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wolfpaclaker
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 Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not sure of the exact nature or list of who could have been had with Jordan Hill money - or the Lin trade (Salary dump by HOU). So lets say they got better players than that, but not stars, just better players.
Instead of say 25 wins we wind up with what 35? Is that really better? We at least have a shot in hell at a top 5 pick right now. Not sure if signing Stephenson and/or Thomas makes us any better in the long run. I'd say those moves add 10 wins to our non-playoff finish.
I love what Magic said. You either want to be at the top/ be in position to get to the top, or right at the bottom where you attain draft picks that can be used to get a lot better via trade or selecting the right players in the draft.
| Quote: | | Even in the early to mid 90s we tried our best to compete. |
Because while Magic had the sudden retirement to HIV (Unforseen) we had drafted well already and kept the 1st round picks to keep adding. And we had 1 year we were really bad - got Eddie Jones out of it. But it's a different league now. You want stars like we wanted - you got to give picks. We loaded up the team with Dwight (1 pick and Bynum) Gasol (2008 and 2010 picks) and Nash (2013 and 2015 picks) but lost a lot of what made the 92-96 team competitive. Recall Vlade, Eddie and NVE were all drafted.
It is what it is. It sucks, but I don't think the Lakers don't have a plan. I just think the plan can't realistically be executed until the elephant in the room (Kobe, Kobe contract) is no longer there. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Cancun Van Exel wrote: |
Dude you are preaching to the choir on that one. Obvious mistake to extend Kobe in that manner and yes I naturally wanted to not only accelerate the path to contention, I wanted to continue contending, which would have happened if we hired PJ so we could build around Dwight (yes, let Kobe go) and make another run at CP3 in 2013.
Jim Buss liked this plan better I guess. I wonder how the head honchos at TWC are feeling about their investment right about now  |
TWC is making a lot of money on that investment. Almost every competing cable company is paying them for the right to broadcast the Lakers.
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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Wilkes52
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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English is a funny language. She says she's not hearing of a vision.
But seriously, perhaps Mitch and the Buss family has rethought Shelburne's relationship with the club. Perhaps they've begun filtering out some of the more key strategic planning elements from their pipeline to her.
If true, that might be the first really smart thing Jim & Co has done lately. I kinda like the idea of using the media the way Jerry West did, with semi-incoherent ramblings to the press, while keeping his knife sharp for deal-making quietly. Let's hope the Laker FO is reverting to the rather more secretive style of GM Jerry West and Buss Sr.  |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Wilkes52 wrote: | English is a funny language. She says she's not hearing of a vision.
But seriously, perhaps Mitch and the Buss family has rethought Shelburne's relationship with the club. Perhaps they've begun filtering out some of the more key strategic planning elements from their pipeline to her.
If true, that might be the first really smart thing Jim & Co has done lately. I kinda like the idea of using the media the way Jerry West did, with semi-incoherent ramblings to the press, while keeping his knife sharp for deal-making quietly. Let's hope the Laker FO is reverting to the rather more secretive style of GM Jerry West and Buss Sr. |
That seems to be the plan. Jeanie makes alternately positive, confusing, conflicting, or meaningless statements about who is in charge and what the plan is, jim says virtually nothing, and mitch speaks intelligently for ten minutes before you realize he hasn't told you a thing.
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“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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Cancun Van Exel
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | Cancun Van Exel wrote: |
Dude you are preaching to the choir on that one. Obvious mistake to extend Kobe in that manner and yes I naturally wanted to not only accelerate the path to contention, I wanted to continue contending, which would have happened if we hired PJ so we could build around Dwight (yes, let Kobe go) and make another run at CP3 in 2013.
Jim Buss liked this plan better I guess. I wonder how the head honchos at TWC are feeling about their investment right about now |
TWC is making a lot of money on that investment. Almost every competing cable company is paying them for the right to broadcast the Lakers. |
If the $3 billion for 20 years is accurate, they need to be recouping $150 Million a year (!) to break even  You could be right, but it sure seems like a lot
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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Do we actually know how much Time Warner is making off that investment? Just curious if the numbers are posted somewhere.
I wonder how many people watch TWC beyond the Laker games. I know I mainly watch the games plus the occasional rewind or special but that's it. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | Do we actually know how much Time Warner is making off that investment? Just curious if the numbers are posted somewhere.
