One intangible as to why I would put prime Magic over Kobe and Jordan.
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:58 am    Post subject:

moonriver24 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Let's all agree that all 3 are top 10 players of all time and call it a day. If there was an answer to this then we would have found it by now.
and I insist kobe is number 6 on MY LIST.


He's #6 on mine too. But instead of breaking it down to individual slots, if we could break it down to clumps of 10 and just agree people can order their favorite players wherever they want within those clumps, we can just wrap this up already.
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moonriver24
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:16 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
moonriver24 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Let's all agree that all 3 are top 10 players of all time and call it a day. If there was an answer to this then we would have found it by now.
and I insist kobe is number 6 on MY LIST.


He's #6 on mine too. But instead of breaking it down to individual slots, if we could break it down to clumps of 10 and just agree people can order their favorite players wherever they want within those clumps, we can just wrap this up already.
by 'my list' I meant to say yours. It seems that some of you are so allergic to a discussion involving magic mj n kobe. Bring out your best shots.
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:00 pm    Post subject:

moonriver24 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
moonriver24 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Let's all agree that all 3 are top 10 players of all time and call it a day. If there was an answer to this then we would have found it by now.
and I insist kobe is number 6 on MY LIST.


He's #6 on mine too. But instead of breaking it down to individual slots, if we could break it down to clumps of 10 and just agree people can order their favorite players wherever they want within those clumps, we can just wrap this up already.
by 'my list' I meant to say yours. It seems that some of you are so allergic to a discussion involving magic mj n kobe. Bring out your best shots.


Allergic? I just think its pointless if the goal is to reach consensus. Best way to do that is look at it in terms of tiers. I'm sure we can all agree Kobe is in the top 10 with him being higher for some than others.
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kobeandgary
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 4:02 am    Post subject: Re: One intangible as to why I would put prime Magic over Kobe and Jordan.

Jeggs wrote:
kobeandgary wrote:
Jeggs wrote:
Given the recent Kobe tirade:



Kobe's leadership style is questionable just as Jordan's leadership style was.

I asked myself after seeing this, would I rather have Magic as a teammate or Kobe/Jordan as a teammate, and the answer would definitely be I would rather have Magic as a teammate. Magic was just as good of a closer as Michael and Kobe was but I think he fueled his team by making the game more enjoyable.

I think as a team, Magic's Lakers generally had a more fun time playing the game of basketball. I don't think you get to the finals 9 times by not enjoying playing with Magic. Of course they still put in the hard work, but it was fun. When playing with Kobe it probably feels like going to work, but when playing with Magic you worked hard, but it didn't feel like work because you are having a lot of fun playing with Magic.

That is why I always consider Magic as the GOAT over both Kobe and Jordan. The mount Rushmore can definitely be in this order:

1. Magic
2. Kobe
3. Jordan
4. Kareem
5. Wilt Chamberlin

If I had to choose I would rather have fun while winning championships, than be under a Kobe/Jordan leadership and not have fun/as much fun while winning championships.

The only guy that is probably having fun on the Lakers right now is Nick Young. But Nick Young is gonna have fun no matter who is on his team.


i think you are trying to put Magic in the same personality category as Dwight Howard and that was not the case with Magic. Magic just didn't experience the misfortune of awful teams.


No by fun I mean magic was able to keep his teams' spirit and morale high. He made the game fun...the way basketball is suppose to be. Dwight was just a clown...zero leadership. Magic was a fierce competitor as anyone and a true floor general.

This is one debate I always have with myself...who is the goat....Kobe or magic...sometimes I feel magic is...other times it is Kobe. It's a toss up for me after seeing both play in their prime. But I've never seen a guy do what magic could do.

And magic is just as skilled as Jordan or Kobe. I am also guilty of overrating jordan and Kobe in the skill level department I think. What is tougher a fall away double pump shot or a hook shot in traffic? His style of play just didn't require that one on one footwork that Kobe or Jordan used and perimeter shooting. I do think Kobe was the most skilled but that puts him over Jordan...not necessarily magic.


magic played the game he was able to play, he never had to dominate season after season on offense because his teams were good enough to allow him to freely pass the ball knowing it would lead to success. Jordan and Kobe were light years ahead of Magic in Defense, Ball Handling, Footwork, Athleticism. For every amazing pass i have seen Magic pull off I've seen Kobe pull off passes just as amazing. Magic was a point guard tho and rightfully so he was the more gifted passer, aside from that he didn't really do anything else better than Kobe.
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kobeandgary
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 4:05 am    Post subject:

Lakers#1Team wrote:
Agree with the OP in that if I had first pick developing a team I would pick Magic over Kobe and Jordan. Magic played point guard. That's a harder position to find top talent. Hard to judge who's ultimately better.


