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Omar Little Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90306 Location: Formerly Known As 24
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Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 8:16 am Post subject: |
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I have a suspicion that these stats are basically based off the shot chart if the opposing players at the same position when on court, and given how help schemes and offensive schemes work, only give you vague information at best. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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MJST Retired Number
Joined: 06 Jul 2014 Posts: 26309
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tox Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2015 Posts: 17876
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Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 10:53 am Post subject: |
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GoldenThroat wrote: | tox wrote: | ^ I wonder how much of Clarkson's poor #s within 10 feet is because his standing reach is pretty short. Hard to affect shots in the paint like that. |
I wonder how well that stat assigns responsibility in the first place. | I honestly assumed it just works on the guy you're matched up with. It'd obviously be noisy since there's a giant team component, but in this case I can see how Clarkson's lack of length factors in. |
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epak Retired Number
Joined: 30 Aug 2005 Posts: 34147
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KeepItRealOrElse Retired Number
Joined: 11 Oct 2012 Posts: 32767
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Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 10:31 am Post subject: |
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https://vine.co/v/5h1U29mDaa3 here's that pull back move you guys want Clarkson to use more! Kyrie. Even tho the YouTube example guy didn't get low enough! I remember my friend used to pull this move on me in 8th grade in 2005, just stop on a dime, always got me |
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justsomelakerfan Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Jul 2016 Posts: 10939
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Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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I'm a big, big Clarkson believer. I don't want to trade him at all. I remembered today an old tweet by @HPBasketball who is such a frustrating follow as a Laker fan but I just can't just look away. He tweeted this comp back a couple months ago before free agency started, arguing in favor of JC's value.
1, 2, 3....
[DAMNING STATS AHEAD]
This also shows something that's been discussed, which is that JC's game will really open up if he gets to the line more often.
however JC played in more blowouts but shhh just let it happen |
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defense Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jan 2010 Posts: 39445
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Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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justsomelakerfan wrote: | I'm a big, big Clarkson believer. I don't want to trade him at all. I remembered today an old tweet by @HPBasketball who is such a frustrating follow as a Laker fan but I just can't just look away. He tweeted this comp back a couple months ago before free agency started, arguing in favor of JC's value.
1, 2, 3....
[DAMNING STATS AHEAD]
This also shows something that's been discussed, which is that JC's game will really open up if he gets to the line more often.
however JC played in more blowouts but shhh just let it happen |
I rarely hear anyone worried about Clarkson's offense. I think most people would agree that he is going to be a very good offensive player. The questions mostly come about defense and whether or not he can help the team get stops when the game is on the line. |
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justsomelakerfan Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Jul 2016 Posts: 10939
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Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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defense wrote: | justsomelakerfan wrote: | I'm a big, big Clarkson believer. I don't want to trade him at all. I remembered today an old tweet by @HPBasketball who is such a frustrating follow as a Laker fan but I just can't just look away. He tweeted this comp back a couple months ago before free agency started, arguing in favor of JC's value.
1, 2, 3....
[DAMNING STATS AHEAD]
This also shows something that's been discussed, which is that JC's game will really open up if he gets to the line more often.
however JC played in more blowouts but shhh just let it happen |
I rarely hear anyone worried about Clarkson's offense. I think most people would agree that he is going to be a very good offensive player. The questions mostly come about defense and whether or not he can help the team get stops when the game is on the line. |
100%. However, DeRozan's far from a lockdown defender (but I haven't looked at his #'s). With the right defensive supporting cast JC could still flourish as a starter. I think because of his poor defense, his strengths (and potential strengths) aren't rated as highly as they should be.
No question his defense has been terrible. I hope he improves. I just don't think it'll limit him so much to a 6th man role, at least not this early in his career. When he's closer to 30 than 20, from my untrained eyeballs, then I project he could be a Jamal Crawford type (not saying he's at that point now, just that he could fit that model of player). |
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defense Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jan 2010 Posts: 39445
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Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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justsomelakerfan wrote: | defense wrote: | justsomelakerfan wrote: | I'm a big, big Clarkson believer. I don't want to trade him at all. I remembered today an old tweet by @HPBasketball who is such a frustrating follow as a Laker fan but I just can't just look away. He tweeted this comp back a couple months ago before free agency started, arguing in favor of JC's value.
