I'm amused by all the people that keep say "81 proves Kobe's better than Jordan" or "Jordan only got 69, while Kobe got 81" or other variants of that.
Using that criteria, Wilt's 100 obviously makes him much, much greater than either Kobe or MJ. New GOAT - end of discussion.
And since the difference between 81 & 100 is almost twice the difference (-19) between 69 & 81 (-12), that must mean Wilt's the better GOAT then Kobe by almost twice the differential that you think that the same criteria shows Kobe is greater then MJ.
Since most of the polls of greatest all time players have Wilt at around #6 and Kobe around 8th, I guess "100 vs 81" just permanently cements that - although I guess they'll have to move Wilt to #1 and MJ gets demoted a spot.
If you're going to keep throwing that "81" out there as some kind of proof, you'd better be prepared to stand by the same conclusions when it's applied to Wilt. As a scientist, they always taught us that if your theorem can only be applied to selective data, it's not valid.
The arguments made to put Kobe over Jordan are extremely creative and apply rules loosely depending on the situation. My work with statistics and hypotheses say that if it takes a lot of maneuvering in order to come to a desired conclusion, then the conclusion is flawed. I think that is what we see here. Kobe unquestionably has his own place in history but the attempts to place him ahead of Jordan have probably hurt him more than they have helped him.
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29338 Location: La La Land
Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 5:30 pm Post subject:
P.K. wrote:
I'm amused by all the people that keep say "81 proves Kobe's better than Jordan" or "Jordan only got 69, while Kobe got 81" or other variants of that.
Using that criteria, Wilt's 100 obviously makes him much, much greater than either Kobe or MJ. New GOAT - end of discussion.
And since the difference between 81 & 100 is almost twice the difference (-19) between 69 & 81 (-12), that must mean Wilt's the better GOAT then Kobe by almost twice the differential that you think that the same criteria shows Kobe is greater then MJ.
Since most of the polls of greatest all time players have Wilt at around #6 and Kobe around 8th, I guess "100 vs 81" just permanently cements that - although I guess they'll have to move Wilt to #1 and MJ gets demoted a spot.
If you're going to keep throwing that "81" out there as some kind of proof, you'd better be prepared to stand by the same conclusions when it's applied to Wilt. As a scientist, they always taught us that if your theorem can only be applied to selective data, it's not valid.
I would love to have a kobe vs MJ debate with you if/when kobe retires as the number 1 scorer of all-time.
The argument for kobe over jordan is heavily based on Kobe's sustained excellence over 2 decades.
MJ's peak is ridiculously high, but likely his longevity will pale in comparison to Kobe's. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
I'm amused by all the people that keep say "81 proves Kobe's better than Jordan" or "Jordan only got 69, while Kobe got 81" or other variants of that.
Using that criteria, Wilt's 100 obviously makes him much, much greater than either Kobe or MJ. New GOAT - end of discussion.
And since the difference between 81 & 100 is almost twice the difference (-19) between 69 & 81 (-12), that must mean Wilt's the better GOAT then Kobe by almost twice the differential that you think that the same criteria shows Kobe is greater then MJ.
Since most of the polls of greatest all time players have Wilt at around #6 and Kobe around 8th, I guess "100 vs 81" just permanently cements that - although I guess they'll have to move Wilt to #1 and MJ gets demoted a spot.
If you're going to keep throwing that "81" out there as some kind of proof, you'd better be prepared to stand by the same conclusions when it's applied to Wilt. As a scientist, they always taught us that if your theorem can only be applied to selective data, it's not valid.
The arguments made to put Kobe over Jordan are extremely creative and apply rules loosely depending on the situation. My work with statistics and hypotheses say that if it takes a lot of maneuvering in order to come to a desired conclusion, then the conclusion is flawed. I think that is what we see here. Kobe unquestionably has his own place in history but the attempts to place him ahead of Jordan have probably hurt him more than they have helped him.
Yeah, that's why I wrote that - that whole 81 vs 69 argument had gotten to the point that it was just annoyingly silly.
