How much better would Kobe look if the refs didn't abuse him?
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activeverb
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:24 am    Post subject: Re: How much better would Kobe look if the refs didn't abuse him?

ROTL wrote:
And he was as protected as Jordan/Wade/Harden/Lebron? Not only is he not as protected as them but he is allowed to be blatantly fouled with no call. So it's a double killer to his numbers. If he got the ref treatment other stars get, I don't think there would be any doubt he was the GOAT. As it stands he's top 5 despite playing against the other team and the refs most of his career.


I think you insult Kobe by making woulda-coulda-shoulda statements on his behalf.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 1:38 pm    Post subject:

Gwyn wrote:
Treble Clef wrote:
Another one of those "the whole world is against the Lakers" threads


So don't read them then.


Maybe you shouldn't have read my reply.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 1:46 pm    Post subject: Re: How much better would Kobe look if the refs didn't abuse him?

activeverb wrote:
ROTL wrote:
And he was as protected as Jordan/Wade/Harden/Lebron? Not only is he not as protected as them but he is allowed to be blatantly fouled with no call. So it's a double killer to his numbers. If he got the ref treatment other stars get, I don't think there would be any doubt he was the GOAT. As it stands he's top 5 despite playing against the other team and the refs most of his career.


I think you insult Kobe by making woulda-coulda-shoulda statements on his behalf.


Naw...it's a huge compliment. Despite being routinely screwed over by refs that parade other stars to the line, Kobe is a top 5 player of all time. Kobe has overcome corruption and a blatant agenda against him both by tr league and the media.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 1:48 pm    Post subject: Re: How much better would Kobe look if the refs didn't abuse him?

activeverb wrote:
ROTL wrote:
And he was as protected as Jordan/Wade/Harden/Lebron? Not only is he not as protected as them but he is allowed to be blatantly fouled with no call. So it's a double killer to his numbers. If he got the ref treatment other stars get, I don't think there would be any doubt he was the GOAT. As it stands he's top 5 despite playing against the other team and the refs most of his career.


I think you insult Kobe by making woulda-coulda-shoulda statements on his behalf.


Indeed. It also looks weak to cry that everyone is beating up Kobe in the post. Kobe is kicking everyone's butt in there.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 2:00 pm    Post subject: Re: How much better would Kobe look if the refs didn't abuse him?

Treble Clef wrote:
activeverb wrote:
ROTL wrote:
And he was as protected as Jordan/Wade/Harden/Lebron? Not only is he not as protected as them but he is allowed to be blatantly fouled with no call. So it's a double killer to his numbers. If he got the ref treatment other stars get, I don't think there would be any doubt he was the GOAT. As it stands he's top 5 despite playing against the other team and the refs most of his career.


I think you insult Kobe by making woulda-coulda-shoulda statements on his behalf.


Indeed. It also looks weak to cry that everyone is beating up Kobe in the post. Kobe is kicking everyone's butt in there.


Yes, that's a valid point. Anyway, I think the OP is trying to sucker us into another "Is Kobe a top 5 player?" or "Kobe vs. Jordan" argument. I'll take a pass. I was bored when I wrote my first response, so this thread caught me in a moment of weakness. I repent.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 2:12 pm    Post subject: Re: How much better would Kobe look if the refs didn't abuse him?

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Treble Clef wrote:
activeverb wrote:
ROTL wrote:
And he was as protected as Jordan/Wade/Harden/Lebron? Not only is he not as protected as them but he is allowed to be blatantly fouled with no call. So it's a double killer to his numbers. If he got the ref treatment other stars get, I don't think there would be any doubt he was the GOAT. As it stands he's top 5 despite playing against the other team and the refs most of his career.


I think you insult Kobe by making woulda-coulda-shoulda statements on his behalf.


Indeed. It also looks weak to cry that everyone is beating up Kobe in the post. Kobe is kicking everyone's butt in there.


