Probably win another title if the old illegal defense rule was in place.
To Jordan's defense he played when you can hand check. Maybe he wins one or two more if they played by today's rules
The problem is that the teams were constructed within the rules that existed at the time, and the style of play was dictated at least in part by the rules that existed at the time. It's all up to your imagination. Would Kobe have won titles in '04 and '08 with the old rules? Would Jordan have won a couple more titles if the Pistons had to play under the new rules? For a lot of people, the answer will be dictated by what they want to be true. My own opinion is that that the shift from the illegal defense rule to the soft zone rule is overrated in terms of its significance. Teams used zone concepts all the time in the illegal defense era.
I have followed the majority of Kobe career start to finish I will just say he got superstar calls at times especially before Eagle Colorado after that night Kobe became the villain of NBA most of the media were against him during Shaq feud most took Shaq side a lot of Laker fans too and the critics and experts saying he will never win without Shaq. Kobe gets mugged hit hard with no calls I think part of the reason Kobe at times got unfair treatment from the refs was due to complaining and yelling at officials non stop during games that really never did him any favors.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 10:20 am Post subject:
Not much different. I really can't stand the absolutely blatant missed calls at the rim.
Those are the ones that bug me the most. The whole thing about Kobe's FTs being nearly equal to MJ is different too. Kobe has had MANY MANY games of 5 free throws or less, especially on the road. Spurs games against Bowen come to mind.
Then he goes to Utah, and it's counterbalanced with 16-21 FT games.
I wouldn't say Kobe got superstar calls, nowhere near the frequency of the modern NBA stars. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
I have followed the majority of Kobe career start to finish I will just say he got superstar calls at times especially before Eagle Colorado after that night Kobe became the villain of NBA most of the media were against him during Shaq feud most took Shaq side a lot of Laker fans too and the critics and experts saying he will never win without Shaq. Kobe gets mugged hit hard with no calls I think part of the reason Kobe at times got unfair treatment from the refs was due to complaining and yelling at officials non stop during games that really never did him any favors.
There's a subjective element to this that can never be proven or disproven with stats. I can use stats to show you that his FTr actually went up after Eagle, but that doesn't necessarily prove that there weren't a lot of no-calls. If you believe that Kobe was getting fouled every time up the court, then you would think that the FTr should have been higher. There were certainly times when Kobe didn't get a call, but was that more often than other comparable players? I didn't think so at the time, but that's just a subjective opinion. I don't consider guys like Wade, Harden, and Maggette to be comparable in this sense, because their whole game revolved around finding ways to get foul calls. But I understand -- I really do -- why the number of foul calls for those guys is infuriating to a lot of people.
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144472 Location: The Gold Coast
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:36 am Post subject:
I don't think he would look any better, the abuse scars seem to be well hidden and are not visible when you look at Kobe. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
I have followed the majority of Kobe career start to finish I will just say he got superstar calls at times especially before Eagle Colorado after that night Kobe became the villain of NBA most of the media were against him during Shaq feud most took Shaq side a lot of Laker fans too and the critics and experts saying he will never win without Shaq. Kobe gets mugged hit hard with no calls I think part of the reason Kobe at times got unfair treatment from the refs was due to complaining and yelling at officials non stop during games that really never did him any favors.
There's a subjective element to this that can never be proven or disproven with stats. I can use stats to show you that his FTr actually went up after Eagle, but that doesn't necessarily prove that there weren't a lot of no-calls. If you believe that Kobe was getting fouled every time up the court, then you would think that the FTr should have been higher. There were certainly times when Kobe didn't get a call, but was that more often than other comparable players? I didn't think so at the time, but that's just a subjective opinion. I don't consider guys like Wade, Harden, and Maggette to be comparable in this sense, because their whole game revolved around finding ways to get foul calls. But I understand -- I really do -- why the number of foul calls for those guys is infuriating to a lot of people.
Yes, at times Kobe got fouled hard with no call other times not. I think Kobe yelling at officials and possible cussing them out didn't help matters one bit. I don't believe he caught fouled every time up the court that's just silly believing that. I'm in the middle with this.
I don't think he would look any better, the abuse scars seem to be well hidden and are not visible when you look at Kobe.
Once every 83000 posts, like clockwork. _________________ “It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays
Kobe got plenty of calls when he was younger. His arm flailing crap usually earned him some undeserved calls, and Kobe was well and truly the Golden Boy before his rape case.
After the rape case and especially once he passed his prime the league pivoted to go full on Lebron all day every day and Kobe lost a good amount of his superstar shine/treatment.
