Kobe's shot more contested mid range Js than 12 teams(ESPN)
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KeepItRealOrElse
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 12:47 am    Post subject: Kobe's shot more contested mid range Js than 12 teams(ESPN)

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=12049199

short video.
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terpski
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:03 am    Post subject:

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again (Kobe shooting long contested jumpers to win games) and expecting a different outcome (we win).

Kobe, the Lakers and Laker fans are insane.


Last edited by terpski on Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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fiendishoc
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:11 am    Post subject:

That's pretty much what's going to happen when you run more isolations and single option pindowns than 29 other teams.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:15 am    Post subject:

I call bullbleep.
I'm a guy that likes to quantify things, but unless you know what you're quantifying it's relatively worthless. This guy falls into the worse then useless category

There's been a long running complaint by coaches about the absolute absence of mid-range shooters in the league. Everyone's either a driver or a 3pt shooter.
Kobe's one of the few guys in the league that spent the time and effort to perfect that mid-range shot and all the moves that lead up to it. He's worked exhaustively on the footwork for those turnarounds and the upfakes and all the rest of it. Over the years, he's been pretty good with those shots - so naturally, he's taken a lot of them and probably will in the future

Gee, his shooting % is low on them this year? Guess what, his shooting % on all his shots is down this year by almost 7 percentage pts under his career average, so it's no surprise his mid-range % is down too.

About the only useful piece of info in that video was that less then 50% of Kobe's contested mid-range shots come with single digits on the shot clock.

The implied problem presented in that video is that Kobe's suddenly jacking up all these mid-range shots and it's hurting the lakers - but no data is presented to support the first, and the data that is presented on the 2nd isn't complete

what would have been useful and accurate would have been to tell us how many contested mid-range shots he took this year vs past years for a comparable stretch of games. That might have actually told us if he's taking more of mid-range shots this year, which might be because he doesn't have the legs to take 3's or go to the hoop.

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Last edited by P.K. on Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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Jeggs
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:42 am    Post subject:

Kobe just isn't the same. I think the Achilles has affected his shot. I think if Kobe starts shooting the ball like curry, on the way up instead of at the peak he would gain more accuracy.
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fansincemagic
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:47 am    Post subject:

I think my link was broke, it cut off before the kid gave his plan to run better opportunities.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 2:26 am    Post subject:

And I'd be good if he was making them at his old clip, but his shooting has been putrid. Before every game we play, you can chalk up 20+ misses to Kobe alone. His main focus should be on ball movement and on shooting the ball 15-18 times while maximising his looks, but it ain't gonna happen.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:25 am    Post subject:

terpski wrote:


Kobe, the Lakers and Laker fans are insane.


I have known for years that Kobe is insane. People who achieve at the extremes are not normal and usually have a pathology that fuels the extremism. The Lakers FO enabled the insanity with the current contract. Insane 28 year old Kobe = greatness. Insane 36 year old Kobe = cringeworthy
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:53 am    Post subject:

What's crap is their insinuation that the Lakers would be better off without him playing. If it's not Kobe shooting the contested J's, then it'd be Swaggy shooting them, and you'd miss Kobe's passing and playmaking sorely. Other than today's game (which I hope they build on) the Lakers have next to nothing going towards the basket.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 5:18 am    Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:
What's crap is their insinuation that the Lakers would be better off without him playing. If it's not Kobe shooting the contested J's, then it'd be Swaggy shooting them, and you'd miss Kobe's passing and playmaking sorely. Other than today's game (which I hope they build on) the Lakers have next to nothing going towards the basket.


No, the open man would be shooting a higher percentage shot. Offense isn't the problem on this team. There are are bunch of scorers on this team. Kobe needs to stop taking low percentage shots.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 5:32 am    Post subject:

terpski wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
What's crap is their insinuation that the Lakers would be better off without him playing. If it's not Kobe shooting the contested J's, then it'd be Swaggy shooting them, and you'd miss Kobe's passing and playmaking sorely. Other than today's game (which I hope they build on) the Lakers have next to nothing going towards the basket.


No, the open man would be shooting a higher percentage shot. Offense isn't the problem on this team. There are are bunch of scorers on this team. Kobe needs to stop taking low percentage shots.


Kobe has always taken low % shots, when he was younger more went in because he was young and strong, now Kobe is old and not so strong, so less go in, unfortunately Kobe's mind and body are working in different directions. His mind is taking the shots his body can no longer make
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:40 am    Post subject:

terpski wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
What's crap is their insinuation that the Lakers would be better off without him playing. If it's not Kobe shooting the contested J's, then it'd be Swaggy shooting them, and you'd miss Kobe's passing and playmaking sorely. Other than today's game (which I hope they build on) the Lakers have next to nothing going towards the basket.