I wonder how many people watch TWC beyond the Laker games. I know I mainly watch the games plus the occasional rewind or special but that's it. |
How many people watch Direct TV? And Comcast? And Fios? Because those people are paying Time Warner as well.
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Cancun Van Exel
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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The advertising dollars fluctuate based on ratings, which are most likely tied to the success of the team.
They're not making as much as they thought so far I'm assuming, if they are making money. When they signed the deal, the Lakers were still good, with a stacked roster. lol
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | Do we actually know how much Time Warner is making off that investment? Just curious if the numbers are posted somewhere.
I wonder how many people watch TWC beyond the Laker games. I know I mainly watch the games plus the occasional rewind or special but that's it. |
The get $150 million a year from Direct TV alone.
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jodeke
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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Jim said he has a three year plan. He said if it doesn't come to fruition he'll step aside. I'm in the wait and see mode.
Looking on from the outside I see cap space building, 1 year contracts, keep the best, good rookie choice, possibility of keeping our first round choice.
Next year isn't it, following year is.
I'm glad the FO isn't in the win now mode.
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Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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laker4life
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | Jim said he has a three year plan. He said if it doesn't come to fruition he'll step aside. I'm in the wait and see mode.
Looking on from the outside I see cap space building, 1 year contracts, keep the best, good rookie choice, possibility of keeping our first round choice.
Next year isn't it, following year is.
I'm glad the FO isn't in the win now mode. |
In 3 years, the teams such as the Warriors, Kings, Timberwolves, Jazzs, 76ers, Suns, Clippers and Pelicans will be ahead of us.
That is why we are almost last place. Unless we can lucky and I mean lucky, we are going to be in this position for a long time.
Jim Buss was simply way over his head.
When you hear Ramona during this segment, she specifically states that she does not agree with the tanking strategy because it is not easy and often not successful.
Personally i think that you have to respect her opinion. Whether it will be proven, that is not to be decided for the next few years. |
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MJST
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:00 am Post subject: |
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| laker4life wrote: | she compared our situation by talking about how Phil faced the New York media for like 30 minutes to discuss his vision. Phil answered alot of these questions, etc.
She commented the Lakers are not doing that now. Who is the voice of the Lakers she asked.
Interesting commetns. |
Maybe she should look at what the Knicks are doing right now, how the players are rebelling against Phil, saying they hate the triangle and want a new system and how Phil is saying they have a losers mentality.
All the stuff Phil talked about vision is crumbling within a single season.
The Lakers have always kept their cards close to chest and most of the time people didn't even know about a trade happening till the second before it did.
Ramona acting like this is something new, or something only Jim has done pretty much only shows how they're reaching for a story.
The Lakers have never gone out of their way to hold press conferences discussing their visions yet to happen. They don't reveal jack squat and it's been that way for years.
Ramona's way off base here because she really doesn't know anything, because the Lakers aren't going to leak it. Jeanie knows the vision and Kobe knows the vision. Ramona won't cause Ramona isn't that important.
So she adds to a story, and once again, compares it to how "phil did his business"
Phil also traded Tyson Chandler for Samuel Dalembert, shall we sweep that under the rug?
Anyway, it's the same old same old from the ESPN reporters we should come to expect by now when they have no real story.
Her basis for saying the Lakers have no direction is pretty much on the lines of "well I haven't heard anything.."
and you never will Ramona. |
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Darkndeep
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:49 am Post subject: |
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| How much "vision" can you disclose when it's not clear who will be free agents going forward and you cannot talk to them until they are? Obviously, the Lakers "plan," as always, is to build around superstars--that's why they are not tying their payroll up in schmucks, you fill in the role players once you have and complementary to the superstars--and if they have had communications with targeted superstars, they cannot come out and say it or they would be nailed for tampering. I'm placing my faith in the FO and Lakers allure--they have always worked in the past, they will again. |
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fansincemagic
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CabinCreek44
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:56 am Post subject: |
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Mitch was groomed for many years by the best in the business. He stole Pau Gasol. He had Chris Paul until David Stern screwed the organization. He acquired Dwight Howard, it couldn't be helped that he is a fraud. Yes, Jim Buss is the de facto boss, but the guess here is that he doesn't buck Mitch too much.