1, 2, 3....
[DAMNING STATS AHEAD]
This also shows something that's been discussed, which is that JC's game will really open up if he gets to the line more often.
however JC played in more blowouts but shhh just let it happen |
I rarely hear anyone worried about Clarkson's offense. I think most people would agree that he is going to be a very good offensive player. The questions mostly come about defense and whether or not he can help the team get stops when the game is on the line. |
100%. However, DeRozan's far from a lockdown defender (but I haven't looked at his #'s). With the right defensive supporting cast JC could still flourish as a starter. I think because of his poor defense, his strengths (and potential strengths) aren't rated as highly as they should be.
No question his defense has been terrible. I hope he improves. I just don't think it'll limit him so much to a 6th man role, at least not this early in his career. When he's closer to 30 than 20, from my untrained eyeballs, then I project he could be a Jamal Crawford type (not saying he's at that point now, just that he could fit that model of player). |
If we want to win more games it matters. Deng and Mosgov will help him this season but he's got to make some defensive plays. Not saying he has to be lock down. He just needs to make his presence felt. Last season guys were destroying out back court. That can't happen if we expect to win much less make the playoffs. |
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justsomelakerfan Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Jul 2016 Posts: 10939
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Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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defense wrote: | justsomelakerfan wrote: | defense wrote: | justsomelakerfan wrote: | I'm a big, big Clarkson believer. I don't want to trade him at all. I remembered today an old tweet by @HPBasketball who is such a frustrating follow as a Laker fan but I just can't just look away. He tweeted this comp back a couple months ago before free agency started, arguing in favor of JC's value.
1, 2, 3....
[DAMNING STATS AHEAD]
This also shows something that's been discussed, which is that JC's game will really open up if he gets to the line more often.
however JC played in more blowouts but shhh just let it happen |
I rarely hear anyone worried about Clarkson's offense. I think most people would agree that he is going to be a very good offensive player. The questions mostly come about defense and whether or not he can help the team get stops when the game is on the line. |
100%. However, DeRozan's far from a lockdown defender (but I haven't looked at his #'s). With the right defensive supporting cast JC could still flourish as a starter. I think because of his poor defense, his strengths (and potential strengths) aren't rated as highly as they should be.
No question his defense has been terrible. I hope he improves. I just don't think it'll limit him so much to a 6th man role, at least not this early in his career. When he's closer to 30 than 20, from my untrained eyeballs, then I project he could be a Jamal Crawford type (not saying he's at that point now, just that he could fit that model of player). |
If we want to win more games it matters. Deng and Mosgov will help him this season but he's got to make some defensive plays. Not saying he has to be lock down. He just needs to make his presence felt. Last season guys were destroying out back court. That can't happen if we expect to win much less make the playoffs. |
Totally. I still hold that it won't wreck his early career as a starter if he doesn't improve as a defender too much. Of course, that's not my hope for him as a player, for him to NOT improve. I'm just exploring the scenario where he doesn't improve a lot, which happens fairly often with players addressing their weaknesses.
I'd really like to look into comparing some defensive stats with JC and some other starting 2 guards, I wonder how he compared last season. Probably not well, but I'd like to know the differential. |
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KeepItRealOrElse Retired Number
Joined: 11 Oct 2012 Posts: 32767
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Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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I think JC has a legit chance to be as beneficial of a player as Demar, or very very close to it. He won't put up the same gaudy scoring stats, but he'll shoot better from 3 and be less of an ISO-centric eye gouging exhibit.
edit: on 2nd thought: his team did make it to the ECF and have a great regular season.... maybe Demar isn't overrated.. |
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defense Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jan 2010 Posts: 39445
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Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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justsomelakerfan wrote: | defense wrote: | justsomelakerfan wrote: | defense wrote: | justsomelakerfan wrote: | I'm a big, big Clarkson believer. I don't want to trade him at all. I remembered today an old tweet by @HPBasketball who is such a frustrating follow as a Laker fan but I just can't just look away. He tweeted this comp back a couple months ago before free agency started, arguing in favor of JC's value.
