Has there ever been a Laker point guard that has played well with Kobe?
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KBH
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 6:07 am    Post subject:

Cancun Van Exel wrote:
Ossim wrote:
Also look at the PG's who played with Jordan: BJ Armstrong, Steve Kerr, Ron Harper, Bill Paxson. None of those guys initiated the offense. So if you think about it, the PG position when playing along guys like Bryant and Jordan consists of handing ball off to super star guard, and then camping in a spot to hit a 3.


This is true, yet we traded 2 #1 picks for a pick n roll PG, Nash. Then when that went (bleep) up, we traded for another pick n roll PG, Lin


We got a first round pick for Lin. Well worth it no matter what he does on the court.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:49 am    Post subject:

KBH wrote:
Cancun Van Exel wrote:
Ossim wrote:
Also look at the PG's who played with Jordan: BJ Armstrong, Steve Kerr, Ron Harper, Bill Paxson. None of those guys initiated the offense. So if you think about it, the PG position when playing along guys like Bryant and Jordan consists of handing ball off to super star guard, and then camping in a spot to hit a 3.


This is true, yet we traded 2 #1 picks for a pick n roll PG, Nash. Then when that went (bleep) up, we traded for another pick n roll PG, Lin


We got a first round pick for Lin. Well worth it no matter what he does on the court.


The pick is great but why not pick up a Patrick Beverly type to play with Kobe if Lin doesn't work this year? Someone who can handle the ball a little but can play defense and shoot. Too obvious for this FO, I guess. Also, if we're prioritizing acquiring assets (like HOU #1 pick) , why are we paying Kobe $24mil?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:00 am    Post subject:

Payton was a quality PG even at his age, He played all 82 that season man was suprised when they traded him for Chris Mihm who never did anything and was Injury prone

Payton should have been kept especially when we were rebuilding with Kobe + Butler the year removed from losing in the Finals
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:09 am    Post subject:

KBH wrote:
Cancun Van Exel wrote:
Ossim wrote:
Also look at the PG's who played with Jordan: BJ Armstrong, Steve Kerr, Ron Harper, Bill Paxson. None of those guys initiated the offense. So if you think about it, the PG position when playing along guys like Bryant and Jordan consists of handing ball off to super star guard, and then camping in a spot to hit a 3.


This is true, yet we traded 2 #1 picks for a pick n roll PG, Nash. Then when that went (bleep) up, we traded for another pick n roll PG, Lin


We got a first round pick for Lin. Well worth it no matter what he does on the court.


Lin needs to turn back into the scoring PG he was in NY and not try to force being a traditional, facilitating PG. Kobe, score and facilitate as well. Lin and Kobe, co-facilitators and scorers. Kobe needs to find Lin more, in the successful Clipper game (not a win but competitive) and Hornets game he did. Since Lin's handles get shaky under pressure and opposing coach's like to put their best defenders on him in stretches, the team should identify that and let Kobe have the ball but Kobe has to then facilitate. Lin facilitates better in the flow of offense, not setting it up and being a slave to the play called. In the off-season, wherever Lin goes, he has to work hard on his handles.

All-in-all I'd like to see Kobe shoot 18-25 times a game and Lin up his shooting to 12-20 times a game. Each should get to the line at least 6 times as well. And, if I were Byron, I'd ask each to give me 5 assists minimum per game but Byron doesn't feel a need to work on the offense. He needs to.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:22 am    Post subject:

Cancun Van Exel wrote:
KBH wrote:
Cancun Van Exel wrote:
Ossim wrote:
Also look at the PG's who played with Jordan: BJ Armstrong, Steve Kerr, Ron Harper, Bill Paxson. None of those guys initiated the offense. So if you think about it, the PG position when playing along guys like Bryant and Jordan consists of handing ball off to super star guard, and then camping in a spot to hit a 3.


This is true, yet we traded 2 #1 picks for a pick n roll PG, Nash. Then when that went (bleep) up, we traded for another pick n roll PG, Lin


We got a first round pick for Lin. Well worth it no matter what he does on the court.


