D'Angelo Russell
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GoldenThroat
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 10:35 am    Post subject:

Fan0Bynum17 wrote:
The "how" matters when you're trying to predict how someone will do against different/higher competition.


How?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 10:43 am    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
Fan0Bynum17 wrote:
The "how" matters when you're trying to predict how someone will do against different/higher competition.


How?


Because there's different rules, roles, style, and competition at the NBA level? I mean, maybe you personally don't accept this, but it is generally accepted that if you throw in these differing factors, players may not replicate their performance since they may not be able to get away with things they could at the other level.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 10:57 am    Post subject:

Fan0Bynum17 wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Fan0Bynum17 wrote:
The "how" matters when you're trying to predict how someone will do against different/higher competition.


How?


Because there's different rules, roles, style, and competition at the NBA level? I mean, maybe you personally don't accept this, but it is generally accepted that if you throw in these differing factors, players may not replicate their performance since they may not be able to get away with things they could at the other level.


Sure, but don't you need to demonstrate how a particular "how" is or isn't different on the next level? What are the different rules that will accentuate Russell's average dribbling ability as opposed to his superb decision making? What are these roles? Styles?

My point is that there are a lot of extremely hollow terms that are thrown around when scouting players. D'Angelo Russell doesn't struggle with ball protection. Ball protection is pretty easy to measure. The only thing that the ball needs to be protected from is the other team.

Rules: Nothing different about NBA rules that I can think of that would impact ball protection.

Role: Isn't think a measure of how team decides to use him, rather than his actual skill set? Is it a measure of his game, or instead a measure of some unnamed team?

Style: Don't even know what this means, as it applies to scouting a player.

Competition: He plays in a major conference, and his competition is about as high as it can be pre-NBA. We're not talking about Steph Curry at Davidson or Damian Lillard at Weber State.
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Fan0Bynum17
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:45 am    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:


Sure, but don't you need to demonstrate how a particular "how" is or isn't different on the next level?


It certainly helps, sure.

Quote:
What are the different rules that will accentuate Russell's average dribbling ability as opposed to his superb decision making? What are these roles? Styles?


I was responding to the general principle that the how doesn't matter, not necessarily piggybacking onto Mike's specific claim in regards to Russell.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 3:25 pm    Post subject:

He'd make an excellent pick!

Okafor/Towns/Muinday/Johnson/Russell...Either of those 5 would be a great prize
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 6:16 pm    Post subject:

This is how the, "how", matters.

If he's going to be a high-risk ball-handler in backcourt and halfcourt situations, how exactly does it make it easier for him at the NBA level?

He'll face defenders with more size, quickness, length, and better defensive ability.

Jason Kidd was a high turnover point guard out of Cal. But, he was able to protect the basketball full-court. The risk was in the passes that he made, not the preventable turnovers.

It's not like all of those great point-guard-like passes at the NCAA level are all going to be legit at the NBA level too.




To me, this is no different from Marcus Smart getting contact at the rim. How does he do it? Forces his body into the defense, rather than use more dynamic ball-handling to get a better look at the rim.

It's the difference between getting better looks at the basket instead of using his frame to absorb contact at the rim.

This is how smaller PGs like Chris Paul are able to be successful in the league for an extended period of time, even if he is slower from his Hornet days.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 8:29 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
This is how the, "how", matters.

If he's going to be a high-risk ball-handler in backcourt and halfcourt situations, how exactly does it make it easier for him at the NBA level?

He'll face defenders with more size, quickness, length, and better defensive ability.

Jason Kidd was a high turnover point guard out of Cal. But, he was able to protect the basketball full-court. The risk was in the passes that he made, not the preventable turnovers.

It's not like all of those great point-guard-like passes at the NCAA level are all going to be legit at the NBA level too.




To me, this is no different from Marcus Smart getting contact at the rim. How does he do it? Forces his body into the defense, rather than use more dynamic ball-handling to get a better look at the rim.

It's the difference between getting better looks at the basket instead of using his frame to absorb contact at the rim.

This is how smaller PGs like Chris Paul are able to be successful in the league for an extended period of time, even if he is slower from his Hornet days.

