Are Kobe's motives for winning selfish?
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Are Kobe's reasons for winning selfish?
YES
20%
 20%  [ 11 ]
NO
66%
 66%  [ 35 ]
MAYBE
13%
 13%  [ 7 ]
Total Votes : 53

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greenfrog
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:38 pm    Post subject:

PhoenixForce wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
This "alpha dog" requirement is so stupid. Was Tim Duncan ever alpha?


Are you kidding me? Did you start watching basketball in 2007? Tim Duncan was so much the Alpha that in Duncan's rookie year former MVP David (bleep) Robinson had to take the backseat to him. The first 3 titles the Spurs won were all Duncan being as alpha as it can get.


He was the best player. They get the most shots. That's not "alpha", that's being good.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:41 pm    Post subject:

22 wrote:
jodeke wrote:
22 wrote:
*sigh*

When will people get it? lol

If after all these years people still have this question about Kobe, you don't need to look any further than the infamous 2012-2013 season.

Watch how Kobe completely changed his game to suit his teammates and give them the best chance to win.

Bottom line is Kobe does whatever he thinks gives his team the best chance to win The only disagreement comes when internet posters and ESPN writers disagree with his strategy.

I'd say his 5 rings are proof he has a pretty good idea of what he's doing

Great points 22. I'm not discounting his success, I'm asking what the article points to.


Sorry Jodeke, I'm just tired of reading about Abbot's crackpot article this morning

No need to be sorry. I expcted to get roasted for posting. I think Kobe's one of the all time greats.

Shaq didn't want to stay in shape, Dwight wanted to be a kid. Kobe's all business. They didn't mesh, exception, 3 rings with Shaq.

I don't know who the "source close to Lakers decision makers" is or if there is one.

I do wonder if his motives are selfish and he wants to win if he's the reason they're winning? Which is the reason I posted as I did.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:51 pm    Post subject:

Kobe just cares about winning above anything to the best of his ability sometimes it rubs people the wrong way how he does it.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:52 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
The guy who muted his game in favor of Shaq because he knew that is what it took to win? I am voting no.


he deferred to Shaq because he was still young and those teams were full of veterans. as soon as he gets his own team, it has become a different story.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:05 pm    Post subject:

Rivershow wrote:
Isn't there a Kobe complaining thread for this?


That is about every thread around here these days. The stupidity and fan arrogance is astounding. If it isn't a bash on Kobe, its a bash on Mitch or the Buss family. Soon it will be Byron when the result isn't what we want. The question for the Lakers now is: how long will it take to reload? The only person that Lakers fans should be mad at is David Stern. The CP3 trade would have greatly reduced the rebuild time. The truth is that the Lakers are lucky that Howard didn't resign and Carmello didn't sign; neither are a player to build around. Now the only path is to build a nucleus of support players and try to lure a superstar in the next few years. In 16-17, you might get another shot to get talent. The only other hope is to get lucky in the lotto because if Kobe takes every shot or no shots, this team is not a playoff team. That doesn't mean we can't cheer for them or enjoy the ride to prominence. It was like watching the Lakers in the late 90's - sometime frustrating and sometimes fun but well worth it when it all came together.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:07 pm    Post subject:

I don't know and further I don't think it matters. The reason all of these articles and hullabaloo exist is because we ARE NOT a winning team right now. We wouldn't even be having this conversation if we were winning.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:09 pm    Post subject:

I think that's a hard question to fairly answer. Kobe obviously is obsessed with winning, but he is also obsessed with being the alpha.

There are certainly times when he's hurt his team with tunnelvision. And there are also times when after being criticized for those things he went into a shell and seemed disinterested. Both of those point to a Yes in the column.

But at the same time, part of the reason he is so selfish is his confidence in himself and his belief that he is always the best option. If he truly believes that (and I believe he does), then he's doing it because of his desire to win. It should also be noted that during the title seasons with Shaq, while Kobe fought for that spotlight for most of the season, when it came down to the big games in the finals, he often fell in line with whatever the team asked of him, which was feeding the ball to Shaq. After a disastrous first three quarters in game 7 against the Celtics, he took his foot off the pedal and allowed his teammates to shine in the fourth, and still continued to give a strong effort, getting to the line and grabbing rebounds. Those things point to No.

