Joined: 21 Feb 2008 Posts: 28431 Location: LA --> Bay Area
Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:16 pm Post subject: Is Blake Griffin Evidence That Players Don't Work Hard Enough?
Ok so don't kill me, but last night I watched the Clippers game and Blake has improved his game in an insane way. He was draining long twos and threes like Klay Thompson and his shot looked way improved, much like Anthony Davis' in fact.
The Clippers announcer said that Blake started working the day after they were eliminated, doing drills with a shooting coach for hours a day every day all summer, which got me thinking. Most NBA guys take huge vacations after the season and come back to training camp out of shape/ with a bit rust. Even Kobe was a bit flabby coming into some years.
My question is this, and it stems to guys like Jordan Hill, Wes Johnson, Lin, and other busts we've collected. Do they just not put in the work required to tap their potential?
I know we keep getting that story of Hill shooting thousands of jumpers, but did he do it with a shooting coach? For hours a day? In the form of various drills? Starting right after the season ended? I doubt it. It looks like he just took the set shot he already had and took it from 10 feet to 17.
I know there's a reason guys like Blake are so few and far between, but his progress from brickmaster supreme to Reggie Miller lite has me intrigued. It makes me question why we rarely ever see that kind of improvement in other players with terrible shooting mechanics/outside shooting in general.
Hopefully Randle could some how replicate this. It wouldn't be a bad investment for the Lakers to hire him a shooting coach. Bob Tate said when it's all said and done Blake will be one of the best shooters in the entire league.
Not saying Blake hasn't worked on his perimeter game (I'm sure he has), but their team is good enough for him to get a lot of open opportunities - all he has to do is drain them. Blake also has a lot of natural talent. He has so much athleticism that if players get close, he'll drive by them easily. He's obviously one of the best finishers in the game.
Drain them in May. Happens every year. In fact this guy was getting MVP consideration one year ago. They won 17 or 18 in a row one December too. The way their fans and announcers talk they better deliver in the playoffs to back up that talk. As for Blake, never liked him. The most physical player in the league throws his body around soon as someone touches him he flails and head jerks and falls to the ground. And he constantly complains to the officials , can't stand him
If you have a hidden talent you can obviously make it arise by working hard. But as strange as it seems in pro players, there are certain guys who have great, NBA caliber talents in certain categories of the game, but who also are bad, amateur in others.
Look at Rubio. He´s been reportedly working like a donkey for years in order to improve his outside shooting, but his style and efectiveness are completely amateur. Or Howard. He´s been working very hard with Hakeem, but his moves, although explosive, are predictable and limited. He simply is not a natural post player. He´s huge and incredibly athletic, and that´s it.
Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 5:44 pm Post subject: Re: Is Blake Griffin Evidence That Players Don't Work Hard Enough?
Don Draper wrote:
I know there's a reason guys like Blake are so few and far between, but his progress from brickmaster supreme to Reggie Miller lite has me intrigued. It makes me question why we rarely ever see that kind of improvement in other players with terrible shooting mechanics/outside shooting in general.
In the case of Griffin, you have a guy who had all-star caliber skills without an outside shot. He didn't have the motivation to work on the rest of his game. He had fame and celebrity just as a dunker. Starting last year, I was impressed by the fact that he had obviously grown up and decided that he really wanted to be a basketball player.
I agree with your premise, though. You don't expect many players to have the sort of work ethic that we see in Kobe, and that we once saw in MJ and Hakeem. Not very many people are wired that way. But a lot of players don't seem to have the drive to maximize their skills, even to a more reasonable degree. Sure, as Vedanta says, some guys just don't have the innate talent or mindset for certain aspects of the game. (Add Snaq and free throw shooting to the list.) Still, there seem to be a lot of paycheck guys in the league.
Griffin has shown growth in his game every season. His defense is still mediocre. And he still flops way too much (which I think he does intentionally not just to get the fouls called, but also to get a breather in - he always looks gassed out there).
I think if a player has the right mindset, there's always a niche they can carve out in the league. They have to put the work in, and yes, Griffin is an example of that thus far. Players like Jordan Hill finally put in the work this offseason, and we're seeing the dividends of that. Others like JJ Redick and Kyle Korver have found a niche in the league just by working on it over and over until they're known for one good thing (in their cases, that being "knock down shooters").
