Kobe is an embrassment now please retire before you hurt your amazing legacy anymore.
This isn't hurting him at all. Kobe is a basketball historian, he knows how this works. After he retires, no one is going to be talking about how dismal shooting percentage in his final years. They'll be marveling at the fact that he was among the scoring leaders at an advanced age after serious injuries. The downsides of players tend to be forgotten over time.
The thing is basketball historiography has changed, and understanding of advanced metrics is becoming more and more pervasive. This Lakers season will go down in history much as it is being described by the stat geeks now: an example of how not to coach an offense in the modern era. Never again will a player lead the league in usage and shoot so poorly, with a TS% below the average for every team in the league. People will look at Kobe's season this year, and at some of Iverson's seasons, and say: "Wow! It's incredible that those seasons could happen in this century. What were they thinking? These stats are hardly rocket science!"
this is well said and a underrated point. I wonder how history will judge Kobe as time goes on and statistical approach to basketball analysis become the central narrative. Advanced statistics is not kind to Kobe unfortunately
Kobe still had an impressive body of work, including a stretch where his WS/48 was at least .196 for nine out of ten seasons. That combined with five rings makes him an unquestioned all-time great. The debate will probably be: Is he top ten or top 20? I'd vote top ten.
About this season, however, there will be no debate. It's a debacle.
This season won't be weighted against Kobe because it's his 1st season back from a possible career ending injury.
Many credible people have already put Kobe as goat however. John wooden one example. For me the question is...is Kobe the goat over magic because the reality is Michael Jordan is #3 behind those two.
Kobe is an embrassment now please retire before you hurt your amazing legacy anymore.
This isn't hurting him at all. Kobe is a basketball historian, he knows how this works. After he retires, no one is going to be talking about how dismal shooting percentage in his final years. They'll be marveling at the fact that he was among the scoring leaders at an advanced age after serious injuries. The downsides of players tend to be forgotten over time.
The thing is basketball historiography has changed, and understanding of advanced metrics is becoming more and more pervasive. This Lakers season will go down in history much as it is being described by the stat geeks now: an example of how not to coach an offense in the modern era. Never again will a player lead the league in usage and shoot so poorly, with a TS% below the average for every team in the league. People will look at Kobe's season this year, and at some of Iverson's seasons, and say: "Wow! It's incredible that those seasons could happen in this century. What were they thinking? These stats are hardly rocket science!"
this is well said and a underrated point. I wonder how history will judge Kobe as time goes on and statistical approach to basketball analysis become the central narrative. Advanced statistics is not kind to Kobe unfortunately
Kobe still had an impressive body of work, including a stretch where his WS/48 was at least .196 for nine out of ten seasons. That combined with five rings makes him an unquestioned all-time great. The debate will probably be: Is he top ten or top 20? I'd vote top ten.
About this season, however, there will be no debate. It's a debacle.
This season won't be weighted against Kobe because it's his 1st season back from a possible career ending injury.
Many credible people have already put Kobe as goat however. John wooden one example. For me the question is...is Kobe the goat over magic because the reality is Michael Jordan is #3 behind those two.
I guess reality is mobile
These three words sums up Michael Jordan's career: WATERED DOWN ERA.
Many people are saying Byron is killing Kobe by making him play so many minutes... "Making him"? Really?
Not even Phil Jackson could convince Kobe to follow a plan. Kobe has, more or less, done what he´s wanted on and off the court for the biggest part of his career. He had that status and as long as it gave results, everybody was more or less happy with the situation.
Do you really think Byron Scott could throw Kobe under the bus? Do you think Kobe is playing so many minutes in spite of him asking Byron to rest? Do you think Kobe is sacrificing his legacy playing as bad as I´ve seen a star play because the coach has asked him to help the team to get...nowhere?
Come on, guys... Kobe is doing, again, what he wants. He´s seen there´s no chance for him to get one more ring before he retires, so he wants to be on the court as much as possible, shoot as much as he can and surpass as many players as he´s able to surpass in the all-time scoring list. And I am sure that if he makes it to the All Star, he´ll try to outscore every motherbleep around.
you guys need to stop looking at this as a real season. This is post Achilles Kobe trying to find his groove.
