Is Blake Griffin Evidence That Players Don't Work Hard Enough?
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xxsicrokerxx
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:02 am    Post subject:

"He was draining long twos and threes like Klay Thompson" Stopped reading right there.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:23 am    Post subject:

xxsicrokerxx wrote:
"He was draining long twos and threes like Klay Thompson" Stopped reading right there.

Don't be so stuck up. That's not the point of this thread. Yes, It's an exaggeration but if you've actually seen Blake Griffin play this year there's no denying that his shot has improved dramatically.
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Steve007
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:59 pm    Post subject:

Yes he is evidence that players don't work hard enough. I even remember Shaq making free throws back in 2000 late in the season after he spent several months working with a shooting coach. This is why people look at Shaq and wonder how good he would have been if he was more dedicated to the game.

It's also a huge reason why I question Dwight Howard so much.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:03 pm    Post subject:

xxsicrokerxx wrote:
"He was draining long twos and threes like Klay Thompson" Stopped reading right there.


Yeah I think that's an exaggeration, but if you watched Blake around 2 years ago he looked like Dwight Howard at the line. He was 52% from the line in 2012. And his jumper looked horrible.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:18 pm    Post subject:

vedanta wrote:
If you have a hidden talent you can obviously make it arise by working hard. But as strange as it seems in pro players, there are certain guys who have great, NBA caliber talents in certain categories of the game, but who also are bad, amateur in others.

Look at Rubio. He´s been reportedly working like a donkey for years in order to improve his outside shooting, but his style and efectiveness are completely amateur. Or Howard. He´s been working very hard with Hakeem, but his moves, although explosive, are predictable and limited. He simply is not a natural post player. He´s huge and incredibly athletic, and that´s it.


Howard would be a much greater threat if he just improved his free throw shooting. I think he would benefit more from fixing that weakness than he would from improving his play in the post.

If Howard has been working very hard with Hakeem, then why would his moves be predictable and limited? To me that sounds like something I would expect from a guy who either hasn't been working hard enough, or lacks talent, and I don't think of Howard as being a guy who isn't talented enough. The only other possibility I can think of is maybe Howard is really stupid and that's why he hasn't shown greater improvement.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:23 pm    Post subject:

xxsicrokerxx wrote:
"He was draining long twos and threes like Klay Thompson" Stopped reading right there.


It's a minor exaggeration for the game I watched, maybe a major exaggeration overall. But that's what it looked like. Rolling off screens, getting the pass, pulling up all in one fluid motion. His shot form even sort of reminds me of Klay's now as he no longer has a hitch.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Is Blake Griffin Evidence That Players Don't Work Hard Enough?

Don Draper wrote:
Ok so don't kill me, but last night I watched the Clippers game and Blake has improved his game in an insane way. He was draining long twos and threes like Klay Thompson and his shot looked way improved, much like Anthony Davis' in fact.

The Clippers announcer said that Blake started working the day after they were eliminated, doing drills with a shooting coach for hours a day every day all summer, which got me thinking. Most NBA guys take huge vacations after the season and come back to training camp out of shape/ with a bit rust. Even Kobe was a bit flabby coming into some years.

My question is this, and it stems to guys like Jordan Hill, Wes Johnson, Lin, and other busts we've collected. Do they just not put in the work required to tap their potential?

I know we keep getting that story of Hill shooting thousands of jumpers, but did he do it with a shooting coach? For hours a day? In the form of various drills? Starting right after the season ended? I doubt it. It looks like he just took the set shot he already had and took it from 10 feet to 17.

I know there's a reason guys like Blake are so few and far between, but his progress from brickmaster supreme to Reggie Miller lite has me intrigued. It makes me question why we rarely ever see that kind of improvement in other players with terrible shooting mechanics/outside shooting in general.


I think there are some, but not enough. Blake is one of the exceptions. Ramona has mentioned that when she is covering Clipper games Blake is always asking her about Kobe's workouts and what he does. As was mentioned in this thread, I hope Randle works that hard.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:07 pm    Post subject:

Steve007 wrote:
vedanta wrote:
If you have a hidden talent you can obviously make it arise by working hard. But as strange as it seems in pro players, there are certain guys who have great, NBA caliber talents in certain categories of the game, but who also are bad, amateur in others.

Look at Rubio. He´s been reportedly working like a donkey for years in order to improve his outside shooting, but his style and efectiveness are completely amateur. Or Howard. He´s been working very hard with Hakeem, but his moves, although explosive, are predictable and limited. He simply is not a natural post player. He´s huge and incredibly athletic, and that´s it.


Howard would be a much greater threat if he just improved his free throw shooting. I think he would benefit more from fixing that weakness than he would from improving his play in the post.

