Serious Q: Is it that serious if Boozer, Lin, Wesley, Sacre, etc. are upset?
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:51 pm    Post subject:

Yes, it was nice to see last night.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:54 pm    Post subject:

marga86 wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
marga86 wrote:
Yea I honestly don't like kobe's attitude this season.

I see how pointing fingers during timeouts.. when in reality his shot chucking isn't exactly helping.

Thought kobe had changed.. hurts me, since he is an athlete I looked up to, to see him treat his teammates this way.


Kobe is a direct and confrontational person. That's his style. That's his personality.

The thing that people need to understand about him is that he doesn't harbor animosity when he's doing that. That's just his communication method. Direct. To the point.

He expects the same in return. Be direct and to the point.

But that doesn't mean he dislikes you at all.


I understand that; but my point is more that he isn't exactly performing GREAT himself this season. I would completely understand if some of his teammates are like what the heck.


Exactly. The point is he is hurting the team by shooting so much, and the rest of the team is performing (on offense) probably better than we have a right to expect when you consider his atrocious efficiency.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:55 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
I think we can all agree, there is a good balance between Kobe showing some tough love and being there for his teammates. We saw that last night and despite the tanking consequences, was nice to see the team come together last night. There is literally nothing wrong with this approach.


Kobe's approach didn't change last night vs any other game in this season. Guys actually played hard throughout and didn't wilt. Surprise surprise it puts everybody one the same page then and the team looks a lot better.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:58 pm    Post subject:

22 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I think we can all agree, there is a good balance between Kobe showing some tough love and being there for his teammates. We saw that last night and despite the tanking consequences, was nice to see the team come together last night. There is literally nothing wrong with this approach.


Kobe's approach didn't change last night vs any other game in this season. Guys actually played hard throughout and didn't wilt. Surprise surprise it puts everybody one the same page then and the team looks a lot better.


I think his approach was night/day from the previous game where he took what, 20 shots by halftime? The team looked more patient and together. And you're right, it's about guys making shots and being aggressive, but also knowing that they have a little latitude if they fail. The latter part is what seemed to change. I think both Kobe and the team got the message and adapted. Don't know why folks think that Kobe being immutable is the best strategy.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:04 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
22 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I think we can all agree, there is a good balance between Kobe showing some tough love and being there for his teammates. We saw that last night and despite the tanking consequences, was nice to see the team come together last night. There is literally nothing wrong with this approach.


Kobe's approach didn't change last night vs any other game in this season. Guys actually played hard throughout and didn't wilt. Surprise surprise it puts everybody one the same page then and the team looks a lot better.


I think his approach was night/day from the previous game where he took what, 20 shots by halftime? The team looked more patient and together. And you're right, it's about guys making shots and being aggressive, but also knowing that they have a little latitude if they fail. The latter part is what seemed to change. I think both Kobe and the team got the message and adapted. Don't know why folks think that Kobe being immutable is the best strategy.


I don't. If guys had come out bricking and then looking lethargic on defense I guarantee you KB would have doubled his shot attempts.

To me the difference is the guys are learning to be go getters w/ Kobe or else he will do it for you. And they're learning that it's ok to do that. Kobe actually gets more mad if you don't take the initiative. Essentially they need to stop worrying about a "leash" because there isn't one. Just go play as hard as you can and you'll be A ok with Mr. Bryant
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:07 pm    Post subject:

22 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I think we can all agree, there is a good balance between Kobe showing some tough love and being there for his teammates. We saw that last night and despite the tanking consequences, was nice to see the team come together last night. There is literally nothing wrong with this approach.


Kobe's approach didn't change last night vs any other game in this season. Guys actually played hard throughout and didn't wilt. Surprise surprise it puts everybody one the same page then and the team looks a lot better.


Agreed. Kobe's approach was the same but Lin, Boozer, and Young came out strong at the start of the game and Kobe saw that and let them do their thing. History has shown that when Kobe has decent teammates and they show up consistently, he will give them the ball, let them do work, and the Lakers will win championships.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:09 pm    Post subject:

PhoenixForce wrote:
22 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I think we can all agree, there is a good balance between Kobe showing some tough love and being there for his teammates. We saw that last night and despite the tanking consequences, was nice to see the team come together last night. There is literally nothing wrong with this approach.