The argument was flawed and the conclusion reached from it was flawed as well, which was pretty much my point.
David "Skywalker" Thompson once scored 73 in a game - does that mean he's somehow better then MJ?
Flawed. _________________ LBJ + AD = More rings
Never argue with a fool - listeners can't tell you apart
Wilt's unstoppable fadeaway: www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O9MgNfcGJA
NPZ's Magic Johnson mix: www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI
Last edited by P.K. on Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
I'm amused by all the people that keep say "81 proves Kobe's better than Jordan" or "Jordan only got 69, while Kobe got 81" or other variants of that.
Using that criteria, Wilt's 100 obviously makes him much, much greater than either Kobe or MJ. New GOAT - end of discussion.
And since the difference between 81 & 100 is almost twice the difference (-19) between 69 & 81 (-12), that must mean Wilt's the better GOAT then Kobe by almost twice the differential that you think that the same criteria shows Kobe is greater then MJ.
Since most of the polls of greatest all time players have Wilt at around #6 and Kobe around 8th, I guess "100 vs 81" just permanently cements that - although I guess they'll have to move Wilt to #1 and MJ gets demoted a spot.
If you're going to keep throwing that "81" out there as some kind of proof, you'd better be prepared to stand by the same conclusions when it's applied to Wilt. As a scientist, they always taught us that if your theorem can only be applied to selective data, it's not valid.
I would love to have a kobe vs MJ debate with you if/when kobe retires as the number 1 scorer of all-time.
The argument for kobe over jordan is heavily based on Kobe's sustained excellence over 2 decades.
MJ's peak is ridiculously high, but likely his longevity will pale in comparison to Kobe's.
Kobe has played 5000 more minutes and counting than MJ. And he just now passed him in points scored.
Scoring is actually the most important part of basketball. The winner of the game is the team with more points.
True.
That other guy wanted to make it seem like 81 was no big deal, because Jordan got 18 boards though.
dude, you can't seem to grasp it. if getting 18 boards was so easy, why doesn't Kobe have more triple doubles? it's like you're saying Jordan CAN'T score 81. the fact that he didn't doesn't mean he CAN'T. btw, Kobe's career high in rebounds is 16. Jordan got 18 in his highest scoring game.
I'm amused by all the people that keep say "81 proves Kobe's better than Jordan" or "Jordan only got 69, while Kobe got 81" or other variants of that.
Using that criteria, Wilt's 100 obviously makes him much, much greater than either Kobe or MJ. New GOAT - end of discussion.
And since the difference between 81 & 100 is almost twice the difference (-19) between 69 & 81 (-12), that must mean Wilt's the better GOAT then Kobe by almost twice the differential that you think that the same criteria shows Kobe is greater then MJ.
Since most of the polls of greatest all time players have Wilt at around #6 and Kobe around 8th, I guess "100 vs 81" just permanently cements that - although I guess they'll have to move Wilt to #1 and MJ gets demoted a spot.
If you're going to keep throwing that "81" out there as some kind of proof, you'd better be prepared to stand by the same conclusions when it's applied to Wilt. As a scientist, they always taught us that if your theorem can only be applied to selective data, it's not valid.
I would love to have a kobe vs MJ debate with you if/when kobe retires as the number 1 scorer of all-time.
The argument for kobe over jordan is heavily based on Kobe's sustained excellence over 2 decades.
MJ's peak is ridiculously high, but likely his longevity will pale in comparison to Kobe's.
First off, if what we're seeing performance wise last night and pretty much for the entire month so far is any indication, this year and probably future years isn't going to count as "sustained excellence."
What Kobe is doing this year is impressive as hell considering the injuries and his age, but "excellence" is stretching the definition beyond it's breaking point.
Many more points scored, maybe - but trying to say "excellence" isn't based in reality
Second point:
You don't need to have the Kobe vs MJ debate with me - I'm not one of the bball industry people that typically gets to vote on those "greatest of all time" lists.
