Did we take out too much offense from the starting lineup?
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fafan
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:20 pm    Post subject:

3 wins, so far so good! Be honest, very luck. Imagine, against warriors or grizzlies with this starting lineup.
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Inigo Montoya
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:29 pm    Post subject:

sonic the laker wrote:
In all honesty, B.Scott is trying to do his best, with a limited roster. And, it's showing with the Lakers actually putting together a clump of wins, instead of the initial loss, after loss, after loss.

And, I can see why Byron switched up the lineup like he did....

Starter: PG- R.Price
SG- K.Bryant
SF- W.Johnson
PF- E.Davis
C- J.Hill

The starter lineup is full of hustle/energy players, who primarily play defense. With this lineup, Kobe is the initiates/directs the offense. The only thing the rest of the starters should focus on is being in the right spots to receive passes for open shots, play defense, and play the boards.

Bench: PG- J.Lin
SG- W.Ellington
SF- N.Young
PF- C.Boozer
C- R.Sacre

The bench carries most of the teams offensive power, aside for Kobe. Their primary goal is to score, and to keep the Lakers in the game, while the starters rest. Not big on defense, but offense is no problem.

In addition to the stated reasons above, I can speculate on other reasons why B.Scott made the lineup changes. It was apparent that despite encouragement to do so, Lin is just not as aggressive with his game, playing with Kobe for extended minutes. Lin is used to having the ball in his hands, the same as Kobe. Lin likes to play up/down ball, with pick and rolls, here and there. Kobe likes to go iso, with the occasional pick. The two different styles were not meshing, as hoped.

That problem was solved by moving Lin to lead the bench. That freed up both players to play their style of ball, w/o clashing with each other. Boozer was moved because his lack of defense was just appalling. But, as a bench player, he's shining.

It's unfortunate that it took B.Scott this long to figure the team out, but it is what it is. At least it shows that the man is capable, despite the cries for his head. Honestly, if the Lakers were able to strengthen at least a couple of positions this season (R.Price, R.Sacre), then the Lakers may actually be halfway decent.

But, if the Lakers improved, would they actually threaten to get into the playoffs, and pose a threat? Or, just be a semi-decent team on the outside looking in....with no draft pick? I'm sure that's what the FO is discussing amongst themselves, right now. Try to get good, or stay bad.


ZOOM!


There is no excuse for playing Ronnie Price more minutes than Lin or Ellington. Even if you just told them to play like Ronnie Price for 10 minutes either one would be better. He is also robbing Clarkson of development minutes for no discernable gain, and letting the opposing PG rest on defense until they put in a real PG.
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Captain America
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:37 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
kray28_ wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Price made Lavine struggle. 4 of 15.

Can't tell me PG defense doesn't exist.

Frankly, I don't even care if he scores or not. Boozer is doing far better off the bench.

If you want the starting line up to work better, put Wesley on the pine, start Ellington at 2, with Bryant at 3.


Lavine is a 2 being forced to play point. He's a pretty easy cover. Price is significantly less effective against most starting points in this league.

In fact, I would say that Lin is quietly more effective defensively. He won't belly up like Price does or try to force steals, but he plays better sound position D and is a better team/help defender too. Better rebounder...and of course his offense is much better.


Nope.

Lavine played PG all throughout HS. There were just better PGs at UCLA.

If he was such an easy cover, why did he explode for 11 of 14 the last game against the Lakers?

There's no contest who plays better position defense. It's easily Ronnie Price hands down. Lin goes behind screens and only bodies up when his opponent actually drives.

Price bodies up right at the three-point line and keeps his feet moving to stay away from fouls.

Frankly, offensive output at PG doesn't matter, because offense wasn't the issue with the Lakers.

It's defense.

Ok I'm sorry I can kind of see the argument for lin leading bench unit but be real man. Better position defense?? How do you think lin gets all those charges? Price moves feet and doesn't make stupid fouls? Are you kidding? That's like his trademark. Along with getting blown by on the perimeter, gambling and getting backdoored, and getting caught on screens.

Honestly, I think defense is prices greatest weakness, followed by his offense. His strengths are hustle and he's a willing passer
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AVoiceInTheCrowd
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:44 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
kray28_ wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Price made Lavine struggle. 4 of 15.

Can't tell me PG defense doesn't exist.

Frankly, I don't even care if he scores or not. Boozer is doing far better off the bench.

If you want the starting line up to work better, put Wesley on the pine, start Ellington at 2, with Bryant at 3.