The pick is great but why not pick up a Patrick Beverly type to play with Kobe if Lin doesn't work this year? Someone who can handle the ball a little but can play defense and shoot. Too obvious for this FO, I guess. Also, if we're prioritizing acquiring assets (like HOU #1 pick) , why are we paying Kobe $24mil?


1. Because Patrick Beverly wasn't available and the Rockets wouldn't give us a first round pick with him. The Lakers need to acquire assets to get back to where you want them to be. Which is winning titles. Lets say we got Beverly instead of Lin. Does that even make us 5-4 rather than 1-8? No. And for argument's sake let's say it does lead us to being 5-4 rather than 1-8. That would leave us fighting for the eighth seed in the west. Which means we would either be getting blasted in the first round by the top seed or out of the playoffs. First round exit and no picks to show for this season. What did we gain?

2. Lin can do all of the things you said when he's playing in a modern NBA offense with proper spacing. He did it in Houston and he did it in New York.

3. Why are we paying Kobe $24 million. The company line is rewarding their superstars, which has some truth to it. The other reasons are to sell tickets and keep TV ratings as well as having something of a selling point of playing with Kobe for the free agents we were swinging for (Lebron, Melo). After we missed on those guys, the FO switched gears to asset acquisition.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:31 am    Post subject:

Kobe brought this on to himself. he loves to dominate the ball, not only shooting but handling it up the court. don't tell me this who else gonna do that crap. we've had NBA caliber PGs throughout Kobe's tenure, when have you seen him consistently allowed PGs to do their jobs? i just don't understand player such as Kobe's caliber why can't he just setting on the high post and wait for the ball instead of dribbling against pressure from younger PGs nowadays to waste his energy, you meant to tell me Lin, Price can't even bring the ball upcourt? give me a break.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:31 am    Post subject:

You know who would have been really good next to Kobe? Prime Kirk Hinrich. The ideal PG next to Kobe would be one with size, strong shooting, tough defense, and decent court vision.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:49 am    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
You know who would have been really good next to Kobe? Prime Kirk Hinrich. The ideal PG next to Kobe would be one with size, strong shooting, tough defense, and decent court vision.


I was always a fan of Hinrich in Chicago. Most of us pined for him on here too. Played good D, can handle the ball, but can easily play off of it as well.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:00 am    Post subject:

Cancun Van Exel wrote:
DancingBarry wrote:
How many traditional PGs has Phil Jackson used for all his rings? He didn't need them with the triangle's two guard front.

The Lakers were able to invest heavily in other positions and use cheaper combo guards at the PG spot. Huge success doing this. Huge. However, whenever Phil left and another coach comes in we pay the price for not having a great PG to run the new system (see guys like Chucky Atkins). They are hard to acquire when you're over the cap as we've been for most of Kobe's career. Steve Blake, Sessions, etc are all we could afford. And even though we wanted to bring Blake back this offseason we couldn't because of our cap plans.

We had Kobe and Nash together briefly twice...and we run Princeton in both training camps. Then injuries hit. One of the very few who even had a chance to play outside of a two-guard front offense was Steve Blake who looked good beside Kobe and was effective in a traditional system. But not a lot of opportunities over the years to run a traditional offense or have the opportunity to get a PG. (Basketball reasons.)


Blake was good at the end of his contract but was terrible for the first two years. He looked scared of Kobe.


Blake has never struck me as a guy who is scared of anyone. In fact that's one of the reasons Kobe liked him when he was an opponent. He never backed down to Kobe. He struggled a bit in the triangle (but got better) and struggled with his weird ability to get fluke injuries/illnesses but he got better when we were out of that in more traditional systems.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:02 am    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
You know who would have been really good next to Kobe? Prime Kirk Hinrich. The ideal PG next to Kobe would be one with size, strong shooting, tough defense, and decent court vision.


Yup. I remember when we (us here on LG and other message boards) wanted to trade Odom for him.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:08 am    Post subject:

It can be difficult for two high-usage guys to play next to each other. PG's typically handle the ball a lot, yet Kobe needs to dominate the ball to be effective.