Kobe's approach didn't change last night vs any other game in this season. Guys actually played hard throughout and didn't wilt. Surprise surprise it puts everybody one the same page then and the team looks a lot better.


Agreed. Kobe's approach was the same but Lin, Boozer, and Young came out strong at the start of the game and Kobe saw that and let them do their thing. History has shown that when Kobe has decent teammates and they show up consistently, he will give them the ball, let them do work, and the Lakers will win championships.


Pretty much.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:12 pm    Post subject:

22 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
22 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I think we can all agree, there is a good balance between Kobe showing some tough love and being there for his teammates. We saw that last night and despite the tanking consequences, was nice to see the team come together last night. There is literally nothing wrong with this approach.


Kobe's approach didn't change last night vs any other game in this season. Guys actually played hard throughout and didn't wilt. Surprise surprise it puts everybody one the same page then and the team looks a lot better.


I think his approach was night/day from the previous game where he took what, 20 shots by halftime? The team looked more patient and together. And you're right, it's about guys making shots and being aggressive, but also knowing that they have a little latitude if they fail. The latter part is what seemed to change. I think both Kobe and the team got the message and adapted. Don't know why folks think that Kobe being immutable is the best strategy.


I don't. If guys had come out bricking and then looking lethargic on defense I guarantee you KB would have doubled his shot attempts.

To me the difference is the guys are learning to be go getters w/ Kobe or else he will do it for you. And they're learning that it's ok to do that. Kobe actually gets more mad if you don't take the initiative. Essentially they need to stop worrying about a "leash" because there isn't one. Just go play as hard as you can and you'll be A ok with Mr. Bryant


Easier said than done. Team overall is poor, I don't think there's disagreement about that. But I find it odd when Kobe is (as Rivershow wisely pointed out, a polarizing point) the source of the win but not a reason for the loss. He's the unquestioned leader and best player on this team. The 11 game sample size has shown when the team steps up and Kobe keeps his shooting within a tighter pocket (around 20-22 shots), we have won. Again, small size, but the team overall looks happier and dare say Kobe does too. How could we not want that?
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:16 pm    Post subject:

Here's the thing:

Kobe tells Lin to be a man and run the offense.

Then Kobe ignores the sets that Lin or BS calls (according to Boozer) and goes into "chucker mode" disrupting the sets.

Then Boozer and Lin call Kobe out, and Kobe offers a stupid metaphor about a purse snatcher to explain why he has to shoot at historic levels. (Stupid because his efficiency is so low.)

Yet somehow Kobe's apologists blame the rest of the team for offensive deficiencies (even though they are shooting much, much better than Kobe), and then those Kobe apologists also call the disgruntled players wimps for not being able to speak their mind (and at the same time create "who cares what they think" threads like this one).

Huh?

Fortunately, Kobe seemed to take his teammates' criticisms to heart and played more team-oriented ball last night. An appropriate usage rate for Kobe this season would be .28. That won't happen. But low 30s would be nice.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:17 pm    Post subject:

22 wrote:
PhoenixForce wrote:
22 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I think we can all agree, there is a good balance between Kobe showing some tough love and being there for his teammates. We saw that last night and despite the tanking consequences, was nice to see the team come together last night. There is literally nothing wrong with this approach.


Kobe's approach didn't change last night vs any other game in this season. Guys actually played hard throughout and didn't wilt. Surprise surprise it puts everybody one the same page then and the team looks a lot better.


Agreed. Kobe's approach was the same but Lin, Boozer, and Young came out strong at the start of the game and Kobe saw that and let them do their thing. History has shown that when Kobe has decent teammates and they show up consistently, he will give them the ball, let them do work, and the Lakers will win championships.


Pretty much.


This logic doesn't make a lot of sense for non-Laker fans. Why? They just look at the box scores.

