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Rugbar
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Joined: 14 Nov 2014
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 Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:35 am Post subject: |
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| kobetimeeverytime wrote: | | Rugbar wrote: | | Treble Clef wrote: | | Nightwalker wrote: | | Kobe is an embrassment now please retire before you hurt your amazing legacy anymore. |
This isn't hurting him at all. Kobe is a basketball historian, he knows how this works. After he retires, no one is going to be talking about how dismal shooting percentage in his final years. They'll be marveling at the fact that he was among the scoring leaders at an advanced age after serious injuries. The downsides of players tend to be forgotten over time. |
The thing is basketball historiography has changed, and understanding of advanced metrics is becoming more and more pervasive. This Lakers season will go down in history much as it is being described by the stat geeks now: an example of how not to coach an offense in the modern era. Never again will a player lead the league in usage and shoot so poorly, with a TS% below the average for every team in the league. People will look at Kobe's season this year, and at some of Iverson's seasons, and say: "Wow! It's incredible that those seasons could happen in this century. What were they thinking? These stats are hardly rocket science!" |
this is well said and a underrated point. I wonder how history will judge Kobe as time goes on and statistical approach to basketball analysis become the central narrative. Advanced statistics is not kind to Kobe unfortunately |
Kobe still had an impressive body of work, including a stretch where his WS/48 was at least .196 for nine out of ten seasons. That combined with five rings makes him an unquestioned all-time great. The debate will probably be: Is he top ten or top 20? I'd vote top ten.
About this season, however, there will be no debate. It's a debacle. |
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Cancun Van Exel
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Joined: 15 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:35 am Post subject: |
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| EldenCampbell wrote: | | Reflexx wrote: | If ESPN were to redo the player rankings, Kobe would be somewhere around 400 instead of 40.
Thanks Byron. |
I agree. He has been the worst player in the league, given how he's being used. He's been a net negative on the court - worse than a replacement player - and yet he uses more possessions than anyone else in the league.
| Mini Mamba wrote: | | Kobe looks tired as he feels he has to do too much just for the team to stay competitive. |
The team is quite literally more competitive when he's not playing. |
Which is why the FO doesnt get a pass for giving him the contract. They made the mistake(s) that have lead us here. They did the same thing with Nash, just disregarded his age when giving up so much for him. This is such a basic concept to understand and avoid for people running a franchise. Your best players need to be in their prime to compete. DUH
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governator
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| The worst stretch of Kobe's career... at least that I've seen. Still has faith that he can turn it around and be dominant once again. If not, it's gonna be a long 2 seasons |
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nshid
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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| FredG wrote: | | Don Draper wrote: | http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/ORPM/position/2
ESPN real plus/minus, all they're talking about on 710.
Kobe is last in defense for shooting guards.  |
And #3 in minutes played (at 36 y/o).
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av3773
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Joined: 11 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| In terms of play I think we actually are better off with out Kobe, primarily because Kobe is not going to be part of the next championship team, so I would rather see the young guys play more see how they gel, because some of them might be around whether it's on the bench or whatever, also I think Kobe is so ball dominant it's hard to develop a solid over all chemistry, my guess is if the situation were reversed and it was Nash who was reasonably healthy and Kobe was out, over all the team would be performing better they still wouldn't make the playoffs but I think there would definitely be more cohesion, it's the style of play distributor vs scorer, both would be awful on d, but on the offense more guys would be involved and as a result would probably play with a bit more intensity on the d side......but as long as we are riding with Kobe, BS should at the very least limit the number of games he plays or minutes in a game, not to preserve him for next year I think that's just rubbish if anything I expect Bryant to be worse next year, but to allow the other guys some solid run and really take ownership of the wins and losses |
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KobeBryantCliffordBrown
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Joined: 28 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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| mhan00 wrote: | | Stop playing him whole quarters, and limit him to 30 minutes at most per game. Strongly consider resting him on back to backs. If he still looks fatigued and his efficiency doesn't improve, reduce the minutes even more. If he recovers and looks good, then slowly ramp the minutes back up. Don't just toss him in loaded with lead weights and demand that he swim. Kobe can't physically will himself through anymore, Byron is just killing him by making him try. |
Or, bring him up to game shape by practicing with the team and playing like he's 36 not 66.