1, 2, 3....
[DAMNING STATS AHEAD]
This also shows something that's been discussed, which is that JC's game will really open up if he gets to the line more often.
however JC played in more blowouts but shhh just let it happen |
I rarely hear anyone worried about Clarkson's offense. I think most people would agree that he is going to be a very good offensive player. The questions mostly come about defense and whether or not he can help the team get stops when the game is on the line. |
100%. However, DeRozan's far from a lockdown defender (but I haven't looked at his #'s). With the right defensive supporting cast JC could still flourish as a starter. I think because of his poor defense, his strengths (and potential strengths) aren't rated as highly as they should be.
No question his defense has been terrible. I hope he improves. I just don't think it'll limit him so much to a 6th man role, at least not this early in his career. When he's closer to 30 than 20, from my untrained eyeballs, then I project he could be a Jamal Crawford type (not saying he's at that point now, just that he could fit that model of player). |
If we want to win more games it matters. Deng and Mosgov will help him this season but he's got to make some defensive plays. Not saying he has to be lock down. He just needs to make his presence felt. Last season guys were destroying out back court. That can't happen if we expect to win much less make the playoffs. |
Totally. I still hold that it won't wreck his early career as a starter if he doesn't improve as a defender too much. Of course, that's not my hope for him as a player, for him to NOT improve. I'm just exploring the scenario where he doesn't improve a lot, which happens fairly often with players addressing their weaknesses.
I'd really like to look into comparing some defensive stats with JC and some other starting 2 guards, I wonder how he compared last season. Probably not well, but I'd like to know the differential. |
I'm thinking more long term. If and when we become competitive. I can't speak on Derozan's defense because I don't watch the Raptors much. I can say however that his 6'7 frame alone helps him to not be abused on defense. Last season I found myself constantly shaking my head at how guys were disrespecting Clarkson's defense. It's like they couldn't wait to go at him. If you have any defensive stats throw them out lets see what they look like... |
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KeepItRealOrElse Retired Number
Joined: 11 Oct 2012 Posts: 32767
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Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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defense wrote: | justsomelakerfan wrote: | defense wrote: | justsomelakerfan wrote: | defense wrote: | justsomelakerfan wrote: | I'm a big, big Clarkson believer. I don't want to trade him at all. I remembered today an old tweet by @HPBasketball who is such a frustrating follow as a Laker fan but I just can't just look away. He tweeted this comp back a couple months ago before free agency started, arguing in favor of JC's value.
1, 2, 3....
[DAMNING STATS AHEAD]
This also shows something that's been discussed, which is that JC's game will really open up if he gets to the line more often.
however JC played in more blowouts but shhh just let it happen |
I rarely hear anyone worried about Clarkson's offense. I think most people would agree that he is going to be a very good offensive player. The questions mostly come about defense and whether or not he can help the team get stops when the game is on the line. |
100%. However, DeRozan's far from a lockdown defender (but I haven't looked at his #'s). With the right defensive supporting cast JC could still flourish as a starter. I think because of his poor defense, his strengths (and potential strengths) aren't rated as highly as they should be.
No question his defense has been terrible. I hope he improves. I just don't think it'll limit him so much to a 6th man role, at least not this early in his career. When he's closer to 30 than 20, from my untrained eyeballs, then I project he could be a Jamal Crawford type (not saying he's at that point now, just that he could fit that model of player). |
If we want to win more games it matters. Deng and Mosgov will help him this season but he's got to make some defensive plays. Not saying he has to be lock down. He just needs to make his presence felt. Last season guys were destroying out back court. That can't happen if we expect to win much less make the playoffs. |
Totally. I still hold that it won't wreck his early career as a starter if he doesn't improve as a defender too much. Of course, that's not my hope for him as a player, for him to NOT improve. I'm just exploring the scenario where he doesn't improve a lot, which happens fairly often with players addressing their weaknesses.