Plus, most folks totally disregard our poor defensive execution. It's always about our offense.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:19 pm    Post subject:

Interesting stats:

1. When the team is behind by 10 points, Kobe averages 29 FGAs/36 minutes.

2. When the team is behind by 1-9 points, Kobe averages 26 FGAs/36 minutes.

3. When the team is tied, Kobe averages 18 FGAs/36 minutes.

4. When the team is ahead, Kobe averages 16 FGAs/36 minutes.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/11902490/kobe-bryant-shooting-ultimate-mixed-blessing-lakers-nba

It’s the ultimate Rorschach test. I like the Kobe that is in the 20-22 FGAs/36 minutes pocket. That has seemed to be the magic number so far. Again, I wholeheartedly agree that the team needs to step up in order gain Kobe’s favor, but as folks have said in this thread (and I agree), we don’t exactly have the mentally toughest group of players. They do need a little bit of a leash to get going.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:24 pm    Post subject:

Kobe will shoot less when his teammates play better. It's as simple as that. When we had a championship caliber team from 2007-2011 Kobe was at 20 FGA per game in that era.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:27 pm    Post subject:

PhoenixForce wrote:
Kobe will shoot less when his teammates play better. It's as simple as that. When we had a championship caliber team from 2007-2011 Kobe was at 20 FGA per game in that era.


That is true. His career average is 19.6 and historically the money range has been around that number (though ironically in more averaged minutes than 36).

I don't like how this has turned into a blame pie; I think what the more interesting question is how to get the team to have better performances on a consistent basis. I think we all agree that when the team plays better overall then Kobe's shot attempts naturally hover at an ideal range. It's when the team is down that sometimes the overly exuberant side comes out. How do we get to that ideal place with these less than stellar players?
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:28 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
22 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I think we can all agree, there is a good balance between Kobe showing some tough love and being there for his teammates. We saw that last night and despite the tanking consequences, was nice to see the team come together last night. There is literally nothing wrong with this approach.


Kobe's approach didn't change last night vs any other game in this season. Guys actually played hard throughout and didn't wilt. Surprise surprise it puts everybody one the same page then and the team looks a lot better.


I think his approach was night/day from the previous game where he took what, 20 shots by halftime? The team looked more patient and together. And you're right, it's about guys making shots and being aggressive, but also knowing that they have a little latitude if they fail. The latter part is what seemed to change. I think both Kobe and the team got the message and adapted. Don't know why folks think that Kobe being immutable is the best strategy.


actually thought it was more because they played some D and wasn't down 10 points from the get-go, and because of that, kobe was willing to be more patient and not go into his "chase the robber" mode. if they had been down early, i'm certain kobe would've played differently.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:29 pm    Post subject:

Rivershow wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
So where's your proof that Kobe was the reason they wanted to be on the Lakers? I know Isiah Thomas grew up a Lakers fan, but did he ever say that Kobe was the motivating factor to be here? Or Lance? Or even Ariza?


Does that matter really? I don't think Kobe or no Kobe is the sole defining factor for whether a free agent will come to the Lakers. Give them a respectable deal and I'm sure they would of come. People on both sides of the argument get too hung up on Kobe as this polarizing figure. He is just another player on the court when everyone laces up their shoes.


Are we going to ignore a certain player from two years ago? I am a fan of Kobe but c'mon man, who you play with certainly does matter.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/11/12/dwight-howard-talks-about-his-exit-from-orlando-explains-reasons-for-asking-magic-to-fire-stan-van-gundy/
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:29 pm    Post subject:

PhoenixForce wrote:
Kobe will shoot less when his teammates play better. It's as simple as that. When we had a championship caliber team from 2007-2011 Kobe was at 20 FGA per game in that era.


Thank you!! It's not rocket science.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:30 pm    Post subject:

PhoenixForce wrote:
Kobe will shoot less when his teammates play better. It's as simple as that. When we had a championship caliber team from 2007-2011 Kobe was at 20 FGA per game in that era.


Kobe has to realize that he isn't the player he was from 2007-2011 either and that he is hurting the team by shooting so much.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:34 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
silkwilkes wrote:
I love Kobe's approach... he quickly separates the men from the boys. It helps the team although its harsh. You know very quickly which players have a killer instinct and which ones don't.

That's why the Lakers quickly transitioned players in and out for a few years after Shaq was traded. Kobe weeded the scrubs out and exposed them. After 3 years, the Lakers were right back to the NBA Finals with only Kobe and Fisher as the holdovers from the Shaq era.

