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jodeke
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Joined: 17 Nov 2007
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Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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 Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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NickF wrote:
| Quote: | Everything you are saying NOW in 2014 is completely irrelevant to what people thought in the 50's. You keep bringing info NOW that is unrelated to what people thought THEN.
You can keep going on about the ills of communism but how is that in any way related to the fact the establishment was clearly threatened by it 50 years ago? |
I'm curious as to why you're so fascinated with a system that has very few holdings today. It exists in few nations with very little power, China, Cuba, Laos, North Korea, and Vietnam., China being the exception relating to power.
Do you think Communism will again be the power it was during the days of Khrushchev? It's proven to be a failed way to rule.
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America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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angrypuppy
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Joined: 13 Apr 2001
Posts: 32754
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| Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| NickF wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | | NickF wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | | NickF wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | | NickF wrote: | | The reason we hammered Cuba into the ground is because certain people have a vested interested in preventing a communist state from prospering so close to USA, might give the lower classes ideas. |
When has that ever happened? All the former Communist states turned to capitalism to end their economic troubles. |
You say that now, but that is irrelevant when we are talking about the 50's-60's and spread communism, it was a big threat to the people running this country. |
People who think Communism is great obviously never lived under it.
Let me guess you are one of those hipsters who think Communism is awesome?
When you have family that lived under the hammer and sickle of Communism then we can talk. We debate about how great a centrally planned economy and inefficiencies lead to everyone being poorer than dirt. The only people who benefit from Communism are the people who hold political power, and at the end of the day, that is the only group of people who benefit. It is a power grab pure and simple. |
Of course I don't think it's awesome, actually I think it's as much a failure as capitalism is to meet the demands of the world today. But whether one likes it or not is completely irrelevant when we are talking about the perceived threat of communism to the people dictating policy in USA in the 50's and later.
Don't you think it's interesting that you can't even talk about the origins of US policy to Cuba without having to thrown around accusations? People in USA are so programmed that they can't even discuss the subject. |
Or you could gain a perspective that there are Americans whose parents or family have fled from Communist regimes to live a better life in a capitalist society such as the USA. People aren't so naive as you think they are as they actually have real life experiences in the matter at hand. Does the USA have its share of problems? It sure does. But if you want to talk about failed systems, Communism is at the top. There isn't one functioning communist regime left in the world, not even ones that claim to fight for "workers" rights. They are communist in name only, as in the politicians in power have all the luxuries that are denied to their fellow "workers". |
Everything you are saying NOW in 2014 is completely irrelevant to what people thought in the 50's. You keep bringing info NOW that is unrelated to what people thought THEN.
You can keep going on about the ills of communism but how is that in any way related to the fact the establishment was clearly threatened by it 50 years ago?
You're so programmed that even the mere mention of the word in a context related to US policy, brings on a diatribe unrelated to the subject. |
Sure, if you the think that the threat of the USSR threatening nuclear annihilation make communism (which the USSR was not) a worthy alternative to capitalism (of which we are far from a pure form).
_________________
We are stardust
Billion year old carbon
We are golden
Caught in the devil's bargain
And we've got to get ourselves
Back to the garden
-Joni Mitchell |
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lakersken80
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Joined: 12 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| NickF wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | | NickF wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | | NickF wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | | NickF wrote: | | The reason we hammered Cuba into the ground is because certain people have a vested interested in preventing a communist state from prospering so close to USA, might give the lower classes ideas. |
When has that ever happened? All the former Communist states turned to capitalism to end their economic troubles. |
You say that now, but that is irrelevant when we are talking about the 50's-60's and spread communism, it was a big threat to the people running this country. |
People who think Communism is great obviously never lived under it.
Let me guess you are one of those hipsters who think Communism is awesome?
When you have family that lived under the hammer and sickle of Communism then we can talk. We debate about how great a centrally planned economy and inefficiencies lead to everyone being poorer than dirt. The only people who benefit from Communism are the people who hold political power, and at the end of the day, that is the only group of people who benefit. It is a power grab pure and simple. |
Of course I don't think it's awesome, actually I think it's as much a failure as capitalism is to meet the demands of the world today. But whether one likes it or not is completely irrelevant when we are talking about the perceived threat of communism to the people dictating policy in USA in the 50's and later.
Don't you think it's interesting that you can't even talk about the origins of US policy to Cuba without having to thrown around accusations? People in USA are so programmed that they can't even discuss the subject. |
Or you could gain a perspective that there are Americans whose parents or family have fled from Communist regimes to live a better life in a capitalist society such as the USA. People aren't so naive as you think they are as they actually have real life experiences in the matter at hand. Does the USA have its share of problems? It sure does. But if you want to talk about failed systems, Communism is at the top. There isn't one functioning communist regime left in the world, not even ones that claim to fight for "workers" rights. They are communist in name only, as in the politicians in power have all the luxuries that are denied to their fellow "workers". |
Everything you are saying NOW in 2014 is completely irrelevant to what people thought in the 50's. You keep bringing info NOW that is unrelated to what people thought THEN.
You can keep going on about the ills of communism but how is that in any way related to the fact the establishment was clearly threatened by it 50 years ago?
You're so programmed that even the mere mention of the word in a context related to US policy, brings on a diatribe unrelated to the subject. |
The principles of communism are the same as it was in 1950 as it is in 2014. I think people who actually know the ills of that system are willing to speak out against it, so if thats a diatribe then so be it. But don't pretend to talk like you know anything about it. I think thats the problem with people who learn about the system at the university level versus knowing people who lived under it. |
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lakersken80
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Joined: 12 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | NickF wrote:
| Quote: | Everything you are saying NOW in 2014 is completely irrelevant to what people thought in the 50's. You keep bringing info NOW that is unrelated to what people thought THEN.
