I still don't see the point in comparing the two since only one will be in our draft range. As high as I am on levert I don't see any team taking him in the top 5. Johnson will be taken on upside alone...you have to admit that what he's doing at 18 years old is pretty impressive. I was listening to the announcers questioning his work ethic and saying that he comes by his body pretty naturally. I don't know if I buy that but if it's true he will have NBA teams drooling all over the idea of what he could become on an NBA training regiment.
Levert has skill in spades...he literally has everything you want from an NBA prospect and he still has some room to develop. However, he's not exactly what I would consider wiry. I'm concerned that he will never develop the strength to finish at the rim consistently because he's already 20 years old. for a jr in college hes built like a high school senior. He clearly spends a ton of time working on his basketball skills but he needs to get in the weight room asap.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 7:43 am Post subject:
PICKnPOP wrote:
I still don't see the point in comparing the two since only one will be in our draft range. As high as I am on levert I don't see any team taking him in the top 5. Johnson will be taken on upside alone...you have to admit that what he's doing at 18 years old is pretty impressive. I was listening to the announcers questioning his work ethic and saying that he comes by his body pretty naturally. I don't know if I buy that but if it's true he will have NBA teams drooling all over the idea of what he could become on an NBA training regiment.
Levert has skill in spades...he literally has everything you want from an NBA prospect and he still has some room to develop. However, he's not exactly what I would consider wiry. I'm concerned that he will never develop the strength to finish at the rim consistently because he's already 20 years old. for a jr in college hes built like a high school senior. He clearly spends a ton of time working on his basketball skills but he needs to get in the weight room asap.
I'm risky enough to draft him that high. GMs look bad for having Klay Thompson slip, but clearly, Jerry West and company knew something everyone else didn't know.
Weight is always the easiest to gain.
Ball-handling, the most difficult. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
Keep in mind when comparing the two. Stanley is only 18, Levert is 20 and a junior.
I do keep that in mind.
I also keep in mind that Stanley from 16-18, is the same player.
Levert, from 18-20, improved dramatically.
Stanley has improved his passing and jumpshot, he's consistent from the 3 and midrange now. With a full two seasons working on his game with NBA trainers he could improve dramatically from 18 -20. Levert wasn't this good at 18. Stanley bullied him this year when they played and he's a freshman going up against a junior. In two years he's going to be a lot better, his upside is much higher.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 9:20 pm Post subject:
Dave20 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Dave20 wrote:
Keep in mind when comparing the two. Stanley is only 18, Levert is 20 and a junior.
I do keep that in mind.
I also keep in mind that Stanley from 16-18, is the same player.
Levert, from 18-20, improved dramatically.
Stanley has improved his passing and jumpshot, he's consistent from the 3 and midrange now. With a full two seasons working on his game with NBA trainers he could improve dramatically from 18 -20. Levert wasn't this good at 18. Stanley bullied him this year when they played and he's a freshman going up against a junior. In two years he's going to be a lot better, his upside is much higher.
Passing and a jumpshot. Still a role player.
Great Offensive Upside is based on several key attributes for wing players:
Physical tools
Aggression
Ball-handling
Creativity
Work Ethic
Levert has all of those tools. Stanley is missing two.
Even Vince Carter lacked great ball-handling ability. He had to jump over everyone to be an elite scorer.
For McGrady who was perceived as the "more raw, less polished" cousin, he easily surpass Carter as a scorer.
Why?
Ball-handling.
As for Stanley Johnson being better than Levert at 18, doesn't matter to me.
Even Dwyane Wade was a late bloomer.
Physical tools.
Aggression.
Ball-handling.
Creativity.
Work Ethic.
To me, this is almost the same thinking as drafting Wesley Johnson #4 in the draft. Why?
"He's an elite athlete"
"He has a great wingspan"
"He's shooting over 40% behind the arc."
"He's a great finisher in transition"
While he lacks the aggression of Stanley, they had the same skill set. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
Keep in mind when comparing the two. Stanley is only 18, Levert is 20 and a junior.