Mitch's worst move was the Steve Nash deal. But that hasn't destroyed the organization.
The salary cap/lux tax is designed to restrict player movement and keep the rich teams from loading up on all the good players, and that's exactly what it's done and will continue to do. The Lakers are sitting in a good position to compete for top free agents going forward, and that's a good place for them to be. Sooner or later, someone is going to bite.
Meanwhile, I'm getting a kick out of Phil in New York. He's starting to understand how difficult it is to run an NBA franchise. After his years of undermining/backstabbing excellent NBA execs who put the talent in place that he won championships with, it's a nice comeuppance. Now he's sitting in that seat and it's not quite the same as coaching all-time great players. |
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Birmingham
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:55 am Post subject: |
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| lakersken80 wrote: | | Guess she'll be out of a job soon when ESPN realizes she can't get any dirt from the Laker organization. |
Far from it.
She's appearing on more ESPN outlets by the day.
They've clearly earmarked her as the new Chosen One.
Better suited for radio though if you ask me.
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/2RT7EvvuuiA/maxresdefault.jpg |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:08 am Post subject: |
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| CabinCreek44 wrote: | Mitch was groomed for many years by the best in the business. He stole Pau Gasol. He had Chris Paul until David Stern screwed the organization. He acquired Dwight Howard, it couldn't be helped that he is a fraud. Yes, Jim Buss is the de facto boss, but the guess here is that he doesn't buck Mitch too much.
Mitch's worst move was the Steve Nash deal. But that hasn't destroyed the organization.
The salary cap/lux tax is designed to restrict player movement and keep the rich teams from loading up on all the good players, and that's exactly what it's done and will continue to do. The Lakers are sitting in a good position to compete for top free agents going forward, and that's a good place for them to be. Sooner or later, someone is going to bite.
Meanwhile, I'm getting a kick out of Phil in New York. He's starting to understand how difficult it is to run an NBA franchise. After his years of undermining/backstabbing excellent NBA execs who put the talent in place that he won championships with, it's a nice comeuppance. Now he's sitting in that seat and it's not quite the same as coaching all-time great players. |
The salary cap/luxury tax structure also strongly encourages blended teams, i.e., vets and rookies. Miami was a product of the previous CBA (and they fortuitously came together before this iteration of the CBA), and it was a good run, but only 4 years due to various factors.
Spurs probably are the paragon of the new CBA. Vet players (Duncan, Manu, TP) and a stud young player (Kahwai). If the Lakers want to load up on vets only, then the "run" will likely be a shorter shelf life (though we have Randle in the mix). I hope we can get a top 5 pick and pursue both (another young stud and a top free agent).
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Laker_Town
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:16 am Post subject: |
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Vision:
2014-2015: tank hard and get high pick. Explore any possible trades around expiring contracts or our one year rentals. The aim should be acquiring picks which can be packaged or redeemed later.
2015-2016 : pick up free agent, doesn't have to be a superstar, but someone who can make this team better and will be a part of the rebuild. Win enough games where fans see actually progress and where it slots you high enough that the suns get a late first round pick.
Also, farewell tour for Kobe. |
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CabinCreek44
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:51 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | CabinCreek44 wrote: | Mitch was groomed for many years by the best in the business. He stole Pau Gasol. He had Chris Paul until David Stern screwed the organization. He acquired Dwight Howard, it couldn't be helped that he is a fraud. Yes, Jim Buss is the de facto boss, but the guess here is that he doesn't buck Mitch too much.
Mitch's worst move was the Steve Nash deal. But that hasn't destroyed the organization.
The salary cap/lux tax is designed to restrict player movement and keep the rich teams from loading up on all the good players, and that's exactly what it's done and will continue to do. The Lakers are sitting in a good position to compete for top free agents going forward, and that's a good place for them to be. Sooner or later, someone is going to bite.
Meanwhile, I'm getting a kick out of Phil in New York. He's starting to understand how difficult it is to run an NBA franchise. After his years of undermining/backstabbing excellent NBA execs who put the talent in place that he won championships with, it's a nice comeuppance. Now he's sitting in that seat and it's not quite the same as coaching all-time great players. |
The salary cap/luxury tax structure also strongly encourages blended teams, i.e., vets and rookies. Miami was a product of the previous CBA (and they fortuitously came together before this iteration of the CBA), and it was a good run, but only 4 years due to various factors.