This is exactly the same problem that russell has, his turnovers are not a result of him wilting under relentless ball pressure. Its almost always due to overzealous attempts at playmaking, because he is essentially the only individual offensive threat/playmaker on Ohio State's roster. It would be difficult for him to average nearly 20 and 5 with his usage rate if he was a shaky ball handler. In fact, tyus jones, who you appear to think very highly of as a solid pg prospect, has a higher to% than russell with nearly only half the usage rate and much better teammates sharing the floor with him. Sure russell gets a little loose with the handle, but from what I've seen its because he is almost a little too calm/overconfident with the ball in his hands and is looking behind the defender in order to read the defense, rather than being fully engaged with the man in front of him, and even when the dribble is disrupted it usually does not result in a turnover. The guy reads the game beautifully, makes the proper play almost all of the time, and plays at a consistent and steady pace that is not dictated by what the defense is doing(i.e. not speeding up/panicking due to ball pressure). In my opinion, he will be just fine as the primary ball handler on the NBA level, where yes the competition level will increase defensively, but he will have considerably better teammates as well
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 8:42 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Sure russell gets a little loose with the handle, but from what I've seen its because he is almost a little too calm/overconfident with the ball in his hands and is looking behind the defender in order to read the defense,


I'd see that as a problem.

Jones' turnovers are NOT a result of this problem.

The thing is, you cannot consider having better teammates and advantage, when the ball-handler is loose in one-on-one situations handling his own defender.

You CAN consider it when it comes to turnovers resulting from passes.

This isn't the case.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 9:08 pm    Post subject:

I haven't seen enough of Russell being pressured, but from what I've seen - his handle is where it's supposed to be for a Freshman, ball dominant guard. When he's being defended normally he looks impressively comfortable, gets off moves no problem, keeps his dribble alive no problem. I'd bet 85% of the time he looks really,really good with the ball. That's fine for a freshman, the 15% will improve just off comfort - it's common for freshman PGs to struggle vs. pressure.
Although, if Russell continues to be a pull up 3point threat, defenders pressure that type of player. Curry, Harden, they get pressured more than anybody in the league. The rest of the league really doesn't play pressure D on PGs in between the 3pt line and halfcourt, unless it's Beverly/defensive PG, or a bench player trying to earn minutes, or if the ball handler is notoriously shaky like Steve Blake.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 9:31 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:
Sure russell gets a little loose with the handle, but from what I've seen its because he is almost a little too calm/overconfident with the ball in his hands and is looking behind the defender in order to read the defense,


I'd see that as a problem.

Jones' turnovers are NOT a result of this problem.

The thing is, you cannot consider having better teammates and advantage, when the ball-handler is loose in one-on-one situations handling his own defender.

You CAN consider it when it comes to turnovers resulting from passes.

This isn't the case.

That was my point in saying his turnovers are from overzealous playmaking. I didnt say the turnovers themselves were a result of the loose ball handling. He's not losing the ball when defenders trap him on the pick and roll or picking it up and stalling the possession. His turnovers come when he tries to force plays, usually throwing passes that his teammates aren't ready for, such as throwing anticipation passes to a spot that his teammates fail to recognize/get to in time because he is the only one of the floor who can see the play developing. Some turnovers come from the defense collapsing on his drives because they are helping off of his teammates because they aren't a threat. He's not getting stripped on one-on-one possessions and giving up layups on the other end, those aren't the variety of turnovers he gets, you are painting him as a "high risk ball handler" and questioning his pg skills, which he has in spades. He is a young player, who has a lapse or two in focus, while playing minutes going into the mid thirties as a freshman. 30 of those minutes are solid and the remaining 2-5 can be mixed with a little showmanship/non chalant attitude that leads to a turnover, his turnover "problem" can be attributed more to focus as opposed to skill set, which is something he can easily improve upon
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:02 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
This is how the, "how", matters.

If he's going to be a high-risk ball-handler in backcourt and halfcourt situations, how exactly does it make it easier for him at the NBA level? He'll face defenders with more size, quickness, length, and better defensive ability. Jason Kidd was a high turnover point guard out of Cal. But, he was able to protect the basketball full-court. The risk was in the passes that he made, not the preventable turnovers. It's not like all of those great point-guard-like passes at the NCAA level are all going to be legit at the NBA level too. To me, this is no different from Marcus Smart getting contact at the rim. How does he do it? Forces his body into the defense, rather than use more dynamic ball-handling to get a better look at the rim. It's the difference between getting better looks at the basket instead of using his frame to absorb contact at the rim. This is how smaller PGs like Chris Paul are able to be successful in the league for an extended period of time, even if he is slower from his Hornet days.