No, the open man would be shooting a higher percentage shot. Offense isn't the problem on this team. There are are bunch of scorers on this team. Kobe needs to stop taking low percentage shots.


What open man? With most of the plays that they run there is no open man unless you put Kobe in the pick and roll, or if the other team doubles him. My point is that for the most part, the offense gets so many crappy shots because of what they're running, not because Kobe is breaking off plays. Yes, his shooting has also fallen off in general, but its dumb to suggest the team is better when he's sitting. So you also see Swaggy also shooting the fewest close range shots and one of the lowest % of his entire career.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 9:24 am    Post subject:

Folks can twists stats to say whatever they want to say. All I see is Kobe missing shots he used to make with ease
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 9:59 am    Post subject:

Kobe's been taking a lot of midrange for years now. No surprise here.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 10:04 am    Post subject:

Jeggs wrote:
Kobe just isn't the same. I think the Achilles has affected his shot. I think if Kobe starts shooting the ball like curry, on the way up instead of at the peak he would gain more accuracy.


can someone please pass this information to Kobe? thx
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 10:41 am    Post subject:

It's too bad he hasn't adjust his game at all. Become a stronger 3-pt threat, for instance. Spotting up from the corners.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:11 am    Post subject:

Kobe takes a lot of mid range jump shots.....Water is wet.....so what?

Like other posters have stated, Kobe has been taking a lot of mid-range jump shots his ENTIRE career. Contested, or otherwise.

That doesn't seem to be the issue. What seems to be the insinuation is the same age old theme of, "Kobe takes too many shots". But, I'm going to leave that theme alone, because it's an old war. An old, stupid war, I refuse to engage in. Instead, I'll focus solely on the mid range jumper aspect.

It's pretty well known that, despite looking much better than people anticipated, Kobe's physical prowess has fallen into decline. He no longer has the consistent quickness to get to the basket at will. Kobe has always been an average long range shooter, at best. So, now, his best offense comes from mid range, or the post.

Other than Nick Young, Kobe is the Lakers best offensive player. so teams are going to focus their defense on him. Even if Byron inserted the Lakers best offensive players, like Lin, Boozer, Young, Ellington...this would still be the case. Things are much worse, when Kobe is playing with the offensively anemic starting lineup. He has to direct/facilitate the offense, as well as try to get his own...all on his own.

With all these factors taken into account, is it any wonder that no matter what Kobe does, pass or shoot, that it's "contested"? So, I guess the whole point of my post is, "Kobe shoots a lot of contested shots".....

"Duh?"


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:16 am    Post subject:

Jeggs wrote:
Kobe just isn't the same. I think the Achilles has affected his shot. I think if Kobe starts shooting the ball like curry, on the way up instead of at the peak he would gain more accuracy.


You think?

People make it seem as if this guy is a robot and should have come back better than before. That's how he has spoiled us for almost 20 years.

I'll be the first to say Kobe this year is playing like garbage...but compared to what he use to be.

But then I remember how delusional do you have to be to think a guy who is 36 years old can come back to the same legendary level we are use to after completely tearing one of the most important muscles in the human body.

Walking the same would be difficult for some, and here he is running up and down with some of the best athletes in the world.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:18 am    Post subject:

nevitt_smrek wrote:
It's too bad he hasn't adjust his game at all. Become a stronger 3-pt threat, for instance. Spotting up from the corners.


I blame BS for that. He puts Kobe at PG. What do you expect him to do?
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:37 am    Post subject:

Merge.

Also. I was just saying in the Kobe Game Play thread last night that kobe is the first, second, and third option on our team. And that's why his FG is suffering (in addition to injury recovery time and age).
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 12:58 pm    Post subject:

P.K. wrote:
I call bullbleep.
I'm a guy that likes to quantify things, but unless you know what you're quantifying it's relatively worthless. This guy falls into the worse then useless category

There's been a long running complaint by coaches about the absolute absence of mid-range shooters in the league. Everyone's either a driver or a 3pt shooter.
Kobe's one of the few guys in the league that spent the time and effort to perfect that mid-range shot and all the moves that lead up to it. He's worked exhaustively on the footwork for those turnarounds and the upfakes and all the rest of it. Over the years, he's been pretty good with those shots - so naturally, he's taken a lot of them and probably will in the future

Gee, his shooting % is low on them this year? Guess what, his shooting % on all his shots is down this year by almost 7 percentage pts under his career average, so it's no surprise his mid-range % is down too.

