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TheElectronica Star Player
Joined: 30 Jan 2010 Posts: 1392
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Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:59 am Post subject: |
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D'Antoni is a good coach. Just an awful fit for this team.
Kobe's mentality is defense and effort. D'Antoni is ball movement creates effort. Kobe expects the team to play hard because he is going to play hard, while D'Antoni believes that getting everyone involved leads to more effort. I buy into D'Antoni's system, it is just his system requires specific type of players He needs athleticism to compensate for his offense putting the defense into bad positions, and an anchor. You can argue that any team with an anchor and athletes can be a good defensive team, but they can't do that at the offense efficiency D'Antoni will run. The problem? His offense can't function when his bigs can't get back defensively and guys like Kobe value defense from the team more than offense.
It's the two different schools of thought, which lead to the problems, not necessarily him being a good or bad coach. For the record, I think he is a great coach it is just the fact that he's too player dependent to roster a championship team. |
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Reflexx Franchise Player
Joined: 25 Jun 2005 Posts: 11163
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Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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nevitt_smrek wrote: | JerryMagicKobe wrote: | MDA's biggest flaw is that he wasn't Phil Jackson.
He tried to shoehorn unwilling veteran players into specific roles in his system and then made it worse by insulating himself with dismissive sarcasm. His basketball philosophy has merit but he fell short in communcating his plan, inspring confidence and remaining a poised leader through adversity.
Not my favorite coach, but certainly not the worst. |
Agreed. The real problem was that he wasn't the right fit for certain players, Pau Gasol in particular. Corner threes...things weren't going to end well. The Lakers should have hired a guy that utilized Gasol's passing and post play (Sloan or Adelman). No problem going with MDA, but then Gasol should have been moved for parts that fit. |
Should have traded Dwight for Tyson Chandler! That way Dwight wouldn't have to be Kobe's Tyson Chandler. Tyson Chandler would have been Kobe's Tyson Chandler. |
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Kava Star Player
Joined: 10 Mar 2010 Posts: 2173
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Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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That's true 24. I ruptured my achilles playing basketball. But I know a guy who suffered the same injury simply walking off a sidewalk curb.
A coach get's the most out of the talent that he has. Mike D did not because P Gasol is one of the most skilled big men in the league and he didn't see it the same, obvious, way. You don't diminish the contributions of that caliber of player and expect to be taken seriously as an 'Professional' coach. |
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Omar Little Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90299 Location: Formerly Known As 24
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Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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MDA ultimately was not able to reach accommodation with pau. Unlike many, I put a fair amount of that on Pau, because he wanted Phil, and most importantly, he didn't want to cede his "place" to Howard. Even when Howard was gone and MDA installed pau in his rightful place, pau was unwilling to give it his all (and part of that was not even about MDA).
MDA was tasked with the impossible in that way, accommodating two guys who had mutually exclusive goals and who both saw Phil giving them what they wanted. I say impossible because while I agree there are many things MDA could have done better, even if he had he would have failed. I believe Phil would have ultimately failed as well. Just in a different way with far more leash from the players (which he has earned). But it is what it is. You take the job, you get the responsibility, and failure is failure. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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LakersMDGurl Franchise Player
Joined: 24 Jun 2005 Posts: 18015
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Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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TheElectronica wrote: | D'Antoni is a good coach. Just an awful fit for this team.
Kobe's mentality is defense and effort. D'Antoni is ball movement creates effort. Kobe expects the team to play hard because he is going to play hard, while D'Antoni believes that getting everyone involved leads to more effort. I buy into D'Antoni's system, it is just his system requires specific type of players He needs athleticism to compensate for his offense putting the defense into bad positions, and an anchor. You can argue that any team with an anchor and athletes can be a good defensive team, but they can't do that at the offense efficiency D'Antoni will run. The problem? His offense can't function when his bigs can't get back defensively and guys like Kobe value defense from the team more than offense.
It's the two different schools of thought, which lead to the problems, not necessarily him being a good or bad coach. For the record, I think he is a great coach it is just the fact that he's too player dependent to roster a championship team. |
Sorry no, Kobe's mentality is hard work and effort. Kobe plays no D. The ball movement is where the issue was. Kobe wasn't as futured in MDA's system if he was not in the PG role. That "everyone touch the ball" system was NOT for Kobe. Also, all that running was not something an older guy like Kobe wanted to do and MDA had this crazy aversion to post ups and inside game (go figure) _________________ New Beginings |
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kikanga Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29150 Location: La La Land
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Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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24 wrote: | kikanga wrote: | 3 things I didn't like about MDA.