But there's nothing that demonstrates that he's a "high risk" ball-handler in the first place. Jason Kidd was a high turnover point guard out of Cal, who became a high turnover point guard in the NBA. It's an extremely translatable statistic. Curry, Lillard, CP3, Irving, Harden, etc. All of them maintained similar turnover rates when they got to the NBA and faced bigger/faster/stronger. Protecting the ball full court? How often does an NBA players really have to protect the ball full court? And if he struggles so much with it, why doesn't he turn the ball over more?

How Marcus Smart gets to the rim has nothing to do with this topic.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:50 am    Post subject:

draft both russell and jones imo, simplez
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:37 am    Post subject:

Fan0Bynum17 wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Fan0Bynum17 wrote:
The "how" matters when you're trying to predict how someone will do against different/higher competition.


How?


Because there's different rules, roles, style, and competition at the NBA level? I mean, maybe you personally don't accept this, but it is generally accepted that if you throw in these differing factors, players may not replicate their performance since they may not be able to get away with things they could at the other level.


That is why NBA teams work players out and do not rely on what they did in college.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:55 pm    Post subject:

I think Russell will fit great next to Clarkson. They can alternate bringing the ball up court and switch everything defensively depending on matchup. If Clarkson improves even a little I wouldn't Mind him starting next to Russell next season. Like another poster Said all top 5 picks will be good prospects so I'm happy with any of them but prefer Russell.

Russell
Clarkson
Randle

Those are 3 guys I wouldn't mind watching develop as lakers.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 3:54 pm    Post subject:

PICKnPOP wrote:
I think Russell will fit great next to Clarkson. They can alternate bringing the ball up court and switch everything defensively depending on matchup. If Clarkson improves even a little I wouldn't Mind him starting next to Russell next season. Like another poster Said all top 5 picks will be good prospects so I'm happy with any of them but prefer Russell.

Russell
Clarkson
Randle

Those are 3 guys I wouldn't mind watching develop as lakers.


If that is the core 3 we are building around we'll need some defensive studs at the 3 and 5 positions.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:19 pm    Post subject:

Clarkson isn't a core guy. But I'd be thrilled with Russell & Randle.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:22 pm    Post subject:

I've been watching vids of Russell & Ben Simmons vs Towns in high school. Good stuff.

If we can get a top 3 pick we are golden. I'd be enamored with Russell/Towns or Okafor
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:49 pm    Post subject:

22 wrote:
I've been watching vids of Russell & Ben Simmons vs Towns in high school. Good stuff.

If we can get a top 3 pick we are golden. I'd be enamored with Russell/Towns or Okafor


That was a great game. That's when I first saw Russell. I was watching the game to check out towns and Simmons and Russell kept killing in transition. I had to find out who he was.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:52 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
Clarkson isn't a core guy. But I'd be thrilled with Russell & Randle.


Let's see how he does the for the remainder of the season. He seems capable of scoring 15 ppg without anyone creating easy opportunities for him and he's a good spot up shooter. He may thrive with a player who can demand a double team and make a living like fisher.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:58 pm    Post subject:

44TheLogo wrote:
PICKnPOP wrote:
I think Russell will fit great next to Clarkson. They can alternate bringing the ball up court and switch everything defensively depending on matchup. If Clarkson improves even a little I wouldn't Mind him starting next to Russell next season. Like another poster Said all top 5 picks will be good prospects so I'm happy with any of them but prefer Russell.

Russell
Clarkson
Randle

Those are 3 guys I wouldn't mind watching develop as lakers.


If that is the core 3 we are building around we'll need some defensive studs at the 3 and 5 positions.

I agree and we may be able to find one in this draft with houstons pick. Rondae Hollis-Jefferson and Justin Anderson may be available with the Houston pick. Anderson should be a great 3 and d player in the NBA and Jefferson just needs to work on his 3 ball.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 5:08 pm    Post subject:

PICKnPOP wrote:
22 wrote:
I've been watching vids of Russell & Ben Simmons vs Towns in high school. Good stuff.