It's a challenge to play with a high-usage guy, period. Just look at how difficult it has been for the new Cavs to adjust to Kyrie Irving. The ball doesn't move.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:40 am    Post subject:

City_Dawg wrote:
55 wrote:
What does 2+2 equal? Excluding 4, name me the answer.


22, duh.


You called?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:40 am    Post subject:

Best PG? Kobe is the best PG for Kobe I suppose.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:41 am    Post subject:

troy wrote:
22 wrote:
pd24 wrote:
troy wrote:
evetssteve10 wrote:
Kobe has elevated just about every player he has ever played with - only Kobe could make smush Parker a PG on a playoff team. Dumb question


Really? Is he elevating Lin? Was Smush "elevated" enough to earn respect from the Laker fans, and earn a long term contract? How about Farmar? Sessions? Chucky Atkins? Anyone?

Of all of these PG's that couldn't play with Kobe, what one left the Lakers and played much better than he did in his time here? None..

This the real question. And we'll be waiting forever before someone answers it


You've already answered your own contention. The Lakers could never secure a decent PG because none would play with Kobe, or none could develop into quality players with Kobe screwing up the flow of the offense. Remember, and I keep saying this, Phil Jackson said that Kobe was uncoachable. Shaq despised playing with Kobe. No free agent came our way last off season, probably because of Kobe, and now Lin and Boozer are echoing what past Laker players are saying...it can't be one person hogging the ball and messing up the rhythm of the offense.

Perhaps you should stop hating on me and start hearing what actual players, analysis, and fans have been saying for years. And even Kobe himself said it...HE'S DIFFICULT TO PLAY WITH. His words, not mine.


This post is 100% BS and false.

Give 1 example of the bolded
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:42 am    Post subject:

KBH wrote:
Cancun Van Exel wrote:
Ossim wrote:
Also look at the PG's who played with Jordan: BJ Armstrong, Steve Kerr, Ron Harper, Bill Paxson. None of those guys initiated the offense. So if you think about it, the PG position when playing along guys like Bryant and Jordan consists of handing ball off to super star guard, and then camping in a spot to hit a 3.


This is true, yet we traded 2 #1 picks for a pick n roll PG, Nash. Then when that went (bleep) up, we traded for another pick n roll PG, Lin


We got a first round pick for Lin. Well worth it no matter what he does on the court.


First round pick and $8.3 mil in cap space after the season. Along with giving Lin the chance to earn a long term contract here. Win-win.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:43 am    Post subject:

Cancun Van Exel wrote:
KBH wrote:
Cancun Van Exel wrote:
Ossim wrote:
Also look at the PG's who played with Jordan: BJ Armstrong, Steve Kerr, Ron Harper, Bill Paxson. None of those guys initiated the offense. So if you think about it, the PG position when playing along guys like Bryant and Jordan consists of handing ball off to super star guard, and then camping in a spot to hit a 3.


This is true, yet we traded 2 #1 picks for a pick n roll PG, Nash. Then when that went (bleep) up, we traded for another pick n roll PG, Lin


We got a first round pick for Lin. Well worth it no matter what he does on the court.


The pick is great but why not pick up a Patrick Beverly type to play with Kobe if Lin doesn't work this year? Someone who can handle the ball a little but can play defense and shoot. Too obvious for this FO, I guess. Also, if we're prioritizing acquiring assets (like HOU #1 pick) , why are we paying Kobe $24mil?


I don't disagree with you, but who? Because the FO has to deal with actual players, not "types".
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:18 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
Cancun Van Exel wrote:
KBH wrote:
Cancun Van Exel wrote:
Ossim wrote:
Also look at the PG's who played with Jordan: BJ Armstrong, Steve Kerr, Ron Harper, Bill Paxson. None of those guys initiated the offense. So if you think about it, the PG position when playing along guys like Bryant and Jordan consists of handing ball off to super star guard, and then camping in a spot to hit a 3.


This is true, yet we traded 2 #1 picks for a pick n roll PG, Nash. Then when that went (bleep) up, we traded for another pick n roll PG, Lin


We got a first round pick for Lin. Well worth it no matter what he does on the court.