If you wanted to judge talent that way you are in trouble, first thing you should be doing is drafting a dominant big man like Shaq.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 4:29 am    Post subject:

A lot of people are undervaluing Magic, and I'm guessing they haven't watched him in real game situations as opposed to highlights or looking at the stats. The best way to say it is that Magic was an offensive system unto himself, while the other superstars simply function within the team's system.

While someone like Lebron may have the court vision and ability to put passes on the money, as well as the size and speed to create opportunities, he simply doesn't have Magic's ability to elevate his team's offense to the top ranks of the league by making the right play every time down.

Magic's teams were #1 in offensive rating seven times and #2 at two more times in the 12 seasons before he initially retired. The Jordan/PJax Bulls were #1 four times and #2 once.


Last edited by fiendishoc on Fri Dec 19, 2014 4:53 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 4:48 am    Post subject:

One more reason why I would put Magic #1. He broke the Leprechaun curse!
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:05 am    Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:
A lot of people are undervaluing Magic, and I'm guessing they haven't watched him in real game situations as opposed to highlights or looking at the stats. The best way to say it is that Magic was an offensive system unto himself, while the other superstars simply function within the team's system.

While someone like Lebron may have the court vision and ability to put passes on the money, as well as the size and speed to create opportunities, he simply doesn't have Magic's ability to elevate his team's offense to the top ranks of the league by making the right play every time down.

Magic's teams were #1 in offensive rating seven times and #2 at two more times in the 12 seasons before he initially retired. The Jordan/PJax Bulls were #1 four times and #2 once.


Like I said, didn't matter the coach, the system, or the players around him. Whether they were rookies, picks not in the lottery, or veterans hanging onto their last seasons.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:04 am    Post subject:

When I imagine picking sides playground-style for a face-off of dream teams from the NBA pantheon of players, I usually find I build the best team by selecting Magic Johnson first. He's the most accomplished and unique guy to match up with among the top players. I thought he represented the one who didn't have an equivalent sized and equivalent skilled alternative, in terms of talent and leadership and winning tradition. LeBron seems closest today.

Let's see, I'd pick as follows (alternating, with compensating order change in rounds 3-5), Team A picks first:

Round 1
Magic for team A
LeBron for team B

Round 2
Michael Jordan for team B
Kobe Bryant for team A

Round 3
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar for team B (dang)
Tim Duncan for team A

Round 4
Wilt Chamberlain for team A
Larry Bird for team B

Round 5
Oscar Robertson for team B
Paul Pierce for team A

TEAM A
Wilt
Duncan
Pierce
Kobe
Magic

TEAM B
Cap
Bird
LeBron
MJ
Oscar

Obviously, certain all-time greats get left out.

Shaq because of his difficulty deferring to other players and because his presence too strongly dictates a style of a style of playprobably less than ideal for the others. Kakeem got bypassed because a 6'9" guy can't defend Cap in his prime, not as well as either Duncan or Wilt could. Bill Russell was the hardest guy to skip over, but ultimately I felt his combined lack of size and lack of jump shooting and post scoring made him less versatile and useful at center or at forward - than others.

Pierce is the most controversial and interesting pick, obviously. It's a skill and roster fit and match-up thing obviously, to match up with B as advantageously as possible. Pierce shoots the three strongly which his team needs, he defends well everywhere, he drives the well, and he passes well. He and Oscar would give each other one helluva match-up too. I like team A more, but there's real equivalency here.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:24 am    Post subject:

mad55557777 wrote:
Magic is the greatest leader for sure, but as a basketball player, his skills are no where near mj and kobe


42, 15, 7, 3 as a rookie C in the biggest game of any players' career.

It's hard to make an argument that he wasn't the BEST passer to ever play the game.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:53 am    Post subject:

Quote:
his skills are no where near mj and kobe


That's what made him great. He was an elite passer, didn't have the best Iso skills, and could make the entire team an offensive juggernaut.
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:20 am    Post subject:

vkewalra wrote:
mad55557777 wrote:
Magic is the greatest leader for sure, but as a basketball player, his skills are no where near mj and kobe


42, 15, 7, 3 as a rookie C in the biggest game of any players' career.

It's hard to make an argument that he wasn't the BEST passer to ever play the game.