Lavine is a 2 being forced to play point. He's a pretty easy cover. Price is significantly less effective against most starting points in this league.

In fact, I would say that Lin is quietly more effective defensively. He won't belly up like Price does or try to force steals, but he plays better sound position D and is a better team/help defender too. Better rebounder...and of course his offense is much better.


Nope.

Lavine played PG all throughout HS. There were just better PGs at UCLA.

If he was such an easy cover, why did he explode for 11 of 14 the last game against the Lakers?

There's no contest who plays better position defense. It's easily Ronnie Price hands down. Lin goes behind screens and only bodies up when his opponent actually drives.

Price bodies up right at the three-point line and keeps his feet moving to stay away from fouls.

Frankly, offensive output at PG doesn't matter, because offense wasn't the issue with the Lakers.

It's defense.


I don't think Lavine is an easy cover (A 6-5 pg is always difficult for another pg to guard, but he is a bad shooter) but it wasn't defense that accounted for a 11-14 night, sometimes players just get hot or cold in a game (helps if you get 3 or 4 easy fast break lay ups).

Lin had one of his best nights against Chris Paul (one of the better defensive pgs) this year. While conversely Paul had his worst shooting night against Lin.

Kyle Lowery had his best night against Rondo (a good defender). Sometimes, players get hot.

I will say though I think Lin plays the pick and roll defense badly especially when paired with Boozer (not as noticeable against the second unit).

Defense was the biggest issue, but not the only one. Right now the current starting lineup has the same bad netrtg of around -15 as the old starting line up (I know it's a small sample size). The difference is now they give up 5 points less while scoring 5 points less.
http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612747/lineups/advanced/
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fiendishoc
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:52 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
kray28_ wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Price made Lavine struggle. 4 of 15.

Can't tell me PG defense doesn't exist.

Frankly, I don't even care if he scores or not. Boozer is doing far better off the bench.

If you want the starting line up to work better, put Wesley on the pine, start Ellington at 2, with Bryant at 3.


Lavine is a 2 being forced to play point. He's a pretty easy cover. Price is significantly less effective against most starting points in this league.

In fact, I would say that Lin is quietly more effective defensively. He won't belly up like Price does or try to force steals, but he plays better sound position D and is a better team/help defender too. Better rebounder...and of course his offense is much better.


Nope.

Lavine played PG all throughout HS. There were just better PGs at UCLA.

If he was such an easy cover, why did he explode for 11 of 14 the last game against the Lakers?

There's no contest who plays better position defense. It's easily Ronnie Price hands down. Lin goes behind screens and only bodies up when his opponent actually drives.

Price bodies up right at the three-point line and keeps his feet moving to stay away from fouls.

Frankly, offensive output at PG doesn't matter, because offense wasn't the issue with the Lakers.

It's defense.


Price did well against Lavine, but the reality is Lavine is a 19 year old PG who played off the bench for his college team. He's going to have up and down nights and trouble dealing with pressure, just like Exum did against Price in preseason.

Against starting caliber PGs Price gets caught on almost every screen, he makes dumb help rotations giving up open 3s and has a hard time staying in front of anyone with any shake to their game.
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MorlockO
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:04 pm    Post subject:

Better Lavine defense was not because of price, its because of better interior defense.

Lavine was 6/6 in the paint last game, this game he was 3/8 in the paint. difference? Ed davis.

problem is we left Shabbazz open lol
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sonic the laker
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:04 pm    Post subject:

Inigo Montoya wrote:


There is no excuse for playing Ronnie Price more minutes than Lin or Ellington. Even if you just told them to play like Ronnie Price for 10 minutes either one would be better. He is also robbing Clarkson of development minutes for no discernable gain, and letting the opposing PG rest on defense until they put in a real PG.




I, too, would like to see an upgrade at the point position, over Price. Yet, despite all of Price's flaws, he can doo what neither Lin or Clarkson can do. Play pressure D on opposing pg's.

That's not to say that Price is some kind of defensive stalwart, aka Tony Allen. But, out of all our current PG's, Price has the best ability to pressure the ball handler at the PG position, and try to stymie the opponents offensive fluidity.

Lin has the body/strength, but not the lateral quickness. Clarkson seems to have all the tools to be at least a decent 2-way defender, but his mental is on a rookie level. He needs better understanding of the game...more mental awareness on both ends of the court. That comes with time. Lin and Clarkson are not the answer. Not unless Clarkson shows vast improvement from his time in the D-League.


