What a terrible loss last night. At home with Kershaw against a pathetic Mets team. _________________ Nobody in the NBA can touch the Laker brand, which, like the uniform color, is pure gold.
Bull pen is trying to choke this game away. smh _________________ Nobody in the NBA can touch the Laker brand, which, like the uniform color, is pure gold.
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35813 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:02 pm Post subject:
Serious question: Is Greinke the best pitcher on the Dodgers at this point? _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
Serious question: Is Greinke the best pitcher on the Dodgers at this point?
Hard to argue with that. He's performing the best at least. But Kershaw was due a down year. You can't go 3 for 4 in Cy Young (should have been 4-4 imo). and not have a down year.
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35813 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 9:47 pm Post subject:
jonnybravo wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Serious question: Is Greinke the best pitcher on the Dodgers at this point?
Hard to argue with that. He's performing the best at least. But Kershaw was due a down year. You can't go 3 for 4 in Cy Young (should have been 4-4 imo). and not have a down year.
Is it wear and tear on his arm, or just psychological? _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
Serious question: Is Greinke the best pitcher on the Dodgers at this point?
Hard to argue with that. He's performing the best at least. But Kershaw was due a down year. You can't go 3 for 4 in Cy Young (should have been 4-4 imo). and not have a down year.
Is it wear and tear on his arm, or just psychological?
Can't really say but just based on historical precedence for him to have kept up that pace for that long is exceptional. Take a look at some of the best pitchers...they're great pitchers but they're Cy Young caliber for maybe a year or two in a row. Off year here or there, resurgence. No one is that good that long.
Just a few of the games best for the last 5 years (or less, just taking full seasons):
David Price ERA: 2.72, 3.5, 2.56, 3.33, 3.26, 2.62
Verlander ERA: 3.37, 2.4, 2.64, 3.46, 4.54, 5.09
Chris Sale ERA: 3.05, 3.07, 2.17, 2.87
Kershaw ERA: 2.91, 2.28, 2.53, 1.83, 1.77, 3.08
He's still good as hell but the standard for him is different than for anyone in the league. For what it's worth though, Greinke's ERA+ is better than Kershaw's last year. It's jaw-dropping. He's currently 11th all time single season. Guys in front of him are the likes of Pedro, Walter Johnson, Maddux etc. All time, stupid good pitchers. Only 3 pitchers ahead of him are in the modern era. The other guys pitched over 100 years ago.
He really needs to ring up more wins. Batters need to come through because if he doesn't win the Cy Young and he keeps up this pace, it's downright criminal. It's a crying shame he's not getting the love right now.
Joined: 26 Apr 2004 Posts: 17249 Location: In a no-ship
Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:40 pm Post subject:
jonnybravo wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Serious question: Is Greinke the best pitcher on the Dodgers at this point?
Hard to argue with that. He's performing the best at least. But Kershaw was due a down year. You can't go 3 for 4 in Cy Young (should have been 4-4 imo). and not have a down year.
I posted this a couple of pages back but no, the answer is Kershaw is still the best on staff.
His advanced stats show he's still the best and I don't think there's really any question. Once his HR/FB% gets back to his historical normal levels you'll see that ERA drop like a rock.
He generally averages between 6-8%, but this year so far it's 16.2%.