And I think the proper answer is someplace in between. I think that Kobe wants to win. If at all possible, he wants to win on his own terms. He is conscious about his legacy. But I think when it comes down to it in the end, he will sacrifice his game to win if he thinks that is how it has to be.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:09 pm    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Yes, muted his game in the playoffs when it mattered. We knew he could average 30+, but he knew that dominating from the inside was an easy route to titles.


In the playoffs, for the most part (2004 Finals would be the glaring exception when he just didn't give a (bleep) anymore), that I will agree.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:11 pm    Post subject:

TDRock wrote:
I don't know and further I don't think it matters. The reason all of these articles and hullabaloo exist is because we ARE NOT a winning team right now. We wouldn't even be having this conversation if we were winning.


We would be if the question I asked were being discussed. Are Kobe's motives for winning selfish?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:15 pm    Post subject:

J.C. Smith wrote:
I think that's a hard question to fairly answer. Kobe obviously is obsessed with winning, but he is also obsessed with being the alpha.

There are certainly times when he's hurt his team with tunnelvision. And there are also times when after being criticized for those things he went into a shell and seemed disinterested. Both of those point to a Yes in the column.

But at the same time, part of the reason he is so selfish is his confidence in himself and his belief that he is always the best option. If he truly believes that (and I believe he does), then he's doing it because of his desire to win. It should also be noted that during the title seasons with Shaq, while Kobe fought for that spotlight for most of the season, when it came down to the big games in the finals, he often fell in line with whatever the team asked of him, which was feeding the ball to Shaq. After a disastrous first three quarters in game 7 against the Celtics, he took his foot off the pedal and allowed his teammates to shine in the fourth, and still continued to give a strong effort, getting to the line and grabbing rebounds. Those things point to No.

And I think the proper answer is someplace in between. I think that Kobe wants to win. If at all possible, he wants to win on his own terms. He is conscious about his legacy. But I think when it comes down to it in the end, he will sacrifice his game to win if he thinks that is how it has to be.

Finally, Thank you J.C. for answering the question.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:26 pm    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
PhoenixForce wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
This "alpha dog" requirement is so stupid. Was Tim Duncan ever alpha?


Are you kidding me? Did you start watching basketball in 2007? Tim Duncan was so much the Alpha that in Duncan's rookie year former MVP David (bleep) Robinson had to take the backseat to him. The first 3 titles the Spurs won were all Duncan being as alpha as it can get.


He was the best player. They get the most shots. That's not "alpha", that's being good.


Wrong. He was not only the best player he was the leader as well. You don't have to be a boisterous, loud, vocally commanding guy to be alpha. Duncan led by example and was the alpha dog on the Spurs until around 2007-08.

Being alpha means you are the highest of rank on your team and that's what Duncan was and arguably still is. Every superstar that won championships was a "selfish" Alpha on their teams.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:26 pm    Post subject:

focus wrote:
This stuff is out of hand. Exactly who was this guy or guys who was better than Kobe such that he should play second fiddle to him? Dwight? Nash?

There's only a handful of guys who even qualify for consideration over these last few years. Lebron, KD, DWade, Melo, DRose healthy version, Paul George, Dirk, Parker, CP3, Blake Griffin, Alridge maybe Lilliard, Westbrook, Anthony Davis, Steph Curry, Rondo, Nash healthy version, Deron Williams in theory though not in practice. KLove hasn't proven anything in playoffs and has never played in an important game so leave him out. AD is in there because of the clear gifts but they are just coming to view now, less in years past. Demarcus Cousins may get there but not so far.

So let's take Lamarcus Alridge, as a guy who I think is not a Alpha Dog type, but skill, professionalism, talent all there. Do people think Kobe would not welcome offloading #1 scorer to him? I think he'd appreciate Alridge. Just like he'd have been happy with CP3 running the show or a yesteryear healthy Nash.

The other guys are set on their teams and we didn't get them for other reasons that have nothing to do with Kobe (mostly contracts and success where they are).

I dont know Kobe neither, but you cant just say we dont have another superstar here, therefore Kobe's selfishness scared him off.


Oh wait my bad, Ramon Sessions. Clearly your point is proven OP.

Not what I'm saying. I said he would be the conductor, they would be first violin. I was under the impression the conductor was in charge of how the orchestra played.

Please show me where I made that point.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:29 pm    Post subject:

PhoenixForce wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
PhoenixForce wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
This "alpha dog" requirement is so stupid. Was Tim Duncan ever alpha?


