of good shots inside.

Voices
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Posts: 8287
Location: Oxnard, Ca.

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:10 pm Post subject:

madddogg wrote:

Voices wrote:

Amazing post, coaches coach in practice and games.

As good as Curry and Klay are they do not even come close to the scoring of the Gail Jerry backcourt 1972, 52 points per game without the three point shot. So is Kerr really a great coach or is he hindering Klay and Curry?
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ALTHOUGH HE STANDS 6 FEET 2 INCHES, JIM BUSS ATTENDED JOCKEY SCHOOL WHEN HE WAS 20.

fiendishoc
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Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:24 pm Post subject:

Gasol under Phil- one of the best big men in the league Gasol under Brown- trade him before he declines further Gasol under D'Antoni- washed up bum Gasol under Thibs- one of the best big men in the league

Voices
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Posts: 8287
Location: Oxnard, Ca.

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:25 pm Post subject:

maomao wrote:

Voices wrote:

villavs wrote:

Voices wrote:

freethrow wrote:

You know you're scraping the bottom if the only way you can defend a coach is to say that coaching doesn't matter.

I do believe that is a question for yourself. I'm not talking about bad coaches, most NBA coaches are excellent coaches, when they have talent they win, it's that simple.

Who said coaching is not important, some are even smart enough to get out of the way of great players, some coaches realize that great talent needs to left alone at times. Can you picture Pat Riley holding up a sign for a particular play to be run when Magic is in the middle of pushing the ball on the fast break.

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ALTHOUGH HE STANDS 6 FEET 2 INCHES, JIM BUSS ATTENDED JOCKEY SCHOOL WHEN HE WAS 20.

Voices
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Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:36 pm Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:

Gasol under Phil- one of the best big men in the league
Gasol under Brown- trade him before he declines further
Gasol under D'Antoni- washed up bum
Gasol under Thibs- one of the best big men in the league

Please no Gasol talk.
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ALTHOUGH HE STANDS 6 FEET 2 INCHES, JIM BUSS ATTENDED JOCKEY SCHOOL WHEN HE WAS 20.

City_Dawg
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Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:42 pm Post subject:

Voices wrote:

Please no Gasol talk.

Odd coming from someone who can't seem to shut up about him.*shrugs*
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!...

Voices
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Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:52 pm Post subject:

VegasLakerFan wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

Look at Brad Stevens. That's the type of coach you want. When they get a real team he will have the infrastructure in place; Lakers will have to get a new coach.

You realize the Lakers and Boston are tied in offensive efficiency this year? Brad Stevens has a "great system" and Byron is just "winging it," and yet the numbers are strikingly similar.

Brad does not think he is doing a very good job.

http://nesn.com/2015/01/brad-stevens-im-not-doing-a-very-good-job-of-coaching-celtics/

Voices
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Location: Oxnard, Ca.

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:58 pm Post subject:

City_Dawg wrote:

Voices wrote:

Please no Gasol talk.

Odd coming from someone who can't seem to shut up about him.*shrugs*

_________________
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ALTHOUGH HE STANDS 6 FEET 2 INCHES, JIM BUSS ATTENDED JOCKEY SCHOOL WHEN HE WAS 20.

fiendishoc
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Posts: 8488
Location: The (real) short corner

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:05 pm Post subject:

Voices wrote:

VegasLakerFan wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

Look at Brad Stevens. That's the type of coach you want. When they get a real team he will have the infrastructure in place; Lakers will have to get a new coach.

You realize the Lakers and Boston are tied in offensive efficiency this year? Brad Stevens has a "great system" and Byron is just "winging it," and yet the numbers are strikingly similar.

Brad does not think he is doing a very good job.

http://nesn.com/2015/01/brad-stevens-im-not-doing-a-very-good-job-of-coaching-celtics/

That sort of behavior wouldn't be tolerated in LA. Here, we expect our coaches to snipe at their players through the media rather than to take responsibility for anything.

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