1) Kept playing Kobe in that GS game after Kobe already hurt himself twice prior to his achilles-tearing play.
2) Alienated Pau Gasol the moment he got off the plane.
3) Couldn't get the best pick and roll big to buy into playing pick and roll. |
You have number two backward, and it was even before MDA got off the plane.
And no one has been able to do number three, because Dwight fancies himself an old school post big, and doesn't want to play pick and roll ball. |
MDA two weeks after being hired.
Quote: | During his postgame news conference, D’Antoni was asked what he was thinking when he left Pau on the bench in crunch time again. He spared no feelings in his response.
“I was thinking ‘Oh, I’d like to win this game.’ That’s what I was thinking,” D’Antoni said. |
MDA 8 weeks after being hired is only coach ever to bench Pau permanently.
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/21594872/mike-dantoni-benches-pau-gasol-permanently _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
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Krispy Kreme Franchise Player
Joined: 30 Mar 2003 Posts: 12252
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Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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He was a decent X's and O's coach with piss poor player management "skills".
The players and media soured on him, and now he's out.
Poor hire by Jim Buss.. looks like Byron will be the same. _________________ Dominating every day. |
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kikanga Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29150 Location: La La Land
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Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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24 wrote: | And no one has been able to do number three, because Dwight fancies himself an old school post big, and doesn't want to play pick and roll ball. |
Quote: | The Rockets went to the pick-and-roll nearly 1 out of every 4 times they were in a half court offense last season. Just how good was the Rockets’ pick-and-roll? The short answer is it was very good. In fact, the Rockets were the 3rd best team in the league, generating 0.92 points every time they ran it (only the Knicks and Heat were better). |
http://www.sloansportsconference.com/?p=12201 _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
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Omar Little Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90299 Location: Formerly Known As 24
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Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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kikanga wrote: | 24 wrote: | And no one has been able to do number three, because Dwight fancies himself an old school post big, and doesn't want to play pick and roll ball. |
Quote: | The Rockets went to the pick-and-roll nearly 1 out of every 4 times they were in a half court offense last season. Just how good was the Rockets’ pick-and-roll? The short answer is it was very good. In fact, the Rockets were the 3rd best team in the league, generating 0.92 points every time they ran it (only the Knicks and Heat were better). |
http://www.sloansportsconference.com/?p=12201 |
Check la's stats with Howard. Same thing. Dominated when they ran it, but limited in quantity due to Dwight's desires. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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Omar Little Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90299 Location: Formerly Known As 24
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Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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kikanga wrote: | 24 wrote: | kikanga wrote: | 3 things I didn't like about MDA.
1) Kept playing Kobe in that GS game after Kobe already hurt himself twice prior to his achilles-tearing play.
2) Alienated Pau Gasol the moment he got off the plane.
3) Couldn't get the best pick and roll big to buy into playing pick and roll. |
You have number two backward, and it was even before MDA got off the plane.
And no one has been able to do number three, because Dwight fancies himself an old school post big, and doesn't want to play pick and roll ball. |
MDA two weeks after being hired.
Quote: | During his postgame news conference, D’Antoni was asked what he was thinking when he left Pau on the bench in crunch time again. He spared no feelings in his response.
“I was thinking ‘Oh, I’d like to win this game.’ That’s what I was thinking,” D’Antoni said. |
MDA 8 weeks after being hired is only coach ever to bench Pau permanently.
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/21594872/mike-dantoni-benches-pau-gasol-permanently |
You do realize that pau was hurt and gassed, right? And that he was getting killed in the first instance? And that he wasn't benched permanently? _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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Krispy Kreme Franchise Player
Joined: 30 Mar 2003 Posts: 12252
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Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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I remember we had this discussion when it happened a few years ago.
Bottom line is, you don't call out your player like that 8 weeks into the job, when you have zero cred with the player. MDA fired the first shots.
I mentioned the last part because a lot of people did the whole, "why can phil call out players, but MDA can't?" _________________ Dominating every day. |
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Omar Little Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90299 Location: Formerly Known As 24
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Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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Krispy Kreme wrote: | I remember we had this discussion when it happened a few years ago.
Bottom line is, you don't call out your player like that 8 weeks into the job, when you have zero cred with the player. MDA fired the first shots.