Unfortunately, those people that do vote on it consistently place Kobe around 7th or 8th in a group with Shaq & TD and 6 or so spots below MJ _________________ LBJ + AD = More rings
Never argue with a fool - listeners can't tell you apart
Wilt's unstoppable fadeaway: www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O9MgNfcGJA
NPZ's Magic Johnson mix: www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29338 Location: La La Land
Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:20 pm Post subject:
pjiddy wrote:
kikanga wrote:
P.K. wrote:
I'm amused by all the people that keep say "81 proves Kobe's better than Jordan" or "Jordan only got 69, while Kobe got 81" or other variants of that.
Using that criteria, Wilt's 100 obviously makes him much, much greater than either Kobe or MJ. New GOAT - end of discussion.
And since the difference between 81 & 100 is almost twice the difference (-19) between 69 & 81 (-12), that must mean Wilt's the better GOAT then Kobe by almost twice the differential that you think that the same criteria shows Kobe is greater then MJ.
Since most of the polls of greatest all time players have Wilt at around #6 and Kobe around 8th, I guess "100 vs 81" just permanently cements that - although I guess they'll have to move Wilt to #1 and MJ gets demoted a spot.
If you're going to keep throwing that "81" out there as some kind of proof, you'd better be prepared to stand by the same conclusions when it's applied to Wilt. As a scientist, they always taught us that if your theorem can only be applied to selective data, it's not valid.
I would love to have a kobe vs MJ debate with you if/when kobe retires as the number 1 scorer of all-time.
The argument for kobe over jordan is heavily based on Kobe's sustained excellence over 2 decades.
MJ's peak is ridiculously high, but likely his longevity will pale in comparison to Kobe's.
Kobe has played 5000 more minutes and counting than MJ. And he just now passed him in points scored.
Link, pretty please.
But if that is right, I think that coincides with my POV that MJ's peak is ridiculous but Kobe will surpass him in terms of longevity _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
I'm amused by all the people that keep say "81 proves Kobe's better than Jordan" or "Jordan only got 69, while Kobe got 81" or other variants of that.
Using that criteria, Wilt's 100 obviously makes him much, much greater than either Kobe or MJ. New GOAT - end of discussion.
And since the difference between 81 & 100 is almost twice the difference (-19) between 69 & 81 (-12), that must mean Wilt's the better GOAT then Kobe by almost twice the differential that you think that the same criteria shows Kobe is greater then MJ.
Since most of the polls of greatest all time players have Wilt at around #6 and Kobe around 8th, I guess "100 vs 81" just permanently cements that - although I guess they'll have to move Wilt to #1 and MJ gets demoted a spot.
If you're going to keep throwing that "81" out there as some kind of proof, you'd better be prepared to stand by the same conclusions when it's applied to Wilt. As a scientist, they always taught us that if your theorem can only be applied to selective data, it's not valid.
I would love to have a kobe vs MJ debate with you if/when kobe retires as the number 1 scorer of all-time.
The argument for kobe over jordan is heavily based on Kobe's sustained excellence over 2 decades.
MJ's peak is ridiculously high, but likely his longevity will pale in comparison to Kobe's.
Kobe has played 5000 more minutes and counting than MJ. And he just now passed him in points scored.
It also took 400+ more FGA's than MJ took to reach MJ's 32,292
And Kobe got the benefit of something like 1223 more FT's too - which at Kobe's lifetime FT% (83.7%) accounts for a little over 1000 of those 32,292 points. _________________ LBJ + AD = More rings
Never argue with a fool - listeners can't tell you apart
Wilt's unstoppable fadeaway: www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O9MgNfcGJA
NPZ's Magic Johnson mix: www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI
I'm amused by all the people that keep say "81 proves Kobe's better than Jordan" or "Jordan only got 69, while Kobe got 81" or other variants of that.
Using that criteria, Wilt's 100 obviously makes him much, much greater than either Kobe or MJ. New GOAT - end of discussion.
And since the difference between 81 & 100 is almost twice the difference (-19) between 69 & 81 (-12), that must mean Wilt's the better GOAT then Kobe by almost twice the differential that you think that the same criteria shows Kobe is greater then MJ.