Joined: 10 Jul 2009 Posts: 12161 Location: Bay Area
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:47 am Post subject:
Quote:
AMERICAN LEAGUE
C: Salvador Perez, Royals
1B: Miguel Cabrera, Tigers
2B: Jose Altuve, Astros
3B: Josh Donaldson, Blue Jays
SS: Alcides Escobar, Royals
OF: Mike Trout, Angels
OF: Lorenzo Cain, Royals
OF: Alex Gordon, Royals
DH: Nelson Cruz, Mariners
NATIONAL LEAGUE
C: Buster Posey, Giants
1B: Paul Goldschmidt, D-backs
2B: Dee Gordon, Marlins
3B: Todd Frazier, Reds
SS: Jhonny Peralta, Cardinals
OF: Bryce Harper, Nationals
OF: Matt Holliday, Cardinals
OF: Giancarlo Stanton, Marlins
Joined: 20 Jul 2005 Posts: 20510 Location: UCLA -> NY
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:56 pm Post subject:
Cutheon wrote:
Quote:
AMERICAN LEAGUE
C: Salvador Perez, Royals
1B: Miguel Cabrera, Tigers
2B: Jose Altuve, Astros
3B: Josh Donaldson, Blue Jays
SS: Alcides Escobar, Royals
OF: Mike Trout, Angels
OF: Lorenzo Cain, Royals
OF: Alex Gordon, Royals
DH: Nelson Cruz, Mariners
NATIONAL LEAGUE
C: Buster Posey, Giants
1B: Paul Goldschmidt, D-backs
2B: Dee Gordon, Marlins
3B: Todd Frazier, Reds
SS: Jhonny Peralta, Cardinals
OF: Bryce Harper, Nationals
OF: Matt Holliday, Cardinals
OF: Giancarlo Stanton, Marlins
Serious question: Is Greinke the best pitcher on the Dodgers at this point?
Hard to argue with that. He's performing the best at least. But Kershaw was due a down year. You can't go 3 for 4 in Cy Young (should have been 4-4 imo). and not have a down year.
I posted this a couple of pages back but no, the answer is Kershaw is still the best on staff.
His advanced stats show he's still the best and I don't think there's really any question. Once his HR/FB% gets back to his historical normal levels you'll see that ERA drop like a rock.
He generally averages between 6-8%, but this year so far it's 16.2%.
I guarantee you, GUARANTEE, if one pitcher is chosen from the Dodgers to be an All Star, it will be Greinke--without a doubt, unequivocally.
I will always take the guy with an ERA that is half of another guy on the same team.
As for WAR, still too much of a black box to take too seriously, Baseball-Ref has Greinke at 4.8 and Kersh at 1.7. This comports better than FanGraph's WAR to my thinking. _________________ "A metronome keeps time by using a Ringo"
Last edited by ribeye on Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 26 Apr 2004 Posts: 17249 Location: In a no-ship
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:25 pm Post subject:
ribeye wrote:
DuncanIdaho wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Serious question: Is Greinke the best pitcher on the Dodgers at this point?
Hard to argue with that. He's performing the best at least. But Kershaw was due a down year. You can't go 3 for 4 in Cy Young (should have been 4-4 imo). and not have a down year.
I posted this a couple of pages back but no, the answer is Kershaw is still the best on staff.
His advanced stats show he's still the best and I don't think there's really any question. Once his HR/FB% gets back to his historical normal levels you'll see that ERA drop like a rock.
He generally averages between 6-8%, but this year so far it's 16.2%.
I guarantee you, GUARANTEE, if one pitcher is chosen from the Dodgers to be an All Star, it will be Greinke--without a doubt, unequivocally.
I will always take the guy with an ERA that is half of another guy on the same team.
You may be right, but ERA is such an outdated way of looking at things. Take a look at their FIP, xFIP, K/9 and BABIP.
If I had to make a prediction, Kershaw's FB/HR% will come back down, Greinke will start getting unlucky and Kershaw will end the season with the better traditional stats.
If they were on different teams, or different eras, I much prefer ERA+, but not here. Also note my edit that includes WAR. I don't care for FIP. I've watched Kersh groove too many this year that were clobbered to know better, for him anyway. _________________ "A metronome keeps time by using a Ringo"
Joined: 26 Apr 2004 Posts: 17249 Location: In a no-ship
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:35 pm Post subject:
ribeye wrote:
ERA, for two players on the same team, outdated?
Nope.
If they were on different teams, or different eras, I much prefer ERA+, but not here. Also note my edit that includes WAR. I don't care for FIP. I've watched Kersh groove too many this year that were clobbered to know better, for him anyway.
ERA is outdated because it takes into account things outside of the pitcher's control. It's not a good comparison metric, just like RBI is not a good comparison metric for hitters.
And FIP is good for comparison because of what those letters stand for -- fielding independent pitching.
Also, yeah I made a note about the homers. Kersh's HR/FB% is much higher than his career average this year (currently 16.2% vs. a career of 6-8). That's going to go down.
