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| Fire Mitch Kupchak? |
| Yes. |
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25% |
[ 27 ] |
| No. |
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55% |
[ 60 ] |
| It won't matter either way. |
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19% |
[ 21 ] |
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| Total Votes : 108 |
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Don Draper
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Joined: 21 Feb 2008
Posts: 28431
Location: LA --> Bay Area
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 Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:36 pm Post subject: Would you fire Mitch Kupchak? |
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Like some have said, Mitch swings for the fences but seems to have a lack of talent when it comes to putting together the kind of team that's winning in today's NBA, ie, real teams with parts that fit together.
With the Lakers heading into what will likely be a several year long rebuild, do you trust Mitch at the wheel? Or does it not even matter since Jimbo and his Buss minions have the final say? |
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ringfinger
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Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
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| Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| No. He pieced together a back to back championship team 5 years ago. We just need to start over. |
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chrisca91
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Joined: 06 Jan 2013
Posts: 3446
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| Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | No. He pieced together a back to back championship team 5 years ago. We just need to start over. |
He didn't do (bleep). Just a puppet. |
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ringfinger
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Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
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| Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| chrisca91 wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | No. He pieced together a back to back championship team 5 years ago. We just need to start over. |
He didn't do (bleep). Just a puppet. |
I understand your frustration. |
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Jeggs
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Joined: 14 Oct 2013
Posts: 1659
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| Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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Mitch is not totally at fault for the state of the Lakers, but he made two careless mistakes. He put all his eggs in one basket by going after Lebron and Melo. He ignored other valuable free agents like Parsons, Stephenson, and Isiah Thomas.
And to make things worse...he decides to make a bigger mistake by signing hill for a 10 million dollar contract...and Nick Young for a large long term contract. Both big mistakes that would get any President for any company fired. |
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lilmomo
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Joined: 05 Feb 2004
Posts: 1012
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| Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| N bring in who? |
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ringfinger
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Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
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| Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeggs wrote: | Mitch is not totally at fault for the state of the Lakers, but he made two careless mistakes. He put all his eggs in one basket by going after Lebron and Melo. He ignored other valuable free agents like Parsons, Stephenson, and Isiah Thomas.
And to make things worse...he decides to make a bigger mistake by signing hill for a 10 million dollar contract...and Nick Young for a large long term contract. Both big mistakes that would get any President for any company fired. |
What kind of deal would you have given Parsons? Just curious. |
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Dave20
Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Jun 2013
Posts: 11333
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| Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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| When Byron is fired in two years, Mitch will be gone too. He doesn't value draft picks, Jeanie will bring in someone who does and that can build through drafts. |
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J.C. Smith
Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 12670
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| Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Firing Kupchak would be the dumbest move the Lakers could possibly make. Much rather just watch all the bandwagon fans leave. |
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Don Draper
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Joined: 21 Feb 2008
Posts: 28431
Location: LA --> Bay Area
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| Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| lilmomo wrote: | | N bring in who? |
Unknown, let's say the polar opposite of Mitch, someone who rebuilds through the draft and piecemeal trades rather than through blockbusters. |
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Don Draper
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Joined: 21 Feb 2008
Posts: 28431
Location: LA --> Bay Area
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| Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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| J.C. Smith wrote: | | Firing Kupchak would be the dumbest move the Lakers could possibly make. Much rather just watch all the bandwagon fans leave. |
I think Mitch could be performing a LOT better, but I know it must be tough working for the feuding Buss kids. |
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ringfinger
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Joined: 08 Oct 2013
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| Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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| lilmomo wrote: | | N bring in who? |
Personally I'd like to see L'Boombox Clarkson-Paige run the show. |
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Plaza234
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Joined: 13 Jul 2014
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| Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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Aside of the gift of Kwame Brown for Pau Gasol, he's been a disaster at GM. He inherited 2 top 5 NBA players and has dragged down the team to that of a high lottery team - all the while spending at the top of the cap.
He needs to be gone. Lakers need a new vision. That, or bring back Jerry West. |
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Oliver Reed
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Joined: 28 Sep 2014
Posts: 2626
Location: Globo Gym
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| Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Plaza234 wrote: | Aside of the gift of Kwame Brown for Pau Gasol, he's been a disaster at GM. He inherited 2 top 5 NBA players and has dragged down the team to that of a high lottery team - all the while spending at the top of the cap.
