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audioaxes
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Joined: 26 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Hammett wrote: | | Treble Clef wrote: | | laker4life wrote: | Since the Mike Brown fiasco, I always felt that this would eventually become a problem.
It simply became worse with the hiring of MDA.
Players, systems, organizations, etc are creatures of habits. If the previous habits and systems were successful, you have to ask why change?
Well in this case, Jim Buss wanted to likely create his own legacy and brought in MDA to try to bring in showtime.
Result= Lakers is swept 4-0, did not make playoffs last year and will not make it again this year.
Basically, it has been pretty bad.
Kobe is speaking the truth. He misses Phil and Gasol because he had a good thing with these players. We WILL NOT to win every year but at least we compete and have a chance. And if we are lucky, we make the finals.
Kobe deserved to have that chance. Unfortunately the FO did not have foresight to understand it. |
In 2011, the Lakers were swept 4-0 and Phil voluntarily retired. Something he had wanted to do the previous year but was talked out of it. The team was aging, Phil quit, and we are blaming the front office for not sticking to what was working??! |
Yep, and lots of people were calling for Phil's head. He was over the hill, triangle sucked, needed some fresh blood.
People got their wish, and now we're on our 3rd head coach in a short span. |
Phil would not have saved this team. People forget we sucked during Phil's last year here. You can even argue Mike Brown did more with a weaker team. |
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ppineda
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Joined: 12 Aug 2003
Posts: 701
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| dmorans1 wrote: | | Fact is San Antonio hasn't used their cap space at all. When was the last time they sign a player without Bird rights to a contract above the MLE? Most of their players have been drafted or signed to very small contracts. Yeah they haven't done (bleep) with cap space so those paycuts their stars have taken have not made the team better. It has all been so that the owner saves a penny here and there. |
Well, this isn't true. They tried to go over capspace to get players and nothing really panned out. San Antonio isn't stupid enough to go into the red for no reason. When they think they have a great shot they go over. Richard Jefferson is a great example they went well over salary cap to get him, it didn't pan out. But they tried and stayed over the cap until they released Stephen Jackson they were over the cap. |
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ppineda
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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| pjiddy wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | There is no one with Phil's disposition. His coaching tree so far is a huge failure. |
Popovich's coaching tree hasn't really stood much out either.
Avery Johnson, Mike Brown, PJ Carlesimo, Vinny Del Negro, Mike Budenholzer, Monty Williams, Jaque Vaughn...(am i forgetting anyone)?
Avery and Brown at least have some conference championships between them, both both are no longer coaching. PJ Carlesimo got choked by his own player. Monty and Budenholzer are well regarded around the league, but neither have accomplished anything. |
Well, Steve Kerr is a part of the tree -even though he didn't have an official coaching capacity as a Spur. And that guy who "coaches" the Sixers is from the Spurs too. I wouldn't could PJ Carlesimo, he was established as a coach before he came to the Spurs. |
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laker84
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 3:36 am Post subject: |
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| If there were some way that Jerry West could have mended fences with Phil Jackson back in 2000 and stayed on with the Lakers as GM, maybe things would have been a little more stable. |
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:18 am Post subject: |
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| laker4life wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | The Lakers absolutely cannot trot out another garbage production next season. This hopefully is the last season of placeholders. The team has deep equity with its fan base but having three historically bad years will erode some of that equity. But the team needs to be patient this year and not blow it's chances to get a top pick and have cap space this summer. Really crucial offseason coming up. This will set the tone for post kobe which will be here one day. |
Depends what you define as "garbage".
These are no longer "Jerry" Lakers.
These are "Jimbo" Lakers. Anything can happen. |
Assuming a bottom 5 finish (can't remember when the lakers were this bad back to back) if the team in 2015 is garbage too you're talking about a major calamity brewing.
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Tagurt
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Joined: 03 Jun 2012
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:15 am Post subject: |
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| You want stability? How about taking a paycut, keep your ego in check, and stop telling management to trade the entire team for roster improvement when things aren't going well? Kobe doesn't seem to realize that the world usually operates on a give and take basis. |
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Treble Clef
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Joined: 20 Nov 2012
Posts: 23913
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| audioaxes wrote: | | Hammett wrote: | | Treble Clef wrote: | | laker4life wrote: | Since the Mike Brown fiasco, I always felt that this would eventually become a problem.