I do keep that in mind.
I also keep in mind that Stanley from 16-18, is the same player.
Levert, from 18-20, improved dramatically.
Stanley has improved his passing and jumpshot, he's consistent from the 3 and midrange now. With a full two seasons working on his game with NBA trainers he could improve dramatically from 18 -20. Levert wasn't this good at 18. Stanley bullied him this year when they played and he's a freshman going up against a junior. In two years he's going to be a lot better, his upside is much higher.
Passing and a jumpshot. Still a role player.
Great Offensive Upside is based on several key attributes for wing players:
Physical tools
Aggression
Ball-handling
Creativity
Work Ethic
Levert has all of those tools. Stanley is missing two.
Even Vince Carter lacked great ball-handling ability. He had to jump over everyone to be an elite scorer.
For McGrady who was perceived as the "more raw, less polished" cousin, he easily surpass Carter as a scorer.
Why?
Ball-handling.
As for Stanley Johnson being better than Levert at 18, doesn't matter to me.
Even Dwyane Wade was a late bloomer.
Physical tools.
Aggression.
Ball-handling.
Creativity.
Work Ethic.
To me, this is almost the same thinking as drafting Wesley Johnson #4 in the draft. Why?
"He's an elite athlete"
"He has a great wingspan"
"He's shooting over 40% behind the arc."
"He's a great finisher in transition"
While he lacks the aggression of Stanley, they had the same skill set.
ya that is the skillset that needs to be avoided high in the draft. It fails more time than not. from Wes to Macklemore. Although, Stanley may be much better than those two off the dribble. I really need to watch film on how he's handled the ball in college. He was around passing my test in highschool.
Johnson has much better ball handling then Wesley and he also uses his 6'8 245 lb frame to get to the rim. Also, the players you keep comparing Stanley to are all juniors or seniors and are smaller. Wes was a 23 year old prospect, Stanley is only 18.
He doesn't have the handles of Levert but his handles are good enough. Levert doesn't have the strength to finish through contact like Stanley. Wade was a superior athlete and much stronger then Levert was, he was also quicker. One of the reasons Wade was so great was because he finished through contact, Levert doesn't. I would be concerned with Levert guarding Harden, Thompson, Beal or any other elite wing. With Stanley, I know he can hold his own against any wing player defensively.
He's the leading scorer on Arizona and not many plays are being called for him, that's says a lot. We're obviously seeing two different players, Stanley has proven in high school that he can beat guys off the dribble and he's doing the same in college.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 8:46 am Post subject:
Quote:
Johnson has much better ball handling then Wesley and he also uses his 6'8 245 lb frame to get to the rim. Also, the players you keep comparing Stanley to are all juniors or seniors and are smaller. Wes was a 23 year old prospect, Stanley is only 18.
Are you making an assumption that ball-handling is easy to fix?
Jodie Meeks spent a year on it. Still a straight line driver.
Quote:
He doesn't have the handles of Levert but his handles are good enough. Levert doesn't have the strength to finish through contact like Stanley. Wade was a superior athlete and much stronger then Levert was, he was also quicker. One of the reasons Wade was so great was because he finished through contact, Levert doesn't. I would be concerned with Levert guarding Harden, Thompson, Beal or any other elite wing. With Stanley, I know he can hold his own against any wing player defensively.
Define "good enough". If we're going lottery and we can't get Okafor, I want a guy who is going to be a dynamic offensive option.
Wade was NOT a superior athlete out of HS. He developed at the NCAA level. Gained 20lbs. Refined his great ball-handling skills out of HS. Became an unselfish passer.
You're concerned with Levert on defense, but if he has wingspan and lateral quickness, it's not as big a deal.
I'm concerned with Harden, Klay, and Beal sleeping on defense because Stanley Johnson goes right and has no counter move. No left hand. Nothing with pivot work. Just stops. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
Even as a straight line driver Jodie was effective at finishing after that year working on it.
