Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:20 pm Post subject:
Inverse wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Inverse wrote:
Karmaloop wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Who is the better prospect?
DeAngelo Russell? Or Kris Dunn? Why?
I think this subject can be a lot more controversial than most think.
It really isn't. There's a reason why one of them is considered a consensus top 5 pick, and the other isn't.
Exposure
And injury. That would be my concern as well with Dunn. If he had stayed healthy he would be playing in the NBA now.
They were freak injuries. Could've happened to anyone. And he's not a damn baseball player, there are worse things to injure in basketball than your shoulder. The chance of re-injury is much lower, than say, a knee or lower back
I just think that, Smart was almost consensus Top 5 all last year... and Elfrid Payton snuck up very late.
I find it a similar situation of sorts, except Dunn can hit from mid-range easily. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
I think this subject can be a lot more controversial than most think.
It really isn't. There's a reason why one of them is considered a consensus top 5 pick, and the other isn't.
Exposure
And injury. That would be my concern as well with Dunn. If he had stayed healthy he would be playing in the NBA now.
They were freak injuries. Could've happened to anyone. And he's not a damn baseball player, there are worse things to injure in basketball than your shoulder. The chance of re-injury is much lower, than say, a knee or lower back
I just think that, Smart was almost consensus Top 5 all last year... and Elfrid Payton snuck up very late.
I find it a similar situation of sorts, except Dunn can hit from mid-range easily.
You don't have to convince me Mike. I think when its all said and done people will hit themselves in the head for sleeping on him. Talk about a solid prospect. I've said what I've had to about Dunn though. A Russell/Dunn or Towns/Dunn draft and I'll be the happiest person on the planet.
I think this subject can be a lot more controversial than most think.
It really isn't. There's a reason why one of them is considered a consensus top 5 pick, and the other isn't.
Exposure
Agreed. GMs and Scouts miss all the time. Russell has shown PG court vision and awareness, but what are we afraid of?
Lack of quickness. Body.
Who has it? Dunn.
What about Dunn's passing? 50% Assist rate.
What are we afraid of with Dunn? 3pt. range.
You can add 3pt. range. You can't add quickness/size as easily.
I don't think shooting is that easy to add and it's a bit hand wavy to say that quickness and size aren't as easy to add as shooting range. For a 19 year old to bulk up would not be that difficult, and athleticism can be improved rapidly as well.
Agreed. GMs and Scouts miss all the time. Russell has shown PG court vision and awareness, but what are we afraid of?
Lack of quickness. Body.
Who has it? Dunn.
What about Dunn's passing? 50% Assist rate.
What are we afraid of with Dunn? 3pt. range.
You can add 3pt. range. You can't add quickness/size as easily.
You really think GMs and scouts aren't aware of who Dunn is? That's why they get paid the big bucks. For as quick as Dunn is, he struggles to finish at the rim. He shot only 45% inside the paint, and he doesn't provide a ton of 3 point shooting. Quickness is nice and all, but if you can't finish it doesn't really help. I'll take the guy with the silky smooth game over the guy who can run fast.
I'm convinced everyone is looking for the next Damian Lilliard and their going to burned more often than not. Don't get me wrong, Dunn is a very good prospect but Russell is younger, doesn't come with significant medical red flags, and doesn't turn over the ball at an alarming rate. Not to mention, Dunn is 21 and Russell is 19.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:51 pm Post subject:
44TheLogo wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Inverse wrote:
Karmaloop wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Who is the better prospect?
DeAngelo Russell? Or Kris Dunn? Why?
I think this subject can be a lot more controversial than most think.
It really isn't. There's a reason why one of them is considered a consensus top 5 pick, and the other isn't.
Exposure
Agreed. GMs and Scouts miss all the time. Russell has shown PG court vision and awareness, but what are we afraid of?
Lack of quickness. Body.
Who has it? Dunn.
What about Dunn's passing? 50% Assist rate.
What are we afraid of with Dunn? 3pt. range.
You can add 3pt. range. You can't add quickness/size as easily.
I don't think shooting is that easy to add and it's a bit hand wavy to say that quickness and size aren't as easy to add as shooting range. For a 19 year old to bulk up would not be that difficult, and athleticism can be improved rapidly as well.
I do like Dunn though.
Totally disagree.
It's a lot easier to make someone a 40% shooter behind the arc, than to gain flat out speed/quickness/add 4" of vert. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:55 pm Post subject:
Karmaloop wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Agreed. GMs and Scouts miss all the time. Russell has shown PG court vision and awareness, but what are we afraid of?
Lack of quickness. Body.
Who has it? Dunn.
What about Dunn's passing? 50% Assist rate.
What are we afraid of with Dunn? 3pt. range.
You can add 3pt. range. You can't add quickness/size as easily.
You really think GMs and scouts aren't aware of who Dunn is? That's why they get paid the big bucks. For as quick as Dunn is, he struggles to finish at the rim. He shot only 45% inside the paint, and he doesn't provide a ton of 3 point shooting. Quickness is nice and all, but if you can't finish it doesn't really help. I'll take the guy with the silky smooth game over the guy who can run fast.