If a FA is afraid to come to LA because he doesn't want to match Kobe's competitiveness... then i don't want him here anyhow.

And btw, all Kobe did was tell his teammates: If you guys aren't ready to play, i'm going to take ALL the shots. Let me know when you're ready and you'll see the ball again. Simple.


So how have we fared so far with this approach the past few seasons?

Again, when Kobe was in his prime, I think his amazing on-court dominance eclipsed his tough demands. He's 36 and approaching the game the same way.

Put it this way, how many of you guys are dressing the same today as you did when you were in your late teens? (Still rocking that Cross-Colors outfit with the hat backwards in your late 30s early 40s?)

I hope he reaches out to his teammates, even though they are far inferior players than he's accustomed to. He needs help, and the last thing we need is to drive prospective FAs away with the "you ain't tough enough" braggadocio. We don't have the luxury or personnel to be brandishing this right now.
It's worked fine so far. He ran guys like Chucky Atkins, Smush Parker, D12, Bynum and other soft players out of town quickly before we made the mistake of keeping them... on the other hand, guys like Gasol, Odom, Artest, Caron Butler, Fisher, Ariza, etc. all loved him and played great with Kobe.

Again... any FA that's not tough enough should stay away from LA. Kobe is doing us a favor by scaring them off if he's doing that. Besides, other than D12, i haven't heard a single good to elite player say that he's got issues playing with Kobe. Carmelo wanted the cash and so did Ariza. Artest took less to have the chance to play with Kobe...
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:37 pm    Post subject:

silkwilkes wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
silkwilkes wrote:
I love Kobe's approach... he quickly separates the men from the boys. It helps the team although its harsh. You know very quickly which players have a killer instinct and which ones don't.

That's why the Lakers quickly transitioned players in and out for a few years after Shaq was traded. Kobe weeded the scrubs out and exposed them. After 3 years, the Lakers were right back to the NBA Finals with only Kobe and Fisher as the holdovers from the Shaq era.

If a FA is afraid to come to LA because he doesn't want to match Kobe's competitiveness... then i don't want him here anyhow.

And btw, all Kobe did was tell his teammates: If you guys aren't ready to play, i'm going to take ALL the shots. Let me know when you're ready and you'll see the ball again. Simple.


So how have we fared so far with this approach the past few seasons?

Again, when Kobe was in his prime, I think his amazing on-court dominance eclipsed his tough demands. He's 36 and approaching the game the same way.

Put it this way, how many of you guys are dressing the same today as you did when you were in your late teens? (Still rocking that Cross-Colors outfit with the hat backwards in your late 30s early 40s?)

I hope he reaches out to his teammates, even though they are far inferior players than he's accustomed to. He needs help, and the last thing we need is to drive prospective FAs away with the "you ain't tough enough" braggadocio. We don't have the luxury or personnel to be brandishing this right now.
It's worked fine so far. He ran guys like Chucky Atkins, Smush Parker, D12, Bynum and other soft players out of town quickly before we made the mistake of keeping them... on the other hand, guys like Gasol, Odom, Artest, Caron Butler, Fisher, Ariza, etc. all loved him and played great with Kobe.

Again... any FA that's not tough enough should stay away from LA. Kobe is doing us a favor by scaring them off if he's doing that. Besides, other than D12, i haven't heard a single good to elite player say that he's got issues playing with Kobe. Carmelo wanted the cash... he's best friends with Kobe. Their wives hang out together all the time too.


Well, you're using a prime or close-to-prime Kobe as an example.

To be fair, I think free agents were curious to see whether Kobe was healthy this offseason. I think he's shown that so far.

And the D12 situation, while I'm no fan of his, I can't just discount losing a player of that magnitude. To me, and I know others differ, it's about having assets and losing him was a big blow. We can't scare off someone of his caliber, even if he doesn't meet Kobe's approval. There is a post-Kobe world that is coming, which is a scary reality, but we need to keep players, even those who are productive in their own peculiar ways.