Jump shots are easier to fix than ball handling though. Jordan Clarkson for example.
Stanley I think has a stronger aggression, base, and will than does Wesley Johnson who was pretty much who he'd be at 22 while Stanley is still about 2 years away from it.
Looking at Jimmy Butler and how he's been doing I think that's a good blueprint for Johnson.
What I truly want to see if Johnson was drafted by the Lakers is for Kobe and Worthy to work with him on a post game. That's what I'd like to see added to his game. It would help with his lack of ball handling right now, being able to post up considering his size and strength already.
@MikeLG Stanley's ball handling and change of direction were just fine in high school . unless you're kind of subscribing to my theory, and his ball handling has been poor at a higher level of hoop. If not you're really overstating his ball handling issue.
His ball handling was more comparable to Levert in high school than comparing him to Wesley.
Jodie Meeks had absolutely no ball handling skill and improved to being an effective driver out of the triple threat - albeit mainly because he's such a good shooter and gets chased off the 3point line ; or is always coming off a screen that already has his defender behind him. If Stanley's ball handling improves then he can be ball dominant.
That's what I've been saying, Stanley's ball handling is fine for a 18 year old that's 6'8 245 lbs. He shed defenders with his shoulders when slashing, he doesn't need a bunch of dribbles to get to the basket like Levert. He's already a good shooter and passer. He's only going to get better, two way player with star potential.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 2:34 pm Post subject:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
@MikeLG Stanley's ball handling and change of direction were just fine in high school . unless you're kind of subscribing to my theory, and his ball handling has been poor at a higher level of hoop. If not you're really overstating his ball handling issue.
His ball handling was more comparable to Levert in high school than comparing him to Wesley.
Jodie Meeks had absolutely no ball handling skill and improved to being an effective driver out of the triple threat - albeit mainly because he's such a good shooter and gets chased off the 3point line ; or is always coming off a screen that already has his defender behind him. If Stanley's ball handling improves then he can be ball dominant.
His change of direction starts at the beginning or is midway. When it's midway, he takes a jump shot.
I would refer to that as "average" ball-handling for an NBA wing.
What separates "good" NBA wings scorers from "great" is:
A) Nearly equal left hand.
B) Ability to change directions twice on the same drive
C) Using the pivot to change direction after the dribble is over
D) Not settling for a jumpshot
Kobe Bryant. Tracy McGrady. By the age of 17.
I have a VERY rough theory about breaking down defenses. Elite scoring PGs NEED A and B: Chris Paul, Tony Parker, Damien Lillard OR they compensate with athleticism AND length: Derrick Rose, Russell Westbrook.
But, wings have addtional height and NBA length, so they can compensate with the pivot foot and longer strides.
SGs and SFs can compensate with great pivot work, otherwise, they aren't the elite scorers they should be, because they can't change directions well. That's the difference between Bryant and McGrady vs. Vince Carter, Ray Allen, and Demar DeRozan.
Did VC, Ray Allen, or DeRozan ever develop that kind of ball-handling ability? No. Why? Because it's difficult once a player is past his teenage years.
Jodie Meeks did it, and he's still a directional driver. He needed what, 6 years in the league just to get to this point? Derek Fisher couldn't do it. Sasha Vujacic couldn't do it.
Even LeBron James' ball-handling is regressing. He got so used to jumping over and muscling up defenders at the NBA level, he didn't have to maintain multiple changes of direction out of HS. He had it once, and as a Cleveland Cavalier rookie, started out as a point guard before "regressing" to the SF role.
In fact, I was especially critical of Wiggins last year because he couldn't do it. How does he compensate? He has the pivot work, length, and athleticism.
Stanley doesn't have the pivot work. He doesn't have Wiggins' wingspan. He doesn't have Wiggins' full vert.
So, when I see a wing player e.g. Stanley Johnson or Justise Winslow not use it as part of their offensive game, I can't take them too seriously as a top option offensive scorer. So few get away with it.
DeRozan. Who is #1 option? Lowry.