ZOOM!
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vankenn
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:33 pm    Post subject:

Scott is a dumb coach. I guess he's trying to develop Price and Scott probably doesn't know Price have been in the league for 9 years averaging only 3ppg. If you average 3ppg for 9 years, I don't care how much more you train, you're not going to get any better.

WHY!? why not let someone else start and develop? Clarkson?

Scott's love for Price is making me angry
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fusuyballer
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:26 pm    Post subject:

Having a good offense is not ONLY about playing your best offensive players. It's about balance and chemistry. If everyone is doing the same thing, you do not have balance and in the end it hurts the team.

Byron Scott (rightfully so) put his best players (per position) on the floor at the start of the season. What he discovered was that he had too many guys on the court doing the same things, and not enough of the intangible things needed to win games. He gave them a chance. But you cant teach hustle, effort, defensive focus, etc.

We do not need Kobe, Lin, Boozer, Hill, and West Johnson all taking one and done jump shots. That's basically what we had on many occasions with that starting lineup. On top of that, we weren't getting the effort level on defense that Price and Ed Davis have given us.

By taking Lin and Boozer out of the starting lineup, the starting lineup is much more balance and we'll benefit from a lot of things that will never show up on the stat sheet. Ed Davis grabbing those rebounds after miss jump shots pays off!

The starters will get more quality touches and that should improve their ability to hit shots. One of the worst aspects of having a lot of one and done shooters in the game together is: no-one develops any kind of rhythm. So you get those 3-5 possessions where someone misses a jump shot and the other team is already up 8-0.

The starting line is now primarily focused around Kobe, Hill, and West with Davis and Price serving as hustle and defensive players. This should improve the kind of touches those 3 get on offense.

Ronny Price defensive effort/presence on Lavine WILL NOT SHOW UP ON THE STAT SHEET. He practically won the game for us last night.

This Laker team can score, guess what, last year team scored a lot too and they sucked! You have to play defense, give maximum effort, and do the little things to win.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:42 pm    Post subject:

I will also like to add that Byron Scott is absolutely right for demanding guys to play better defense and do the intangible things needed to win.

Here's why:

The less talent you have, the harder YOU'RE SUPPOSE TO WORK!

Let me say that again:

The less talent you have, the harder YOU'RE SUPPOSE TO WORK!

This Laker team isn't the most talented, therefore, if they want to be successful, these guys are gonna have to realize that they cannot afford to NOT work harder than the other team.

By reading these posts on here, many of our fans do not seem to understand that. A lot of bad teams (including historically bad teams) score a lot of points per game but lose night in and night out.

To compensate for a lack of talent, you have to work harder to give yourself a chance to actually win. That means that you CANNOT LOSE in those intangible departments.

You have to win that intangible battle or you'll suck. Look at the Knicks, they got more talent than the Lakers right now. Are they playing harder? Do they give the effort on defense? Do they do the little things? If they did, their record would not be as bad as it is. (in the eastern conference, also...)
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Anthony Peeler
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:51 pm    Post subject:

A starting lineup of Kobe, Price, Johnson, Hill, and Davis is a little too defense heavy -- Kobe is your only real option.

A bench of Lin, Ellington, Boozer, Young, and Sacre is too offense heavy -- not much defensive presence.

The best balance would be to swap Lin back into the starting lineup for Price. This way, you have Kobe and Lin as the primary offensive options with Johnson, Davis, and Hill providing defense. In addition, Lin gets more than 20 minutes a game.

Also, on the bench, Young, Ellington, and Boozer provide the offense, with Price and Sacre providing mediocre defense. And Price gets the more appropriate 15-20 minutes per game.

The answer is so obvious -- BS will eventually realize it but in about 15 games.
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fusuyballer
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:10 pm    Post subject:

Anthony Peeler wrote:
A starting lineup of Kobe, Price, Johnson, Hill, and Davis is a little too defense heavy -- Kobe is your only real option.

A bench of Lin, Ellington, Boozer, Young, and Sacre is too offense heavy -- not much defensive presence.

The best balance would be to swap Lin back into the starting lineup for Price. This way, you have Kobe and Lin as the primary offensive options with Johnson, Davis, and Hill providing defense. In addition, Lin gets more than 20 minutes a game.

Also, on the bench, Young, Ellington, and Boozer provide the offense, with Price and Sacre providing mediocre defense. And Price gets the more appropriate 15-20 minutes per game.

The answer is so obvious -- BS will eventually realize it but in about 15 games.



I disagree. Kobe does not play well with a point guard that needs the ball in his hands as much as Lin. Unless that point guard is exceptionally efficient and effective, (ala Steve Nash) I see no justification for starting Lin next to Kobe if its going to interfere with Kobe's rhythm.