He needs to be gone. Lakers need a new vision. That, or bring back Jerry West. |
haha. Hilarious. What about Ariza for brian cook? What about malone and payton for 3 bucks and some ketchup packets? How bout Artest? Pau Gasol, Chris Paul and a crap load of money to spare before stern screwed us up the butt? How bout Howard for the one legged man? Do you want me to write more? |
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Oliver Reed
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Joined: 28 Sep 2014
Posts: 2626
Location: Globo Gym
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| Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave20 wrote: | | When Byron is fired in two years, Mitch will be gone too. He doesn't value draft picks, Jeanie will bring in someone who does and that can build through drafts. |
Build what through the draft? Who? When?18th picks? 20t picks? If you do not have a top 5 pick on the team, you arent winning titles in the NBA. |
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Inverse
Star Player
Joined: 27 Jun 2014
Posts: 2066
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| Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Mitch has definitely made mistakes, but that could be said about a lot of GM's. At the end of the day, he's done better than he's done worse. If he botches 2016 though... |
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jonnybravo
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Joined: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 30679
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| Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | Jeggs wrote: | Mitch is not totally at fault for the state of the Lakers, but he made two careless mistakes. He put all his eggs in one basket by going after Lebron and Melo. He ignored other valuable free agents like Parsons, Stephenson, and Isiah Thomas.
And to make things worse...he decides to make a bigger mistake by signing hill for a 10 million dollar contract...and Nick Young for a large long term contract. Both big mistakes that would get any President for any company fired. |
What kind of deal would you have given Parsons? Just curious. |
Parsons is overpaid but a slight adjustment in team building philosophy is in order imo.
http://forums.lakersground.net/viewtopic.php?t=170628
There's a good discussion on this in this thread. |
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Plaza234
Star Player
Joined: 13 Jul 2014
Posts: 1626
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| Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Oliver Reed wrote: | | Plaza234 wrote: | Aside of the gift of Kwame Brown for Pau Gasol, he's been a disaster at GM. He inherited 2 top 5 NBA players and has dragged down the team to that of a high lottery team - all the while spending at the top of the cap.
He needs to be gone. Lakers need a new vision. That, or bring back Jerry West. |
haha. Hilarious. What about Ariza for brian cook? What about malone and payton for 3 bucks and some ketchup packets? How bout Artest? Pau Gasol, Chris Paul and a crap load of money to spare before stern screwed us up the butt? How bout Howard for the one legged man? Do you want me to write more? |
The Lakers are staring at their longest run of futility since the 1970s and you want to talk about what a good job he did? Say what?
The only reason Malone/Payton even signed with the Lakers was to try to get a ring on an established team - a team that was built by Jerry West.
What was the benefit to getting Dwight Howard for one season? Nothing.
Plenty of teams build thru the draft or built thru solid free agents and stay competitive. Look at Portland, Houston, Dallas, Clippers - all teams that have clearly surpassed the Lakers while Mitch has been in charge.
Tell teams like the Bulls, Pacers, Spurs who continue to find pieces that fit to keep them as at the very least perennial top teams in their divisions.
Mitch has turned a once proud Lakers franchise into an absolute dump. |
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Omar Little
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Location: Formerly Known As 24
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| Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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You only fire Mitch if you lack even a casual understanding of how the league works.
_________________
“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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Steve007
Franchise Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 13221
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:47 am Post subject: |
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| Plaza234 wrote: | | Oliver Reed wrote: | | Plaza234 wrote: | Aside of the gift of Kwame Brown for Pau Gasol, he's been a disaster at GM. He inherited 2 top 5 NBA players and has dragged down the team to that of a high lottery team - all the while spending at the top of the cap.
He needs to be gone. Lakers need a new vision. That, or bring back Jerry West. |
haha. Hilarious. What about Ariza for brian cook? What about malone and payton for 3 bucks and some ketchup packets? How bout Artest? Pau Gasol, Chris Paul and a crap load of money to spare before stern screwed us up the butt? How bout Howard for the one legged man? Do you want me to write more? |
The Lakers are staring at their longest run of futility since the 1970s and you want to talk about what a good job he did? Say what?
The only reason Malone/Payton even signed with the Lakers was to try to get a ring on an established team - a team that was built by Jerry West.
What was the benefit to getting Dwight Howard for one season? Nothing.
Plenty of teams build thru the draft or built thru solid free agents and stay competitive. Look at Portland, Houston, Dallas, Clippers - all teams that have clearly surpassed the Lakers while Mitch has been in charge.