I think GMs and Scouts are aware of who Dunn is but they all have different opinions.
That's why the lottery of the draft is never truly predictable. Everyone has different points of emphasis for what they like in a player. There were scouts saying that Tyler Ennis was the best PG last year. Do you really agree with that?
As for 45% shooting/3pt. shooting, he'll get spacing at the NBA level and range can be added. He has a legit shot form.
Quote:
I'm convinced everyone is looking for the next Damian Lilliard and their going to burned more often than not. Don't get me wrong, Dunn is a very good prospect but Russell is younger, doesn't come with significant medical red flags, and doesn't turn over the ball at an alarming rate. Not to mention, Dunn is 21 and Russell is 19.
Do you even know why Lillard wasn't ranked so high as an NBA prospect?
1. "Limited competition from small school"
2. "Sub-average finishing ability."
Yet, he was quick, explosive, shifty, and had a money jumpshot.
As for being Younger, what's the point of being younger? Fulfilling athletic upside with skill.
How much athletic upside do you think Russell has? _________________ Resident Car Nut.
Btw I've been on record saying that teams including the lakers would regret passing up on elfrid Payton and so far I'm right. Just looking at his college highlights showed me he did everything for the betterment of the team. His IQ is off the charts.
I think this subject can be a lot more controversial than most think.
It really isn't. There's a reason why one of them is considered a consensus top 5 pick, and the other isn't.
Exposure
Agreed. GMs and Scouts miss all the time. Russell has shown PG court vision and awareness, but what are we afraid of?
Lack of quickness. Body.
Who has it? Dunn.
What about Dunn's passing? 50% Assist rate.
What are we afraid of with Dunn? 3pt. range.
You can add 3pt. range. You can't add quickness/size as easily.
I don't think shooting is that easy to add and it's a bit hand wavy to say that quickness and size aren't as easy to add as shooting range. For a 19 year old to bulk up would not be that difficult, and athleticism can be improved rapidly as well.
I do like Dunn though.
Totally disagree.
It's a lot easier to make someone a 40% shooter behind the arc, than to gain flat out speed/quickness/add 4" of vert.
It really depends on the base from which your building, and I don't think blanket statements like that can be made when it comes to basketball player development. Improvement in any facet of the game depends on how much work has been done in that area and how hard a worker the person is. If someone's never lifted weights diligently but has only worked on their basketball skills, then adding athleticism will be extraordinarily easy. If someone's never worked on their basketball skills but has only worked out in the weight room then it's harder to add basketball skills from scratch than it is to build muscle.
I think Russell's athleticism can become a closer approximation of Dunn than Dunn's shooting can approach Russell's. Keeping in mind Dunn is 2 years older than Russell as well.
I'm really just praying for a Okafor/Randle/Clarkson future _________________ "He's a Zen master, so he can speak to you, and he doesn't need a microphone; you can hear him in your head, 'Ron, don't shoot, don't shoot.' Whatever, pow, three. I love the Zen, though."
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:01 pm Post subject:
44TheLogo wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
44TheLogo wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Inverse wrote:
Karmaloop wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Who is the better prospect?
DeAngelo Russell? Or Kris Dunn? Why?
I think this subject can be a lot more controversial than most think.
It really isn't. There's a reason why one of them is considered a consensus top 5 pick, and the other isn't.
Exposure
Agreed. GMs and Scouts miss all the time. Russell has shown PG court vision and awareness, but what are we afraid of?
Lack of quickness. Body.
Who has it? Dunn.
What about Dunn's passing? 50% Assist rate.
What are we afraid of with Dunn? 3pt. range.
You can add 3pt. range. You can't add quickness/size as easily.
I don't think shooting is that easy to add and it's a bit hand wavy to say that quickness and size aren't as easy to add as shooting range. For a 19 year old to bulk up would not be that difficult, and athleticism can be improved rapidly as well.
I do like Dunn though.
Totally disagree.
It's a lot easier to make someone a 40% shooter behind the arc, than to gain flat out speed/quickness/add 4" of vert.
It really depends on the base from which your building, and I don't think blanket statements like that can be made when it comes to basketball player development. Improvement in any facet of the game depends on how much work has been done in that area and how hard a worker the person is. If someone's never lifted weights diligently but has only worked on their basketball skills, then adding athleticism will be extraordinarily easy. If someone's never worked on their basketball skills but has only worked out in the weight room then it's harder to add basketball skills from scratch than it is to build muscle.
I think Russell's athleticism can become a closer approximation of Dunn than Dunn's shooting can approach Russell's. Keeping in mind Dunn is 2 years older than Russell as well.
The age thing isn't an issue for me. Just because Lillard came out a junior doesn't mean he isn't a great prospect.
I disagree that Russell can be the athlete as Dunn as opposed to Dunn becoming a 40% shooter.