Are you kidding me? Did you start watching basketball in 2007? Tim Duncan was so much the Alpha that in Duncan's rookie year former MVP David (bleep) Robinson had to take the backseat to him. The first 3 titles the Spurs won were all Duncan being as alpha as it can get.


He was the best player. They get the most shots. That's not "alpha", that's being good.


Wrong. He was not only the best player he was the leader as well. You don't have to be a boisterous, loud, vocally commanding guy to be alpha. Duncan led by example and was the alpha dog on the Spurs until around 2007-08.

Being alpha means you are the highest of rank on your team and that's what Duncan was and arguably still is. Every superstar that won championships was a "selfish" Alpha on their teams.


Don't you know? Being an alpha is only wrong when Kobe does it
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:34 pm    Post subject:

Only thing that Kobe has done wrong through his career when it comes to his game mentality and winning is be too transparent. He doesn't try and bs people about where he's coming from he told the Shaq's of the world I want my respect as an alltime great and if you wanna half ass around fitness wise and try and dominate me with mind games forget it. I will play the right way when it counts but I will also strive for my personal goals along the way because I work harder than anyone else.

He told the Gasol's of the world get your head out your behind and suck it up man up and fight back don't give in. He told the front office cut the crap and get me some help not Kwame Brown and Luke Walton help.

He's been too real he's not wanted to be the most likeable guy around bs the media like Lebron does despite both guys having similar aims. Lebron wants all the things Kobe does he just finesse the media and constructs this image as the most unselfish guy despite doing hella selfish things like KObe has done maybe even worse by basically calculating who he wants to play with and how he needs them to fall in line behind him he hand picks his situations no player in league history has done what he's done yet he takes less criticism because he knows how to work the media it matters to him Kobe realizes at the end of the day its about the rings nothing else really matters.

Whats happening with Kobe now by some in the media is they wanna take him down because they think he's done it was like after Colorado and how they tried to take him down then bury him because he appeared to be in an indefensible position.

When some in the media spins nonsense about Kobe running Howard out as if Howard had such great character and performance that he was above reproach I knew the bs was in effect. Howard has won nothing and never will everyone knows that but to take a shot at Kobe they made him seem like a damn victim.

Howard in Lakers land for the next 5-7 years would have created extreme Lakers fan frustration. People who know hoops knows this.

Kobe of course is a selfish winner funny thing is everyone on the damn team gets rings when he does win titles.

Give Kobe a young star commited to working as hard or more who has mental toughness and a willingness to let Kobe teach him what he doesn't know and Kobe would gladly fall back with great respect for that young player but an old wise legend isn't gonna give away the kingdom to a young fool who is lazy and clueless about how to win.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:35 pm    Post subject:

Yes. Of course it is. For him to be unselfish, would mean he'd have to win for someone else. That wouldnt make any sense.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:36 pm    Post subject:

SGV-Laker fan wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
The guy who muted his game in favor of Shaq because he knew that is what it took to win? I am voting no.


he deferred to Shaq because he was still young and those teams were full of veterans. as soon as he gets his own team, it has become a different story.


Yes, that was my point. He wasn't selfish and insisted on doing it himself.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:41 pm    Post subject:

The cocept of competition and wiining and losing is inherently selfish.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:46 pm    Post subject:

24 wrote:
The cocept of competition and wiining and losing is inherently selfish.

And there's nothing wrong with that. My wonder is “But only as long as he's the reason we’re winning" what keeps the motor running?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:55 pm    Post subject:

24 wrote:
The cocept of competition and wiining and losing is inherently selfish.


You beat me to it. I don't know of any seriously competitive individual whose dream it is to sit on the bench for a winning team. If you're a competitor, you want to win and you want to be at least a part of the reason your team is winning.

Obviously Kobe has verbalized that he wants to win AND he wants to be the alpha dog. Sure that's seflish, but it worked to the tune of 5 titles. Could he have won more with a different attitude? Maybe, and that's a question I've often wondered, but ultimately I'd rather have the 5 he helped win than the possibility of more/less.

Personally, Kobe's attitude and approach are off-putting to my view of team-first basketball (which is why Magic is the greatest Laker ever in my opinion). But the success speaks for itself in a league where winning 1 title is hard enough let alone 5.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 2:10 pm    Post subject:

Wags_16 wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Yes, muted his game in the playoffs when it mattered. We knew he could average 30+, but he knew that dominating from the inside was an easy route to titles.