I mentioned the last part because a lot of people did the whole, "why can phil call out players, but MDA can't?" |
Fair enough. Since MDA and Pau are gone, and we've had these discussions before, and we're still friends, I will drop it. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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Krispy Kreme Franchise Player
Joined: 30 Mar 2003 Posts: 12252
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Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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Alright. _________________ Dominating every day. |
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Omar Little Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90299 Location: Formerly Known As 24
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Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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Damn. We're getting old and soft. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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Reflexx Franchise Player
Joined: 25 Jun 2005 Posts: 11163
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Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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D'antoni is poor when it comes to ego management. He has a system that requires everyone buy into a team mentality. He wasn't able to get the stars to buy into that because the stars have always had more success being focal points. |
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Voices Star Player
Joined: 07 Jul 2006 Posts: 8287 Location: Oxnard, Ca.
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Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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kikanga wrote: | 24 wrote: | kikanga wrote: | 3 things I didn't like about MDA.
1) Kept playing Kobe in that GS game after Kobe already hurt himself twice prior to his achilles-tearing play.
2) Alienated Pau Gasol the moment he got off the plane.
3) Couldn't get the best pick and roll big to buy into playing pick and roll. |
You have number two backward, and it was even before MDA got off the plane.
And no one has been able to do number three, because Dwight fancies himself an old school post big, and doesn't want to play pick and roll ball. |
MDA two weeks after being hired.
Quote: | During his postgame news conference, D’Antoni was asked what he was thinking when he left Pau on the bench in crunch time again. He spared no feelings in his response.
“I was thinking ‘Oh, I’d like to win this game.’ That’s what I was thinking,” D’Antoni said. |
MDA 8 weeks after being hired is only coach ever to bench Pau permanently.
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/21594872/mike-dantoni-benches-pau-gasol-permanently |
I believe that Gasol did not show respect for MDA. I do not believe in MDA coaching philosophy, however a player is being paid to play not judge the coach, IMO Gasol was not doing what was asked of him, instead was disrespecting MDA by being an individual. It was a battle of wills, between MDA and Gasol. One thing about MDA he will not be shown up by players, he is s very proud man. Gasol challenged MDA authority and was benched. We agree on many things however this is not one of them, MDA put Gasol in his place. Not being a Gasol fan his last few years with the Lakers because of his lack of effort, passion and heart I think MDA did the right thing. Was Gasol and MDA a good fit, absolutely not, but that is a different issue. _________________ .....
.....
ALTHOUGH HE STANDS 6 FEET 2 INCHES, JIM BUSS ATTENDED JOCKEY SCHOOL WHEN HE WAS 20. |
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LoyalLakerfan44 Star Player
Joined: 09 Jun 2010 Posts: 3219
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Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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D'Antoni brought his system from Europe where most players are not very talented or athletic, and offensively the requirements are fast ball movement and quick shooting in order to get open shots. Lot of quick pick n rolls, pick n pops and the use of good 3pt shooting skills.
Horrible fit with great one on one players like Kobe, MJ, and centers that score inside with their back to the basket. He never understood this kind of game and wanted a more point guard oriented fast paced game.
How the Lakers didn't see how bad a fit this was, I could never understand.
His chances as an NBA coach are great if he's got a great pg, a bunch of very good outside shooters and a mobile center. He'd fit the Warriors type players like a glove.
Has no idea of how to use players with different skill sets, very poor adaptability and thus a one minded coach.
Byron on the other hand can use centers, point guards, power forwards to a more slow down one on one type game. The old school American type basketball. |
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Avada Starting Rotation
Joined: 14 Nov 2014 Posts: 171
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Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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A coach being "old school'' is about the last thing you want in this league.
What you want is someone who is flexible and adaptable. |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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LoyalLakerfan44 wrote: | D'Antoni brought his system from Europe where most players are not very talented or athletic, and offensively the requirements are fast ball movement and quick shooting in order to get open shots. Lot of quick pick n rolls, pick n pops and the use of good 3pt shooting skills.
Horrible fit with great one on one players like Kobe, MJ, and centers that score inside with their back to the basket. He never understood this kind of game and wanted a more point guard oriented fast paced game.
How the Lakers didn't see how bad a fit this was, I could never understand.
His chances as an NBA coach are great if he's got a great pg, a bunch of very good outside shooters and a mobile center. He'd fit the Warriors type players like a glove.