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KobeBryantCliffordBrown
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | brunel wrote: | | mad55557777 wrote: | | Let him rests game or two every month,he is just not yound anymore |
Yeah, he needs a game off here and there. We're not making the playoffs, no reason to wear the man down. If he can't even practice, he can certainly take off some games. |
Personally, I think he needs to practice every day and take no games off. Now, if he's injured, then don't practice, but IMO, his lack of practice is hurting his conditioning and his ability to play at the fast pace of the NBA game. He's 36, not 66. I'm damn near 52 and can go with 21 y.o.guys in Muay That and Jui Jitsui all day. Kobe is one of the greatest athletes of all time, he needs to put his big boy pants on and get to work. |
I know this team is full of rentals and vagabounds, but the on-court relationships aren't there either. It's painfully obvious. Basketball, like a good jazz band, requires some chemistry too. |
Yep, another reason to practice dammit!
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“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | brunel wrote: | | mad55557777 wrote: | | Let him rests game or two every month,he is just not yound anymore |
Yeah, he needs a game off here and there. We're not making the playoffs, no reason to wear the man down. If he can't even practice, he can certainly take off some games. |
Personally, I think he needs to practice every day and take no games off. Now, if he's injured, then don't practice, but IMO, his lack of practice is hurting his conditioning and his ability to play at the fast pace of the NBA game. He's 36, not 66. I'm damn near 52 and can go with 21 y.o.guys in Muay That and Jui Jitsui all day. Kobe is one of the greatest athletes of all time, he needs to put his big boy pants on and get to work. |
I know this team is full of rentals and vagabounds, but the on-court relationships aren't there either. It's painfully obvious. Basketball, like a good jazz band, requires some chemistry too. |
Yep, another reason to practice dammit! |
I hope you can get a sense of why I was hoping he'd play less minutes (which means his overall stats would go down this season). This is a 2 year marathon and he came out of the gates strong for the first 15 games, but is really running on fumes the past 10. He doesn't have a strong overall cast but he's got to find a way to nevertheless lean on them and cut his minutes down.
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_#1_
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| The worn legs/worn out due to the excessive season play reason is not fully supported by the record. Kobe shot poorly right out of the gate. First 10 games he was plus 44% only twice. In 6 of the first 10 he was 38% or worst, including a season low 1-14. It's been a rough year from the get go. |
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FredG
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| _#1_ wrote: | | The worn legs/worn out due to the excessive season play reason is not fully supported by the record. Kobe shot poorly right out of the gate. First 10 games he was plus 44% only twice. In 6 of the first 10 he was 38% or worst, including a season low 1-14. It's been a rough year from the get go. |
"Getting into game shape" legs.
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Reflexx
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | brunel wrote: | | mad55557777 wrote: | | Let him rests game or two every month,he is just not yound anymore |
Yeah, he needs a game off here and there. We're not making the playoffs, no reason to wear the man down. If he can't even practice, he can certainly take off some games. |
Personally, I think he needs to practice every day and take no games off. Now, if he's injured, then don't practice, but IMO, his lack of practice is hurting his conditioning and his ability to play at the fast pace of the NBA game. He's 36, not 66. I'm damn near 52 and can go with 21 y.o.guys in Muay That and Jui Jitsui all day. Kobe is one of the greatest athletes of all time, he needs to put his big boy pants on and get to work. |
I know this team is full of rentals and vagabounds, but the on-court relationships aren't there either. It's painfully obvious. Basketball, like a good jazz band, requires some chemistry too. |
Yep, another reason to practice dammit! |
Yeah. I don't really like the idea of him sitting out of practices. Especially since practices are less physically exhausting than games anyway.
I'd rather his minutes in games be reduced by a HUGE amount for a while, and even skip some games. But get him in every practice.
