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KobeBryantCliffordBrown Star Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2008 Posts: 6429
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Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 3:51 pm Post subject: I'm not religious but this dude has been amazing during his tenure so far. |
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/27/pope-francis-evolution_n_6057378.html?cps=gravity
For those who share faith, what a beautiful reconciliation with the rational World. _________________ “It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays |
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Splash1 Starting Rotation
Joined: 18 Aug 2011 Posts: 482
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Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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It's not anything new. A Catholic priest by the name of Georges Lemaitre introduced what is now widely known and accepted as the big bang theory, 2 years before Hubble.
Science and religion doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. Although, some people on both sides try very hard to make it so, mostly by anti-theists and religious nutbags. |
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KobeBryantCliffordBrown Star Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2008 Posts: 6429
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Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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Splash1 wrote: | It's not anything new. A Catholic priest by the name of Georges Lemaitre introduced what is now widely known and accepted as the big bang theory, 2 years before Hubble.
Science and religion doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. Although, some people on both sides try very hard to make it so, mostly by anti-theists and religious nutbags. |
I understand that. But at this moment in history, his words and actions have been very humanistic and this just another example. And his words on God, not being a magician or a divine being etc, seem pretty interesting. I don't follow religion much, but those seem pretty unusual sentiments. Also, there are multiple Southern states where the denial of evolution is strong and school children are taught "Creation Science" alongside Evolution as some sort of viable alternative. _________________ “It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays |
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Reflexx Franchise Player
Joined: 25 Jun 2005 Posts: 11163
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Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting. I'm not Catholic, but I've been impressed by this pope. |
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Splash1 Starting Rotation
Joined: 18 Aug 2011 Posts: 482
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Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | Splash1 wrote: | It's not anything new. A Catholic priest by the name of Georges Lemaitre introduced what is now widely known and accepted as the big bang theory, 2 years before Hubble.
Science and religion doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. Although, some people on both sides try very hard to make it so, mostly by anti-theists and religious nutbags. |
I understand that. But at this moment in history, his words and actions have been very humanistic and this just another example. And his words on God, not being a magician or a divine being etc, seem pretty interesting. I don't follow religion much, but those seem pretty unusual sentiments. Also, there are multiple Southern states where the denial of evolution is strong and school children are taught "Creation Science" alongside Evolution as some sort of viable alternative. |
Those would be your religious nutbags. They are protestant denominations which some of them are quick to call Catholics heathens. It's funny because they follow the gospel teachings from a book put together by those very heathens. |
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ContagiousInspiration Franchise Player
Joined: 07 May 2014 Posts: 13811 Location: Boulder ;)
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Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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I have been touched by his ability to show humility and drop the zealotry and hierarchical (bleep).. To be connected to each other instead of being a ruler or judge of each other.
Hopefully he finds some way to cleanse the Vatican of those who think their positions in that hierarchy mean power over others.
He can make big changes with his humility |
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Wilt LG Contributor
Joined: 29 Dec 2002 Posts: 13711
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Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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“He created human beings and let them develop according to the internal laws that he gave to each one so they would reach their fulfillment.”
Francis said the beginning of the world was not “a work of chaos” but created from a principle of love. He said sometimes competing beliefs in creation and evolution could co-exist.
“God is not a divine being or a magician, but the Creator who brought everything to life,” the pope said. “Evolution in nature is not inconsistent with the notion of creation, because evolution requires the creation of beings that evolve.”
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So the Pope doesn't know how evolution works. And this sounds similar to what many ID proponents say, which is that macroevolution isn't possible, but microevolution is.
Still, it's a good step. _________________ ¡Hala Madrid!
Last edited by Wilt on Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Theseus Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Dec 2007 Posts: 13855
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Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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This new pope is a good guy, he might get to heaven. |
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marga86 Star Player
Joined: 30 Jun 2008 Posts: 3442
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Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:32 am Post subject: |
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I understand that not everyone is religious.. but man some anti-religious people drive me crazy.
Religious people dont do themselves any favors either by trying to impose their beliefs on others. |
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magickobe24 Starting Rotation
Joined: 24 Jul 2014 Posts: 217
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Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 8:25 am Post subject: |
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marga86 wrote: | I understand that not everyone is religious.. but man some anti-religious people drive me crazy.
Religious people dont do themselves any favors either by trying to impose their beliefs on others. | every group attempts to impose their views/beliefs on others. there are very few groups or ideas that are not pushed onto others as if its gospel. thats life. |
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lakersken80 Retired Number
Joined: 12 Aug 2009 Posts: 38750
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Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 8:42 am Post subject: |
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marga86 wrote: | I understand that not everyone is religious.. but man some anti-religious people drive me crazy.