Has no idea of how to use players with different skill sets, very poor adaptability and thus a one minded coach.
Byron on the other hand can use centers, point guards, power forwards to a more slow down one on one type game. The old school American type basketball. |
Way old school, not something that works in today's NBA. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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Vin Star Player
Joined: 03 Jan 2013 Posts: 6005 Location: France
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Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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kikanga wrote: | 24 wrote: | kikanga wrote: | 3 things I didn't like about MDA.
1) Kept playing Kobe in that GS game after Kobe already hurt himself twice prior to his achilles-tearing play.
2) Alienated Pau Gasol the moment he got off the plane.
3) Couldn't get the best pick and roll big to buy into playing pick and roll. |
You have number two backward, and it was even before MDA got off the plane.
And no one has been able to do number three, because Dwight fancies himself an old school post big, and doesn't want to play pick and roll ball. |
MDA two weeks after being hired.
Quote: | During his postgame news conference, D’Antoni was asked what he was thinking when he left Pau on the bench in crunch time again. He spared no feelings in his response.
“I was thinking ‘Oh, I’d like to win this game.’ That’s what I was thinking,” D’Antoni said. |
MDA 8 weeks after being hired is only coach ever to bench Pau permanently.
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/21594872/mike-dantoni-benches-pau-gasol-permanently |
I've seen Thibodeau give the Boozer treatment to Pau gasol in the 4th quarter a few times already. |
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wolfpaclaker Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002 Posts: 58318
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Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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Don't know how anyone can be called a good coach at the NBA level when about half the stars you've coached have pretty fast turned on you - or downright not wanted to play for you.
Coaching isn't just what system you bring. It's also how you lead. D'Antoni was a horrendous leader for the Lakers. His system may or may not have worked over time. Probably with right talent? It would have worked well. But it remained consistent that he simply had no business coaching Howard, Gasol and Kobe dynamic. Putting him anywhere near them was asking for trouble. Bryant tore his Achilles and turned on D'Antoni within a year's time (Bryant was once D'Antoni's biggest supporter and he grew up idolizing Mike in Italy). Pau and MDA's run ins are well documented. Pau walks and is now a Bull. Dwight? We all know how that went.
A good coach and a leader won't allow all that to happen. His system isn't even close to the reason why he failed and wasn't the right coach. |
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dont_be_a_wuss Franchise Player
Joined: 29 Mar 2012 Posts: 21415
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Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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kikanga wrote: | 24 wrote: | kikanga wrote: | 3 things I didn't like about MDA.
1) Kept playing Kobe in that GS game after Kobe already hurt himself twice prior to his achilles-tearing play.
2) Alienated Pau Gasol the moment he got off the plane.
3) Couldn't get the best pick and roll big to buy into playing pick and roll. |
You have number two backward, and it was even before MDA got off the plane.
And no one has been able to do number three, because Dwight fancies himself an old school post big, and doesn't want to play pick and roll ball. |
MDA two weeks after being hired.
Quote: | During his postgame news conference, D’Antoni was asked what he was thinking when he left Pau on the bench in crunch time again. He spared no feelings in his response.
“I was thinking ‘Oh, I’d like to win this game.’ That’s what I was thinking,” D’Antoni said. |
MDA 8 weeks after being hired is only coach ever to bench Pau permanently.
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/21594872/mike-dantoni-benches-pau-gasol-permanently |
And people actually support this clown |
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Buck32 Star Player
Joined: 30 Apr 2001 Posts: 7318
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Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:02 am Post subject: |
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dont_be_a_wuss wrote: | kikanga wrote: | 24 wrote: | kikanga wrote: | 3 things I didn't like about MDA.
1) Kept playing Kobe in that GS game after Kobe already hurt himself twice prior to his achilles-tearing play.
2) Alienated Pau Gasol the moment he got off the plane.
3) Couldn't get the best pick and roll big to buy into playing pick and roll. |
You have number two backward, and it was even before MDA got off the plane.
And no one has been able to do number three, because Dwight fancies himself an old school post big, and doesn't want to play pick and roll ball. |
MDA two weeks after being hired.
Quote: | During his postgame news conference, D’Antoni was asked what he was thinking when he left Pau on the bench in crunch time again. He spared no feelings in his response.
“I was thinking ‘Oh, I’d like to win this game.’ That’s what I was thinking,” D’Antoni said. |
MDA 8 weeks after being hired is only coach ever to bench Pau permanently.