It simply became worse with the hiring of MDA.
Players, systems, organizations, etc are creatures of habits. If the previous habits and systems were successful, you have to ask why change?
Well in this case, Jim Buss wanted to likely create his own legacy and brought in MDA to try to bring in showtime.
Result= Lakers is swept 4-0, did not make playoffs last year and will not make it again this year.
Basically, it has been pretty bad.
Kobe is speaking the truth. He misses Phil and Gasol because he had a good thing with these players. We WILL NOT to win every year but at least we compete and have a chance. And if we are lucky, we make the finals.
Kobe deserved to have that chance. Unfortunately the FO did not have foresight to understand it. |
In 2011, the Lakers were swept 4-0 and Phil voluntarily retired. Something he had wanted to do the previous year but was talked out of it. The team was aging, Phil quit, and we are blaming the front office for not sticking to what was working??! |
Yep, and lots of people were calling for Phil's head. He was over the hill, triangle sucked, needed some fresh blood.
People got their wish, and now we're on our 3rd head coach in a short span. |
Phil would not have saved this team. People forget we sucked during Phil's last year here. You can even argue Mike Brown did more with a weaker team. |
This is how I have always felt. I see a lot of people defending Phil that year by saying the players had tuned him out. I see that as more of a slam than a defense. It also makes it harder to believe that he would have found instant success with an almost entirely new roster a couple years later.
Phil was a pipe dream from the beginning. He was retired and had gone on record many times to say he was done. When the situation presented itself, he was somewhat intrigued but in his own words, he was only seeing it as a 1 year thing.
People are still talking as if Phil, Dwight, etc would all still be here. Phil wanted to put one of his own people in charge like Shaw or Rambis (I would argue that was his only interest from the beginning). Dwight's only interest in staying was if Kobe was minimized or even amnestied. Neither was going to happen under Phil. Kobe was playing well and the fans were all picking Kobe over Dwight at that time. |
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dabask11
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Joined: 27 Dec 2012
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| Tagurt wrote: | | You want stability? How about taking a paycut, keep your ego in check, and stop telling management to trade the entire team for roster improvement when things aren't going well? Kobe doesn't seem to realize that the world usually operates on a give and take basis. |
Exactly.
He chose the money so he gets no sympathy votes for his current situation. |
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LaZonaImagery
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Joined: 15 Jun 2013
Posts: 85
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 10:15 am Post subject: |
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| Tagurt wrote: | | You want stability? How about taking a paycut, keep your ego in check, and stop telling management to trade the entire team for roster improvement when things aren't going well? Kobe doesn't seem to realize that the world usually operates on a give and take basis. |
I agree with this analysis. |
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DimesnD
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| audioaxes wrote: |
Phil would not have saved this team. People forget we sucked during Phil's last year here. You can even argue Mike Brown did more with a weaker team. |
Phil wouldn't have to save this team. What he needed to do was save the Team Mike Brown didn't know how to use. Mike Brown needed a PG to make his system work, Phil didn't.
Saving that Mike Brown team would have meant keeping Dwight and Pau with Kobe, entirely a different set of talent.
After saving that MB team, it would have been easier for him to move into the FO and select his successor (Kerr, Fisher) and depending on Kobe's contract (Phil would likely have convinced him to take less) Melo would be here with Pau goes for the MLE. Howard(20)/Pau(5)/Melo (18)/Kobe(18) = 61 That's the power of the guru who offers up rings.
With that core, I think they coulda had Farmar to be a starter for the min. |
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wolfpaclaker
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Joined: 29 May 2002
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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I found some of Dwight's recent comments interesting regarding his time in LA about Kobe. As in that b4 he got to LA he was told that it would be his tea m to lead moving forward and KB himself wanted DH to take the reigns forward. And that once it actually came down to doing that Kobe said hell no this is my ship and really turned on DH.
It's relevant that the one major talent LA got for Kobe to help him his final years Kobe basically gave a gigantic FU too. Now Kobe's a legend and Dwight was a diva but as some have said - I highly doubt Duncan has that issue with Dwight. Duncan has let guys like Parker and even Leonard shine bright ahead of him. I think Kobe wants to win but with him in Jordan role above all else. He has no interest in playing a Pippen role again on O (which is what he should do or should have if he wanted to win like Spurs are).