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 6:32 pm Post subject:
Quote:
My question is this, and it stems to guys like Jordan Hill, Wes Johnson, Lin, and other busts we've collected. Do they just not put in the work required to tap their potential?
I know we keep getting that story of Hill shooting thousands of jumpers, but did he do it with a shooting coach? For hours a day? In the form of various drills? Starting right after the season ended? I doubt it. It looks like he just took the set shot he already had and took it from 10 feet to 17.
This is a complicated series of questions, so I'll answer with what I've observed the past 10 years or so.
Height, hand size, strength, wingspan, stride length. These are all physical tools.
Then there's athletic tools.
So, when a highly recruited player, usually drafted in the lottery is taken into the NBA, the player usually has a varying combination of these physical tools.
What they do with it, makes them athletic clay. Some are "raw" but "instinctual," meaning, they provide positive results considering their limited fundamentals.
Then, there are skill players. These are the guys that have polished, refined skills. Example: Doug McDermott has a jumpshot. Not just any jumpshot, but he has it out to 25' range, off-the-dribble, pull up, off of screens, and spot up shooting.
You know he's worked on this.
But, can he be a much better defender? Playmaker? Rebounder? No. Why? His physical tools aren't as great as other NBA players, generally speaking. Hence, his upside is perceived to be limited.
Then there's Julius Randle. He has a good set of physical tools. But, what happened after the summer pro league and the first couple of games of the preseason?
Defenders were sagging off. Within 2 weeks, he had a resemblance of a mid-range jumpshot out to 21'. There were a couple of games where he looked hot from the perimeter.
So, do NBA players work hard enough? Some do. Some don't. Some work out of their minds, but can't implement it into gametime (Sasha Vujacic) while others can see a move, emulate it in practice, and have immediate impact in the game (Kobe Bryant with left handed shooting, post play, Dreamshake training, etc.)
Blake Griffin didn't work hard enough early. He just stayed in shape. Then last offseason, he woke up.
Contrast that to Anthony Davis. He spent time with Team USA. All of those guys get it. Davis learned early. Now, he's a taller guard than Kevin Durant and is more effective getting to the basket than Durant off-the-dribble.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 6:35 pm Post subject:
Quote:
Jordan Hill, Wes Johnson, Lin
Hill came a long way since he was drafted as a rookie, really. I had zero hope for him when he made it into the league.
The fact that he has any touch on his jumphook is amazing.
Wesley Johnson? Limited ball-handling ability and it's the one skill that is amongst the most difficult to work on. Perimeter shooting is streaky because his shot pocket has flaws. He pulls too far back on his shot and his elbow sticks out far too much. Has all of the athletic tools and then some, yet, you don't see the elite defense or 40% 3-point perimeter shooting.
Lin? Tall for a guard, above average quickness. Not fast. Doesn't jump high. Average wingspan. The fact that he's a borderline starter is actually the result of years of hard work. Why? Because other Laker guards have had better physical tools, and yet Lin is the better driver and finisher. His defense has gotten better. He has always been a playmaker.
Wait until he actually has rhythm with his 3. You'll see 40% 3-point shooting. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
Joined: 21 Feb 2008 Posts: 28431 Location: LA --> Bay Area
Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 7:39 pm Post subject:
Thanks for the replies Mike, very illuminating. This seems like a stupid thing to point out based on everything you wrote, but is Lin really that tall for a guard? He seems about 6'1.5" maybe barefoot, especially comparing him to Kobe who's just barely scraping 6'5" barefoot himself.
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35811 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 8:10 pm Post subject:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:
Jordan Hill, Wes Johnson, Lin
Hill came a long way since he was drafted as a rookie, really. I had zero hope for him when he made it into the league.
The fact that he has any touch on his jumphook is amazing.
Wesley Johnson? Limited ball-handling ability and it's the one skill that is amongst the most difficult to work on. Perimeter shooting is streaky because his shot pocket has flaws. He pulls too far back on his shot and his elbow sticks out far too much. Has all of the athletic tools and then some, yet, you don't see the elite defense or 40% 3-point perimeter shooting.
