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LandsbergerRules Franchise Player
Joined: 29 Aug 2004 Posts: 11197 Location: The Other Perspective
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Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:31 am Post subject: Thoughts on Lance Stephenson's Struggles? |
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You guys think Jim and Mitch made the right choice by not signing him?
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/11945509/lance-stephenson-charlotte-hornets-benched-4th-quarter-again _________________ "Chick lived and breathed Lakers basketball…but he was also fair and objective and called every game the way it was played."
-from Chick: His Unpublished Memoirs and the Memories of Those Who Knew Him |
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LakerDYnasty72 Star Player
Joined: 18 Jul 2006 Posts: 4562
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Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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I was looking at that too. Straight shooting, blunt talking, Coach Clifford stated that "he's not a star yet"....ouch. I won't go as far as to say that the Lakers made a mistake, but everyone knew Lance is a complementary player.
Who knows, he might have meshed well with Kobe & the team despite the doubts. |
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Telleris Star Player
Joined: 28 May 2013 Posts: 2371
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Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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LakerDYnasty72 wrote: | I was looking at that too. Straight shooting, blunt talking, Coach Clifford stated that "he's not a star yet"....ouch. I won't go as far as to say that the Lakers made a mistake, but everyone knew Lance is a complementary player.
Who knows, he might have meshed well with Kobe & the team despite the doubts. |
he's not being paid star money, so its really not that big a deal, it's when you pay star money for a non star that you screw your team. _________________ I believe everything the media tells me except for anything for which I have direct personal knowledge, which they always get wrong |
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Mike@LG Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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He needed the discipline in Indiana.
He doesn't have it in his current situation.
It's hurting his game. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
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Drifts Retired Number
Joined: 22 Nov 2004 Posts: 28374
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Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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yes. Mitch and Jim clearly saw through Lance... but year is not over yet _________________ "Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it." |
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wolfpaclaker Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002 Posts: 58318
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Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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I wasn't upset at all that the Lakers didn't sign guys like Lance. You don't win rings making moves like that.
But at the contract the Hornets have him at, it's not really that bad. They can probably still move him down the road. |
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indy_dave000 Sixth Man
Joined: 27 Oct 2014 Posts: 67
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Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 12:30 am Post subject: |
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Mike @ LG
You are so correct the Pacers built a solid support system around Lance and brought him along slowly. His family and agent played the Pacers disrespected you card and Lance followed their advice.
While here he could be a problem at times but had little pressure to be anything but a role player. When he got to Charlotte his signing was announced as a young star bought in as the missing piece.
Larry Bird, always praised Lance and wanted to keep him but Lance's people never even gave the Pacers a chance to match the Hornets offer. Vogel was the perfect coach for Lance, he never publicly criticized him and only praised him.
But the Pacers knew Lance's faults the Hornets didn't realize that Lance needs a strong support system, the more critical Clifford is of Lance ( tho Clifford is correct in his comments) the more Lance will sulk in time the situation could easily turn into an him or me ultimatum. |
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carlosLisboa Star Player
Joined: 02 Apr 2006 Posts: 3079 Location: Portugal
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Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:27 am Post subject: |
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indy_dave000 wrote: | Mike@LG
You are so correct the Pacers built a solid support system around Lance and brought him along slowly. His family and agent played the Pacers disrespected you card and Lance followed their advice.
While here he could be a problem at times but had little pressure to be anything but a role player. When he got to Charlotte his signing was announced as a young star bought in as the missing piece.
Larry Bird, always praised Lance and wanted to keep him but Lance's people never even gave the Pacers a chance to match the Hornets offer. Vogel was the perfect coach for Lance, he never publicly criticized him and only praised him.
But the Pacers knew Lance's faults the Hornets didn't realize that Lance needs a strong support system, the more critical Clifford is of Lance ( tho Clifford is correct in his comments) the more Lance will sulk in time the situation could easily turn into an him or me ultimatum. |
He is a high energy guy, needing the ball to do flashy stuff and disrupt the opponent's game.
I see it hard to do in a losing team where a silly turnover can cost them the game.
Furthermore he is playing with a good (and well paid) PG, and there is no need for him to take the ball upcourt and distribute it. As he can't shoot, he'll get no benefit from double teams on Al Jefferson, who would be reluctant to give the ball out in the first place. _________________ -----------------------------------------------------
http://www.youtube.com/user/NBAMadeira |
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Treble Clef Franchise Player
Joined: 20 Nov 2012 Posts: 23742
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Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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LakerDYnasty72 wrote: | I was looking at that too. Straight shooting, blunt talking, Coach Clifford stated that "he's not a star yet"....ouch. I won't go as far as to say that the Lakers made a mistake, but everyone knew Lance is a complementary player.