If he only plays 20 minutes a game, but he has great chemistry from practice, then those could be 20 very effective minutes. |
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KobeBryantCliffordBrown
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Joined: 28 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Krispy Kreme wrote: | This is what you wanted Kobe. Highest paid player in the league. Just like Shaq wanted back in 2004 even though Shaq didn't deserve it. Kobe doesn't deserve it either.
I hope he soaks up every loss. This is on him and the F.O why we are so bad.
And he keeps rolling his eyes and balking at the idea at guys like Dirk, Duncan etc taking less money to make this team better.
Like I've said before, Kobe is no better than Shaq was back in 2004, when he was on a power trip to be the highest paid player in the L. Shaq was more vocal about it and disrespectful when he wanted the $$, but at the end of the day, they wanted the same thing. Money over cap room. Meanwhile, guys like Gary Payton, Karl Malone, Tim Duncan and Dirk are a different breed. They put winning first.
I get it, this is a business. Kobe needed to get more money to support his family. But I don't want to hear anything about how winning is the #1 thing for Kobe. It isn't. Money and records are what is driving him now. |
Or, Kobe realizes that it's the players who generate the income and he wasn't about to let the actions of others or the opinions of pissants determine his market value. In other words, Kobe doesn't care what you think about his contract and he's damn sure not going to let a bunch of Power hungry biillionaires and lame media shills goad him into signing for peanuts on the dollar. And if you think it's all about wining for Kobe, it's not. It's all about winning on his terms. You don't like it, go root for the Spurs, or quite watching Laker basketball for the next few years. Or even keep on (bleep) about something that's done and about the greatest Laker of all time.
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“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
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KobeBryantCliffordBrown
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Joined: 28 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | brunel wrote: | | mad55557777 wrote: | | Let him rests game or two every month,he is just not yound anymore |
Yeah, he needs a game off here and there. We're not making the playoffs, no reason to wear the man down. If he can't even practice, he can certainly take off some games. |
Personally, I think he needs to practice every day and take no games off. Now, if he's injured, then don't practice, but IMO, his lack of practice is hurting his conditioning and his ability to play at the fast pace of the NBA game. He's 36, not 66. I'm damn near 52 and can go with 21 y.o.guys in Muay That and Jui Jitsui all day. Kobe is one of the greatest athletes of all time, he needs to put his big boy pants on and get to work. |
I know this team is full of rentals and vagabounds, but the on-court relationships aren't there either. It's painfully obvious. Basketball, like a good jazz band, requires some chemistry too. |
Yep, another reason to practice dammit! |
I hope you can get a sense of why I was hoping he'd play less minutes (which means his overall stats would go down this season). This is a 2 year marathon and he came out of the gates strong for the first 15 games, but is really running on fumes the past 10. He doesn't have a strong overall cast but he's got to find a way to nevertheless lean on them and cut his minutes down. |
No, I get it. I just don't think if he were in great shape and practicing that he can't play 35 minutes a game. I don't think his age is excessive for that.
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“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays |
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | Krispy Kreme wrote: | This is what you wanted Kobe. Highest paid player in the league. Just like Shaq wanted back in 2004 even though Shaq didn't deserve it. Kobe doesn't deserve it either.
I hope he soaks up every loss. This is on him and the F.O why we are so bad.
And he keeps rolling his eyes and balking at the idea at guys like Dirk, Duncan etc taking less money to make this team better.
Like I've said before, Kobe is no better than Shaq was back in 2004, when he was on a power trip to be the highest paid player in the L. Shaq was more vocal about it and disrespectful when he wanted the $$, but at the end of the day, they wanted the same thing. Money over cap room. Meanwhile, guys like Gary Payton, Karl Malone, Tim Duncan and Dirk are a different breed. They put winning first.