Spurs probably are the paragon of the new CBA. Vet players (Duncan, Manu, TP) and a stud young player (Kahwai). If the Lakers want to load up on vets only, then the "run" will likely be a shorter shelf life (though we have Randle in the mix). I hope we can get a top 5 pick and pursue both (another young stud and a top free agent). |
Agreed.
Spurs are unquestionably a model organization. Their core is getting older and it will be interesting to see how they fare in the years ahead. But their scouting is excellent, it seems they are light years ahead of the Lakers in that department.
That said, Randle was a good pick, but only if he will actually be healthy going forward. He showed some very nice flashes of the kind of player he can be late in the preseason. I see some hope in Clarkson but right now Byron has him in Rookie Hell, which I hope he will release him from at some point so he can get some experience out there.
We should get another good draft pick next spring and hopefully fare a little better in free agency. But I agree with the core principle not to throw franchise player money at just anybody for the sake of making a move. Dr. Buss believed firmly in only paying that kind of money to an actual franchise player. Hopefully Mitch and Jim will continue to adhere to that philosophy.
Whatever happens, this will likely take a couple more years. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:06 am Post subject: |
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| CabinCreek44 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | CabinCreek44 wrote: | Mitch was groomed for many years by the best in the business. He stole Pau Gasol. He had Chris Paul until David Stern screwed the organization. He acquired Dwight Howard, it couldn't be helped that he is a fraud. Yes, Jim Buss is the de facto boss, but the guess here is that he doesn't buck Mitch too much.
Mitch's worst move was the Steve Nash deal. But that hasn't destroyed the organization.
The salary cap/lux tax is designed to restrict player movement and keep the rich teams from loading up on all the good players, and that's exactly what it's done and will continue to do. The Lakers are sitting in a good position to compete for top free agents going forward, and that's a good place for them to be. Sooner or later, someone is going to bite.
Meanwhile, I'm getting a kick out of Phil in New York. He's starting to understand how difficult it is to run an NBA franchise. After his years of undermining/backstabbing excellent NBA execs who put the talent in place that he won championships with, it's a nice comeuppance. Now he's sitting in that seat and it's not quite the same as coaching all-time great players. |
The salary cap/luxury tax structure also strongly encourages blended teams, i.e., vets and rookies. Miami was a product of the previous CBA (and they fortuitously came together before this iteration of the CBA), and it was a good run, but only 4 years due to various factors.
Spurs probably are the paragon of the new CBA. Vet players (Duncan, Manu, TP) and a stud young player (Kahwai). If the Lakers want to load up on vets only, then the "run" will likely be a shorter shelf life (though we have Randle in the mix). I hope we can get a top 5 pick and pursue both (another young stud and a top free agent). |
Agreed.
Spurs are unquestionably a model organization. Their core is getting older and it will be interesting to see how they fare in the years ahead. But their scouting is excellent, it seems they are light years ahead of the Lakers in that department.
That said, Randle was a good pick, but only if he will actually be healthy going forward. He showed some very nice flashes of the kind of player he can be late in the preseason. I see some hope in Clarkson but right now Byron has him in Rookie Hell, which I hope he will release him from at some point so he can get some experience out there.
We should get another good draft pick next spring and hopefully fare a little better in free agency. But I agree with the core principle not to throw franchise player money at just anybody for the sake of making a move. Dr. Buss believed firmly in only paying that kind of money to an actual franchise player. Hopefully Mitch and Jim will continue to adhere to that philosophy.
Whatever happens, this will likely take a couple more years. |
Remember, Spurs also will have salary cap space this summer thanks to Kahwai being a RFA (they will match every offer). So they can conceivably load up with MGasol, re-sign Duncan at a lower $ amount, re-sign Kahwai. Bam, you have the next Spurs team moving forward.
I know Lakers want the sizzle, but in this CBA, those teams are expensive (from a salary cap sense) to put together, and most of the free agents come when they're in their late 20s so the window is narrow.