Tell teams like the Bulls, Pacers, Spurs who continue to find pieces that fit to keep them as at the very least perennial top teams in their divisions.
Mitch has turned a once proud Lakers franchise into an absolute dump. |
The reason Malone and Payton signed with the Lakers was Jerry West did a lousy job of building around Shaq and Kobe. West had some horrible picks at the end and traded away stars such as Van Exel and Jones for trash like Tyron Lue and JR Reid. He also traded for an injured Glen Rice who was no longer a star and Rice left after 2000. I still remember when West ruined the 1999 season by trading away Eddie Jones. He also signed Rodman. What a successful move that was. Oh wait, he did sign JR Rider to replace Glen Rice!
| Quote: | | Look at Portland, Houston, Dallas, Clippers - all teams that have clearly surpassed the Lakers while Mitch has been in charge. |
How many championships have those teams won again? Mitch has won more as a gm than all of them combined. Lol at including the Clippers who were gifted Chris Paul because of David Stern and got Blake with the #1 pick because Sterling owned the team. That wasn't because of brilliant front office moves. They still can't even find a SF. The best they have at that position is Matt Barnes. Lol at that. And Portland has won 1 playoff series since 2000. If that's success to you then you're just holding Mitch to a different standard.
| Quote: |
What was the benefit to getting Dwight Howard for one season?
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Getting rid of Bynum instead of signing him and dealing with the injuries that ended his career.
| Quote: | | Tell teams like the Bulls, Pacers, Spurs who continue to find pieces that fit to keep them as at the very least perennial top teams in their divisions. |
What have the Bulls and Pacers won? Those teams perform at their level because they play in the Leastern Conference. And they can't even make it to the Finals out of that conference. Those are your examples of success? How many rings do they have again?
The Spurs still have Popovich and the same big 3 they had during the last 11 years. Let's see what they do without a GOAT PF and the same 2-3 HOF players on that roster year after year.
Last edited by Steve007 on Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:07 am; edited 3 times in total |
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VegasLakerFan
Star Player
Joined: 25 Dec 2011
Posts: 1835
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:52 am Post subject: Re: Would you fire Mitch Kupchak? |
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| Don Draper wrote: | Like some have said, Mitch swings for the fences but seems to have a lack of talent when it comes to putting together the kind of team that's winning in today's NBA, ie, real teams with parts that fit together.
With the Lakers heading into what will likely be a several year long rebuild, do you trust Mitch at the wheel? Or does it not even matter since Jimbo and his Buss minions have the final say? |
The parts fit together pretty well from '08-10, didn't they? Firing Mitch would be a knee-jerk reaction that absolutely reeks of desperation and a genuine lack of foresight. |
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Steve007
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Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 13221
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:03 am Post subject: |
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| Dave20 wrote: | | When Byron is fired in two years, Mitch will be gone too. He doesn't value draft picks, Jeanie will bring in someone who does and that can build through drafts. |
Nonsense. Maybe he doesn't value low draft picks that much when he has a veteran team that is trying to win now. But when it's time to rebuild, it could easily be a different story. I didn't see Julius Randle get traded yet. |
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J.C. Smith
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 12670
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:11 am Post subject: Re: Would you fire Mitch Kupchak? |
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| Don Draper wrote: | | ie, real teams with parts that fit together. |
If Mitch really did have a Magic wand I'm sure he'd wave it and get those fitting pieces. But the truth is that the Lakers have very little in the way of trade assets the past two seasons. They pretty much went all in with the Dwight and Nash moves. They signed guys to short term deals to preserve cap space for the rebuilding after Kobe retires.
With the Nash and Howard moves (which almost everyone loved no matter how much they pretend they didn't now) backfiring the Lakers found themselves in a bad spot last summer. They kept hoping Nash could get his body straight and it never happened. They held on to Pau hoping that a worthwhile trade would materialize and it didn't. They then struck out in free agency. But those weren't bad moves. I can understand not simply trading away Pau for a second round pick. They should have traded him earlier but the moves they made were as a direct result of Kobe being on the team and then trying to get another title out of him. It didn't work. Everything that could go wrong, did go wrong starting with the Paul veto.
But that doesn't change the fact that just three years ago the Lakers traded for Chris Paul. Just two years ago they landed Dwight Howard and Steve Nash for a few draft picks, a deep bench guy and a guy who was due for a max extension whose career derailed immediately after the trade. The draft picks were the sweetener required for those deals to happen.