You can keep going on about the ills of communism but how is that in any way related to the fact the establishment was clearly threatened by it 50 years ago? |
I'm curious as to why you're so fascinated with a system that has very few holdings today. It exists in few nations with very little power, China, Cuba, Laos, North Korea, and Vietnam., China being the exception relating to power.
Do you think Communism will again be the power it was during the days of Khrushchev? It's proven to be a failed way to rule. |
China only gained its increasing global power because it went to a market based economy with Deng's market reforms. The government is still doing whatever it can do to keep its grip on power. |
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jodeke
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Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67631
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| lakersken80 wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | NickF wrote:
| Quote: | Everything you are saying NOW in 2014 is completely irrelevant to what people thought in the 50's. You keep bringing info NOW that is unrelated to what people thought THEN.
You can keep going on about the ills of communism but how is that in any way related to the fact the establishment was clearly threatened by it 50 years ago? |
I'm curious as to why you're so fascinated with a system that has very few holdings today. It exists in few nations with very little power, China, Cuba, Laos, North Korea, and Vietnam., China being the exception relating to power.
Do you think Communism will again be the power it was during the days of Khrushchev? It's proven to be a failed way to rule. |
China only gained its increasing global power because it went to a market based economy with Deng's market reforms. The government is still doing whatever it can do to keep its grip on power. |
OK but that doesn't answer the bold question
Would you trade would you trade ROYAL OSSETRA for CALIFORNIA ROYAL WHITE?
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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NickF
Star Player
Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 1946
Location: Caerbannog
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | NickF wrote:
| Quote: | Everything you are saying NOW in 2014 is completely irrelevant to what people thought in the 50's. You keep bringing info NOW that is unrelated to what people thought THEN.
You can keep going on about the ills of communism but how is that in any way related to the fact the establishment was clearly threatened by it 50 years ago? |
I'm curious as to why you're so fascinated with a system that has very few holdings today. It exists in few nations with very little power, China, Cuba, Laos, North Korea, and Vietnam., China being the exception relating to power.
Do you think Communism will again be the power it was during the days of Khrushchev? It's proven to be a failed way to rule. |
What I find amazing is why people somehow feel the need to keep mentioning this as if even talking about communism is somehow an endorsement of it. Are you even capable of discussing anything that includes the word "communism" without endless refrain that it's bad a failure etc etc?
If I told you Josef Stalin was a communist would you feel the need to endlessly pontificate that it's BAD, A FAILURE etc? |
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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Jodeke --
Here's a question to consider: Was Communism (as an economic system) ever the thing that really scared people? Or was it the prospect of aggression from people (both foreign and domestic) who wanted to overthrow our system?
It was mostly the latter, in my opinion. We weren't so much concerned with the economic system as the exportation of revolution. As you know, there is a contemporary analogy that doesn't involve Communism at all. |
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NickF
Star Player
Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 1946
Location: Caerbannog
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | Jodeke --
Here's a question to consider: Was Communism (as an economic system) ever the thing that really scared people? Or was it the prospect of aggression from people (both foreign and domestic) who wanted to overthrow our system?
It was mostly the latter, in my opinion. We weren't so much concerned with the economic system as the exportation of revolution. As you know, there is a contemporary analogy that doesn't involve Communism at all. |
When you say "Scared people", whom do you mean, what scares Joe Public isn't the same as what scares the Rockefeller's, Koch, Walton's etc. |
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jodeke
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Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67631
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| NickF wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | NickF wrote:
| Quote: | Everything you are saying NOW in 2014 is completely irrelevant to what people thought in the 50's. You keep bringing info NOW that is unrelated to what people thought THEN.
You can keep going on about the ills of communism but how is that in any way related to the fact the establishment was clearly threatened by it 50 years ago? |
I'm curious as to why you're so fascinated with a system that has very few holdings today. It exists in few nations with very little power, China, Cuba, Laos, North Korea, and Vietnam., China being the exception relating to power.
Do you think Communism will again be the power it was during the days of Khrushchev? It's proven to be a failed way to rule. |
What I find amazing is why people somehow feel the need to keep mentioning this as if even talking about communism is somehow an endorsement of it. Are you even capable of discussing anything that includes the word "communism" without endless refrain that it's bad a failure etc etc?
If I told you Josef Stalin was a communist would you feel the need to endlessly pontificate that it's BAD, A FAILURE etc? |
Where did I indicate I thought anyone was endorsing anything. I asked a simple question that has yet to be answered. Do you think Communism will again be the power it was during the days of Khrushchev? You're reading and adding too much into a simple question.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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jodeke
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Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67631
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | Jodeke --
Here's a question to consider: Was Communism (as an economic system) ever the thing that really scared people? Or was it the prospect of aggression from people (both foreign and domestic) who wanted to overthrow our system?
It was mostly the latter, in my opinion. We weren't so much concerned with the economic system as the exportation of revolution. As you know, there is a contemporary analogy that doesn't involve Communism at all. |
I don't think there was a fear of the economic system. I think it was ideals.
On the out side it looks great, common ownership, no need for money, absence of social class and other ideals that on paper look great.
I believe the angst was the system attack. Communism vs Democracy.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| NickF wrote: | | When you say "Scared people", whom do you mean, what scares Joe Public isn't the same as what scares the Rockefeller's, Koch, Walton's etc. |
Well, some things are the same, while other things are different. In this case, I don't think it was particularly different. The capitalists were definitely frightened by 1917, especially when the Great Depression arrived and we had masses of angry, unemployed men. But in the end the fear was rooted in the (accurate) belief that there were people who wanted to overthrow our society. |
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AllorNothing
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Joined: 08 Oct 2001
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Just think of all the vintage cars still available in Cuba. |
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