Hell it could be worse, if he got Jeremy Lin treatment from the refs, at his old age and taking that sort of punishment (for no gain) he'd be out for the season already due to injury.
Heh Jeremy actually benefited from calls during his Linsanity hot streak, sadly now he's suffering some sort of twisted karmic backlash where he gets no benefit of the doubt even though he's a vet now. It's just sad at how the league can bend things to promote whatever narrative they want and people just eat it up.
Probably win another title if the old illegal defense rule was in place.
To Jordan's defense he played when you can hand check. Maybe he wins one or two more if they played by today's rules
Can't really think of anything that outweighs the fact that first half of a possession was forced single coverage.
Yep, the clear out. _________________ “It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays
Ask any vet who puts the Purple and Gold on, the foul calls dry up and playing defense like you did before is impossible. After the 80's the calls for the Lakers changed. In the 80's Magic would clearly hack a guard blowing by him and Rambis would raise his hand and take the foul. Chick would even comment on it occasionally.
That all stopped unto the 3peat years when Shaq could offensively murder any single defender, but get beat up like new bait in jail when double, triple and quadruple teamed. I was ashamed watching him get away with assault vs Mutumbo in the Finals.
Now Kobe never got the true superstar calls of the 80's or 90's, by did get some calls in his favor in big games. A lot of people rewrite history and forget that the league and writers hated him when he was a "cocky youngster that needed to be put his place", but the fans freaking loved him!!! Kobe was never, ever, ever deemed as the golden child by the Stern regime. It seems the only people it seemed saw him developing into the best player in the league were Kobe, Jerry West and Michael Jordan.
Comparing skill sets of Kobe vs Jordan, how anyone can pick Jordan amazes the **** out of me. I've said this before, but will say again Kobe isn't Jordan 2.0, he is the MJ/Pippen hybrid. Jordan's mind frame and work ethic and Pippen's skill set and versatility. Then he refined and enhanced both sets and went further. If people really want to know the downfall of watching Kobe take perimeter player domination to another level it was Jason Kidd. He mangled Kobe's finger on the shooting hand with a karate chop and Kobe adjusted, but it wasn't the same. That karate chop move was defenders go to against Kobe and it took it's toll eventually.
Either way, the calls vs Kobe were always slack versus others in my opinion. In my eyes he was fouled on almost every drive and shot for about 5 years 2006-2011. Guys tugging on him on drives, pushing him on jumpers, holding him off ball. Defenses loaded up on him with 2 clear defenders and 2 helpers as a game standard.
MJ executed better and made better decisions. Kobe did everything else better fo me. What do I know, I only watched the entirety of both careers. _________________ Stop crying and start doing.
Probably win another title if the old illegal defense rule was in place.
To Jordan's defense he played when you can hand check. Maybe he wins one or two more if they played by today's rules
Can't really think of anything that outweighs the fact that first half of a possession was forced single coverage.
Yep, the clear out.
Don't know why this is not blatantly apparent to some people. Totally launched the complexion of the game into a different era.
Link breaks it down:
Love love love this, These are my sentiments exactly!
Even though I do think there was an edict at least in the stern era to limit kobe due to sheer dominance, I think the youtube is correct: the zone was meant to reel in Shaq and Iverson, Shaq more so.
The fact that those guys had dominant numbers after zone amazes me. _________________ Creatures crawl in search of blood, To terrorize y'alls neighborhood.
He already averages more free throws per shot attempt then Jordan, despite being much more of a jump shooter and having taken over one thousand more three point shots. He gets his calls, just like every superstar has, and some calls are missed.
That argument only works if you assume that MJ and Kobe are equally as skilled. The fact is that Kobe has been a far more skilled player throughout his career and just to make games competitive, the league refs operated under a sort of Anti-Jordan Rules called the Kobe rules. For a few years, he was fouled on virtually every single possession but wasn't given the call because it would have been like watching Barry Bonds walked 250 times a season. The league changed the rules on what you could do to perimeter players and then allowed Kobe to be treated as if it were the mid 80's.
Kobe certainly should get more calls like Harden Wade but Kobe abuses the refs too. It seems though guys like leon wood has a lifelong vendetta against Kobe and Leon's been passing his message on to his Bros.
Don't need stats to prove what my eyes already tell me....Kobe doesn't get the same calls that other players get. And not only does he not get those weak calls, but he is allowed to be hand-checked, hacked, and bumped, and body-checked...in other words, blatantly fouled...with no call.