I get it, this is a business. Kobe needed to get more money to support his family. But I don't want to hear anything about how winning is the #1 thing for Kobe. It isn't. Money and records are what is driving him now. |
Or, Kobe realizes that it's the players who generate the income and he wasn't about to let the actions of others or the opinions of pissants determine his market value. In other words, Kobe doesn't care what you think about his contract and he's damn sure not going to let a bunch of Power hungry biillionaires and lame media shills goad him into signing for peanuts on the dollar. And if you think it's all about wining for Kobe, it's not. It's all about winning on his terms. You don't like it, go root for the Spurs, or quite watching Laker basketball for the next few years. Or even keep on (bleep) about something that's done and about the greatest Laker of all time. |
When Kobe finally hangs it up, will you still be cheering for the Lakers? If not, who? Who is the next Kobe torchbearer in the same way Kobe was Michael Jordan's?
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PhoenixForce
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Joined: 07 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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Kobe's minutes should have never been so high to start this season and he should have been taking 2nd game of back to backs off. Byron is really mishandling the Kobe situation.
30-32 mpg max
Take 2nd game of back to backs off |
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KobeBryantCliffordBrown
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Joined: 28 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | Krispy Kreme wrote: | This is what you wanted Kobe. Highest paid player in the league. Just like Shaq wanted back in 2004 even though Shaq didn't deserve it. Kobe doesn't deserve it either.
I hope he soaks up every loss. This is on him and the F.O why we are so bad.
And he keeps rolling his eyes and balking at the idea at guys like Dirk, Duncan etc taking less money to make this team better.
Like I've said before, Kobe is no better than Shaq was back in 2004, when he was on a power trip to be the highest paid player in the L. Shaq was more vocal about it and disrespectful when he wanted the $$, but at the end of the day, they wanted the same thing. Money over cap room. Meanwhile, guys like Gary Payton, Karl Malone, Tim Duncan and Dirk are a different breed. They put winning first.
I get it, this is a business. Kobe needed to get more money to support his family. But I don't want to hear anything about how winning is the #1 thing for Kobe. It isn't. Money and records are what is driving him now. |
Or, Kobe realizes that it's the players who generate the income and he wasn't about to let the actions of others or the opinions of pissants determine his market value. In other words, Kobe doesn't care what you think about his contract and he's damn sure not going to let a bunch of Power hungry biillionaires and lame media shills goad him into signing for peanuts on the dollar. And if you think it's all about wining for Kobe, it's not. It's all about winning on his terms. You don't like it, go root for the Spurs, or quite watching Laker basketball for the next few years. Or even keep on (bleep) about something that's done and about the greatest Laker of all time. |
When Kobe finally hangs it up, will you still be cheering for the Lakers? If not, who? Who is the next Kobe torchbearer in the same way Kobe was Michael Jordan's? |
I'll probably become an occasional fan of the game and spend a lot of time watching YT footage of Kobe. Now, if someone comes along who really grabs my attention, like if Thon Maker fufills his potential, then I will watch him.
I will never root for another team though and when the Lakers contend again, I'll root for them.
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“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays |
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MickMgl
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Joined: 07 Jan 2013
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| VegasLakerFan wrote: | | Phillycheese wrote: | | VegasLakerFan wrote: | | Melbournefans wrote: | | VegasLakerFan wrote: | | Laker Lover wrote: | | DJ Slik wrote: | | kobe is embarking into "tarnishing legacy" territory with performances like this. he's one of the greatest of all time, but the player in his own mind is the most difficult to defeat. he is high on his own smack, and byron scott is the empowering junkie girlfriend who helps him put the tourniquet on. |
I disagree. Kobe's accomplishments are set in stone. Nothing he can do to tarnish that. |
This.
I think everyone knows what Kobe was and is aware of what's going on now. He's just trying to see if he still has it. That's all this is. Kobe knows we aren't going anywhere and he's not trying to bail to ride anyone's coattails.
This isn't about winning a title, it's about Kobe proving that his Achilles' wasn't the end of him. And it isn't. His legacy pre-Achilles' will always be safe. Well, except amongst the haters, most of whom either have ulterior motives or are simply stupid people. |
So for this stupid reason, Kobe has no choice to scrifice other team mates..... |
...what? |
Most of team is on last year of their deals. So Kobe jacking up crap costs them money because they don't get their touches, is what the poster is referring to. I'd love to see the rest of the Lakers freeze him out like what was done to Reggie Jackson. |
So... Kobe = Reggie Jackson?