Yes, that's a valid point. Anyway, I think the OP is trying to sucker us into another "Is Kobe a top 5 player?" or "Kobe vs. Jordan" argument. I'll take a pass. I was bored when I wrote my first response, so this thread caught me in a moment of weakness. I repent.



There is no argument about whether Kobe is top 5 all time. The skills and rings make it so.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 2:24 pm    Post subject: Re: How much better would Kobe look if the refs didn't abuse him?

ROTL wrote:
activeverb wrote:
ROTL wrote:
And he was as protected as Jordan/Wade/Harden/Lebron? Not only is he not as protected as them but he is allowed to be blatantly fouled with no call. So it's a double killer to his numbers. If he got the ref treatment other stars get, I don't think there would be any doubt he was the GOAT. As it stands he's top 5 despite playing against the other team and the refs most of his career.


I think you insult Kobe by making woulda-coulda-shoulda statements on his behalf.


Naw...it's a huge compliment. Despite being routinely screwed over by refs that parade other stars to the line, Kobe is a top 5 player of all time. Kobe has overcome corruption and a blatant agenda against him both by tr league and the media.


My eyes have officially glazed over. Have fun.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 2:20 pm    Post subject:

Did the refs "abuse" him when Marion "fouled" him on that three?
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:01 pm    Post subject:

ppineda wrote:
KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
Vixen wrote:
He already averages more free throws per shot attempt then Jordan, despite being much more of a jump shooter and having taken over one thousand more three point shots. He gets his calls, just like every superstar has, and some calls are missed.



That argument only works if you assume that MJ and Kobe are equally as skilled. The fact is that Kobe has been a far more skilled player throughout his career and just to make games competitive, the league refs operated under a sort of Anti-Jordan Rules called the Kobe rules. For a few years, he was fouled on virtually every single possession but wasn't given the call because it would have been like watching Barry Bonds walked 250 times a season. The league changed the rules on what you could do to perimeter players and then allowed Kobe to be treated as if it were the mid 80's.


It's definitely cost Kobe points and FG% points.


Equally as skilled as Jordan?! Jordan shot a MUCH better percentage and Kobe went to the line A TON and you are complaining he needed more? Kobe plays in a world without hand checking, if MJ had that he would have dropped 50 a night when he played. Shaq was fouled on almost every possesion, and didn't get calls. Kobe was able to elbow Bibby in the face and get the foul called on Bibby. Your comparison is laughable.

There are no Kobe rules, other than Kobe parades to the free throw line, but do you know what the "Jordan Rules" were? The Pistons did that to play 4 or 5 on 1 and physically beat him up every play to try and stop him. Kobe had Shaq who always needed a double team. Never had to deal with a situation like that and then couldn't do anything without a HOF big man. After these last two seasons, no one will be having Kobe as GOAT... He is easily top 10 all time. I have Kobe 6 or 7th best ever to play the game. But he's not close to MJ... Sorry.




Lol the jordan mythology continues
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:12 pm    Post subject:

ppineda wrote:
KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
Vixen wrote:
He already averages more free throws per shot attempt then Jordan, despite being much more of a jump shooter and having taken over one thousand more three point shots. He gets his calls, just like every superstar has, and some calls are missed.



That argument only works if you assume that MJ and Kobe are equally as skilled. The fact is that Kobe has been a far more skilled player throughout his career and just to make games competitive, the league refs operated under a sort of Anti-Jordan Rules called the Kobe rules. For a few years, he was fouled on virtually every single possession but wasn't given the call because it would have been like watching Barry Bonds walked 250 times a season. The league changed the rules on what you could do to perimeter players and then allowed Kobe to be treated as if it were the mid 80's.


It's definitely cost Kobe points and FG% points.


Equally as skilled as Jordan?! Jordan shot a MUCH better percentage and Kobe went to the line A TON and you are complaining he needed more? Kobe plays in a world without hand checking, if MJ had that he would have dropped 50 a night when he played. Shaq was fouled on almost every possesion, and didn't get calls. Kobe was able to elbow Bibby in the face and get the foul called on Bibby. Your comparison is laughable.