Since most of the polls of greatest all time players have Wilt at around #6 and Kobe around 8th, I guess "100 vs 81" just permanently cements that - although I guess they'll have to move Wilt to #1 and MJ gets demoted a spot.
If you're going to keep throwing that "81" out there as some kind of proof, you'd better be prepared to stand by the same conclusions when it's applied to Wilt. As a scientist, they always taught us that if your theorem can only be applied to selective data, it's not valid.
I would love to have a kobe vs MJ debate with you if/when kobe retires as the number 1 scorer of all-time.
The argument for kobe over jordan is heavily based on Kobe's sustained excellence over 2 decades.
MJ's peak is ridiculously high, but likely his longevity will pale in comparison to Kobe's.
Kobe has played 5000 more minutes and counting than MJ. And he just now passed him in points scored.
And Kobe was bench player for several years, 6th man, 2nd option to Shaq. The beginning of his career hurt his career numbers I've said this dozen times already.
I'm amused by all the people that keep say "81 proves Kobe's better than Jordan" or "Jordan only got 69, while Kobe got 81" or other variants of that.
Using that criteria, Wilt's 100 obviously makes him much, much greater than either Kobe or MJ. New GOAT - end of discussion.
And since the difference between 81 & 100 is almost twice the difference (-19) between 69 & 81 (-12), that must mean Wilt's the better GOAT then Kobe by almost twice the differential that you think that the same criteria shows Kobe is greater then MJ.
Since most of the polls of greatest all time players have Wilt at around #6 and Kobe around 8th, I guess "100 vs 81" just permanently cements that - although I guess they'll have to move Wilt to #1 and MJ gets demoted a spot.
If you're going to keep throwing that "81" out there as some kind of proof, you'd better be prepared to stand by the same conclusions when it's applied to Wilt. As a scientist, they always taught us that if your theorem can only be applied to selective data, it's not valid.
I would love to have a kobe vs MJ debate with you if/when kobe retires as the number 1 scorer of all-time.
The argument for kobe over jordan is heavily based on Kobe's sustained excellence over 2 decades.
MJ's peak is ridiculously high, but likely his longevity will pale in comparison to Kobe's.
Kobe has played 5000 more minutes and counting than MJ. And he just now passed him in points scored.
Link, pretty please.
But if that is right, I think that coincides with my POV that MJ's peak is ridiculous but Kobe will surpass him in terms of longevity
More minutes, more games...the thing to consider is that Kobe was a bench player and role player for YEARS. Jordan came in as the #1 guy. Same with lebron. These are very big deals. This is why it is practically impossible to use stats in basketball to prove who is better. There's no number, no matter how you slice and dice it, that will take into account all these different scenarios. Video is the best thing we got. Go on youtube and watch them play, make up your mind who is better based on that. Even that can be somewhat disingenuous, especially if they are highlights vs. full on games.
From what I can tell from video, Kobe can do just about everything MJ could do, but more. For similar moves/plays, Kobe's situation will tend to have a more difficult defensive situation to deal with, and it's clear from their movements that Kobe's is more fluid and precise. This is natural, Kobe has much more technology and MJ himself to build off of.
Now, from the videos, there do seem to be some advantages Jordan had. His leaping ability seems to be more explosive than Kobe, but it's not super clear. MJ clearly has a style advantage...everything he does looks so freaking good, and that's mainly because of his hands. The way he holds the ball makes the movements look more elegant. This has no impact on skill, but it looks great. Technically, this is an advantage for him on plays right around the basket. It's a disadvantage away from the basket, like 3 point territory. So there's a little give and take there.
Jordan had a huge advantage in that the court spacing was much more open for him and it was very easy for him to blow by people and he just had a lot more room to work with than players today in general. You put a lot of the great players today in that era and they will be much more prolific. I don't know why that bothers people. Go way back to the black and white days, and people were running around like weirdos, shooting grounded set shots, granny shots...I don't know why it's so hard for people to accept that the 90s game was also similarly unevolved relative to today's game.