To me it as a Pyrrhic victory. So yay, we kept guys who are at "Kobe's level" and chased away Dwight. But damn, we lost a talented player. If it didn't work out, plenty of teams we could have traded Dwight to down the road.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:38 pm    Post subject:

Spec wrote:
Rivershow wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
So where's your proof that Kobe was the reason they wanted to be on the Lakers? I know Isiah Thomas grew up a Lakers fan, but did he ever say that Kobe was the motivating factor to be here? Or Lance? Or even Ariza?


Does that matter really? I don't think Kobe or no Kobe is the sole defining factor for whether a free agent will come to the Lakers. Give them a respectable deal and I'm sure they would of come. People on both sides of the argument get too hung up on Kobe as this polarizing figure. He is just another player on the court when everyone laces up their shoes.


Are we going to ignore a certain player from two years ago? I am a fan of Kobe but c'mon man, who you play with certainly does matter.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/11/12/dwight-howard-talks-about-his-exit-from-orlando-explains-reasons-for-asking-magic-to-fire-stan-van-gundy/


What REALLY matters is who you play with to legitimately compete. Not necessarily who you want to play with. HOU will not be in contention (barring some major injuries on other teams). We know D12 doesn't have the mentality nor the discipline to compete for a championship in a tough conference.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:38 pm    Post subject:

Rugbar wrote:
PhoenixForce wrote:
Kobe will shoot less when his teammates play better. It's as simple as that. When we had a championship caliber team from 2007-2011 Kobe was at 20 FGA per game in that era.


Kobe has to realize that he isn't the player he was from 2007-2011 either and that he is hurting the team by shooting so much.


Yeah, that is also a problem. That Kobe was more efficient. I don't even care that he shoots 30 times/gm if he is in the 45-50% range.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:40 pm    Post subject:

Rugbar wrote:
PhoenixForce wrote:
Kobe will shoot less when his teammates play better. It's as simple as that. When we had a championship caliber team from 2007-2011 Kobe was at 20 FGA per game in that era.


Kobe has to realize that he isn't the player he was from 2007-2011 either and that he is hurting the team by shooting so much.


He realizes that he's not on the same team as he was from 2007-2011. That's why he's shooting so much.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:41 pm    Post subject:

Janggoon8 wrote:
Spec wrote:
Rivershow wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
So where's your proof that Kobe was the reason they wanted to be on the Lakers? I know Isiah Thomas grew up a Lakers fan, but did he ever say that Kobe was the motivating factor to be here? Or Lance? Or even Ariza?


Does that matter really? I don't think Kobe or no Kobe is the sole defining factor for whether a free agent will come to the Lakers. Give them a respectable deal and I'm sure they would of come. People on both sides of the argument get too hung up on Kobe as this polarizing figure. He is just another player on the court when everyone laces up their shoes.


Are we going to ignore a certain player from two years ago? I am a fan of Kobe but c'mon man, who you play with certainly does matter.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/11/12/dwight-howard-talks-about-his-exit-from-orlando-explains-reasons-for-asking-magic-to-fire-stan-van-gundy/


What REALLY matters is who you play with to legitimately compete. Not necessarily who you want to play with. HOU will not be in contention (barring some major injuries on other teams). We know D12 doesn't have the mentality nor the discipline to compete for a championship in a tough conference.


Well, as much as we all hate D12, it's not like we couldn't use 18/11, top level interior defense. It was a loss and a blow no matter how you describe. 2-3 Jordan Hills do not make up for D12.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:42 pm    Post subject:

And this post wasn't necessarily about Kobe's shooting IMO. It's about whether to care about clearly less-talented teammates who will all be gone next year. I say yes. You can't just disregard them or feel they are beneath you.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:54 pm    Post subject:

I don't think that he disregards them or feels that they're beneath him... he challenges them to play harder and better than they are accustomed to. If they don't, he doesn't give them the ball.

His mentality is that there's no excuse for being soft out there and i completely agree with him. That's his style of leadership.

Gasol has credited Kobe with making him into a winner and helping him get the extra mental edge. Spain didn't medal in the Olympics until after Gasol joined the Lakers and took them to the final game in 2008 and 2012.

If you want to coast along with your NBA career... stay away from a team with Kobe.
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