The pick is great but why not pick up a Patrick Beverly type to play with Kobe if Lin doesn't work this year? Someone who can handle the ball a little but can play defense and shoot. Too obvious for this FO, I guess. Also, if we're prioritizing acquiring assets (like HOU #1 pick) , why are we paying Kobe $24mil?


I don't disagree with you, but who? Because the FO has to deal with actual players, not "types".


There are 6'1" guys out there who can play D and shoot all over the world. Those aren't unique qualifications at all. Its their job to scour and find someone. Is that too much to ask?

Nobody knew who Patrick Beverly was a couple years ago but HOU dug him up and he fits perfectly with Harden. I don't know D league, euro or NCAA well enough at this point to give you a name. The irony is that we drafted Beverley for Miami haha.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:20 am    Post subject:

KBH wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
You know who would have been really good next to Kobe? Prime Kirk Hinrich. The ideal PG next to Kobe would be one with size, strong shooting, tough defense, and decent court vision.


I was always a fan of Hinrich in Chicago. Most of us pined for him on here too. Played good D, can handle the ball, but can easily play off of it as well.


He really fell off a cliff after 07-08, though. I wouldn't have traded Odom for him.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:26 am    Post subject:

KBH wrote:
Cancun Van Exel wrote:
KBH wrote:
Cancun Van Exel wrote:
Ossim wrote:
Also look at the PG's who played with Jordan: BJ Armstrong, Steve Kerr, Ron Harper, Bill Paxson. None of those guys initiated the offense. So if you think about it, the PG position when playing along guys like Bryant and Jordan consists of handing ball off to super star guard, and then camping in a spot to hit a 3.


This is true, yet we traded 2 #1 picks for a pick n roll PG, Nash. Then when that went (bleep) up, we traded for another pick n roll PG, Lin


We got a first round pick for Lin. Well worth it no matter what he does on the court.


The pick is great but why not pick up a Patrick Beverly type to play with Kobe if Lin doesn't work this year? Someone who can handle the ball a little but can play defense and shoot. Too obvious for this FO, I guess. Also, if we're prioritizing acquiring assets (like HOU #1 pick) , why are we paying Kobe $24mil?


1. Because Patrick Beverly wasn't available and the Rockets wouldn't give us a first round pick with him. The Lakers need to acquire assets to get back to where you want them to be. Which is winning titles. Lets say we got Beverly instead of Lin. Does that even make us 5-4 rather than 1-8? No. And for argument's sake let's say it does lead us to being 5-4 rather than 1-8. That would leave us fighting for the eighth seed in the west. Which means we would either be getting blasted in the first round by the top seed or out of the playoffs. First round exit and no picks to show for this season. What did we gain?

2. Lin can do all of the things you said when he's playing in a modern NBA offense with proper spacing. He did it in Houston and he did it in New York.

3. Why are we paying Kobe $24 million. The company line is rewarding their superstars, which has some truth to it. The other reasons are to sell tickets and keep TV ratings as well as having something of a selling point of playing with Kobe for the free agents we were swinging for (Lebron, Melo). After we missed on those guys, the FO switched gears to asset acquisition.


1. I said Patrick Beverley "type". they're readily available all over the European and D Leagues. Small defender with a shot.

2. That is my point. Lin doesn't fit with Kobe and that was easy to predict for everybody except our FO. Nash didn't fit either (if healthy).

3. fair enough but it was a big gamble to have this albatross of a contract on the books if we have to turn to rebuilding. it's a set back. the mistake was made when they prioritized a mid 30's star over a star still in his prime (Howard). We'd be re-tooling now, not rebuilding if that was handled properly. I'm not ok with the path we chose personally.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:28 am    Post subject:

This is why I did the post a month ago...and the majority of folks said a Chauncey Billups type of player who could hit the 3 pointer, didn't need the ball in his hands, could defend, but also could take players off the dribble.

Kobe has preferred "PGs" who give him the rock and set up shop for a 3 pointer, i.e., the Triangle PG.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:44 am    Post subject:

22 wrote:
Ossim wrote:
None of this explains why Lin was able to play effectively with Harden but has been a non-factor with Kobe.