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jlinfan
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:15 am Post subject: |
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| Birmingham wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | | Guess she'll be out of a job soon when ESPN realizes she can't get any dirt from the Laker organization. |
Far from it.
She's appearing on more ESPN outlets by the day.
They've clearly earmarked her as the new Chosen One.
Better suited for radio though if you ask me.
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/2RT7EvvuuiA/maxresdefault.jpg |
What's with the adams apple?  |
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Reflexx
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Joined: 25 Jun 2005
Posts: 11163
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:29 am Post subject: |
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| jlinfan wrote: | | Birmingham wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | | Guess she'll be out of a job soon when ESPN realizes she can't get any dirt from the Laker organization. |
Far from it.
She's appearing on more ESPN outlets by the day.
They've clearly earmarked her as the new Chosen One.
Better suited for radio though if you ask me.
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/2RT7EvvuuiA/maxresdefault.jpg |
What's with the adams apple? |
Shush. Just keep listening to Marcellus go on and on about how fine she is and how she does her "flirty" thing on radio. |
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Tark the Shark
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Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 3510
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:21 am Post subject: |
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| Reflexx wrote: | | jlinfan wrote: | | Birmingham wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | | Guess she'll be out of a job soon when ESPN realizes she can't get any dirt from the Laker organization. |
Far from it.
She's appearing on more ESPN outlets by the day.
They've clearly earmarked her as the new Chosen One.
Better suited for radio though if you ask me.
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/2RT7EvvuuiA/maxresdefault.jpg |
What's with the adams apple? |
Shush. Just keep listening to Marcellus go on and on about how fine she is and how she does her "flirty" thing on radio. |
Funny how she picks up an accent from the hood when she's on with Marcellus that goes away when she's co-hosting with a white guy. |
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jodeke
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Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| laker4life wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | Jim said he has a three year plan. He said if it doesn't come to fruition he'll step aside. I'm in the wait and see mode.
Looking on from the outside I see cap space building, 1 year contracts, keep the best, good rookie choice, possibility of keeping our first round choice.
Next year isn't it, following year is.
I'm glad the FO isn't in the win now mode. |
In 3 years, the teams such as the Warriors, Kings, Timberwolves, Jazzs, 76ers, Suns, Clippers and Pelicans will be ahead of us.
That is why we are almost last place. Unless we can lucky and I mean lucky, we are going to be in this position for a long time.
Jim Buss was simply way over his head.
When you hear Ramona during this segment, she specifically states that she does not agree with the tanking strategy because it is not easy and often not successful.
Personally i think that you have to respect her opinion. Whether it will be proven, that is not to be decided for the next few years. |
I don't know he's in over his head. He's been doing what he doing for some time now. In all honesty he hasn't done a bad job. Look at his signings, other than coaches.
I place some of our present predicament on David Stern's veto. I said when it happened it caught not only the Lakers but the league in general by surprise. Jim didn't have a plan B and things went downhill from there.
Mitch is still in the mix. I think after the way things have unfolded Jim will listen more to him.
It's going to be a rough ride, I think we will rise again. I'm targeting 2017.
Of course, I am now, have always been a glass half full.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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Voices
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Joined: 07 Jul 2006
Posts: 8287
Location: Oxnard, Ca.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| 24 wrote: | | Wilkes52 wrote: | English is a funny language. She says she's not hearing of a vision.
But seriously, perhaps Mitch and the Buss family has rethought Shelburne's relationship with the club. Perhaps they've begun filtering out some of the more key strategic planning elements from their pipeline to her.
If true, that might be the first really smart thing Jim & Co has done lately. I kinda like the idea of using the media the way Jerry West did, with semi-incoherent ramblings to the press, while keeping his knife sharp for deal-making quietly. Let's hope the Laker FO is reverting to the rather more secretive style of GM Jerry West and Buss Sr. |
That seems to be the plan. Jeanie makes alternately positive, confusing, conflicting, or meaningless statements about who is in charge and what the plan is, jim says virtually nothing, and mitch speaks intelligently for ten minutes before you realize he hasn't told you a thing. |
Unfortunately and seriously you post is what is really happening.
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ALTHOUGH HE STANDS 6 FEET 2 INCHES, JIM BUSS ATTENDED JOCKEY SCHOOL WHEN HE WAS 20. |
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