Yeah. You know, I never had Magic atop my GOAT list, but, that point alone is a tough one to argue with.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 10:34 am    Post subject:

(Foolishly) opening up the debates again. Magic would have a guy like Boozer playing at near all-star level. We'd see an increase in easy opportunities and PPG. Granted, Boozer would still be mediocre on defense. No-rim protection on this team, other than Davis.
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LakerLanny
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 9:30 am    Post subject:

I have always said I consider Magic the #1 player of all time.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 2:47 pm    Post subject:

vkewalra wrote:
42, 15, 7, 3 as a rookie C in the biggest game of any players' career.


Well, I don't know that it was the biggest game of any player's career, much less the biggest game of Magic's career. It was game six of the Finals. If we lost, we came back to LA for game seven, and we got Kareem back. That was basically the plan, but Magic rendered game seven unnecessary.

Great performance, without a doubt. Important game, without a doubt. It doesn't need exaggeration to be a great accomplishment.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 3:15 pm    Post subject:

Is this even a consideration of comparing Magic's leadership to Jordans?

I agree with the OP that Magic was fun to play with, Jordan maybe not. We are talking about leadership not in terms of fun, but in terms of winning championships....one fact to consider 1991 finals Bulls vs Lakers. The Lakers had James Worthy and Magic and a good team with tons of finals experience. Bulls not so much in terms of finals experience. Results 4-1 Bulls champions.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 3:40 pm    Post subject:

Oops
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 5:06 pm    Post subject:

saacman5033 wrote:
moonriver24 wrote:
As great as magic could be, i dont see how he could carry 2005 roster minus kobe to playoffs.


I think prime Magic would have carried the 04-05 roster to the playoffs as well as the 05-06 roster. Odom and Butler would have been all Magic needed to run a devastating break, and his leadership style would have been a better fit for much of that group.


Leadership is the big difference. While Kobe has developed into a good leader, he was feeling his way then.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 5:12 pm    Post subject:

Jeggs wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Let's all agree that all 3 are top 10 players of all time and call it a day. If there was an answer to this then we would have found it by now.


The answer as to who is GOAT: Probably Magic, Maybe Kobe, and not Jordan...ok maybe Jordan.


Kareem was the best to play the game to date.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 5:18 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
vkewalra wrote:
42, 15, 7, 3 as a rookie C in the biggest game of any players' career.


Well, I don't know that it was the biggest game of any player's career, much less the biggest game of Magic's career. It was game six of the Finals. If we lost, we came back to LA for game seven, and we got Kareem back. That was basically the plan, but Magic rendered game seven unnecessary.

Great performance, without a doubt. Important game, without a doubt. It doesn't need exaggeration to be a great accomplishment.


No exaggeration, a title close out game is the biggest of the season.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 7:33 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
vkewalra wrote:
42, 15, 7, 3 as a rookie C in the biggest game of any players' career.


Well, I don't know that it was the biggest game of any player's career, much less the biggest game of Magic's career. It was game six of the Finals. If we lost, we came back to LA for game seven, and we got Kareem back. That was basically the plan, but Magic rendered game seven unnecessary.

Great performance, without a doubt. Important game, without a doubt. It doesn't need exaggeration to be a great accomplishment.


No exaggeration, a title close out game is the biggest of the season.


Okay, and how many of those did Magic have in his career? At least eight. Yes, it's an exaggeration.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 8:34 pm    Post subject:

lar9149 wrote:
Is this even a consideration of comparing Magic's leadership to Jordans?

I agree with the OP that Magic was fun to play with, Jordan maybe not. We are talking about leadership not in terms of fun, but in terms of winning championships....one fact to consider 1991 finals Bulls vs Lakers. The Lakers had James Worthy and Magic and a good team with tons of finals experience. Bulls not so much in terms of finals experience. Results 4-1 Bulls champions.


James Worthy wasn't healthy for the series.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 8:53 pm    Post subject:

lar9149 wrote:
Is this even a consideration of comparing Magic's leadership to Jordans?


Why would that be a consideration? Do you think that leadership is a synonym for victory? It isn't. Sometimes the better team wins. All of the leadership in the world isn't going to help much if you're injured and outgunned when you get to the Finals.

Does the result of the '04 Finals show that Larry Brown and Chauncey Billups were better leaders than PJ, Snaq, and Kobe? Of course not.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 8:55 pm    Post subject:

Jordan, Russell, Kareem, Magic, and Bird are locks for the top 5. I don't think anyone will surpass those guys. 6- 10 is debatable with Wilt, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, Oscar, Lebron and Olajuwon.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 10:14 pm    Post subject:

I would have Russell in my top 10 but not top 5. And I would have Jordan near the bottom of my top 5.
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