If we can get a top 3 pick we are golden. I'd be enamored with Russell/Towns or Okafor


That was a great game. That's when I first saw Russell. I was watching the game to check out towns and Simmons and Russell kept killing in transition. I had to find out who he was.


Isn't it fun seeing Russell in purple and gold?
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 5:53 pm    Post subject:

22 wrote:
PICKnPOP wrote:
22 wrote:
I've been watching vids of Russell & Ben Simmons vs Towns in high school. Good stuff.

If we can get a top 3 pick we are golden. I'd be enamored with Russell/Towns or Okafor


That was a great game. That's when I first saw Russell. I was watching the game to check out towns and Simmons and Russell kept killing in transition. I had to find out who he was.


Isn't it fun seeing Russell in purple and gold?



Hopefully we can get used to it! 😄
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:48 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
This is how the, "how", matters.

If he's going to be a high-risk ball-handler in backcourt and halfcourt situations, how exactly does it make it easier for him at the NBA level? He'll face defenders with more size, quickness, length, and better defensive ability. Jason Kidd was a high turnover point guard out of Cal. But, he was able to protect the basketball full-court. The risk was in the passes that he made, not the preventable turnovers. It's not like all of those great point-guard-like passes at the NCAA level are all going to be legit at the NBA level too. To me, this is no different from Marcus Smart getting contact at the rim. How does he do it? Forces his body into the defense, rather than use more dynamic ball-handling to get a better look at the rim. It's the difference between getting better looks at the basket instead of using his frame to absorb contact at the rim. This is how smaller PGs like Chris Paul are able to be successful in the league for an extended period of time, even if he is slower from his Hornet days.


But there's nothing that demonstrates that he's a "high risk" ball-handler in the first place. Jason Kidd was a high turnover point guard out of Cal, who became a high turnover point guard in the NBA. It's an extremely translatable statistic. Curry, Lillard, CP3, Irving, Harden, etc. All of them maintained similar turnover rates when they got to the NBA and faced bigger/faster/stronger. Protecting the ball full court? How often does an NBA players really have to protect the ball full court? And if he struggles so much with it, why doesn't he turn the ball over more?

How Marcus Smart gets to the rim has nothing to do with this topic.


How Marcus Smart gets to the rim is relevant IMHO. It's the how he plays his offense compared to Payton that makes Payton the more dynamic offensive PG.

That "how" matters to me.

Quote:
Protecting the ball full court? How often does an NBA players really have to protect the ball full court? And if he struggles so much with it, why doesn't he turn the ball over more?


A player doesn't have to do it often, but when it's crunch time, do you really want to be worrying about a guy who is loose with his handle?

So, you're asking me if I want my future starting PG to be able to handle full court pressure?

You. Bet.

It's not that he turns the ball over more. Half the time he recovers by diving on the ball.

Sure, keep the possession, ruin the offensive flow. No turnover charged.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:50 pm    Post subject:

PICKnPOP wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Clarkson isn't a core guy. But I'd be thrilled with Russell & Randle.


Let's see how he does the for the remainder of the season. He seems capable of scoring 15 ppg without anyone creating easy opportunities for him and he's a good spot up shooter. He may thrive with a player who can demand a double team and make a living like fisher.


Agreed.

I think he can become a core guy. He doesn't have the best vision on the floor, but he's unselfish.

More importantly, he works on both ends of the floor during the offseason. The isolation coaching he got the past summer was tremendous. He just needs to slowly get comfortable with that.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:36 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
PICKnPOP wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Clarkson isn't a core guy. But I'd be thrilled with Russell & Randle.


Let's see how he does the for the remainder of the season. He seems capable of scoring 15 ppg without anyone creating easy opportunities for him and he's a good spot up shooter. He may thrive with a player who can demand a double team and make a living like fisher.


Agreed.

I think he can become a core guy. He doesn't have the best vision on the floor, but he's unselfish.

More importantly, he works on both ends of the floor during the offseason. The isolation coaching he got the past summer was tremendous. He just needs to slowly get comfortable with that.


I have a lot of faith in him because he's had a chip on his shoulder since draft night. He's motivated to make everyone who passed on him in the first round regret it. Im very interested to see how much he improves this offseason.
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