Who knows, he might have meshed well with Kobe & the team despite the doubts. |
A ton of people didn't seem to know that. I think a lot of people were overselling him as a star because they hoped he could be the superhero that could take LeBron down. He has talent but he's a little out there. |
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GoldenThroat Moderator
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 37474
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Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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I think it's a fairly natural part of his progression and transition. As Clifford said, he's not a star...yet. He has the talent to be one. And he's handled his situation in Charlotte with maturity. He's not pouting, complaining to the media, or being a locker room issue. Even while struggling from the field, he's still been rebounding and generating assists, although to be fair, I haven't caught a game other than the one vs. us. At 3 year, $27M w/a team option, he was a huge whiff by the FO. High reward w/very little risk. |
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fiendishoc Star Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
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Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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His lack of 3 pt shooting is really hurting them. Stack that on losing such a key part of their offense (and stretch 4) in McRoberts, then you could see why its been so tough for them. |
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MJST Retired Number
Joined: 06 Jul 2014 Posts: 26074
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Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:26 am Post subject: |
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Yes, the Lakers dodged one, of dealing with him through these years.
There's a reason Lance winded up settling having to sign for less and allow a team option.
THAT spoke volumes imo. |
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Theseus Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Dec 2007 Posts: 13855
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Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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Lance had a great situation in indiana and he walked away for the money. |
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GoldenThroat Moderator
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 37474
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Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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MJST wrote: | Yes, the Lakers dodged one, of dealing with him through these years.
There's a reason Lance winded up settling having to sign for less and allow a team option.
THAT spoke volumes imo. |
He was offered 5 years and more money from Indiana. He didn't settle...he chose it. |
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MJST Retired Number
Joined: 06 Jul 2014 Posts: 26074
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Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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GoldenThroat wrote: | MJST wrote: | Yes, the Lakers dodged one, of dealing with him through these years.
There's a reason Lance winded up settling having to sign for less and allow a team option.
THAT spoke volumes imo. |
He was offered 5 years and more money from Indiana. He didn't settle...he chose it. |
Pretty much, but its the fact he burned the bridge to such an extent he couldn't go back after they gave him a deadline to accept.
Then Charlotte putting a team option on him was another.
Then you see just how much he doesn't move the needle for Charlotte this year it's disappointing, but it also shows how all the hate the Lakers got during the off-season for not getting him as a potential season saving move has been thus far proven incorrect.
One thing Lance will always be good at is getting the other stats, but he was great on Indiana because he could do what he did without having to worry about being locked in on defensively. Now in Charlotte he doesn't have that luxury and he's inconsistent again. |
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leor_77 Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Mar 2012 Posts: 21920
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Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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Lakers sure dodged a bullet there, with their 3-13 record. |
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Fruscas Star Player
Joined: 12 Mar 2013 Posts: 5130
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Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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While i havent been following the hornets, i have him in my fantasy team and he's been filling boxscores this season.
His shooting is gone yes but he's doing everything else well it seems. Also, way too early to draw conclusions...cause although charlotte is having a terrible season i think that's due to the lack of mcroberts or of a quality stretch 4 more than anything else |
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Hard_Butter Franchise Player
Joined: 02 Jan 2012 Posts: 12223 Location: The Two One Three
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Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 1:46 am Post subject: |
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leor_77 wrote: | Lakers sure dodged a bullet there, with their 3-13 record. |
They sure did. I'd much rather retain our top 5 pick than for Lance to be contributing to maybe 5-8 more wins. I'd also much rather use his money on RJax, Dragic, Knight, Matthews, or possibly Butler next year. _________________ The butter's hard and the eggs are chillin' in the dark.
Kiss my Converse. |
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gumby Star Player
Joined: 24 Jun 2005 Posts: 2500 Location: Inland Empire
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Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:32 am Post subject: |
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He was just never that good.
Period.