The problem is not just that Phil left or we made horrible coaching hires. It's also Kobe. And I've got no hard feelings against Kobe about it because that's just his personality. MJ in Washington was the same. He wouldn't let Stackhouse or Rip Hamilton take more shots or take over. Even though at that point they were probably better options to be #1 and MJ #2. |
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LakerLogic
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Joined: 27 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Losing Dwight put this team 5 years back. I'm not his biggest fan but he is still a great #2 with great defense. Kobe was in denial about his decline and that has cost the Lakers. |
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_#1_
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Joined: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 4752
Location: Next door to 24
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerLogic wrote: | | Losing Dwight put this team 5 years back. I'm not his biggest fan but he is still a great #2 with great defense. Kobe was in denial about his decline and that has cost the Lakers. |
If even you hated Dwight, get him traded either before or after resigning. Golden State was willing to give the farm and they were only the first in line. Hell, even Pau had market value if you didn't keep him. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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Haven't we all learned after watching kobe for 19 years? He always wants to be the #1 player no matter what (he was clutch closing the 2008 Olympics too). It's what's driven him to the top of the game but not so great a trait as he ages.
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P.K.
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Joined: 10 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | I found some of Dwight's recent comments interesting regarding his time in LA about Kobe. As in that b4 he got to LA he was told that it would be his tea m to lead moving forward and KB himself wanted DH to take the reigns forward. And that once it actually came down to doing that Kobe said hell no this is my ship and really turned on DH.
It's relevant that the one major talent LA got for Kobe to help him his final years Kobe basically gave a gigantic FU too. Now Kobe's a legend and Dwight was a diva but as some have said - I highly doubt Duncan has that issue with Dwight. Duncan has let guys like Parker and even Leonard shine bright ahead of him. I think Kobe wants to win but with him in Jordan role above all else. He has no interest in playing a Pippen role again on O (which is what he should do or should have if he wanted to win like Spurs are).
The problem is not just that Phil left or we made horrible coaching hires. It's also Kobe. And I've got no hard feelings against Kobe about it because that's just his personality. MJ in Washington was the same. He wouldn't let Stackhouse or Rip Hamilton take more shots or take over. Even though at that point they were probably better options to be #1 and MJ #2. |
Apropos of nothing: have you seen DH play much this year? He's dominating again, at least so far
21ppg,12rpg, 2.8blks
Houston said he was still recovering some last season...but this offseason, Hakeem said he'd been working with DH and expected him to be a monster...so far, looks like Hakeem's right
I'd take Davis over DH, given a choice...but considering his play now, LAL losing DH hurts
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Wilt's unstoppable fadeaway: www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O9MgNfcGJA
NPZ's Magic Johnson mix: www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI |
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Andre2K
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Joined: 28 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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The FO's biggest mistake was not trading Dwight before the trade deadline when they had the chance to. Steven A already warned that Dwight would not resign if they don't trade him, but the FO thought he would sign here just because they are the lakers, they couldn't be more wrong. Just to think we could've had David Lee, Klay Thompson/Harrison Barnes plus draft picks...Jimmy and Mitch dropped the ball big time.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Sniper008 wrote: | | The FO's biggest mistake was not trading Dwight before the trade deadline when they had the chance to. Steven A already warned that Dwight would not resign if they don't trade him, but the FO thought he would sign here just because they are the lakers, they couldn't be more wrong. Just to think we could've had David Lee, Klay Thompson/Harrison Barnes plus draft picks...Jimmy and Mitch dropped the ball big time. |
By that time very few GMs willing to give up so many assets for a possible 2 month rental.
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Andre2K
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Sniper008 wrote: | | The FO's biggest mistake was not trading Dwight before the trade deadline when they had the chance to. Steven A already warned that Dwight would not resign if they don't trade him, but the FO thought he would sign here just because they are the lakers, they couldn't be more wrong. Just to think we could've had David Lee, Klay Thompson/Harrison Barnes plus draft picks...Jimmy and Mitch dropped the ball big time. |
By that time very few GMs willing to give up so many assets for a possible 2 month rental. |
Golden state was willing to do it, they probably wouldn't give up Klay but they were willing to part with David Lee and Harrison Barnes for Dwight, but as always if Mitch isn't fleecing the trading partner he isn't making the deal
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ContagiousInspiration
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Location: Boulder ;)
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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Would like to compare supporting casts over their careers please
Kobe had a much tougher career IMHO..