If Howard has been working very hard with Hakeem, then why would his moves be predictable and limited? To me that sounds like something I would expect from a guy who either hasn't been working hard enough, or lacks talent, and I don't think of Howard as being a guy who isn't talented enough. The only other possibility I can think of is maybe Howard is really stupid and that's why he hasn't shown greater improvement.


His touch is awful, so basically every post move needs him to come within 5 feet of the basket, you can probably get a 50% conversion out of him if you just force him to take the shot at 8 feet, even if you don't contest it at all, his moves are fine, he gets decent shots out of them, but the league doesn't reward you for the aesthetics (they jhave 2 guys who post a lot, dwight and dmo, dwighht gets closer and easier shots and converts at about 40%, Dmo can hit his shots with either hand out to 10 feet and converts at about 60%), plus the league just doesn't allow people to push their way in, as a defender, you just need to anchor your feet and let him push you over.

At the same time, there are quite a few teams that can't defend the post at all, and others who his ability to get fouled often sits their defensive anchor down (and makes them incredibly tentative about challenging Harden) and topples the defense.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:11 pm    Post subject:

SGVL1 wrote:
Drain them in May. Happens every year. In fact this guy was getting MVP consideration one year ago. They won 17 or 18 in a row one December too. The way their fans and announcers talk they better deliver in the playoffs to back up that talk. As for Blake, never liked him. The most physical player in the league throws his body around soon as someone touches him he flails and head jerks and falls to the ground. And he constantly complains to the officials , can't stand him


I don't think he was getting MVP consideration this early last season. The year they won 17 in a row he wasn't even close to being the same player he is now. That team relied a lot more on Chris Paul.

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The way their fans and announcers talk they better deliver in the playoffs to back up that talk.


Lol or else what?

Fans of every team talk. We did a lot of talking on this forum after Nash and Howard became Lakers. I saw a lot of bold talking in the 2008 finals here against Boston before that series ended in a disaster. And over the years I've seen big talk from fans of teams that never won anything, like Suns fans in 2010.

I expect the Clippers to fall short though. The West is too hard and they are not one of the two best teams in the conference. If they were in the East then I could see them getting somewhere. But I'd say the same thing about the top 8-9 teams in the West. That's how much better I think the West is. It's also one reason I don't expect Howard to win anything.


Last edited by Steve007 on Wed Dec 10, 2014 9:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:40 pm    Post subject:

It's a combination of physical ability, mindset and aptitude.

I would think its unlikely most players have all 3.

You put an elite status of all 3 together and you get Kobe. Throw in some good fortune with regards to injury too.

Of course it's having the attributes and utilizing early enough in your life, especially as an athlete.

I'm sure there are many players who practices the wrong stuff and practice it incorrectly.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:48 am    Post subject: Re: Is Blake Griffin Evidence That Players Don't Work Hard Enough?

Don Draper wrote:
Ok so don't kill me, but last night I watched the Clippers game and Blake has improved his game in an insane way. He was draining long twos and threes like Klay Thompson and his shot looked way improved, much like Anthony Davis' in fact.

The Clippers announcer said that Blake started working the day after they were eliminated, doing drills with a shooting coach for hours a day every day all summer, which got me thinking. Most NBA guys take huge vacations after the season and come back to training camp out of shape/ with a bit rust. Even Kobe was a bit flabby coming into some years.

My question is this, and it stems to guys like Jordan Hill, Wes Johnson, Lin, and other busts we've collected. Do they just not put in the work required to tap their potential?

I know we keep getting that story of Hill shooting thousands of jumpers, but did he do it with a shooting coach? For hours a day? In the form of various drills? Starting right after the season ended? I doubt it. It looks like he just took the set shot he already had and took it from 10 feet to 17.

I know there's a reason guys like Blake are so few and far between, but his progress from brickmaster supreme to Reggie Miller lite has me intrigued. It makes me question why we rarely ever see that kind of improvement in other players with terrible shooting mechanics/outside shooting in general.


"it stems to guys like Jordan Hill, Wes Johnson, Lin, and other busts we've collected"

Well, the Lakers acquired so many guys who can't shoot to begin with, on the cheap for the most part due to it, it should come as no shock that these players haven't combined well. Too many bricklayers together.

Radical improvement in shooting efficiency (perimeter and mid-range games) is actually pretty rare stuff to see hold up long term. Going from brick-master to Miller-Lite for part of a season is one thing, but maintaining a high level of statistical accuracy is tough stuff. I don't anticipate this phase to last long for Griff.

I think of guys who did improve accuracy steadily in the NBA (Arron Afflalo, for example) that aslo experience so many role changes and team changes that the stats don't bear out the improvement the way (i.e., continuity) one might expect.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Is Blake Griffin Evidence That Players Don't Work Hard Enough?

70sdude wrote:
Don Draper wrote:
Ok so don't kill me, but last night I watched the Clippers game and Blake has improved his game in an insane way. He was draining long twos and threes like Klay Thompson and his shot looked way improved, much like Anthony Davis' in fact.