I'd really like to look into comparing some defensive stats with JC and some other starting 2 guards, I wonder how he compared last season. Probably not well, but I'd like to know the differential. |
I'm thinking more long term. If and when we become competitive. I can't speak on Derozan's defense because I don't watch the Raptors much. I can say however that his 6'7 frame alone helps him to not be abused on defense. Last season I found myself constantly shaking my head at how guys were disrespecting Clarkson's defense. It's like they couldn't wait to go at him. If you have any defensive stats throw them out lets see what they look like... |
yea, Clarkson is 6'4.5 with a low standing reach, someone any SG would deem enticing to shoot over. |
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kikanga Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29280 Location: La La Land
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Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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defense wrote: |
If we want to win more games it matters. Deng and Mosgov will help him this season but he's got to make some defensive plays. Not saying he has to be lock down. He just needs to make his presence felt. Last season guys were destroying out back court. That can't happen if we expect to win much less make the playoffs. |
2 thoughts come to mind.
1) He chose to guard the best opposing guard more often than not last season. So he became the poster child for a team whose defense as a whole was horrible. Brandon Bass was our best two-way player
2) Improving his defense doesn't seem like a hard task IMO. It's not like he doesn't have the physical gifts to be a good defender. He just plays too much differential defense.. I remember last year, for example, he'd be up in Lowry's chest past the 3pt line. Like he's going to rip Lowry consistently.
He needs to just focus more on positional defense. Stay between man and hoop on ball. And off-ball as well. No need to try to over commit playing the passing lanes.
His defense in the P&R last year was bad. But so was everybody's. That was a systemic problem bigger than him. Half the time, the bigs wouldn't even tell the guards what direction the screen was coming from. Which is just step 1a to good P&R defense. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
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defense Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jan 2010 Posts: 39445
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Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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kikanga wrote: | defense wrote: |
If we want to win more games it matters. Deng and Mosgov will help him this season but he's got to make some defensive plays. Not saying he has to be lock down. He just needs to make his presence felt. Last season guys were destroying out back court. That can't happen if we expect to win much less make the playoffs. |
2 thoughts come to mind.
1) He chose to guard the best opposing guard more often than not last season. So he became the poster child for a team whose defense as a whole was horrible. Brandon Bass was our best two-way player
2) Improving his defense doesn't seem like a hard task IMO. It's not like he doesn't have the physical gifts to be a good defender. He just plays too much differential defense.. I remember last year, for example, he'd be up in Lowry's chest past the 3pt line. Like he's going to rip Lowry consistently.
He needs to just focus more on positional defense. Stay between man and hoop on ball. And off-ball as well. No need to try to over commit playing the passing lanes.
His defense in the P&R last year was bad. But so was everybody's. That was a systemic problem bigger than him. Half the time, the bigs wouldn't even tell the guards what direction the screen was coming from. Which is just step 1a to good P&R defense. |
If he can do this consistently I think it will help the team immensely.
Last edited by defense on Sat Aug 20, 2016 4:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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defense Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jan 2010 Posts: 39445
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Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | defense wrote: | justsomelakerfan wrote: | defense wrote: | justsomelakerfan wrote: | defense wrote: | justsomelakerfan wrote: | I'm a big, big Clarkson believer. I don't want to trade him at all. I remembered today an old tweet by @HPBasketball who is such a frustrating follow as a Laker fan but I just can't just look away. He tweeted this comp back a couple months ago before free agency started, arguing in favor of JC's value.
1, 2, 3....
[DAMNING STATS AHEAD]
This also shows something that's been discussed, which is that JC's game will really open up if he gets to the line more often.
however JC played in more blowouts but shhh just let it happen |
I rarely hear anyone worried about Clarkson's offense. I think most people would agree that he is going to be a very good offensive player. The questions mostly come about defense and whether or not he can help the team get stops when the game is on the line. |
100%. However, DeRozan's far from a lockdown defender (but I haven't looked at his #'s). With the right defensive supporting cast JC could still flourish as a starter. I think because of his poor defense, his strengths (and potential strengths) aren't rated as highly as they should be.