In the playoffs, for the most part (2004 Finals would be the glaring exception when he just didn't give a (bleep) anymore), that I will agree.
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Wuz up Wags? Haven't seen you for awhile. Hope all is well.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 2:36 pm    Post subject:

I don't believe in the presupposition in the question.

I believe that Kobe doesn't think he has to be "the man" on the team to win. He'd be willing to win if he felt that there was someone on the team that was better and more dedicated to the craft than he is. Someone that can prove their superiority to him on the court. Someone that has a work ethic that would be a shining example to everyone else.

But that hasn't happened. And no way is he going to play second fiddle to someone that isn't going to work as hard. It's not about selfishness there. It's about the best opportunity to win.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 3:19 pm    Post subject:

PhoenixForce wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
PhoenixForce wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
This "alpha dog" requirement is so stupid. Was Tim Duncan ever alpha?


Are you kidding me? Did you start watching basketball in 2007? Tim Duncan was so much the Alpha that in Duncan's rookie year former MVP David (bleep) Robinson had to take the backseat to him. The first 3 titles the Spurs won were all Duncan being as alpha as it can get.


He was the best player. They get the most shots. That's not "alpha", that's being good.


Wrong. He was not only the best player he was the leader as well. You don't have to be a boisterous, loud, vocally commanding guy to be alpha. Duncan led by example and was the alpha dog on the Spurs until around 2007-08.

Being alpha means you are the highest of rank on your team and that's what Duncan was and arguably still is. Every superstar that won championships was a "selfish" Alpha on their teams.


I guess everyone has their own twist on what it means, but it's a description of a personality type, one that's domineering and aggressive. I don't see how Duncan in fits the bill in anyway. He's a complete pack follower now. A true "alpha dog" would rather be torn to pieces than surrender leadership, which he did without a fight.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 3:20 pm    Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:
I don't believe in the presupposition in the question.

I believe that Kobe doesn't think he has to be "the man" on the team to win. He'd be willing to win if he felt that there was someone on the team that was better and more dedicated to the craft than he is. Someone that can prove their superiority to him on the court. Someone that has a work ethic that would be a shining example to everyone else.

But that hasn't happened. And no way is he going to play second fiddle to someone that isn't going to work as hard. It's not about selfishness there. It's about the best opportunity to win.

I agree because of how it's worded “But only as long as he's the reason

I think his motor revs higher when he's the focus. If he were't the reason I don't think he'd play with the same intensity.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 3:22 pm    Post subject:

Anyone who wants proof of whether or not Kobe values being in the Alpha role more than he does winning just needs to watch the Olympics again. Knowing he was surrounded by great talent, he willingly took a back seat. Even when the Gold medal game was still in question, he stayed the course. It wasn't until the greatest players in the world ASKED him to bail them out did he switch to KING KOBE mode. Can't watch those games and draw any other conclusion than, the guy cares about winning above all else. And with the exception of when he's been surrounded by talent WILLING to do whatever necessary to win, he correctly understands that he's the best option.

Basically what's being asked here is: If a Ferrari was racing a Camaro and came upon a puddle, would it yield to the Camaro to not risk getting dirty because it only cares about winning IF it can remain clean and pretty while doing so, and if it couldn't stay clean and pretty while winning, it would risk losing to stay pretty.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 3:25 pm    Post subject:

Aussiesuede wrote:
Anyone who wants proof of whether or not Kobe values being in the Alpha role more than he does winning just needs to watch the Olympics again. Knowing he was surrounded by great talent, he willingly took a back seat. Even when the Gold medal game was still in question, he stayed the course. It wasn't until the greatest players in the world ASKED him to bail them out did he switch to KING KOBE mode. Can't watch those games and draw any other conclusion than, the guy cares about winning above all else. And with the exception of when he's been surrounded by talent WILLING to do whatever necessary to win, he correctly understands that he's the best option.

Basically what's being asked here is: If a Ferrari was racing a Camaro and came upon a puddle, would it yield to the Camaro to not risk getting dirty because it only cares about winning IF it can remain clean and pretty while doing so, and if it couldn't stay clean and pretty while winning, it would risk losing to stay pretty.
Great points Auss but they pale because there will never be a team in the NBA of the caliber of an Olympic team. Also the Olympic team wasn't HIS team.

A very improbable scenario.
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