The Clippers announcer said that Blake started working the day after they were eliminated, doing drills with a shooting coach for hours a day every day all summer, which got me thinking. Most NBA guys take huge vacations after the season and come back to training camp out of shape/ with a bit rust. Even Kobe was a bit flabby coming into some years.

My question is this, and it stems to guys like Jordan Hill, Wes Johnson, Lin, and other busts we've collected. Do they just not put in the work required to tap their potential?

I know we keep getting that story of Hill shooting thousands of jumpers, but did he do it with a shooting coach? For hours a day? In the form of various drills? Starting right after the season ended? I doubt it. It looks like he just took the set shot he already had and took it from 10 feet to 17.

I know there's a reason guys like Blake are so few and far between, but his progress from brickmaster supreme to Reggie Miller lite has me intrigued. It makes me question why we rarely ever see that kind of improvement in other players with terrible shooting mechanics/outside shooting in general.


"it stems to guys like Jordan Hill, Wes Johnson, Lin, and other busts we've collected"

Well, the Lakers acquired so many guys who can't shoot to begin with, on the cheap for the most part due to it, it should come as no shock that these players haven't combined well. Too many bricklayers together.

Radical improvement in shooting efficiency (perimeter and mid-range games) is actually pretty rare stuff to see hold up long term. Going from brick-master to Miller-Lite for part of a season is one thing, but maintaining a high level of statistical accuracy is tough stuff. I don't anticipate this phase to last long for Griff.

I think of guys who did improve accuracy steadily in the NBA (Arron Afflalo, for example) that aslo experience so many role changes and team changes that the stats don't bear out the improvement the way (i.e., continuity) one might expect.


This isn't something new for Griffin. This is the third year in a row I've seen his shot improve. And if you watch him more closely the difference is so huge it's amazing. Guys like Dwight Howard and Kwame Brown don't start taking the shots that he takes, and they don't start making them for as long as he has.

I remember reading a scouting report 2-3 years ago that said sometimes you watch Blake and wonder how he is even in the league. I agreed at the time. That's how bad I thought he looked sometimes. I'd never think that today.

And players do improve their shooting. Guys like Steve Nash weren't born that way. I watched video of Kobe when he was 19 about a year ago and his shooting was clearly much worse. Also, a lot of players won't work that hard on their shooting. That's why they don't improve as much as they could.

I wonder how much he practices flopping.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Is Blake Griffin Evidence That Players Don't Work Hard Enough?

Steve007 wrote:
70sdude wrote:
Don Draper wrote:
Ok so don't kill me, but last night I watched the Clippers game and Blake has improved his game in an insane way. He was draining long twos and threes like Klay Thompson and his shot looked way improved, much like Anthony Davis' in fact.

The Clippers announcer said that Blake started working the day after they were eliminated, doing drills with a shooting coach for hours a day every day all summer, which got me thinking. Most NBA guys take huge vacations after the season and come back to training camp out of shape/ with a bit rust. Even Kobe was a bit flabby coming into some years.

My question is this, and it stems to guys like Jordan Hill, Wes Johnson, Lin, and other busts we've collected. Do they just not put in the work required to tap their potential?

I know we keep getting that story of Hill shooting thousands of jumpers, but did he do it with a shooting coach? For hours a day? In the form of various drills? Starting right after the season ended? I doubt it. It looks like he just took the set shot he already had and took it from 10 feet to 17.

I know there's a reason guys like Blake are so few and far between, but his progress from brickmaster supreme to Reggie Miller lite has me intrigued. It makes me question why we rarely ever see that kind of improvement in other players with terrible shooting mechanics/outside shooting in general.


"it stems to guys like Jordan Hill, Wes Johnson, Lin, and other busts we've collected"

Well, the Lakers acquired so many guys who can't shoot to begin with, on the cheap for the most part due to it, it should come as no shock that these players haven't combined well. Too many bricklayers together.

Radical improvement in shooting efficiency (perimeter and mid-range games) is actually pretty rare stuff to see hold up long term. Going from brick-master to Miller-Lite for part of a season is one thing, but maintaining a high level of statistical accuracy is tough stuff. I don't anticipate this phase to last long for Griff.

I think of guys who did improve accuracy steadily in the NBA (Arron Afflalo, for example) that aslo experience so many role changes and team changes that the stats don't bear out the improvement the way (i.e., continuity) one might expect.


This isn't something new for Griffin. This is the third year in a row I've seen his shot improve. And if you watch him more closely the difference is so huge it's amazing. Guys like Dwight Howard and Kwame Brown don't start taking the shots that he takes, and they don't start making them for as long as he has.

I remember reading a scouting report 2-3 years ago that said sometimes you watch Blake and wonder how he is even in the league. I agreed at the time. That's how bad I thought he looked sometimes. I'd never think that today.