Religious people dont do themselves any favors either by trying to impose their beliefs on others. |
Proselytizing is how religions stay relevant....You have to convert or bring in new followers to a religion or else it dies. |
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Fan0Bynum17 Franchise Player
Joined: 30 Nov 2005 Posts: 15436
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Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:02 am Post subject: |
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The Catholic church hasn't necessarily been that opposed to these ideas compared to many protestant churches. Still, coming out in alignment now with theories that have been the backbones of astronomy and biology (two major scientific fields) for a long time doesn't deserve applause. The desire to applaud it from people, shows just how regressive of a standard religion has set.
With all that said, this pope being "progressive" is just the Catholic Church inc. trying to adapt to survive to the current society, that's all. Churches and religions, at their core, are just businesses, a meal ticket for the proprietors of it, and they all eventually adapt to larger society, or they die off. |
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Reflexx Franchise Player
Joined: 25 Jun 2005 Posts: 11163
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Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:48 am Post subject: |
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Fan0Bynum17 wrote: | The Catholic church hasn't necessarily been that opposed to these ideas compared to many protestant churches. Still, coming out in alignment now with theories that have been the backbones of astronomy and biology (two major scientific fields) for a long time doesn't deserve applause. The desire to applaud it from people, shows just how regressive of a standard religion has set.
With all that said, this pope being "progressive" is just the Catholic Church inc. trying to adapt to survive to the current society, that's all. Churches and religions, at their core, are just businesses, a meal ticket for the proprietors of it, and they all eventually adapt to larger society, or they die off. |
I think you may be saying this without really knowing much about the current Pope. |
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DaMuleRules Retired Number
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52624 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
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Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:50 am Post subject: |
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Splash1 wrote: | It's not anything new. A Catholic priest by the name of Georges Lemaitre introduced what is now widely known and accepted as the big bang theory, 2 years before Hubble.
Science and religion doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. Although, some people on both sides try very hard to make it so, mostly by anti-theists and religious nutbags. |
It's not simply in this one area that Pope Francis has stood out from his predecessors in his progressiveness. |
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DaMuleRules Retired Number
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52624 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
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Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:52 am Post subject: |
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Reflexx wrote: | Fan0Bynum17 wrote: | The Catholic church hasn't necessarily been that opposed to these ideas compared to many protestant churches. Still, coming out in alignment now with theories that have been the backbones of astronomy and biology (two major scientific fields) for a long time doesn't deserve applause. The desire to applaud it from people, shows just how regressive of a standard religion has set.
With all that said, this pope being "progressive" is just the Catholic Church inc. trying to adapt to survive to the current society, that's all. Churches and religions, at their core, are just businesses, a meal ticket for the proprietors of it, and they all eventually adapt to larger society, or they die off. |
I think you may be saying this without really knowing much about the current Pope. |
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audioaxes Franchise Player
Joined: 26 Apr 2004 Posts: 12573
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Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:52 am Post subject: |
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i think the opposite, religion, or alteast Christianity is supposed to be about faith and not about aligning to what science can "prove" |
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NickF Star Player
Joined: 05 Jun 2006 Posts: 1946 Location: Caerbannog
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Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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audioaxes wrote: | i think the opposite, religion, or alteast Christianity is supposed to be about faith and not about aligning to what science can "prove" |
If you're trying to build a bridge that doesn't collapse, or cure an illness, then i'd go with the system designed to yields truths about the world we inhabit. |
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NickF Star Player
Joined: 05 Jun 2006 Posts: 1946 Location: Caerbannog
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Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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Splash1 wrote: | It's not anything new. A Catholic priest by the name of Georges Lemaitre introduced what is now widely known and accepted as the big bang theory, 2 years before Hubble.
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And Gregor Mendel (founder of genetics) was an Augustinian Friar. |
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Omar Little Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90299 Location: Formerly Known As 24
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Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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DaMuleRules wrote: | Splash1 wrote: | It's not anything new. A Catholic priest by the name of Georges Lemaitre introduced what is now widely known and accepted as the big bang theory, 2 years before Hubble.
Science and religion doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. Although, some people on both sides try very hard to make it so, mostly by anti-theists and religious nutbags. |
It's not simply in this one area that Pope Francis has stood out from his predecessors in his progressiveness. |
Well, that is what it looks like. Which was the whole idea. Finally break with the sex scandals by retiring the pope who previously had been the head coverup guy, and while you're at it, court the only expansion base in the religion (Latinos) with one of their own (he's Italian, but from Argentina) and the shrinking base (Europeans and Americans) with progressive and friendly sounding pronouncements about evolution, gays, women, the poor, and atheists.