I'm amused by all the people that keep say "81 proves Kobe's better than Jordan" or "Jordan only got 69, while Kobe got 81" or other variants of that.
Using that criteria, Wilt's 100 obviously makes him much, much greater than either Kobe or MJ. New GOAT - end of discussion.
And since the difference between 81 & 100 is almost twice the difference (-19) between 69 & 81 (-12), that must mean Wilt's the better GOAT then Kobe by almost twice the differential that you think that the same criteria shows Kobe is greater then MJ.
Since most of the polls of greatest all time players have Wilt at around #6 and Kobe around 8th, I guess "100 vs 81" just permanently cements that - although I guess they'll have to move Wilt to #1 and MJ gets demoted a spot.
If you're going to keep throwing that "81" out there as some kind of proof, you'd better be prepared to stand by the same conclusions when it's applied to Wilt. As a scientist, they always taught us that if your theorem can only be applied to selective data, it's not valid.
I would love to have a kobe vs MJ debate with you if/when kobe retires as the number 1 scorer of all-time.
The argument for kobe over jordan is heavily based on Kobe's sustained excellence over 2 decades.
MJ's peak is ridiculously high, but likely his longevity will pale in comparison to Kobe's.
Kobe has played 5000 more minutes and counting than MJ. And he just now passed him in points scored.
Link, pretty please.
But if that is right, I think that coincides with my POV that MJ's peak is ridiculous but Kobe will surpass him in terms of longevity
More minutes, more games...the thing to consider is that Kobe was a bench player and role player for YEARS. Jordan came in as the #1 guy. Same with lebron. These are very big deals. This is why it is practically impossible to use stats in basketball to prove who is better. There's no number, no matter how you slice and dice it, that will take into account all these different scenarios. Video is the best thing we got. Go on youtube and watch them play, make up your mind who is better based on that. Even that can be somewhat disingenuous, especially if they are highlights vs. full on games.
From what I can tell from video, Kobe can do just about everything MJ could do, but more. For similar moves/plays, Kobe's situation will tend to have a more difficult defensive situation to deal with, and it's clear from their movements that Kobe's is more fluid and precise. This is natural, Kobe has much more technology and MJ himself to build off of.
Now, from the videos, there do seem to be some advantages Jordan had. His leaping ability seems to be more explosive than Kobe, but it's not super clear. MJ clearly has a style advantage...everything he does looks so freaking good, and that's mainly because of his hands. The way he holds the ball makes the movements look more elegant. This has no impact on skill, but it looks great. Technically, this is an advantage for him on plays right around the basket. It's a disadvantage away from the basket, like 3 point territory. So there's a little give and take there.
Jordan had a huge advantage in that the court spacing was much more open for him and it was very easy for him to blow by people and he just had a lot more room to work with than players today in general. You put a lot of the great players today in that era and they will be much more prolific. I don't know why that bothers people. Go way back to the black and white days, and people were running around like weirdos, shooting grounded set shots, granny shots...I don't know why it's so hard for people to accept that the 90s game was also similarly unevolved relative to today's game.
Wow amazing post I couldn't of said it any better than you just did. Why can't people understand players like Lebron and MJ were franchise guys to start out there careers as soon as they were drafted by their franchises while Kobe wasn't he had to outwork everyone to get to where he is today insane competitive athlete work ethic off the charts he proved the doubters wrong #13 pick in 1996 draft he was mid first round talent at that time.
MJ was in college at the same age that Kobe was coming off the bench. Kobe had way more points and experience by the age of 21. That's a wash in my book in terms of either having an advantage based on those set of circumstances.
Also, lets not forget MJ didn't play for a year or two in his prime or he would've scored another 3-6,000 points. _________________ Championships since NBA/ABA merger in '76: Lakers 10 - Celtics 5 - Clippers 0 --- Phil Jackson 10 - Doc Rivers 1
MJ was in college at the same age that Kobe was coming off the bench. Kobe had way more points and experience by the age of 21. That's a wash in my book in terms of either having an advantage based on those set of circumstances.