Kobe should be taking 30-40 shots a game. Who cares about efficiency on this team. It won't matter. At the end of the day when Kobe does have a few good games scoring 40 plus on occasion that's what matters.
Look at these games as more of a training camp for Kobe. This season won't affect Kobes legacy because of the Achilles injury.
Kobe is an embrassment now please retire before you hurt your amazing legacy anymore.
This isn't hurting him at all. Kobe is a basketball historian, he knows how this works. After he retires, no one is going to be talking about how dismal shooting percentage in his final years. They'll be marveling at the fact that he was among the scoring leaders at an advanced age after serious injuries. The downsides of players tend to be forgotten over time.
The thing is basketball historiography has changed, and understanding of advanced metrics is becoming more and more pervasive. This Lakers season will go down in history much as it is being described by the stat geeks now: an example of how not to coach an offense in the modern era. Never again will a player lead the league in usage and shoot so poorly, with a TS% below the average for every team in the league. People will look at Kobe's season this year, and at some of Iverson's seasons, and say: "Wow! It's incredible that those seasons could happen in this century. What were they thinking? These stats are hardly rocket science!"
this is well said and a underrated point. I wonder how history will judge Kobe as time goes on and statistical approach to basketball analysis become the central narrative. Advanced statistics is not kind to Kobe unfortunately
Kobe still had an impressive body of work, including a stretch where his WS/48 was at least .196 for nine out of ten seasons. That combined with five rings makes him an unquestioned all-time great. The debate will probably be: Is he top ten or top 20? I'd vote top ten.
About this season, however, there will be no debate. It's a debacle.
This season won't be weighted against Kobe because it's his 1st season back from a possible career ending injury.
Many credible people have already put Kobe as goat however. John wooden one example. For me the question is...is Kobe the goat over magic because the reality is Michael Jordan is #3 behind those two.
I guess reality is mobile
These three words sums up Michael Jordan's career: WATERED DOWN ERA.
I would probably be more inclined to agree with you than most but really what's the point of this debate? Even if you are absolutely convinced of your point of view and have the staunchest of convictions, your view that Kobe>MJ all time will still never rise above being a fringe minority perspective. The reality or should I say consensus is by and large that Kobe is behind MJ and the margin depends on who you ask and the mercy of their prejudices.
How Kobe will be judged by history will not be in accordance with Jeggs from Lakersground.net but the overall consensus, and my question was one of historiography and not eliciting people's actual opinions.
you guys need to stop looking at this as a real season. This is post Achilles Kobe trying to find his groove.
Kobe should be taking 30-40 shots a game. Who cares about efficiency on this team. It won't matter. At the end of the day when Kobe does have a few good games scoring 40 plus on occasion that's what matters.
Look at these games as more of a training camp for Kobe. This season won't affect Kobes legacy because of the Achilles injury.
If he plays like that then it's a training camp towards retirement. No top free agent wants to come on a team with a guy playing like that, even if he promises he'll stop doing it next season. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals
Many people are saying Byron is killing Kobe by making him play so many minutes... "Making him"? Really?
Not even Phil Jackson could convince Kobe to follow a plan. Kobe has, more or less, done what he´s wanted on and off the court for the biggest part of his career. He had that status and as long as it gave results, everybody was more or less happy with the situation.
Do you really think Byron Scott could throw Kobe under the bus? Do you think Kobe is playing so many minutes in spite of him asking Byron to rest? Do you think Kobe is sacrificing his legacy playing as bad as I´ve seen a star play because the coach has asked him to help the team to get...nowhere?
Come on, guys... Kobe is doing, again, what he wants. He´s seen there´s no chance for him to get one more ring before he retires, so he wants to be on the court as much as possible, shoot as much as he can and surpass as many players as he´s able to surpass in the all-time scoring list. And I am sure that if he makes it to the All Star, he´ll try to outscore every motherbleep around.