Unfortunately, it is an ad campaign. Slick, and shows someone finally gets PR in the Vatican, but an ad campaign nonetheless. Not a single policy shift. Just platitude. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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DaMuleRules Retired Number
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52624 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
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Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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24 wrote: | DaMuleRules wrote: | Splash1 wrote: | It's not anything new. A Catholic priest by the name of Georges Lemaitre introduced what is now widely known and accepted as the big bang theory, 2 years before Hubble.
Science and religion doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. Although, some people on both sides try very hard to make it so, mostly by anti-theists and religious nutbags. |
It's not simply in this one area that Pope Francis has stood out from his predecessors in his progressiveness. |
Well, that is what it looks like. Which was the whole idea. Finally break with the sex scandals by retiring the pope who previously had been the head coverup guy, and while you're at it, court the only expansion base in the religion (Latinos) with one of their own (he's Italian, but from Argentina) and the shrinking base (Europeans and Americans) with progressive and friendly sounding pronouncements about evolution, gays, women, the poor, and atheists.
Unfortunately, it is an ad campaign. Slick, and shows someone finally gets PR in the Vatican, but an ad campaign nonetheless. Not a single policy shift. Just platitude. |
Whatever the motivation or level of sincerity, an open and supportive stance for things like Gay Rights from the Vatican is progress. Whether they truly mean it or not, it stills sends a message to the public that can be used top bolster support elsewhere. |
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Wilt LG Contributor
Joined: 29 Dec 2002 Posts: 13711
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Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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DaMuleRules wrote: | 24 wrote: | DaMuleRules wrote: | Splash1 wrote: | It's not anything new. A Catholic priest by the name of Georges Lemaitre introduced what is now widely known and accepted as the big bang theory, 2 years before Hubble.
Science and religion doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. Although, some people on both sides try very hard to make it so, mostly by anti-theists and religious nutbags. |
It's not simply in this one area that Pope Francis has stood out from his predecessors in his progressiveness. |
Well, that is what it looks like. Which was the whole idea. Finally break with the sex scandals by retiring the pope who previously had been the head coverup guy, and while you're at it, court the only expansion base in the religion (Latinos) with one of their own (he's Italian, but from Argentina) and the shrinking base (Europeans and Americans) with progressive and friendly sounding pronouncements about evolution, gays, women, the poor, and atheists.
Unfortunately, it is an ad campaign. Slick, and shows someone finally gets PR in the Vatican, but an ad campaign nonetheless. Not a single policy shift. Just platitude. |
Whatever the motivation or level of sincerity, an open and supportive stance for things like Gay Rights from the Vatican is progress. Whether they truly mean it or not, it stills sends a message to the public that can be used top bolster support elsewhere. |
Sincerity and motivation matter a lot, I think. It also devalues their overall message if all they care about is positive press for a few days and if they can adjust their policies (as they have done for centuries) to keep up with progress in society as a whole.
As I said above, this really isn't an embrace of evolution. It's a lack of understanding (intentional or not) of how evolution works and it's an inappropriate use of the word evolution to describe something less rigid than traditional Creationism. But it's still Creationism. Species aren't created in order to evolve later, as the Pope argues. That's not how it works. But he used the word evolution and now everybody gives him credit for it. As I also said, it's a good step, and maybe they will embrace what evolution really is in the next couple centuries, but I doubt it because the foundation of their religion would be meaningless at that point, since it would take God completely out of the picture. _________________ ¡Hala Madrid! |
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thejet24 Star Player
Joined: 06 Nov 2007 Posts: 3020
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Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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"When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. That is my religion" - Abraham Lincoln _________________ 2008-2010 Finals. 28.9 PTS 6.1 REB 5.4 AST 2.1 STLs |
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DaMuleRules Retired Number
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52624 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
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Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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Wilt wrote: | DaMuleRules wrote: | 24 wrote: | DaMuleRules wrote: | Splash1 wrote: | It's not anything new. A Catholic priest by the name of Georges Lemaitre introduced what is now widely known and accepted as the big bang theory, 2 years before Hubble.
Science and religion doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. Although, some people on both sides try very hard to make it so, mostly by anti-theists and religious nutbags. |
It's not simply in this one area that Pope Francis has stood out from his predecessors in his progressiveness. |
Well, that is what it looks like. Which was the whole idea. Finally break with the sex scandals by retiring the pope who previously had been the head coverup guy, and while you're at it, court the only expansion base in the religion (Latinos) with one of their own (he's Italian, but from Argentina) and the shrinking base (Europeans and Americans) with progressive and friendly sounding pronouncements about evolution, gays, women, the poor, and atheists.