So effective they had to package a 1st round pick to trade him right?


To be fair they got rid of Asik and Lin, solely to clear up capspace to sign Bosh. They thought that was a done deal. If they didn't believe they would get him, the Rockets would have kept both...
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:48 pm    Post subject:

ppineda wrote:
22 wrote:
Ossim wrote:
None of this explains why Lin was able to play effectively with Harden but has been a non-factor with Kobe.


So effective they had to package a 1st round pick to trade him right?


To be fair they got rid of Asik and Lin, solely to clear up capspace to sign Bosh. They thought that was a done deal. If they didn't believe they would get him, the Rockets would have kept both...


But if Lin was such a quality player they wouldn't have had to package a pick with him.

They RECEIVED a pick for trading Asik
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:31 pm    Post subject:

22 wrote:
ppineda wrote:
22 wrote:
Ossim wrote:
None of this explains why Lin was able to play effectively with Harden but has been a non-factor with Kobe.


So effective they had to package a 1st round pick to trade him right?


To be fair they got rid of Asik and Lin, solely to clear up capspace to sign Bosh. They thought that was a done deal. If they didn't believe they would get him, the Rockets would have kept both...


But if Lin was such a quality player they wouldn't have had to package a pick with him.

They RECEIVED a pick for trading Asik


two things:

1) asik is a much, much more valuable player than lin. no question. how many 7 ft elite defenders are out there? in fact, him being on this team instead of hill would've made a huge difference. his offense is as bad as hill but at least he's an elite paint defender.

2) at the time of lin's trade, the rockets had no leverage, and they were on the clock. everyone and their moms knew they were going after bosh and needed to trade lin in order to offer bosh a contract, and needed to do it quick. sixers wanted the top 5 pick from NO and of course morey wasn't going to give that up even if it meant getting rid of jeremy. the lakers asked for a little less to take lin off of their hands. i believe the lakers also gave them cash as well.

morey isn't known to be someone that would take a loss on a trade. lin is an expiring so it wouldn't have mattered to houston to keep him, and he was a great insurance in case harden gets hurt, averaging 20 and something while harden was out due to injury last year. but they were desperate the clear cap space, and so here we are.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:37 pm    Post subject:

(not worth it)

Last edited by silkwilkes on Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:41 pm    Post subject:

tirebiter wrote:
22 wrote:
ppineda wrote:
22 wrote:
Ossim wrote:
None of this explains why Lin was able to play effectively with Harden but has been a non-factor with Kobe.


So effective they had to package a 1st round pick to trade him right?


To be fair they got rid of Asik and Lin, solely to clear up capspace to sign Bosh. They thought that was a done deal. If they didn't believe they would get him, the Rockets would have kept both...


But if Lin was such a quality player they wouldn't have had to package a pick with him.

They RECEIVED a pick for trading Asik


two things:

1) asik is a much, much more valuable player than lin. no question. how many 7 ft elite defenders are out there? in fact, him being on this team instead of hill would've made a huge difference. his offense is as bad as hill but at least he's an elite paint defender.

2) at the time of lin's trade, the rockets had no leverage, and they were on the clock. everyone and their moms knew they were going after bosh and needed to trade lin in order to offer bosh a contract, and needed to do it quick. sixers wanted the top 5 pick from NO and of course morey wasn't going to give that up even if it meant getting rid of jeremy. the lakers asked for a little less to take lin off of their hands. i believe the lakers also gave them cash as well.

morey isn't known to be someone that would take a loss on a trade. lin is an expiring so it wouldn't have mattered to houston to keep him, and he was a great insurance in case harden gets hurt, averaging 20 and something while harden was out due to injury last year. but they were desperate the clear cap space, and so here we are.


Meh still not convincing me. Any team would take a quality player off another team's hands for free. ESPECIALLY an asset strapped team like us. For us to demand a first and a second in addition to Lin would have been super ballsy.

For example, would Chi have to give up anything to get rid of Butler? Heck would even Orl have to give up anything to give up Tobias Harris?

Quality young players don't require packaging picks with them to be moved. Lin isn't as bad as he's played, but it's likely he's a backup player at best
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