I do agree with you that we're defensive heavy with this starting lineup. However, that's okay with me because we need to establish the defensive tone at the start of games, and if we need more offense -- it's not like we cannot bring Lin and co quickly off the bench.

Price is not a very effective offensive player, therefore, it's nice to have Lin in the wings. If we start Lin, we literally don't have that offensive push coming off the bench.

Therefore, I see several benefits to bringing Lin and Boozer off the bench:(just to name a few)

1. Kobe gets to control the flow of the game more (rightfully so)
2. Kobe, West, Hill will get more quality touches
3. We set the defensive tone early in games with a defensive lineup
4. Ron Price is more suited starting because he does not offer much off the bench offensively
5.So, think of Price starting as a strategy. We struggle on defense, so BS is trying to set the defensive tone. If Price plays well, (like he did versus Minny) he'll leave Price in the game. If he needs more offense, he can turn to Lin, Boozer, and Young.

I see no issue with Lin's minutes. Ronny Price got two steals on Lavine and we benefited from his defense. He was the primary reason Lavine shot so poorly and he was one of the biggest reasons we own the game.

I have no problem with BS sticking with Ron Price when he's bringing that kind of value to the team. Price should have been on the floor last night, he earned his minutes.
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RusselDoeee01
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:46 pm    Post subject:

I felt Price really set a tone for us early in the game ripping Lavine two plays in a row. Lavine never really was in rhythm the rest of the game
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:40 pm    Post subject:

fusuyballer wrote:
Anthony Peeler wrote:
A starting lineup of Kobe, Price, Johnson, Hill, and Davis is a little too defense heavy -- Kobe is your only real option.

A bench of Lin, Ellington, Boozer, Young, and Sacre is too offense heavy -- not much defensive presence.

The best balance would be to swap Lin back into the starting lineup for Price. This way, you have Kobe and Lin as the primary offensive options with Johnson, Davis, and Hill providing defense. In addition, Lin gets more than 20 minutes a game.

Also, on the bench, Young, Ellington, and Boozer provide the offense, with Price and Sacre providing mediocre defense. And Price gets the more appropriate 15-20 minutes per game.

The answer is so obvious -- BS will eventually realize it but in about 15 games.



I disagree. Kobe does not play well with a point guard that needs the ball in his hands as much as Lin. Unless that point guard is exceptionally efficient and effective, (ala Steve Nash) I see no justification for starting Lin next to Kobe if its going to interfere with Kobe's rhythm.

I do agree with you that we're defensive heavy with this starting lineup. However, that's okay with me because we need to establish the defensive tone at the start of games, and if we need more offense -- it's not like we cannot bring Lin and co quickly off the bench.

Price is not a very effective offensive player, therefore, it's nice to have Lin in the wings. If we start Lin, we literally don't have that offensive push coming off the bench.

Therefore, I see several benefits to bringing Lin and Boozer off the bench:(just to name a few)

1. Kobe gets to control the flow of the game more (rightfully so)
2. Kobe, West, Hill will get more quality touches
3. We set the defensive tone early in games with a defensive lineup
4. Ron Price is more suited starting because he does not offer much off the bench offensively
5.So, think of Price starting as a strategy. We struggle on defense, so BS is trying to set the defensive tone. If Price plays well, (like he did versus Minny) he'll leave Price in the game. If he needs more offense, he can turn to Lin, Boozer, and Young.

I see no issue with Lin's minutes. Ronny Price got two steals on Lavine and we benefited from his defense. He was the primary reason Lavine shot so poorly and he was one of the biggest reasons we own the game.

I have no problem with BS sticking with Ron Price when he's bringing that kind of value to the team. Price should have been on the floor last night, he earned his minutes.


After catching all of the Lakers' games, from preseason game #1 until the Spurs game, your posts are getting me psyched to watch the Wolves game I recorded. I'm a huge Lin fan who considers Lin a high-level defender from the moment he entered the NBA, but I am genuinely interested to see whether I would've played Price fewer (or more!) minutes than what BS gave him given what you said about his defensive work. Having played PG myself (though obviously at a lower level), I can appreciate how quickly it can get in your head if the defender is in your face and disrupts you from getting into your offense, especially with a shot clock.
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vankenn
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:37 pm    Post subject:

The lakers don't have any chance this season. If they're in the East and they work harder then maybe they can get 8th seed but no way they will be able to make the playoff playing this bad.

I want to just bang my head against the wall watching them play.
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