Gerald Wallace. Who is #1 option? Jeff Green.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 2:52 pm Post subject:
Quote:
If Stanley's ball handling improves then he can be ball dominant.
Levert is already there, right now. He perfectly melds the idea of what it is to initiate the offense as a point guard, and running off the ball as a shooting guard.
He only needs strength to protect the ball better. Otherwise, this is no different than Jordan Clarkson at point guard in terms of strength, except Levert is a better shooter, playmaker, and defender.
Here's food for thought. How is Julius Randle's ball-handling any different from Stanley Johnson? At least PFs struggle to keep up with that at the NBA level. SFs and SGs? Not so much. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
If Stanley's ball handling improves then he can be ball dominant.
Levert is already there, right now. He perfectly melds the idea of what it is to initiate the offense as a point guard, and running off the ball as a shooting guard.
He only needs strength to protect the ball better. Otherwise, this is no different than Jordan Clarkson at point guard in terms of strength, except Levert is a better shooter, playmaker, and defender.
Here's food for thought. How is Julius Randle's ball-handling any different from Stanley Johnson? At least PFs struggle to keep up with that at the NBA level. SFs and SGs? Not so much.
Jules doesn't have this between the legs spin move
He doesnt have these hop behind the backs
He doesn't have this james Harden step-back
This is Stanley's potential. beat the man with a inside out, change direction/counter him with a crossover, and then hit him with a stepback. That play had the change of direction your looking for. That play looked like a ball dominant wing, specifically reminded me of James Harden. Stanley has to improve to be able to do this consistently, I know he doesn't really have it in his game right now - we agree.
But he's shown the moves - the hop behind the backs, the between the legs spin move, the multiple change of direction in this paragraph, the stepbacks. Having the moves is the most important thing at his age, he has to improve to doing them consistently and doing more efficient/effective things with those moves. That's def possible.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 6:11 pm Post subject:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:
If Stanley's ball handling improves then he can be ball dominant.
Levert is already there, right now. He perfectly melds the idea of what it is to initiate the offense as a point guard, and running off the ball as a shooting guard.
He only needs strength to protect the ball better. Otherwise, this is no different than Jordan Clarkson at point guard in terms of strength, except Levert is a better shooter, playmaker, and defender.
Here's food for thought. How is Julius Randle's ball-handling any different from Stanley Johnson? At least PFs struggle to keep up with that at the NBA level. SFs and SGs? Not so much.
Jules doesn't have this between the legs spin move
He doesnt have these hop behind the backs
He doesn't have this james Harden step-back
This is Stanley's potential. beat the man with a inside out, change direction/counter him with a crossover, and then hit him with a stepback. That play had the change of direction your looking for. That play looked like a ball dominant wing, specifically reminded me of James Harden. Stanley has to improve to be able to do this consistently, I know he doesn't really have it in his game right now - we agree.
But he's shown the moves - the hop behind the backs, the between the legs spin move, the multiple change of direction in this paragraph, the stepbacks. Having the moves is the most important thing at his age, he has to improve to doing them consistently and doing more efficient/effective things with those moves. That's def possible.
All that change of direction, for a jump shot.
That is my problem. James Harden has a step back too, but you know he can change directions, on the fly, getting towards the basket.
That's what I want.
Stanley Johnson works as a modern NBA wing because he has range and can go strong to the hoop. Mid-range? Post? I've been spoiled by elite wings of the past decade because they could do that stuff, and modern wings can't. But, one guy who can? Levert. Can't even say that of Justise Winslow, Kristaps Porzingis (who compensates with 7' height/length), Kelly Oubre, and DeAngelo Russell.
I don't want a guy who will use a step back jumper in Isolation.
I do want a guy who can break down a defender in isolation, in both directions, then when he sees help, can break down the help D.
Otherwise, a player has to compensate in some other way. Klay Thompson can't really change directions well, but he's such an elite shooter that it doesn't matter. Stephen Curry is the #1 option, because he's an elite shooter AND he can change directions well. That in-out dribble + crossover on the second defender is deadly.