There are no Kobe rules, other than Kobe parades to the free throw line, but do you know what the "Jordan Rules" were? The Pistons did that to play 4 or 5 on 1 and physically beat him up every play to try and stop him. Kobe had Shaq who always needed a double team. Never had to deal with a situation like that and then couldn't do anything without a HOF big man. After these last two seasons, no one will be having Kobe as GOAT... He is easily top 10 all time. I have Kobe 6 or 7th best ever to play the game. But he's not close to MJ... Sorry.



You have no need to apologize to me for being wrong. It's your God Given right as a full blooded, God-fearing 'Merican.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:14 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
Vixen wrote:
He already averages more free throws per shot attempt then Jordan, despite being much more of a jump shooter and having taken over one thousand more three point shots. He gets his calls, just like every superstar has, and some calls are missed.



That argument only works if you assume that MJ and Kobe are equally as skilled. The fact is that Kobe has been a far more skilled player throughout his career and just to make games competitive, the league refs operated under a sort of Anti-Jordan Rules called the Kobe rules. For a few years, he was fouled on virtually every single possession but wasn't given the call because it would have been like watching Barry Bonds walked 250 times a season. The league changed the rules on what you could do to perimeter players and then allowed Kobe to be treated as if it were the mid 80's.


It's definitely cost Kobe points and FG% points.


This is an opinion, not a fact.


Actually, I was citing a fact, you're citing an opinion, one that is wrong BTW. Kobe's skillset was far superior to MJ's. It's not even close.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:16 pm    Post subject:

24 wrote:
Jordan had a smaller toolkit than Kobe, just as Shaq had a smaller toolkit than a bunch of other elite all time bigs. Because both had such elite physical gifts that they developed around and in MJ's case, faced far less athletic defenders and, unlike Kobe, had the refs in his pocket. Mj shot a higher percentage on less overall moves because he could.


Fixed it for Ya.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:17 pm    Post subject:

24 wrote:
Jordan had a smaller toolkit than Kobe, just as Shaq had a smaller toolkit than a bunch of other elite all time bigs. Because both had such elite physical gifts that they developed around. Mj shot a higher percentage on less overall moves because he could.


You mods need to get your argument straight.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:18 pm    Post subject:

24 wrote:
It is actually a testament to Kobe that he developed all the other stuff to help close the gap, but the gap is there, and there's no purpose in dogging mj for not widening the net beyond what he needed, any more than there is for dogging Shaq for not developing an 18 foot jumper. Didn't need it, and you wouldn't want him doing that when he does other things so unstoppably.


Now THAT is an opinion.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:20 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
Discounting opinion that goes against narrative as told by powerful people is easy. I don't really care who or how many roll eyes, or how long the insults to Justice in the form of NBA refs has been going on, I'm good with my opinion on the subject.


That's fine with me. It speaks volumes about the wasteland of this season that we're even having this discussion again.


We could be headed to 73 wins and we'd still be having this discussion. This is LG. Net, where every thread turns into Kobe v. MJ. We're no different than the rest of the basketball World except we have more in camp Kobe.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:23 pm    Post subject:

LuciusAllen wrote:
KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Come on, man. If you're going to be a pro-Kobe mythologist, at least be creative. The whole "refs hate Kobe" thing is an eye roller for anyone other than the true believers. To everyone else, you just sound silly. Besides, it's just . . . old.

Here are some suggestions for new, fresh material:

Aliens are beaming waves into people's heads to make them think that MJ/Lebron/Magic/whoever was better than Kobe.

MJ/Lebron/Magic/whoever is an alien-human hybrid. Kobe is a genuine human being.

Kobe is an alien-human hybrid. This is why he is superior, and it is also why ESPN, the refs, David Stern, and Fox Mulder are out to discredit him.

The pro-Jordan Eastern media rigs the stats. Kobe actually made a lot more shots than what you see in the box scores.

Pro-Jordan thugs messed up Kobe's fingers, knees, and Achilles.