I think so as well, but didn't want to be the one saying it because people would chalk my opinion up to satisfying an agenda of another player.
But yeah, I do believe that Kobe is and has been the one calling all the shots including the benching of Lin and Boozer.
Many people are saying Byron is killing Kobe by making him play so many minutes... "Making him"? Really?
Not even Phil Jackson could convince Kobe to follow a plan. Kobe has, more or less, done what he´s wanted on and off the court for the biggest part of his career. He had that status and as long as it gave results, everybody was more or less happy with the situation.
Do you really think Byron Scott could throw Kobe under the bus? Do you think Kobe is playing so many minutes in spite of him asking Byron to rest? Do you think Kobe is sacrificing his legacy playing as bad as I´ve seen a star play because the coach has asked him to help the team to get...nowhere?
Come on, guys... Kobe is doing, again, what he wants. He´s seen there´s no chance for him to get one more ring before he retires, so he wants to be on the court as much as possible, shoot as much as he can and surpass as many players as he´s able to surpass in the all-time scoring list. And I am sure that if he makes it to the All Star, he´ll try to outscore every motherbleep around.
Yeah, I remember a game this season where we were getting blown out. It was 4th quarter and all the starters were out of the game EXCEPT KOBE. Kobe wouldnt let Scott take him out!
SportsCenter @SportsCenter · 7m7 minutes ago
Crazy Stat of Day: Kobe Bryant has missed 380 shots this season. Dirk Nowitzki has taken 382 shots this season.
Kobe is an embrassment now please retire before you hurt your amazing legacy anymore.
This isn't hurting him at all. Kobe is a basketball historian, he knows how this works. After he retires, no one is going to be talking about how dismal shooting percentage in his final years. They'll be marveling at the fact that he was among the scoring leaders at an advanced age after serious injuries. The downsides of players tend to be forgotten over time.
The thing is basketball historiography has changed, and understanding of advanced metrics is becoming more and more pervasive. This Lakers season will go down in history much as it is being described by the stat geeks now: an example of how not to coach an offense in the modern era. Never again will a player lead the league in usage and shoot so poorly, with a TS% below the average for every team in the league. People will look at Kobe's season this year, and at some of Iverson's seasons, and say: "Wow! It's incredible that those seasons could happen in this century. What were they thinking? These stats are hardly rocket science!"
this is well said and a underrated point. I wonder how history will judge Kobe as time goes on and statistical approach to basketball analysis become the central narrative. Advanced statistics is not kind to Kobe unfortunately
Kobe still had an impressive body of work, including a stretch where his WS/48 was at least .196 for nine out of ten seasons. That combined with five rings makes him an unquestioned all-time great. The debate will probably be: Is he top ten or top 20? I'd vote top ten.
About this season, however, there will be no debate. It's a debacle.
This season won't be weighted against Kobe because it's his 1st season back from a possible career ending injury.
Many credible people have already put Kobe as goat however. John wooden one example. For me the question is...is Kobe the goat over magic because the reality is Michael Jordan is #3 behind those two.
I guess reality is mobile
These three words sums up Michael Jordan's career: WATERED DOWN ERA.
Joined: 13 Sep 2008 Posts: 5699 Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 2:03 pm Post subject:
Charisma wrote:
SportsCenter @SportsCenter · 7m7 minutes ago
Crazy Stat of Day: Kobe Bryant has missed 380 shots this season. Dirk Nowitzki has taken 382 shots this season.
Typical of Kobe to do something like this. Even Dirk is getting less shots because of his selfishness.
Kobe is an embrassment now please retire before you hurt your amazing legacy anymore.
This isn't hurting him at all. Kobe is a basketball historian, he knows how this works. After he retires, no one is going to be talking about how dismal shooting percentage in his final years. They'll be marveling at the fact that he was among the scoring leaders at an advanced age after serious injuries. The downsides of players tend to be forgotten over time.