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At best. |
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P.K.
Retired Number
Joined: 10 Jul 2003
Posts: 29726
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | brunel wrote: | | mad55557777 wrote: | | Let him rests game or two every month,he is just not yound anymore |
Yeah, he needs a game off here and there. We're not making the playoffs, no reason to wear the man down. If he can't even practice, he can certainly take off some games. |
Personally, I think he needs to practice every day and take no games off. Now, if he's injured, then don't practice, but IMO, his lack of practice is hurting his conditioning and his ability to play at the fast pace of the NBA game. He's 36, not 66. I'm damn near 52 and can go with 21 y.o.guys in Muay That and Jui Jitsui all day. Kobe is one of the greatest athletes of all time, he needs to put his big boy pants on and get to work. |
I know this team is full of rentals and vagabounds, but the on-court relationships aren't there either. It's painfully obvious. Basketball, like a good jazz band, requires some chemistry too. |
Yep, another reason to practice dammit! |
I hope you can get a sense of why I was hoping he'd play less minutes (which means his overall stats would go down this season). This is a 2 year marathon and he came out of the gates strong for the first 15 games, but is really running on fumes the past 10. He doesn't have a strong overall cast but he's got to find a way to nevertheless lean on them and cut his minutes down. |
Actually, he came out strong for 3 out of the first 4. So strong, I thought his #40 rating should have been about #15 instead. But, it didn't last
The next 8 games or so were not so strong - they were erratic in quality, but mostly below average. You had a few strong games, a few really bad games, and the rest were in the range of marginally bad.
What we've seen for the last 10 games is a trend line that shows us going from marginally bad to really bad, and throw in a few really really bad games.
In November, I took a lot of heat for looking at the trend line and saying if this kept up, in 3 weeks he'd have an average FG% in the 37% range. We're there now.
And the current trend looks like it'll soon drop into the 34% range.
And, the unfortunate thing is, the other aspects of his game are also declining in along the same trend with his FG%.
He definitely needs time off
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Jeggs
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Rugbar wrote: | | kobetimeeverytime wrote: | | Rugbar wrote: | | Treble Clef wrote: | | Nightwalker wrote: | | Kobe is an embrassment now please retire before you hurt your amazing legacy anymore. |
This isn't hurting him at all. Kobe is a basketball historian, he knows how this works. After he retires, no one is going to be talking about how dismal shooting percentage in his final years. They'll be marveling at the fact that he was among the scoring leaders at an advanced age after serious injuries. The downsides of players tend to be forgotten over time. |
The thing is basketball historiography has changed, and understanding of advanced metrics is becoming more and more pervasive. This Lakers season will go down in history much as it is being described by the stat geeks now: an example of how not to coach an offense in the modern era. Never again will a player lead the league in usage and shoot so poorly, with a TS% below the average for every team in the league. People will look at Kobe's season this year, and at some of Iverson's seasons, and say: "Wow! It's incredible that those seasons could happen in this century. What were they thinking? These stats are hardly rocket science!" |
this is well said and a underrated point. I wonder how history will judge Kobe as time goes on and statistical approach to basketball analysis become the central narrative. Advanced statistics is not kind to Kobe unfortunately |
Kobe still had an impressive body of work, including a stretch where his WS/48 was at least .196 for nine out of ten seasons. That combined with five rings makes him an unquestioned all-time great. The debate will probably be: Is he top ten or top 20? I'd vote top ten.
About this season, however, there will be no debate. It's a debacle. |
This season won't be weighted against Kobe because it's his 1st season back from a possible career ending injury.
Many credible people have already put Kobe as goat however. John wooden one example. For me the question is...is Kobe the goat over magic because the reality is Michael Jordan is #3 behind those two.