Also, lets not forget MJ didn't play for a year or two in his prime or he would've scored another 3-6,000 points.
and 1 or 2 more rings _________________ LBJ + AD = More rings
Never argue with a fool - listeners can't tell you apart
Wilt's unstoppable fadeaway: www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O9MgNfcGJA
NPZ's Magic Johnson mix: www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI
MJ was in college at the same age that Kobe was coming off the bench. Kobe had way more points and experience by the age of 21. That's a wash in my book in terms of either having an advantage based on those set of circumstances.
Also, lets not forget MJ didn't play for a year or two in his prime or he would've scored another 3-6,000 points.
Wrong MJ had opportunity to learn the game of basketball by Dean Smith who is legendary coach he taught him a lot at North Carolina while Kobe never learned the game all that well when he was 17 year old kid (rookie) didn't have experience or knowledge of the game in team setting and as individual. MJ would take back seat to Shaq during his peak years lets not kid ourselves here it would of played out just like Kobe and Shaq due to ego and ignorance. I believe Kobe should of went to college to develop his game the talent along with his insane skill set, I wish coach K would of coached him he would of had much better start to his career oh well I guess....
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29338 Location: La La Land
Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:23 pm Post subject:
P.K. wrote:
Cancun Van Exel wrote:
MJ was in college at the same age that Kobe was coming off the bench. Kobe had way more points and experience by the age of 21. That's a wash in my book in terms of either having an advantage based on those set of circumstances.
Also, lets not forget MJ didn't play for a year or two in his prime or he would've scored another 3-6,000 points.
and 1 or 2 more rings
MJ only missed 1 full season in his prime. The other season he choked in the playoffs. Even the great MJ let this happen.
Of course that's only half the story, the next year he went 72-10 in the regular season. Talk about vengeance. MJ was a beast!
...But he wasn't as perfect as people think nowadays. Like kobe, he missed his fair share of big shots.
For example you can find plenty of links and tv replays of Jordan's 1989 first round, game 5, game-winner on Ehlo. But its nearly impossible to find a video of the three free throws he missed down the stretch to cost them game 4 (just a game before).
Quote:
In a tightly contested game 4, Michael Jordan scored 50 points and gave the Bulls a chance to finish off the series late in the game. But Jordan missed 3 key free throws down the stretch which allowed the Cavs to send the game into overtime, where they defeated the Bulls and forced the deciding game 5.
MJ was in college at the same age that Kobe was coming off the bench. Kobe had way more points and experience by the age of 21. That's a wash in my book in terms of either having an advantage based on those set of circumstances.
Also, lets not forget MJ didn't play for a year or two in his prime or he would've scored another 3-6,000 points.
and 1 or 2 more rings
MJ only missed 1 full season in his prime. The other season he choked in the playoffs. Even the great MJ let this happen.
Of course that's only half the story, the next year he went 72-10 in the regular season. Talk about vengeance. MJ was a beast!
...But he wasn't as perfect as people think nowadays. Like kobe, he missed his fair share of big shots.
For example you can find plenty of links and tv replays of Jordan's 1989 first round, game 5, game-winner on Ehlo. But its nearly impossible to find a video of the three free throws he missed down the stretch to cost them game 4 (just a game before).
Quote:
In a tightly contested game 4, Michael Jordan scored 50 points and gave the Bulls a chance to finish off the series late in the game. But Jordan missed 3 key free throws down the stretch which allowed the Cavs to send the game into overtime, where they defeated the Bulls and forced the deciding game 5.
MJ should be thanking his lucky stars that Shaq left for the Lakers....I think that the Magic would've derailed their 3 peat attempt if they had stayed together. The Bulls never had any competition similar to the Magic in the years afterwards.
MJ was in college at the same age that Kobe was coming off the bench. Kobe had way more points and experience by the age of 21. That's a wash in my book in terms of either having an advantage based on those set of circumstances.
Also, lets not forget MJ didn't play for a year or two in his prime or he would've scored another 3-6,000 points.
and 1 or 2 more rings
MJ only missed 1 full season in his prime. The other season he choked in the playoffs. Even the great MJ let this happen.