The thing is basketball historiography has changed, and understanding of advanced metrics is becoming more and more pervasive. This Lakers season will go down in history much as it is being described by the stat geeks now: an example of how not to coach an offense in the modern era. Never again will a player lead the league in usage and shoot so poorly, with a TS% below the average for every team in the league. People will look at Kobe's season this year, and at some of Iverson's seasons, and say: "Wow! It's incredible that those seasons could happen in this century. What were they thinking? These stats are hardly rocket science!"
this is well said and a underrated point. I wonder how history will judge Kobe as time goes on and statistical approach to basketball analysis become the central narrative. Advanced statistics is not kind to Kobe unfortunately
Kobe pre achilles injury had phenomenal advanced stats.
Kobe is an embrassment now please retire before you hurt your amazing legacy anymore.
This isn't hurting him at all. Kobe is a basketball historian, he knows how this works. After he retires, no one is going to be talking about how dismal shooting percentage in his final years. They'll be marveling at the fact that he was among the scoring leaders at an advanced age after serious injuries. The downsides of players tend to be forgotten over time.
The thing is basketball historiography has changed, and understanding of advanced metrics is becoming more and more pervasive. This Lakers season will go down in history much as it is being described by the stat geeks now: an example of how not to coach an offense in the modern era. Never again will a player lead the league in usage and shoot so poorly, with a TS% below the average for every team in the league. People will look at Kobe's season this year, and at some of Iverson's seasons, and say: "Wow! It's incredible that those seasons could happen in this century. What were they thinking? These stats are hardly rocket science!"
this is well said and a underrated point. I wonder how history will judge Kobe as time goes on and statistical approach to basketball analysis become the central narrative. Advanced statistics is not kind to Kobe unfortunately
Kobe pre achilles injury had phenomenal advanced stats.
Both in the box-score and in the +/- stuff.
"Not kind" lmao.
I know what he meant. The advanced stats have always identified Kobe as one of the best players in the game but they don't put him miles ahead of the next best guy like many people feel they should.
Many credible people have already put Kobe as goat however. For me the question is...is Kobe the goat over magic because the reality is Michael Jordan is #3 behind those two.
Hmmm no Kobe isn't even close to GOAT. Go ahead and provide a link to John Wooden saying that. John Wooden liked team basketball, like all the great minds. Kobe is the antithesis of that.
You might be confusing GOAT with "my favorite top 10 player" _________________ Championships since NBA/ABA merger in '76: Lakers 10 - Celtics 5 - Clippers 0 --- Phil Jackson 10 - Doc Rivers 1
Last edited by Cancun Van Exel on Mon Dec 22, 2014 3:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
Let him rests game or two every month,he is just not yound anymore
Yeah, he needs a game off here and there. We're not making the playoffs, no reason to wear the man down. If he can't even practice, he can certainly take off some games.
Personally, I think he needs to practice every day and take no games off. Now, if he's injured, then don't practice, but IMO, his lack of practice is hurting his conditioning and his ability to play at the fast pace of the NBA game. He's 36, not 66. I'm damn near 52 and can go with 21 y.o.guys in Muay That and Jui Jitsui all day. Kobe is one of the greatest athletes of all time, he needs to put his big boy pants on and get to work.
I know this team is full of rentals and vagabounds, but the on-court relationships aren't there either. It's painfully obvious. Basketball, like a good jazz band, requires some chemistry too.
Yep, another reason to practice dammit!
Yeah. I don't really like the idea of him sitting out of practices. Especially since practices are less physically exhausting than games anyway.
I'd rather his minutes in games be reduced by a HUGE amount for a while, and even skip some games. But get him in every practice.
If he only plays 20 minutes a game, but he has great chemistry from practice, then those could be 20 very effective minutes.
Practice hard and the games will be easy. If it's his conditioning a problem then he needs to practice. If it's age then he should still practice but cut down his minutes. I guarantee if he practice and cuts down his minutes he will be more efficient and effective then not practicing and playing tons of minutes.
this is how I saw Kobe rounding out his career long ago... Still trying to take a ton of low percentage shots instead of focusing on scoring more efficiently.