Unfortunately, it is an ad campaign. Slick, and shows someone finally gets PR in the Vatican, but an ad campaign nonetheless. Not a single policy shift. Just platitude. |
Whatever the motivation or level of sincerity, an open and supportive stance for things like Gay Rights from the Vatican is progress. Whether they truly mean it or not, it stills sends a message to the public that can be used top bolster support elsewhere. |
Sincerity and motivation matter a lot, I think. It also devalues their overall message if all they care about is positive press for a few days and if they can adjust their policies (as they have done for centuries) to keep up with progress in society as a whole.
As I said above, this really isn't an embrace of evolution. It's a lack of understanding (intentional or not) of how evolution works and it's an inappropriate use of the word evolution to describe something less rigid than traditional Creationism. But it's still Creationism. Species aren't created in order to evolve later, as the Pope argues. That's not how it works. But he used the word evolution and now everybody gives him credit for it. As I also said, it's a good step, and maybe they will embrace what evolution really is in the next couple centuries, but I doubt it because the foundation of their religion would be meaningless at that point, since it would take God completely out of the picture. |
Again, it's not about how "official" Francis's comments are. Whether the Vatican itself actually follows through on the stance or not, the message in regards to Gay Rights has been sent out and that can bolster the message in other arenas.
As far as I am concerned, that is a good thing because I am far more concerned about the issue of Gay Rights than I am about the sincerity of the Vatican. I'm surprised that some of you guys don't see that significance. |
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KobeBryantCliffordBrown Star Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2008 Posts: 6429
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Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:19 am Post subject: |
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DaMuleRules wrote: | Wilt wrote: | DaMuleRules wrote: | 24 wrote: | DaMuleRules wrote: | Splash1 wrote: | It's not anything new. A Catholic priest by the name of Georges Lemaitre introduced what is now widely known and accepted as the big bang theory, 2 years before Hubble.
Science and religion doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. Although, some people on both sides try very hard to make it so, mostly by anti-theists and religious nutbags. |
It's not simply in this one area that Pope Francis has stood out from his predecessors in his progressiveness. |
Well, that is what it looks like. Which was the whole idea. Finally break with the sex scandals by retiring the pope who previously had been the head coverup guy, and while you're at it, court the only expansion base in the religion (Latinos) with one of their own (he's Italian, but from Argentina) and the shrinking base (Europeans and Americans) with progressive and friendly sounding pronouncements about evolution, gays, women, the poor, and atheists.
Unfortunately, it is an ad campaign. Slick, and shows someone finally gets PR in the Vatican, but an ad campaign nonetheless. Not a single policy shift. Just platitude. |
Whatever the motivation or level of sincerity, an open and supportive stance for things like Gay Rights from the Vatican is progress. Whether they truly mean it or not, it stills sends a message to the public that can be used top bolster support elsewhere. |
Sincerity and motivation matter a lot, I think. It also devalues their overall message if all they care about is positive press for a few days and if they can adjust their policies (as they have done for centuries) to keep up with progress in society as a whole.
As I said above, this really isn't an embrace of evolution. It's a lack of understanding (intentional or not) of how evolution works and it's an inappropriate use of the word evolution to describe something less rigid than traditional Creationism. But it's still Creationism. Species aren't created in order to evolve later, as the Pope argues. That's not how it works. But he used the word evolution and now everybody gives him credit for it. As I also said, it's a good step, and maybe they will embrace what evolution really is in the next couple centuries, but I doubt it because the foundation of their religion would be meaningless at that point, since it would take God completely out of the picture. |
Again, it's not about how "official" Francis's comments are. Whether the Vatican itself actually follows through on the stance or not, the message in regards to Gay Rights has been sent out and that can bolster the message in other arenas.
As far as I am concerned, that is a good thing because I am far more concerned about the issue of Gay Rights than I am about the sincerity of the Vatican. I'm surprised that some of you guys don't see that significance. |
_________________ “It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays |
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LarryCoon Site Staff
Joined: 11 Aug 2002 Posts: 11264
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Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:34 am Post subject: |
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Wilt wrote: | But he used the word evolution and now everybody gives him credit for it. |
Not everyone.
"Basically, the Pope’s statement is an incoherent pudding of inconsistencies in which he tries to claim compatibility by ignoring every conclusion of the science." -- PZ Myers
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