Discounting opinion that goes against narrative as told by powerful people is easy. I don't really care who or how many roll eyes, or how long the insults to Justice in the form of NBA refs has been going on, I'm good with my opinion on the subject.

The irony of your opinion, of course, is that Kobe himself would probably disagree with you.

Quote:
"Nowadays, literally anybody can get out there and get to the basket because you can't touch anybody," he said. "Back then, guys put their hands on you, you had to have the skill to be able to go both ways, change directions and post up. You had to have midrange game because you didn't want to go all the way to the basket because you'd get knocked [flat]. Playing the game back then required much more skill."


http://www.latimes.com/sports/lakers/la-sp-lakers-fyi-20140121-story.html

I think your argument would be that the refs hold Kobe to the old-school standard and everyone else to a different, more finesse-y standard. If that's true, Kobe's response was to develop the kinds of skills to adjust to that contact, rather than complain. And if he ain't complaining, I ain't complaining.



That's exactly my argument, well at least part of it. Kobe also had to face far bigger, longer and athletic defenders than Jordan and the Zone rules never allowed Kobe to just clear out one side of the court to go one on one against some dude 4" shorter than him.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:24 pm    Post subject:

pjiddy wrote:
You could turn it around and say Kobe's inability to get the refs to like him the same way they like MJ, Harden, and every other player to ever play in the NBA, keeps him short of GOAT status.


I could, but I don't make stupid arguments.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:24 pm    Post subject:

Gwyn wrote:
LuciusAllen wrote:
KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Come on, man. If you're going to be a pro-Kobe mythologist, at least be creative. The whole "refs hate Kobe" thing is an eye roller for anyone other than the true believers. To everyone else, you just sound silly. Besides, it's just . . . old.

Here are some suggestions for new, fresh material:

Aliens are beaming waves into people's heads to make them think that MJ/Lebron/Magic/whoever was better than Kobe.

MJ/Lebron/Magic/whoever is an alien-human hybrid. Kobe is a genuine human being.

Kobe is an alien-human hybrid. This is why he is superior, and it is also why ESPN, the refs, David Stern, and Fox Mulder are out to discredit him.

The pro-Jordan Eastern media rigs the stats. Kobe actually made a lot more shots than what you see in the box scores.

Pro-Jordan thugs messed up Kobe's fingers, knees, and Achilles.


Discounting opinion that goes against narrative as told by powerful people is easy. I don't really care who or how many roll eyes, or how long the insults to Justice in the form of NBA refs has been going on, I'm good with my opinion on the subject.

The irony of your opinion, of course, is that Kobe himself would probably disagree with you.

Quote:
"Nowadays, literally anybody can get out there and get to the basket because you can't touch anybody," he said. "Back then, guys put their hands on you, you had to have the skill to be able to go both ways, change directions and post up. You had to have midrange game because you didn't want to go all the way to the basket because you'd get knocked [flat]. Playing the game back then required much more skill."


http://www.latimes.com/sports/lakers/la-sp-lakers-fyi-20140121-story.html

I think your argument would be that the refs hold Kobe to the old-school standard and everyone else to a different, more finesse-y standard. If that's true, Kobe's response was to develop the kinds of skills to adjust to that contact, rather than complain. And if he ain't complaining, I ain't complaining.


He did work around that (bleep). There still shouldn't be a different standard for him than the rest.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:25 pm    Post subject: Re: How much better would Kobe look if the refs didn't abuse him?

activeverb wrote:
ROTL wrote:
And he was as protected as Jordan/Wade/Harden/Lebron? Not only is he not as protected as them but he is allowed to be blatantly fouled with no call. So it's a double killer to his numbers. If he got the ref treatment other stars get, I don't think there would be any doubt he was the GOAT. As it stands he's top 5 despite playing against the other team and the refs most of his career.


I think you insult Kobe by making woulda-coulda-shoulda statements on his behalf.