Lin? Tall for a guard, above average quickness. Not fast. Doesn't jump high. Average wingspan. The fact that he's a borderline starter is actually the result of years of hard work. Why? Because other Laker guards have had better physical tools, and yet Lin is the better driver and finisher. His defense has gotten better. He has always been a playmaker.
Wait until he actually has rhythm with his 3. You'll see 40% 3-point shooting.
What's the difference between quickness and fastness? _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
Hill came a long way since he was drafted as a rookie, really. I had zero hope for him when he made it into the league.
The fact that he has any touch on his jumphook is amazing.
Wesley Johnson? Limited ball-handling ability and it's the one skill that is amongst the most difficult to work on. Perimeter shooting is streaky because his shot pocket has flaws. He pulls too far back on his shot and his elbow sticks out far too much. Has all of the athletic tools and then some, yet, you don't see the elite defense or 40% 3-point perimeter shooting.
Lin? Tall for a guard, above average quickness. Not fast. Doesn't jump high. Average wingspan. The fact that he's a borderline starter is actually the result of years of hard work. Why? Because other Laker guards have had better physical tools, and yet Lin is the better driver and finisher. His defense has gotten better. He has always been a playmaker.
Wait until he actually has rhythm with his 3. You'll see 40% 3-point shooting.
What's the difference between quickness and fastness?
Fast is end to end speed. Quickness is first step, getting around a corner, etc. Ariza before his foot injury was very fast but not quick.
The player that irks me the most is Rajon Rondo. How can you be a guard and not develop a respectable jump shot? Remember Kobe sagging off to the FT line when Rondo was at the 3 point line during the 2010 Finals? _________________ Double rings > Double rainbow
I remember Trevor Ariza developing a jump shot in his first off-season with the Lakers because Kobe gave me the "shooting bible". To me, shooting seems like the easiest aspect of your game to develop _________________ Double rings > Double rainbow
I remember Trevor Ariza developing a jump shot in his first off-season with the Lakers because Kobe gave me the "shooting bible". To me, shooting seems like the easiest aspect of your game to develop
One of the most human things is that people don't really try until they learn they need to by facing failure. Blake Griffin probably did not face real difficulty in playing well until the NBA. THen he starts working on his weaknesses.
There are a lot of super talented and athletic players who just don't work on their games much. They grow up dominating by getting to the basket or outjumping everyone for rebounds and slam dunks. Then they get to the nba and can't do that much at all and they have to adapt, but don't have the skills to. Certain guys cultivate this by having a special personality or by having a really good college experience. Less people are playing throughout college and so they come into the league incomplete.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:49 am Post subject:
24KaratGold wrote:
The player that irks me the most is Rajon Rondo. How can you be a guard and not develop a respectable jump shot? Remember Kobe sagging off to the FT line when Rondo was at the 3 point line during the 2010 Finals?
He has the hands of a power forward and wingspan of a center. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:51 am Post subject:
Don Draper wrote:
Thanks for the replies Mike, very illuminating. This seems like a stupid thing to point out based on everything you wrote, but is Lin really that tall for a guard? He seems about 6'1.5" maybe barefoot, especially comparing him to Kobe who's just barely scraping 6'5" barefoot himself.
6'5" wingspan. It's disappointing to know that a longer wingspan could change his game in terms of protecting the basketball and be a better finisher. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
Blake has improved, but it's not exactly a Jason Kidd transformation, bit more like Duncan, and he's sort of fallen in love with that shot a bit, he's phased it back but he was looking to be dirk early in the year.
His defense is also showing a bit less effort this year. _________________ I believe everything the media tells me except for anything for which I have direct personal knowledge, which they always get wrong
Blake has improved, but it's not exactly a Jason Kidd transformation, bit more like Duncan, and he's sort of fallen in love with that shot a bit, he's phased it back but he was looking to be dirk early in the year.
His defense is also showing a bit less effort this year.
I like what he's doing though. Blake is a freak athlete but he can't just dunk on everybody each possession. He needs a go to move. That jump shot of his will prove to be very reliable. He's not exactly a post up genius. Even Randle has shown better footwork than him.
Defensively, I fear that Blake may never get better. He and Randle both have short arms. I don't think they'll ever be rim protectors. The best they can probably do is to be quick on their feet and be a presence inside like Kenyon Martin.
Last edited by paolomagma on Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:24 am; edited 1 time in total
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