Bye. _________________ "This trophy removes the most odious sentence in the English Language. It can never be said again that 'the Lakers have never beaten the Celtics.'" -Dr. Jerry Buss (1985) R.I.P., 33 x M.V.O. |
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lakersken80 Retired Number
Joined: 12 Aug 2009 Posts: 38749
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Omar Little Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90299 Location: Formerly Known As 24
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Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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GoldenThroat wrote: | I think it's a fairly natural part of his progression and transition. As Clifford said, he's not a star...yet. He has the talent to be one. And he's handled his situation in Charlotte with maturity. He's not pouting, complaining to the media, or being a locker room issue. Even while struggling from the field, he's still been rebounding and generating assists, although to be fair, I haven't caught a game other than the one vs. us. At 3 year, $27M w/a team option, he was a huge whiff by the FO. High reward w/very little risk. |
Back during the offseason, I compared Stevenson to George Hill as an example of a guy who in the right system with a lot of other weapons and attention diverted elsewhere, produces numbers and efficiencies in a limited number of opportunities that cause people to extrapolate what he would do if he was given more opportunities. The problem with this extrapolation is, if you move a guy up the pecking order, and thus focus the defense more on him, or if you change systems in order to do so, you begin to see the holes in their game that has them producing what they already are, as opposed to getting more opportunity.
Simply put, Stevenson has glaring holes in his game. He is a mediocre 3 point shooter, average at a league level, but sub average on a positional basis. What’s more, he benefitted from Indy’s system and the attention given to other players. Teams keyed on George and David West, and what’s more, they were loath to leave Hill because of his open 3 point shooting skills, and Hibbert because of his size and location around the basket. So Stevenson was the guy they chose to beat them off the rotation. He got a ton of open 3 looks (which makes his percentage even worse, since players tend to hit a much higher percentage wide open), and spent a lot of the time getting the ball in open space or against a rotating defender. Importantly, Stevenson is an awful shooter at mid and long 2’s (he shot 35% on 2 point shots outside of 10 feet last year), and he gets even worse (as we have seen in Charlotte) when someone contests those shots more regularly.
He did the vast majority of his damage in the lane last year, exploiting seams, lack of coverage, or single rotating coverage to get there. He is no longer getting there at the same rate, and he isn’t converting as well either. He has seen a 20% drop in the percentage of his attempts inside 3 feet, and an 11% drop in attempts between 3 and 10 feet, his bread and butter areas last year. Further, he has seen a decline of his fg% in those areas from 69 to 61 percent at the rim, and from 43 to 21 percent. He has seen an increase of 38% in his shots from 10-16 feet (where he hits 35%), and a whopping 108% increase in percentage of shots from 16 feet to the 3 line (which he is hitting at 32%). He has been effectively driven off the 3 shot as well (down 48% as a percentage of shots), and has been awful at the ones he takes.
What is revealed about Stephenson is that he lacks the ability to manufacture good shots for himself when paid attention to, and he also lacks the ability to make shots with a contesting defender nearby. He is an excellent passer, seeing others well as they open up and delivery the correct, timely pass, but he cannot create for himself without the huge window of opportunity afforded by being far down the defensive pecking order. Rather than being held back in Indy, he was being propped up, and his efficiencies there were primarily due to lack of defensive attention. We saw that after the allstar break last year, when he attempted to do more, drew more attention, and his numbers fell. They have fallen even more as defenses have figured out his vast holes and tailored themselves to exploiting those while challenging his sweet spots.
Worse than all of this is his attitude. He wants to be a star, and becomes moody, pouty, and selfish when things don’t go his way. After the allstar snub, he became a cancer, and his defense fell off considerably (his d rating fell off hugely after the break, and remains right there in Charlotte, a team that was top 5 in defensive rating last year without him, but has plummeted to 24th with him). He is already said to be an internal distraction in Charlotte and is on the market. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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kaoss128 Franchise Player
Joined: 09 Apr 2006 Posts: 13058 Location: Morgantown, WV
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Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 1:41 pm Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Lance Stephenson's Struggles? |
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Absolutely not. |
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Potato-Mania Star Player
Joined: 07 Nov 2012 Posts: 1244
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Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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I just saw some trade rumor involving him.
This is why big franchises don't overpay for other dudes just cause you strike out on the stars. Sure, it makes the fans happy to have new blood on the team but come a quarter of the way through the season. People will be trying to get rid of him. |
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vanexelent Retired Number
Joined: 17 May 2005 Posts: 30081
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eureca Franchise Player
Joined: 18 Jan 2004 Posts: 15798
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Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | @WojYahooNBA
So far, Charlotte's been unwilling to attach a first-round pick to unload Stephenson. That could've kick-started conversation with Pacers. |
So teams are looking for a 1st rounder to even take Stephenson? He is on a 2 year contract the 3rd year is a team option.
Obviously Nash is available as an expiring. Why are they giving him away like candy? I know he hasn't played well, but im guessing its his attitude as well. |
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