What?
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:26 pm    Post subject: Re: How much better would Kobe look if the refs didn't abuse him?

activeverb wrote:
ROTL wrote:
activeverb wrote:
ROTL wrote:
And he was as protected as Jordan/Wade/Harden/Lebron? Not only is he not as protected as them but he is allowed to be blatantly fouled with no call. So it's a double killer to his numbers. If he got the ref treatment other stars get, I don't think there would be any doubt he was the GOAT. As it stands he's top 5 despite playing against the other team and the refs most of his career.


I think you insult Kobe by making woulda-coulda-shoulda statements on his behalf.


Naw...it's a huge compliment. Despite being routinely screwed over by refs that parade other stars to the line, Kobe is a top 5 player of all time. Kobe has overcome corruption and a blatant agenda against him both by tr league and the media.


My eyes have officially glazed over. Have fun.


There are support groups you know....
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:35 pm    Post subject:

nevitt_smrek wrote:
Did the refs "abuse" him when Marion "fouled" him on that three?



Did they abuse him here?





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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 8:19 pm    Post subject:

They all attack the basket though and Kobe knows that if he attacks the basket he'll get calls to. Theres no excuse for the refs not calling fouls for Kobe
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 8:57 pm    Post subject:

24 wrote:
Jordan had a smaller toolkit than Kobe, just as Shaq had a smaller toolkit than a bunch of other elite all time bigs. Because both had such elite physical gifts that they developed around. Mj shot a higher percentage on less overall moves because he could.


what smaller toolkit? name the tools that Kobe has that MJ does not have.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 9:01 pm    Post subject:

KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
24 wrote:
Jordan had a smaller toolkit than Kobe, just as Shaq had a smaller toolkit than a bunch of other elite all time bigs. Because both had such elite physical gifts that they developed around and in MJ's case, faced far less athletic defenders and, unlike Kobe, had the refs in his pocket. Mj shot a higher percentage on less overall moves because he could.


Fixed it for Ya.


"far less athletic" is an opinion but there's also far less touch fouls back then then now. think about it. the three point shot was not a major part of the offense therefore the zone area was more congested than now. seems like a wash with "far less athletic" and more congested lane.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 9:10 pm    Post subject:

24 wrote:
It is actually a testament to Kobe that he developed all the other stuff to help close the gap, but the gap is there, and there's no purpose in dogging mj for not widening the net beyond what he needed, any more than there is for dogging Shaq for not developing an 18 foot jumper. Didn't need it, and you wouldn't want him doing that when he does other things so unstoppably.


There were portions of either player's careers where they were more dominant players than Kobe no matter what they had. There were portions where the prime version of Kobe was arguably more dominant than them. As far as Shaq goes, it's always difficult to rate centers with smalls, especially Shaq, who made other centers look small. Guys like Ewing, who were legitimately big on their own accord. There are some gms in 2000-01 where he was like the T-Rex in Jurassic Park bursting out of its pen. Shaq was dominant via his frame alone -- a factor beside his actual ability. The opposing team surrounding him trying to hack at him were insignificant. Kobe and Mike were much more athletic than other 2s, but it ain't the same with a center like Shaq compared to them. Shaq pulled a backboard off its moorings and collapsed another one and pulled a rim straight out of the glass in that clip with Ahmad. That was an older bolted-in style rim from the 70s in an old HS gym. Shaq pulled that one out straight from the front unlike guys like Darryl Dawkins who admitted those old rims were weak at the sides. Not only that, but he slammed hard to the floor and didn't get the breath knocked out of him. He was a physical freak. Magic, Chuck, Shaq.

I think Jordan worked inside of the very few limitations he had (and there weren't many) better than Kob, tbh. Mike didn't often veer into 3 pt range for some reason. Suggests at least that he wasn't comfortable out there. That kind of thing can be argued either in his favor or in Kobe's favor (because Kobe's range was longer). End of the day, this sh just culminates into a pissing contest among all of us very-opinionated people. No one "wins" their argument. It reminds me of the end of WarGames. The only way to win is by not playing the game.

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