This is hurting Kobe's legacy. He's a career 45% FG shooter, if he plays this bad until the end of next year it could drop to 43%. It would be in everyone's best interest if he retired, he's just not good anymore. If he retired, not only will that attract FA's but it'll also speed up the rebuild.
Many credible people have already put Kobe as goat however. For me the question is...is Kobe the goat over magic because the reality is Michael Jordan is #3 behind those two.
Hmmm no Kobe isn't even close to GOAT. Go ahead and provide a link to John Wooden saying that. John Wooden liked team basketball, like all the great minds. Kobe is the antithesis of that.
You might be confusing GOAT with "my favorite top 10 player"
Not going to waste my time substantiating what has already been reiterated on these forums in various goat discussion threads. you have to do your own research. But yes John wooden stated it, and made similar statements along those lines.
you guys need to stop looking at this as a real season. This is post Achilles Kobe trying to find his groove.
Kobe should be taking 30-40 shots a game. Who cares about efficiency on this team. It won't matter. At the end of the day when Kobe does have a few good games scoring 40 plus on occasion that's what matters.
Look at these games as more of a training camp for Kobe. This season won't affect Kobes legacy because of the Achilles injury.
If he plays like that then it's a training camp towards retirement. No top free agent wants to come on a team with a guy playing like that, even if he promises he'll stop doing it next season.
There are no top free agents besides durant that can handle the pressure of being the star in LA and that would bring the lakers to a championship level again. The whole 'no star wants to come here because of Kobe' doesn't even matter because besides durant there is no star worth pursuing.
Lord help Jeggs if and when Durant takes his talent elsewhere.
The Kobe ethos will not be around without Kobe much like Phil Jax's Triangle system is dependent on Phil Jax. Sorry but you have to start embracing a post Kobe world. It's fast approaching. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals
Many credible people have already put Kobe as goat however. For me the question is...is Kobe the goat over magic because the reality is Michael Jordan is #3 behind those two.
Hmmm no Kobe isn't even close to GOAT. Go ahead and provide a link to John Wooden saying that. John Wooden liked team basketball, like all the great minds. Kobe is the antithesis of that.
You might be confusing GOAT with "my favorite top 10 player"
Not going to waste my time substantiating what has already been reiterated on these forums in various goat discussion threads. you have to do your own research. But yes John wooden stated it, and made similar statements along those lines.
I don't believe John Wooden ever said anything to the effect: Kobe Bryant is the greatest basketball player I've ever seen. There is just no way that that is true. I don't even have to research it. _________________ Championships since NBA/ABA merger in '76: Lakers 10 - Celtics 5 - Clippers 0 --- Phil Jackson 10 - Doc Rivers 1
About the 30 second mark, man talking to Simmons says John Wooden told him that Kobe is the best he's seen. It's secondhand information so we don't have an actual quote from Wooden himself, but there it is.
Kobe is an embrassment now please retire before you hurt your amazing legacy anymore.
This isn't hurting him at all. Kobe is a basketball historian, he knows how this works. After he retires, no one is going to be talking about how dismal shooting percentage in his final years. They'll be marveling at the fact that he was among the scoring leaders at an advanced age after serious injuries. The downsides of players tend to be forgotten over time.
The thing is basketball historiography has changed, and understanding of advanced metrics is becoming more and more pervasive. This Lakers season will go down in history much as it is being described by the stat geeks now: an example of how not to coach an offense in the modern era. Never again will a player lead the league in usage and shoot so poorly, with a TS% below the average for every team in the league. People will look at Kobe's season this year, and at some of Iverson's seasons, and say: "Wow! It's incredible that those seasons could happen in this century. What were they thinking? These stats are hardly rocket science!"
this is well said and a underrated point. I wonder how history will judge Kobe as time goes on and statistical approach to basketball analysis become the central narrative. Advanced statistics is not kind to Kobe unfortunately
Kobe pre achilles injury had phenomenal advanced stats.
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