Last edited by Jeggs on Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeggs wrote: | | Rugbar wrote: | | kobetimeeverytime wrote: | | Rugbar wrote: | | Treble Clef wrote: | | Nightwalker wrote: | | Kobe is an embrassment now please retire before you hurt your amazing legacy anymore. |
This isn't hurting him at all. Kobe is a basketball historian, he knows how this works. After he retires, no one is going to be talking about how dismal shooting percentage in his final years. They'll be marveling at the fact that he was among the scoring leaders at an advanced age after serious injuries. The downsides of players tend to be forgotten over time. |
The thing is basketball historiography has changed, and understanding of advanced metrics is becoming more and more pervasive. This Lakers season will go down in history much as it is being described by the stat geeks now: an example of how not to coach an offense in the modern era. Never again will a player lead the league in usage and shoot so poorly, with a TS% below the average for every team in the league. People will look at Kobe's season this year, and at some of Iverson's seasons, and say: "Wow! It's incredible that those seasons could happen in this century. What were they thinking? These stats are hardly rocket science!" |
this is well said and a underrated point. I wonder how history will judge Kobe as time goes on and statistical approach to basketball analysis become the central narrative. Advanced statistics is not kind to Kobe unfortunately |
Kobe still had an impressive body of work, including a stretch where his WS/48 was at least .196 for nine out of ten seasons. That combined with five rings makes him an unquestioned all-time great. The debate will probably be: Is he top ten or top 20? I'd vote top ten.
About this season, however, there will be no debate. It's a debacle. |
This season won't be weighted against Kobe because it's his 1st season back from a possible career ending injury.
Many credible people have already put Kobe as goat however. For me the question is...is Kobe the goat over magic because the reality is Michael Jordan is #3 behind those two. |
AKA John Wooden...anyone else?
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From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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Jeggs
Star Player
Joined: 14 Oct 2013
Posts: 1659
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Jeggs wrote: | | Rugbar wrote: | | kobetimeeverytime wrote: | | Rugbar wrote: | | Treble Clef wrote: | | Nightwalker wrote: | | Kobe is an embrassment now please retire before you hurt your amazing legacy anymore. |
This isn't hurting him at all. Kobe is a basketball historian, he knows how this works. After he retires, no one is going to be talking about how dismal shooting percentage in his final years. They'll be marveling at the fact that he was among the scoring leaders at an advanced age after serious injuries. The downsides of players tend to be forgotten over time. |
The thing is basketball historiography has changed, and understanding of advanced metrics is becoming more and more pervasive. This Lakers season will go down in history much as it is being described by the stat geeks now: an example of how not to coach an offense in the modern era. Never again will a player lead the league in usage and shoot so poorly, with a TS% below the average for every team in the league. People will look at Kobe's season this year, and at some of Iverson's seasons, and say: "Wow! It's incredible that those seasons could happen in this century. What were they thinking? These stats are hardly rocket science!" |
this is well said and a underrated point. I wonder how history will judge Kobe as time goes on and statistical approach to basketball analysis become the central narrative. Advanced statistics is not kind to Kobe unfortunately |
Kobe still had an impressive body of work, including a stretch where his WS/48 was at least .196 for nine out of ten seasons. That combined with five rings makes him an unquestioned all-time great. The debate will probably be: Is he top ten or top 20? I'd vote top ten.
About this season, however, there will be no debate. It's a debacle. |
This season won't be weighted against Kobe because it's his 1st season back from a possible career ending injury.