Yeah, you guys don't let facts get in the way of your argument. It's just funny how Kobe fans are the most thin skinned fans of any player. But stick to your crazy views. You are going to go insane since, very few people outside of Kobe Kool-Aid drinkers will agree with you.. And it will be even less if Kobe comes back next year to shoot hit 37%...
Yeah, you guys don't let facts get in the way of your argument. It's just funny how Kobe fans are the most thin skinned fans of any player. But stick to your crazy views. You are going to go insane since, very few people outside of Kobe Kool-Aid drinkers will agree with you.. And it will be even less if Kobe comes back next year to shoot hit 37%...
Ask any vet who puts the Purple and Gold on, the foul calls dry up and playing defense like you did before is impossible. After the 80's the calls for the Lakers changed. In the 80's Magic would clearly hack a guard blowing by him and Rambis would raise his hand and take the foul. Chick would even comment on it occasionally.
That all stopped unto the 3peat years when Shaq could offensively murder any single defender, but get beat up like new bait in jail when double, triple and quadruple teamed. I was ashamed watching him get away with assault vs Mutumbo in the Finals.
Now Kobe never got the true superstar calls of the 80's or 90's, by did get some calls in his favor in big games. A lot of people rewrite history and forget that the league and writers hated him when he was a "cocky youngster that needed to be put his place", but the fans freaking loved him!!! Kobe was never, ever, ever deemed as the golden child by the Stern regime. It seems the only people it seemed saw him developing into the best player in the league were Kobe, Jerry West and Michael Jordan.
Comparing skill sets of Kobe vs Jordan, how anyone can pick Jordan amazes the **** out of me. I've said this before, but will say again Kobe isn't Jordan 2.0, he is the MJ/Pippen hybrid. Jordan's mind frame and work ethic and Pippen's skill set and versatility. Then he refined and enhanced both sets and went further. If people really want to know the downfall of watching Kobe take perimeter player domination to another level it was Jason Kidd. He mangled Kobe's finger on the shooting hand with a karate chop and Kobe adjusted, but it wasn't the same. That karate chop move was defenders go to against Kobe and it took it's toll eventually.
Either way, the calls vs Kobe were always slack versus others in my opinion. In my eyes he was fouled on almost every drive and shot for about 5 years 2006-2011. Guys tugging on him on drives, pushing him on jumpers, holding him off ball. Defenses loaded up on him with 2 clear defenders and 2 helpers as a game standard.
MJ executed better and made better decisions. Kobe did everything else better fo me. What do I know, I only watched the entirety of both careers.
Addicus...bravo.
This is one of the best, probably the best post I think I have ever read here. This is the truth and nothing but the truth. Every little detail and analogy is perfect.
I have followed the majority of Kobe career start to finish I will just say he got superstar calls at times especially before Eagle Colorado after that night Kobe became the villain of NBA most of the media were against him during Shaq feud most took Shaq side a lot of Laker fans too and the critics and experts saying he will never win without Shaq. Kobe gets mugged hit hard with no calls I think part of the reason Kobe at times got unfair treatment from the refs was due to complaining and yelling at officials non stop during games that really never did him any favors.
Shaq had a more likeable/media friendly personality so I understand why the media went that direction. Kobe got lots of silly calls his way throughout his career. I remember the series vs utah 2008-2009 he lived at the line or soo it seemed.
I have followed the majority of Kobe career start to finish I will just say he got superstar calls at times especially before Eagle Colorado after that night Kobe became the villain of NBA most of the media were against him during Shaq feud most took Shaq side a lot of Laker fans too and the critics and experts saying he will never win without Shaq. Kobe gets mugged hit hard with no calls I think part of the reason Kobe at times got unfair treatment from the refs was due to complaining and yelling at officials non stop during games that really never did him any favors.
There's a subjective element to this that can never be proven or disproven with stats. I can use stats to show you that his FTr actually went up after Eagle, but that doesn't necessarily prove that there weren't a lot of no-calls. If you believe that Kobe was getting fouled every time up the court, then you would think that the FTr should have been higher. There were certainly times when Kobe didn't get a call, but was that more often than other comparable players? I didn't think so at the time, but that's just a subjective opinion. I don't consider guys like Wade, Harden, and Maggette to be comparable in this sense, because their whole game revolved around finding ways to get foul calls. But I understand -- I really do -- why the number of foul calls for those guys is infuriating to a lot of people.
Some of the missed calls were crucial to not only regular games but also playoff games. The latter would have meant costly cost to a ring. _________________ Kobe's Top 5 Dunks, 81 points, MJ last gm @Staples
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