Things could have obviously went in a completely different direction. If the veto doesn't happen the Lakers would have likely had a pre-injury Dwight, to go along with a prime Chris Paul and Kobe and pretty much have a contender for the next 5-6 years, all the while shedding salary. They had a good plan which surprised everyone, and it got taken away from them. Then Nash has a career ending injury as the season starts, doesn't retire and sucks up cap space for the next three seasons. While that was certainly always a possibility the likelihood of it happening was low. Dwight and Kobe not getting along, well that was something that maybe people could have seen coming. Had the Lakers contended though and Kobe and Nash not gone down, I think he would have stayed. Kobe blowing his achilles, combined with Pau's decline, and Nash's injury depleted the Lakers team. Suddenly he has the prospect of playing with a player who he did not enjoy playing with, and who was simply not that good talent wise, or bolting. His leaving set the Lakers back significantly.
That having been said, there was no incentive for other teams to do a sign and trade in the new CBA. If the Lakers were going to trade Dwight it had to be at the deadline and they felt like they were going to turn the season around and keep him. They did turn it around, but that came to a halt with Kobe's achilles blowing.
So here we are a year and 2 games later, in what is a rebuild. And people are panicking and asking the Lakers to fire Kupchak. Even if you want to give Jerry West credit for the Kobe/Shaq threepeat and discount Mitch's role in it all, the fact of the matter is he saw the Lakers rebuild from Shaq leaving to another title in four years after that. He then traded Paul (veto), Howard, and Nash, three all-stars and two of the leagues top ten players over the past three years. He's drafted well, and kept the Lakers in a position where they will have space to make a run in free agency again for the next two years. Yet people are calling for his head because 1 year and 2 games into a rebuild the team isn't looking very good. That's simply what happens when a team rebuilds. Give the guy some time to work, and accept the fact that it's going to be ugly for a couple seasons while the team transitions to finding their post-Kobe star. |
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VegasLakerFan
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Joined: 25 Dec 2011
Posts: 1835
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:24 am Post subject: |
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| 24 wrote: | | You only fire Mitch if you lack even a casual understanding of how the league works. |
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Cool426
Sixth Man
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:29 am Post subject: |
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I stated before the opening day tip off that this Lakers team is the worst in my 40+ years since first started watching the Lakers. Not without my reasons.
Any team who uses advance stats, such as WAR (Win Above Replacement) xRAPM and Win Share gauging players worth will never sign Hill for $10M or even pick up Boozer for $4M.
Hill was a below average player last year with -2.8 xRAPM and a negative 0.7 WAR. He is worth $2M max!
Boozer is even worse. His xRAPM was just awful at -3.3 and -1.9 WAR. Those values were under Thib. He is projected to be worse under a mediocre (and new) coach and deteriorating skills. He barely qualifies as an NBA player by advanced measurements.
Wes had a xRAPM of -3.4 and WAR -1.9.
I will give you an idea how bad those 3 players are. On teams that use advanced stats, those 3 players will not even make their 15-man roster, but on Lakers, they are STARTERS.
Mavs and Grizzlies are two such teams. Mavs worst player, who is not on a rookie contract, is Charlie Villanueva who barely made Mavs roster, and his xRAPM was -0.6 last year. All their players with low xRAPM last year are all gone. Villanueva is definitely a better player than Boozer by statistical measurements.
Grizzlies worst player by xRAPM is Jon Leuer who had just signed a 3-year 2.9M contract with only this year guaranteed. His xRAPM? -1.47
I don't believe Mitch is tanking purposely by signing Hill and Kobe. So there is only conclusions I can come up with:
Mitch is incompetent for the job.
Oh how the tide had turned. Who would've ever thought Kings have traded places with Lakers. Being a long time Kings fan, I give most the credit to the success of Kings to one person: GM Dean Lombardi.
Reference:
http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/2014-nba-preview-the-lakers-are-even-worse-than-they-were-last-year/
Edit: I would not fire Mitch but changes are absolutely needed. He needs to have visions for the future of this team and tells us exactly what they are. If Lakers have to tank for the next 3 years, be it! And that also includes a team of stats geeks, a top notch medical team, and better system developing rookies. If you have to pry top notch coach from another team (Mike Budenholzer), do what's necessary! B/C every little advantage is needed for this era of NBA.
Last edited by Cool426 on Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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