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/21594872/mike-dantoni-benches-pau-gasol-permanently |
And people actually support this clown |
Some revisionists here on LG even say Pau threw MDA under the bus, that maybe it was Pau's fault SMH. _________________ “Properly read, the bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.”
― Isaac Asimov |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:00 am Post subject: |
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24 wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | 24 wrote: | dont_be_a_wuss wrote: | 24 wrote: | DrWolf wrote: | frankly speaking i wouldnt listen to anything d'antoni says because he was the one that drove kobe to the injury |
All evidence to the contrary notwithstanding. Lookin back the last twenty years, average age of injury, 29, very near average player age. Spread out all over the season, average time of injury about 19-20 minutes played in the game. That and back in the sixties and seventies, guys played insane minutes without Achilles injury. No correlation between age or minutes to speak of. |
The guy was playing 48 minutes a game leading up to the injury, how willfully ignorant are you? |
Im aware of that. I am willfully ignorant of any evidence that this caused the injury. If you can show me where heavy minutes caused achilles tears in nba players, im happy to learn something. |
Yeah, I don't recall anyone, not a single tin foil hat conspiracy theorist, an alarmist, not a soul, commenting on the risk of an achilles tear while he was playing those minutes. Other injuries? Yes. An achilles tear? No. Only after the injury occurred did we feel the need to find something, anything, to explain it.
To your point, why weren't there a rash of achilles tears across the league back in the day when they played 48 minutes per game and had poorer quality (and knowledge) of medical care? Heck, some players averaged over 48 mins/game for an entire season! lol |
Having gone through every Achilles injury over the last twenty odd years, consulted with an orthopedist, , and educated myself somewhat on Achilles tendon biology, I simply can't find any correlation between heavy minutes and an Achilles rupture, nor any substantive medical research to support it either. In the "real" world, age does seem to be a factor, or rather a combination of age and strenuous activity. But even there, the average age of an NBA player experiencing the injury is 29, which is not significantly different than the average player age. Factor in very heavy historical minutes for earlier eras without corresponding ruptures, and you come to the conclusion that Kobe is an anomaly in terms of a heavy string of minutes and an Achilles rupture. An anomaly of one.
Achilles ruptures tend to be force driven, and while age plays a role, lack of being warmed up and stretched is far more a concern than fatigue. You simply don't fatigue a tendon and weaken it. It tends to be a one time, force applied in a typically north south heave or jolt that rips it, and it happens mostly without warning or prior condition. There is the possibility of small tearing or weakening over time, but again, not something that is going to add up over more minutes as opposed to strong torque events. Kobe could have easily damaged it weight lifting, for example (a high achilles risk BTW with certain lifts), but likely, it was simply the confluence of the exact right force at the exact right ankle that snapped it, and could have just as easily happened at any point in any game.
As with many things MDA related, that doesn't seem to matter. Truth for most people rests in finding an easy place to lay blame, when what happened was simply an occupational hazard. |
Agreed. Of the people I know in my life that have ruptured/torn their achilles as well, none had a particularly unusual amount of "usage" in the days leading up to it either.
One of them did it playing racket ball. But the other did it simply walking down a flight of stairs. |
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LoyalLakerfan44 Star Player
Joined: 09 Jun 2010 Posts: 3219
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Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:09 am Post subject: |
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venturalakersfan wrote: | LoyalLakerfan44 wrote: | D'Antoni brought his system from Europe where most players are not very talented or athletic, and offensively the requirements are fast ball movement and quick shooting in order to get open shots. Lot of quick pick n rolls, pick n pops and the use of good 3pt shooting skills.
Horrible fit with great one on one players like Kobe, MJ, and centers that score inside with their back to the basket. He never understood this kind of game and wanted a more point guard oriented fast paced game.
How the Lakers didn't see how bad a fit this was, I could never understand.
His chances as an NBA coach are great if he's got a great pg, a bunch of very good outside shooters and a mobile center. He'd fit the Warriors type players like a glove.
Has no idea of how to use players with different skill sets, very poor adaptability and thus a one minded coach.
Byron on the other hand can use centers, point guards, power forwards to a more slow down one on one type game. The old school American type basketball. |
Way old school, not something that works in today's NBA. |
All it will take is one talented big man that dominates with his back to the basket and this MDA chucking system will go down the drain. |
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