Of course that's only half the story, the next year he went 72-10 in the regular season. Talk about vengeance. MJ was a beast!
...But he wasn't as perfect as people think nowadays. Like kobe, he missed his fair share of big shots.
For example you can find plenty of links and tv replays of Jordan's 1989 first round, game 5, game-winner on Ehlo. But its nearly impossible to find a video of the three free throws he missed down the stretch to cost them game 4 (just a game before).
Quote:
In a tightly contested game 4, Michael Jordan scored 50 points and gave the Bulls a chance to finish off the series late in the game. But Jordan missed 3 key free throws down the stretch which allowed the Cavs to send the game into overtime, where they defeated the Bulls and forced the deciding game 5.
It makes me sick how people make MJ out to be some type of demi god that was perfect never missed game winners never lost in playoffs. I'm huge fan of MJ but his brand out weighs him as a player don't get me wrong he is indeed the GOAT, an icon of basketball that's legendary but to some degree he becomes a myth to his fans and sports media in general.
I think another factor which plays a role in why MJ will be considered "better" is because he accomplished so much yet, leaves room for reasonable speculation that he could have done even more.
Meanwhile, with Kobe, he's played every season essentially, so there is no room for speculation and so his story has clear bounds.
MJ was in college at the same age that Kobe was coming off the bench. Kobe had way more points and experience by the age of 21. That's a wash in my book in terms of either having an advantage based on those set of circumstances.
Also, lets not forget MJ didn't play for a year or two in his prime or he would've scored another 3-6,000 points.
and 1 or 2 more rings
MJ only missed 1 full season in his prime. The other season he choked in the playoffs. Even the great MJ let this happen.
Of course that's only half the story, the next year he went 72-10 in the regular season. Talk about vengeance. MJ was a beast!
...But he wasn't as perfect as people think nowadays. Like kobe, he missed his fair share of big shots.
For example you can find plenty of links and tv replays of Jordan's 1989 first round, game 5, game-winner on Ehlo. But its nearly impossible to find a video of the three free throws he missed down the stretch to cost them game 4 (just a game before).
Quote:
In a tightly contested game 4, Michael Jordan scored 50 points and gave the Bulls a chance to finish off the series late in the game. But Jordan missed 3 key free throws down the stretch which allowed the Cavs to send the game into overtime, where they defeated the Bulls and forced the deciding game 5.
MJ should be thanking his lucky stars that Shaq left for the Lakers....I think that the Magic would've derailed their 3 peat attempt if they had stayed together. The Bulls never had any competition similar to the Magic in the years afterwards.
As if the bulls didn't beat better teams than the magic...
MJ was in college at the same age that Kobe was coming off the bench. Kobe had way more points and experience by the age of 21. That's a wash in my book in terms of either having an advantage based on those set of circumstances.
Also, lets not forget MJ didn't play for a year or two in his prime or he would've scored another 3-6,000 points.
and 1 or 2 more rings
MJ only missed 1 full season in his prime. The other season he choked in the playoffs. Even the great MJ let this happen.
Of course that's only half the story, the next year he went 72-10 in the regular season. Talk about vengeance. MJ was a beast!
...But he wasn't as perfect as people think nowadays. Like kobe, he missed his fair share of big shots.
For example you can find plenty of links and tv replays of Jordan's 1989 first round, game 5, game-winner on Ehlo. But its nearly impossible to find a video of the three free throws he missed down the stretch to cost them game 4 (just a game before).
Quote:
In a tightly contested game 4, Michael Jordan scored 50 points and gave the Bulls a chance to finish off the series late in the game. But Jordan missed 3 key free throws down the stretch which allowed the Cavs to send the game into overtime, where they defeated the Bulls and forced the deciding game 5.
MJ should be thanking his lucky stars that Shaq left for the Lakers....I think that the Magic would've derailed their 3 peat attempt if they had stayed together. The Bulls never had any competition similar to the Magic in the years afterwards.
As if the bulls didn't beat better teams than the magic...