No question his defense has been terrible. I hope he improves. I just don't think it'll limit him so much to a 6th man role, at least not this early in his career. When he's closer to 30 than 20, from my untrained eyeballs, then I project he could be a Jamal Crawford type (not saying he's at that point now, just that he could fit that model of player). |
If we want to win more games it matters. Deng and Mosgov will help him this season but he's got to make some defensive plays. Not saying he has to be lock down. He just needs to make his presence felt. Last season guys were destroying out back court. That can't happen if we expect to win much less make the playoffs. |
Totally. I still hold that it won't wreck his early career as a starter if he doesn't improve as a defender too much. Of course, that's not my hope for him as a player, for him to NOT improve. I'm just exploring the scenario where he doesn't improve a lot, which happens fairly often with players addressing their weaknesses.
I'd really like to look into comparing some defensive stats with JC and some other starting 2 guards, I wonder how he compared last season. Probably not well, but I'd like to know the differential. |
I'm thinking more long term. If and when we become competitive. I can't speak on Derozan's defense because I don't watch the Raptors much. I can say however that his 6'7 frame alone helps him to not be abused on defense. Last season I found myself constantly shaking my head at how guys were disrespecting Clarkson's defense. It's like they couldn't wait to go at him. If you have any defensive stats throw them out lets see what they look like... |
yea, Clarkson is 6'4.5 with a low standing reach, someone any SG would deem enticing to shoot over. |
That's the way I feel. |
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anpherknee Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Mar 2014 Posts: 16933
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0514 Star Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2012 Posts: 6309 Location: Fountain Valley
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Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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anpherknee wrote: | https://twitter.com/NBALakersNation/status/769266950224556032 |
Way too low. Should be at least an 80-83 but lets let JC do his thing |
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dood23 Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Jun 2010 Posts: 12084
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Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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0514 wrote: | anpherknee wrote: | https://twitter.com/NBALakersNation/status/769266950224556032 |
Way too low. Should be at least an 80-83 but lets let JC do his thing |
Right
but Embiid gets a 77 without playing a single game.
Hey, they're software developers, not basketball experts _________________ "There's only 2 dudes better than me, and I'm BOTH OF THEM." |
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tox Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2015 Posts: 17876
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Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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dood23 wrote: | 0514 wrote: | anpherknee wrote: | https://twitter.com/NBALakersNation/status/769266950224556032 |
Way too low. Should be at least an 80-83 but lets let JC do his thing |
Right
but Embiid gets a 77 without playing a single game.
Hey, they're software developers, not basketball experts |
Are you trying to imply you can't be both? |
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MJST Retired Number
Joined: 06 Jul 2014 Posts: 26309
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Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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Clarkson should be an 80 if Russell was a 79. If they're going off last year's performances. |
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dood23 Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Jun 2010 Posts: 12084
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Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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tox wrote: | dood23 wrote: | 0514 wrote: | anpherknee wrote: | https://twitter.com/NBALakersNation/status/769266950224556032 |
Way too low. Should be at least an 80-83 but lets let JC do his thing |
Right
but Embiid gets a 77 without playing a single game.
Hey, they're software developers, not basketball experts |
Are you trying to imply you can't be both? |
No.
Hint: I'm one of the above, and I'm definitely not a basketball expert _________________ "There's only 2 dudes better than me, and I'm BOTH OF THEM." |
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Vin Star Player
Joined: 03 Jan 2013 Posts: 6005 Location: France
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Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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Overalls discussions are pointless. It's about the individual ratings. |
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KeepItRealOrElse Retired Number
Joined: 11 Oct 2012 Posts: 32767
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Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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They probably put Clarksons defense lowww, and the low rating came from it |
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PICKnPOP Star Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2014 Posts: 5377
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Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | They probably put Clarksons defense lowww, and the low rating came from it |
Yup |
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