I don't even like Shabazz Napier, but he has a job in the NBA simply because he can break down multiple players in a sequence. Pity his court vision isn't better, because he has a lot of shake. Otherwise, he'd be a scary lottery pick PG.
Above everything, it's disappointing to see the lack of great ball-handling wing players.
Now it's a PG league all over again. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
If Stanley's ball handling improves then he can be ball dominant.
Levert is already there, right now. He perfectly melds the idea of what it is to initiate the offense as a point guard, and running off the ball as a shooting guard.
He only needs strength to protect the ball better. Otherwise, this is no different than Jordan Clarkson at point guard in terms of strength, except Levert is a better shooter, playmaker, and defender.
Here's food for thought. How is Julius Randle's ball-handling any different from Stanley Johnson? At least PFs struggle to keep up with that at the NBA level. SFs and SGs? Not so much.
Jules doesn't have this between the legs spin move
He doesnt have these hop behind the backs
He doesn't have this james Harden step-back
This is Stanley's potential. beat the man with a inside out, change direction/counter him with a crossover, and then hit him with a stepback. That play had the change of direction your looking for. That play looked like a ball dominant wing, specifically reminded me of James Harden. Stanley has to improve to be able to do this consistently, I know he doesn't really have it in his game right now - we agree.
But he's shown the moves - the hop behind the backs, the between the legs spin move, the multiple change of direction in this paragraph, the stepbacks. Having the moves is the most important thing at his age, he has to improve to doing them consistently and doing more efficient/effective things with those moves. That's def possible.
All that change of direction, for a jump shot.
That is my problem. James Harden has a step back too, but you know he can change directions, on the fly, getting towards the basket.
That's what I want.
Stanley Johnson works as a modern NBA wing because he has range and can go strong to the hoop. Mid-range? Post? I've been spoiled by elite wings of the past decade because they could do that stuff, and modern wings can't. But, one guy who can? Levert. Can't even say that of Justise Winslow, Kristaps Porzingis (who compensates with 7' height/length), Kelly Oubre, and DeAngelo Russell.
I don't want a guy who will use a step back jumper in Isolation.
I do want a guy who can break down a defender in isolation, in both directions, then when he sees help, can break down the help D.
Otherwise, a player has to compensate in some other way. Klay Thompson can't really change directions well, but he's such an elite shooter that it doesn't matter. Stephen Curry is the #1 option, because he's an elite shooter AND he can change directions well. That in-out dribble + crossover on the second defender is deadly.
I don't even like Shabazz Napier, but he has a job in the NBA simply because he can break down multiple players in a sequence. Pity his court vision isn't better, because he has a lot of shake. Otherwise, he'd be a scary lottery pick PG.
Above everything, it's disappointing to see the lack of great ball-handling wing players.
Now it's a PG league all over again.
Like i said, he has the moves , he can work on being more efficient with them. That's only the next step of improvement.
And 60% of Harden's offense is stepback jumpshots, it's not a bad move to begin with. But he'll improve. He has a really good base for ball handling, that is, if it didn't regress at the college level.
I def agree that wing ball handling is weak at the NBA level. You have less than a handful ball dominant wings at all star+ caliber. That's pathetic. PFs have increased skill/handling as a whole, but wings can't get in the mix of what would be a skill renaissance.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 9:04 pm Post subject:
Quote:
And 60% of Harden's offense is stepback jumpshots, it's not a bad move to begin with. But he'll improve. He has a really good base for ball handling, that is, if it didn't regress at the college level
I only think it's that high, because he's relied upon so much for scoring. He has the option to drive in different ways when he wants to.
But, he's too busy drawing fouls. Even then, his playmaking, I hate to admit, is elite. He's actually an MVP candidate and playing D this year.
Makes me sick.
Ideally, in fantasy land, you run with Okafor, Randle, Johnson, Winslow, and Levert.
1 low post, 1 mid post, 2 40% 3pt. shooters, three elite perimeter defenders. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
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