MJ was in college at the same age that Kobe was coming off the bench. Kobe had way more points and experience by the age of 21. That's a wash in my book in terms of either having an advantage based on those set of circumstances.
Also, lets not forget MJ didn't play for a year or two in his prime or he would've scored another 3-6,000 points.
and 1 or 2 more rings
MJ only missed 1 full season in his prime. The other season he choked in the playoffs. Even the great MJ let this happen.
Of course that's only half the story, the next year he went 72-10 in the regular season. Talk about vengeance. MJ was a beast!
...But he wasn't as perfect as people think nowadays. Like kobe, he missed his fair share of big shots.
For example you can find plenty of links and tv replays of Jordan's 1989 first round, game 5, game-winner on Ehlo. But its nearly impossible to find a video of the three free throws he missed down the stretch to cost them game 4 (just a game before).
Quote:
In a tightly contested game 4, Michael Jordan scored 50 points and gave the Bulls a chance to finish off the series late in the game. But Jordan missed 3 key free throws down the stretch which allowed the Cavs to send the game into overtime, where they defeated the Bulls and forced the deciding game 5.
MJ should be thanking his lucky stars that Shaq left for the Lakers....I think that the Magic would've derailed their 3 peat attempt if they had stayed together. The Bulls never had any competition similar to the Magic in the years afterwards.
As if the bulls didn't beat better teams than the magic...
They didn't.
I would put those Shaq Magic teams as much better competition for the Bulls than the Pacers, Knicks, Heat or Jazz. That Magic team exploited weaknesses in the Bulls that those mentioned teams never were able to because they didn't have a dominant center like Shaq. You mix in the youth, athleticism, and playoff experience of that Magic squad and they would've given a rejuvenated Bulls squad a 7 game series. The only team that ever gave the Bulls a 7 game series in their 2nd 3-peat was in 1998, against the Pacers, Shaq's Magic team was far superior to that squad.
Last edited by lakersken80 on Sat Dec 20, 2014 10:58 pm; edited 5 times in total
MJ was in college at the same age that Kobe was coming off the bench. Kobe had way more points and experience by the age of 21. That's a wash in my book in terms of either having an advantage based on those set of circumstances.
Also, lets not forget MJ didn't play for a year or two in his prime or he would've scored another 3-6,000 points.
and 1 or 2 more rings
MJ only missed 1 full season in his prime. The other season he choked in the playoffs. Even the great MJ let this happen.
Of course that's only half the story, the next year he went 72-10 in the regular season. Talk about vengeance. MJ was a beast!
...But he wasn't as perfect as people think nowadays. Like kobe, he missed his fair share of big shots.
For example you can find plenty of links and tv replays of Jordan's 1989 first round, game 5, game-winner on Ehlo. But its nearly impossible to find a video of the three free throws he missed down the stretch to cost them game 4 (just a game before).
Quote:
In a tightly contested game 4, Michael Jordan scored 50 points and gave the Bulls a chance to finish off the series late in the game. But Jordan missed 3 key free throws down the stretch which allowed the Cavs to send the game into overtime, where they defeated the Bulls and forced the deciding game 5.
MJ should be thanking his lucky stars that Shaq left for the Lakers....I think that the Magic would've derailed their 3 peat attempt if they had stayed together. The Bulls never had any competition similar to the Magic in the years afterwards.
As if the bulls didn't beat better teams than the magic...
I think another factor which plays a role in why MJ will be considered "better" is because he accomplished so much yet, leaves room for reasonable speculation that he could have done even more.
Meanwhile, with Kobe, he's played every season essentially, so there is no room for speculation and so his story has clear bounds.
6 games played coming back from severe injury is not "essentially".
Why the constant need to twist the truth to make your point about the guy?
Kobe is and has been a great player. But he is not as good as Michael Jordan. Very few players will ever be as good as Jordan. Jordan was a pure shooter; Kobe is a good volume shooter.
Although Reggie Miller's statement was silly, the intent was accurate and appreciated. Michael was a much better player than Kobe Bryant.
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