And players do improve their shooting. Guys like Steve Nash weren't born that way. I watched video of Kobe when he was 19 about a year ago and his shooting was clearly much worse. Also, a lot of players won't work that hard on their shooting. That's why they don't improve as much as they could.

I wonder how much he practices flopping.


The improvement in his shot and overall game reminds me of the transformation Malone made. Malone obviously wasn't the athlete Blake was but the point is still the same. Both guys couldn't hit the side of the barn at the line or from the perimeter coming into the league. By the end of his career, Malone was just deadly from that elbow jumper.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Is Blake Griffin Evidence That Players Don't Work Hard Enough?

jonnybravo wrote:
Steve007 wrote:
70sdude wrote:
Don Draper wrote:
Ok so don't kill me, but last night I watched the Clippers game and Blake has improved his game in an insane way. He was draining long twos and threes like Klay Thompson and his shot looked way improved, much like Anthony Davis' in fact.

The Clippers announcer said that Blake started working the day after they were eliminated, doing drills with a shooting coach for hours a day every day all summer, which got me thinking. Most NBA guys take huge vacations after the season and come back to training camp out of shape/ with a bit rust. Even Kobe was a bit flabby coming into some years.

My question is this, and it stems to guys like Jordan Hill, Wes Johnson, Lin, and other busts we've collected. Do they just not put in the work required to tap their potential?

I know we keep getting that story of Hill shooting thousands of jumpers, but did he do it with a shooting coach? For hours a day? In the form of various drills? Starting right after the season ended? I doubt it. It looks like he just took the set shot he already had and took it from 10 feet to 17.

I know there's a reason guys like Blake are so few and far between, but his progress from brickmaster supreme to Reggie Miller lite has me intrigued. It makes me question why we rarely ever see that kind of improvement in other players with terrible shooting mechanics/outside shooting in general.


"it stems to guys like Jordan Hill, Wes Johnson, Lin, and other busts we've collected"

Well, the Lakers acquired so many guys who can't shoot to begin with, on the cheap for the most part due to it, it should come as no shock that these players haven't combined well. Too many bricklayers together.

Radical improvement in shooting efficiency (perimeter and mid-range games) is actually pretty rare stuff to see hold up long term. Going from brick-master to Miller-Lite for part of a season is one thing, but maintaining a high level of statistical accuracy is tough stuff. I don't anticipate this phase to last long for Griff.

I think of guys who did improve accuracy steadily in the NBA (Arron Afflalo, for example) that aslo experience so many role changes and team changes that the stats don't bear out the improvement the way (i.e., continuity) one might expect.


This isn't something new for Griffin. This is the third year in a row I've seen his shot improve. And if you watch him more closely the difference is so huge it's amazing. Guys like Dwight Howard and Kwame Brown don't start taking the shots that he takes, and they don't start making them for as long as he has.

I remember reading a scouting report 2-3 years ago that said sometimes you watch Blake and wonder how he is even in the league. I agreed at the time. That's how bad I thought he looked sometimes. I'd never think that today.

And players do improve their shooting. Guys like Steve Nash weren't born that way. I watched video of Kobe when he was 19 about a year ago and his shooting was clearly much worse. Also, a lot of players won't work that hard on their shooting. That's why they don't improve as much as they could.

I wonder how much he practices flopping.


The improvement in his shot and overall game reminds me of the transformation Malone made. Malone obviously wasn't the athlete Blake was but the point is still the same. Both guys couldn't hit the side of the barn at the line or from the perimeter coming into the league. By the end of his career, Malone was just deadly from that elbow jumper.


it bodes well for him as he ages, but as of right now, he draws fouls at over double the rate of any other player in the post and generates almost double the points per possession, which is why the clippers probably don't want him falling in love with that jumper. Adding an extra wrinkle is always good (but i question going from horrible to awful to bad and then relying on that bad skill because its better than horrible and awful), but his shot is never going to be Dirk, and he's certainly had games where his shot chart looks like an attempt at it. If he was still trying to play the game like he did last year (the odd jumper, but the vast majority is going interior) and just benefit from the improved free throw shooting, he'd probably be the current leader for mvp, instead he's basically in the afterthought group.
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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 2:42 pm    Post subject:

Griffin, the new Klay Thompson!
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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 3:11 pm    Post subject:

Part of the problem is, players are who they are.
For example, Young can practice D, but he'll never be an elite defender unless he completely changes his lifestyle. Needs to drop weight and change his overall disposition toward the game (which involves a mentality that extends off the court).

The players who are here on one year deals don't care about improving to help the franchise. They just want to show their value (what their good at) and get a long term deal from someone.

Another part of the problem is stability. The few players we've kept in the last 2-3 years have had two polar opposite coaching philosophies to deal with. Hard to improve when your expected to do different things by different coaches.
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