Many credible people have already put Kobe as goat however. For me the question is...is Kobe the goat over magic because the reality is Michael Jordan is #3 behind those two. |
AKA John Wooden...anyone else? |
Does there need to be anyone else? Didn't think so. |
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yinoma2001
Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeggs wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Jeggs wrote: | | Rugbar wrote: | | kobetimeeverytime wrote: | | Rugbar wrote: | | Treble Clef wrote: | | Nightwalker wrote: | | Kobe is an embrassment now please retire before you hurt your amazing legacy anymore. |
This isn't hurting him at all. Kobe is a basketball historian, he knows how this works. After he retires, no one is going to be talking about how dismal shooting percentage in his final years. They'll be marveling at the fact that he was among the scoring leaders at an advanced age after serious injuries. The downsides of players tend to be forgotten over time. |
The thing is basketball historiography has changed, and understanding of advanced metrics is becoming more and more pervasive. This Lakers season will go down in history much as it is being described by the stat geeks now: an example of how not to coach an offense in the modern era. Never again will a player lead the league in usage and shoot so poorly, with a TS% below the average for every team in the league. People will look at Kobe's season this year, and at some of Iverson's seasons, and say: "Wow! It's incredible that those seasons could happen in this century. What were they thinking? These stats are hardly rocket science!" |
this is well said and a underrated point. I wonder how history will judge Kobe as time goes on and statistical approach to basketball analysis become the central narrative. Advanced statistics is not kind to Kobe unfortunately |
Kobe still had an impressive body of work, including a stretch where his WS/48 was at least .196 for nine out of ten seasons. That combined with five rings makes him an unquestioned all-time great. The debate will probably be: Is he top ten or top 20? I'd vote top ten.
About this season, however, there will be no debate. It's a debacle. |
This season won't be weighted against Kobe because it's his 1st season back from a possible career ending injury.
Many credible people have already put Kobe as goat however. For me the question is...is Kobe the goat over magic because the reality is Michael Jordan is #3 behind those two. |
AKA John Wooden...anyone else? |
Does there need to be anyone else? Didn't think so. |
So that's it...got it.
_________________
From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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Jeggs
Star Player
Joined: 14 Oct 2013
Posts: 1659
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Jeggs wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Jeggs wrote: | | Rugbar wrote: | | kobetimeeverytime wrote: | | Rugbar wrote: | | Treble Clef wrote: | | Nightwalker wrote: | | Kobe is an embrassment now please retire before you hurt your amazing legacy anymore. |
This isn't hurting him at all. Kobe is a basketball historian, he knows how this works. After he retires, no one is going to be talking about how dismal shooting percentage in his final years. They'll be marveling at the fact that he was among the scoring leaders at an advanced age after serious injuries. The downsides of players tend to be forgotten over time. |
The thing is basketball historiography has changed, and understanding of advanced metrics is becoming more and more pervasive. This Lakers season will go down in history much as it is being described by the stat geeks now: an example of how not to coach an offense in the modern era. Never again will a player lead the league in usage and shoot so poorly, with a TS% below the average for every team in the league. People will look at Kobe's season this year, and at some of Iverson's seasons, and say: "Wow! It's incredible that those seasons could happen in this century. What were they thinking? These stats are hardly rocket science!" |
this is well said and a underrated point. I wonder how history will judge Kobe as time goes on and statistical approach to basketball analysis become the central narrative. Advanced statistics is not kind to Kobe unfortunately |
Kobe still had an impressive body of work, including a stretch where his WS/48 was at least .196 for nine out of ten seasons. That combined with five rings makes him an unquestioned all-time great. The debate will probably be: Is he top ten or top 20? I'd vote top ten.
About this season, however, there will be no debate. It's a debacle. |
This season won't be weighted against Kobe because it's his 1st season back from a possible career ending injury.
Many credible people have already put Kobe as goat however. For me the question is...is Kobe the goat over magic because the reality is Michael Jordan is #3 behind those two. |
AKA John Wooden...anyone else? |
Does there need to be anyone else? Didn't think so. |
So that's it...got it. |
We've had this debat plenty of times. It's not just John wooden. Look up the other Kobe Vs mj threads. But if you get John Wooden's endorsement you don't need any other endorsement. |
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thejet24
Star Player
Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 3020
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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Someone needs to tell Kobe when build a mountain, you got to be careful you don't fall off that mountain by trying to build it too high.
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2008-2010 Finals. 28.9 PTS 6.1 REB 5.4 AST 2.1 STLs |
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l4kerz
Star Player
Joined: 10 Jan 2010
Posts: 1572
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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| governator wrote: | | The worst stretch of Kobe's career... at least that I've seen. Still has faith that he can turn it around and be dominant once again. If not, it's gonna be a long 2 seasons |
He can if he
1. Stops playing PG
2. Practices daily on his shot, which has been falling short |
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