Derek fisher vs ginobli or parker...
When did Duncan have scrubs as starters?
Did Duncan ever have to deal with dramatic coaching changes repeatedly? He never had scrubs as coaches either? |
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Sniper008 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Sniper008 wrote: | | The FO's biggest mistake was not trading Dwight before the trade deadline when they had the chance to. Steven A already warned that Dwight would not resign if they don't trade him, but the FO thought he would sign here just because they are the lakers, they couldn't be more wrong. Just to think we could've had David Lee, Klay Thompson/Harrison Barnes plus draft picks...Jimmy and Mitch dropped the ball big time. |
By that time very few GMs willing to give up so many assets for a possible 2 month rental. |
Golden state was willing to do it, they probably wouldn't give up Klay but they were willing to part with David Lee and Harrison Barnes for Dwight, but as always if Mitch isn't fleecing the trading partner he isn't making the deal |
At the deadline? And I can see why the FO thought (hubris or not) that they could convince dwight to change his mind.
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Andre2K
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Sniper008 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Sniper008 wrote: | | The FO's biggest mistake was not trading Dwight before the trade deadline when they had the chance to. Steven A already warned that Dwight would not resign if they don't trade him, but the FO thought he would sign here just because they are the lakers, they couldn't be more wrong. Just to think we could've had David Lee, Klay Thompson/Harrison Barnes plus draft picks...Jimmy and Mitch dropped the ball big time. |
By that time very few GMs willing to give up so many assets for a possible 2 month rental. |
Golden state was willing to do it, they probably wouldn't give up Klay but they were willing to part with David Lee and Harrison Barnes for Dwight, but as always if Mitch isn't fleecing the trading partner he isn't making the deal |
At the deadline? And I can see why the FO thought (hubris or not) that they could convince dwight to change his mind. |
Yeah like #STAY! right can't believe Dwight wasn't convinced
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NBAFAN24
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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Stop saying it's the Spurs system. That system works because their players put their egos aside, made sacrifices in terms of, individual numbers, minutes, role, etc, in order to win. Duncan is really the most unselfish superstar of this era. He's willing to win at all costs and has sacrificed individual numbers in doing so. He doesn't care about winning as "The Man", he just cares about willing to make any sacrifices to give his team the best chance to win and be relevant for years. Kobe cares about winning as long as he's the reason why. We all know he cares about winning, but he's not willing to make the type of sacrifices that Duncan has made.
Kobe's ego is what made him so great, but it's also what made him hard to play with. Not everyone can play in the Spurs system. You have to be willing to sacrifice individual numbers to play in a system like that and Kobe wouldn't be happy in a limited role or if another guy on the team would put up better numbers than him. |
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| ContagiousInspiration wrote: | Would like to compare supporting casts over their careers please
Kobe had a much tougher career IMHO..
Derek fisher vs ginobli or parker...
When did Duncan have scrubs as starters?
Did Duncan ever have to deal with dramatic coaching changes repeatedly? He never had scrubs as coaches either? |
I'm pretty sure Avery Johnson would have been crucified here.
They've never had to fire a coach to appease Duncan either, unless you think Phil leaving after 2004 was just a total coincidence.
Last edited by greenfrog on Sat Nov 15, 2014 8:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Dreamshake
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Joined: 05 May 2006
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| ContagiousInspiration wrote: | Would like to compare supporting casts over their careers please
Kobe had a much tougher career IMHO..
Derek fisher vs ginobli or parker...
When did Duncan have scrubs as starters?
Did Duncan ever have to deal with dramatic coaching changes repeatedly? He never had scrubs as coaches either? |
Duncan never played with anyone as good as Shaq and Gasol is just as good as any teammate Duncan has ever had, aside from Robinson in the 90's.
And plenty of subpar starters have played alongside Duncan. See Avery Johnson or some of the bigs to start alongside him after Robinson retired. |
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kobeandgary
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 8:49 pm Post subject: Re: Kobe Bryant admits he’s “jealous” of Tim Duncan’s stability in San Antonio (from article entitled: kobe-bryant-tim-duncan-on-different-paths-to-greatness-share-same-competitive-fire) |
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it will always be my humble opinion that superstars taking less money to stack teams is a weak way of winning, Kobe has managed to win 5 rings with never having to do that, very amazing in my eyes. |
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