If they were on different teams, or different eras, I much prefer ERA+, but not here. Also note my edit that includes WAR. I don't care for FIP. I've watched Kersh groove too many this year that were clobbered to know better, for him anyway.
ERA is outdated because it takes into account things outside of the pitcher's control. It's not a good comparison metric, just like RBI is not a good comparison metric for hitters.
And FIP is good for comparison because of what those letters stand for -- fielding independent pitching.
Also, yeah I made a note about that. Kersh's HR/FB% is 10% higher than his career average this year. That's going to go down.
Fielding independent balls don't take into account how hard the balls in play are hit or when they are hit. A two out ball to the gap with bases empty has a FIP value. A two out ball with the bases jammed would have the same FIP value, but a much different ERA value.
I'm a huge fan of Kershaw, but just because his FIP is 5th (make that now 6th) in all of baseball (BBR), and I find this of interest, I'm not using this for my argument that he is 5th/6th best in the game or even the best on the Dodgers. _________________ "A metronome keeps time by using a Ringo"
Joined: 26 Apr 2004 Posts: 17249 Location: In a no-ship
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:48 pm Post subject:
ribeye wrote:
DuncanIdaho wrote:
ribeye wrote:
ERA, for two players on the same team, outdated?
Nope.
If they were on different teams, or different eras, I much prefer ERA+, but not here. Also note my edit that includes WAR. I don't care for FIP. I've watched Kersh groove too many this year that were clobbered to know better, for him anyway.
ERA is outdated because it takes into account things outside of the pitcher's control. It's not a good comparison metric, just like RBI is not a good comparison metric for hitters.
And FIP is good for comparison because of what those letters stand for -- fielding independent pitching.
Also, yeah I made a note about that. Kersh's HR/FB% is 10% higher than his career average this year. That's going to go down.
Fielding independent balls don't take into account how hard the balls in play are hit or when they are hit. A two out ball to the gap with bases empty has a FIP value. A two out ball with the bases jammed would have the same FIP value, but a much different ERA value.
I'm a huge fan of Kershaw, but just because his FIP is 5th (make that now 6th) in all of baseball (BBR), and I find this of interest, I'm not using this for my argument that he is 5th/6th best in the game or even the best on the Dodgers.
Far enough.
We're pretty spoiled as fans that we can even debate Kershaw vs. Greinke. Most teams don't even have one guy as good as either of these.
While you're watching stats, keep an eye on Kersh's FB/HR% and his xFIP. You're going to see his ERA drop like a rock over the next couple of months I think.
If they were on different teams, or different eras, I much prefer ERA+, but not here. Also note my edit that includes WAR. I don't care for FIP. I've watched Kersh groove too many this year that were clobbered to know better, for him anyway.
ERA is outdated because it takes into account things outside of the pitcher's control. It's not a good comparison metric, just like RBI is not a good comparison metric for hitters.
And FIP is good for comparison because of what those letters stand for -- fielding independent pitching.
Also, yeah I made a note about that. Kersh's HR/FB% is 10% higher than his career average this year. That's going to go down.
Fielding independent balls don't take into account how hard the balls in play are hit or when they are hit. A two out ball to the gap with bases empty has a FIP value. A two out ball with the bases jammed would have the same FIP value, but a much different ERA value.
I'm a huge fan of Kershaw, but just because his FIP is 5th (make that now 6th) in all of baseball (BBR), and I find this of interest, I'm not using this for my argument that he is 5th/6th best in the game or even the best on the Dodgers.
Far enough.
We're pretty spoiled as fans that we can even debate Kershaw vs. Greinke. Most teams don't even have one guy as good as either of these.
While you're watching stats, keep an eye on Kersh's FB/HR% and his xFIP. You're going to see his ERA drop like a rock over the next couple of months I think.
Not to beat this horse to mush, but compare Kersh and Greinke using only ERA+ vs FIP in the NL.
Greinike is first in ERA+ and Kershaw is 17th
Greinke is 8th in FIP and Kershaw is 2nd.
Which is most reflective?
(And yes, we're spoiled to have a Kershaw, but I bet if we sat down and talked with him, he would not be happy with himself either, as I bet he's also come to expect something akin to his last four seasons.) _________________ "A metronome keeps time by using a Ringo"
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