About the only useful piece of info in that video was that less then 50% of Kobe's contested mid-range shots come with single digits on the shot clock.

The implied problem presented in that video is that Kobe's suddenly jacking up all these mid-range shots and it's hurting the lakers - but no data is presented to support the first, and the data that is presented on the 2nd isn't complete

what would have been useful and accurate would have been to tell us how many contested mid-range shots he took this year vs past years for a comparable stretch of games. That might have actually told us if he's taking more of mid-range shots this year, which might be because he doesn't have the legs to take 3's or go to the hoop.

worse then useless


I disagree, it was a very enlightening video.. It shows how the Lakers have no offensive identity and how Byron Scott isn't coaching to get people open shots. Teams' offense are designed to get a player open for the shot. If Kobe trusts his teammates he passes, if he doesn't he takes contested shots.

The high number of contested shots that Kobe takes shows there isn't an offense to get an open shot, or Kobe doesn't believe in the offense.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:00 pm    Post subject:

Kobe2Clark wrote:
Folks can twists stats to say whatever they want to say. All I see is Kobe missing shots he used to make with ease

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:14 pm    Post subject:

ppineda wrote:
P.K. wrote:
I call bullbleep.
I'm a guy that likes to quantify things, but unless you know what you're quantifying it's relatively worthless. This guy falls into the worse then useless category

There's been a long running complaint by coaches about the absolute absence of mid-range shooters in the league. Everyone's either a driver or a 3pt shooter.
Kobe's one of the few guys in the league that spent the time and effort to perfect that mid-range shot and all the moves that lead up to it. He's worked exhaustively on the footwork for those turnarounds and the upfakes and all the rest of it. Over the years, he's been pretty good with those shots - so naturally, he's taken a lot of them and probably will in the future

Gee, his shooting % is low on them this year? Guess what, his shooting % on all his shots is down this year by almost 7 percentage pts under his career average, so it's no surprise his mid-range % is down too.

About the only useful piece of info in that video was that less then 50% of Kobe's contested mid-range shots come with single digits on the shot clock.

The implied problem presented in that video is that Kobe's suddenly jacking up all these mid-range shots and it's hurting the lakers - but no data is presented to support the first, and the data that is presented on the 2nd isn't complete

what would have been useful and accurate would have been to tell us how many contested mid-range shots he took this year vs past years for a comparable stretch of games. That might have actually told us if he's taking more of mid-range shots this year, which might be because he doesn't have the legs to take 3's or go to the hoop.

worse then useless


I disagree, it was a very enlightening video.. It shows how the Lakers have no offensive identity and how Byron Scott isn't coaching to get people open shots. Teams' offense are designed to get a player open for the shot. If Kobe trusts his teammates he passes, if he doesn't he takes contested shots.

The high number of contested shots that Kobe takes shows there isn't an offense to get an open shot, or Kobe doesn't believe in the offense.

except for that fact that Kobe has always taken those shots, even when they had Phil and even when they had a good team. He's always taken them.
So, what makes this video so enlightening? Do they put these shots in some kind of context of:
1. he's taking more of them this year?
2. he's missing a lot more of them then he has in years past?
3. is he now missing mid-range shots at a much higher rate then he's missing other types of shots?

Telling us he shots a lot of contested mid range shots is just telling me something I've already observed myself for the last 18 years.
Telling me he's missed a lot of them this year also isn't enlightening, since any idiot can see he's shooting at a lower % then he has in the past.

So, what's so enlightening about telling us something anyone could observe him/herself across the last 18 years?

worse yet, the way that video is presented seems deliberately misleading.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:17 pm    Post subject:

thejet24 wrote:
Jeggs wrote:
Kobe just isn't the same. I think the Achilles has affected his shot. I think if Kobe starts shooting the ball like curry, on the way up instead of at the peak he would gain more accuracy.


You think?

People make it seem as if this guy is a robot and should have come back better than before. That's how he has spoiled us for almost 20 years.

I'll be the first to say Kobe this year is playing like garbage...but compared to what he use to be.

But then I remember how delusional do you have to be to think a guy who is 36 years old can come back to the same legendary level we are use to after completely tearing one of the most important muscles in the human body.

Walking the same would be difficult for some, and here he is running up and down with some of the best athletes in the world.


Well said.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:32 pm    Post subject:

Jeggs wrote:
Kobe just isn't the same. I think the Achilles has affected his shot. I think if Kobe starts shooting the ball like curry, on the way up instead of at the peak he would gain more accuracy.


Curry barely jumps on his jumper. the new trend in the NBA. Never been Kobe, he's always elevated over the defense
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