You can make Derek Fisher a 40% 3pt. shooter.
You can't make him handle like Steve Nash or quick like Derrick Rose.
That is my point. Certain skills are A LOT easier to acquire at the NBA level, and physical skills are not that easy. Players that try out of their mind to gain athleticism, IMHO, become more injury prone. See Andrew Bynum in terms of explosiveness, or Greg Oden in terms of strength. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
I think this subject can be a lot more controversial than most think.
It really isn't. There's a reason why one of them is considered a consensus top 5 pick, and the other isn't.
Exposure
Agreed. GMs and Scouts miss all the time. Russell has shown PG court vision and awareness, but what are we afraid of?
Lack of quickness. Body.
Who has it? Dunn.
What about Dunn's passing? 50% Assist rate.
What are we afraid of with Dunn? 3pt. range.
You can add 3pt. range. You can't add quickness/size as easily.
I don't think shooting is that easy to add and it's a bit hand wavy to say that quickness and size aren't as easy to add as shooting range. For a 19 year old to bulk up would not be that difficult, and athleticism can be improved rapidly as well.
I do like Dunn though.
Totally disagree.
It's a lot easier to make someone a 40% shooter behind the arc, than to gain flat out speed/quickness/add 4" of vert.
I think GMs and Scouts are aware of who Dunn is but they all have different opinions.
That's why the lottery of the draft is never truly predictable. Everyone has different points of emphasis for what they like in a player. There were scouts saying that Tyler Ennis was the best PG last year. Do you really agree with that?
As for 45% shooting/3pt. shooting, he'll get spacing at the NBA level and range can be added. He has a legit shot form.
Legit shot and he doesn't even shoot particularly well. You act like shooting will come naturally, but so quick to dismiss what a year in a S&C room will do for Russell. He's 19 years old, and he's putting up big numbers in a good conference. Unfortunately, he's stuck on a terrible team but that's a discussion for another day. And no, I don't think that there is only one way to evaluate prospects; however, you generally tend to see a consensus form. There's a reason why most think the top 3 bigs in the draft are in some variation Towns, Okafor, and WCS. Sure, you might find a scout or two that think a guy like Turner or Kaminsky belong in the discussion, but for the most part those are few and far between. That's not the same with Dunn. For the most part, he's most people's third or fourth ranked guard at best. Personally, he's my #2 ranked PG, #4 ranked guard (behind Russell, Mudiay, and Mario). Also, stop ignoring the significant red flag regarding his shoulders. We flag big man with feet, and back injuries but you'll ignore guard with bad shoulders.
Mike@LG wrote:
Do you even know why Lillard wasn't ranked so high as an NBA prospect?
1. "Limited competition from small school"
2. "Sub-average finishing ability."
Yet, he was quick, explosive, shifty, and had a money jumpshot.
As for being Younger, what's the point of being younger? Fulfilling athletic upside with skill.
How much athletic upside do you think Russell has?
And yet Lilliard went 6th overall. Clearly his "lack of exposure" hurt his draft stock. :roll:
As for what Russell will become, I think he's Harden. Obviously, Harden had about 40 pounds on him coming out of college and he's not going to be a player who jumps out of the gym but because he's not a speed demon doesn't mean he isn't athletic.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:04 pm Post subject:
Inverse wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
44TheLogo wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Inverse wrote:
Karmaloop wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Who is the better prospect?
DeAngelo Russell? Or Kris Dunn? Why?
I think this subject can be a lot more controversial than most think.
It really isn't. There's a reason why one of them is considered a consensus top 5 pick, and the other isn't.
Exposure
Agreed. GMs and Scouts miss all the time. Russell has shown PG court vision and awareness, but what are we afraid of?
Lack of quickness. Body.
Who has it? Dunn.
What about Dunn's passing? 50% Assist rate.
What are we afraid of with Dunn? 3pt. range.
You can add 3pt. range. You can't add quickness/size as easily.
I don't think shooting is that easy to add and it's a bit hand wavy to say that quickness and size aren't as easy to add as shooting range. For a 19 year old to bulk up would not be that difficult, and athleticism can be improved rapidly as well.
I do like Dunn though.
Totally disagree.
It's a lot easier to make someone a 40% shooter behind the arc, than to gain flat out speed/quickness/add 4" of vert.
See Trevor Ariza
See Danny Green _________________ Resident Car Nut.
I think this subject can be a lot more controversial than most think.
It really isn't. There's a reason why one of them is considered a consensus top 5 pick, and the other isn't.
Exposure
Agreed. GMs and Scouts miss all the time. Russell has shown PG court vision and awareness, but what are we afraid of?
Lack of quickness. Body.
Who has it? Dunn.
What about Dunn's passing? 50% Assist rate.
What are we afraid of with Dunn? 3pt. range.
You can add 3pt. range. You can't add quickness/size as easily.
I don't think shooting is that easy to add and it's a bit hand wavy to say that quickness and size aren't as easy to add as shooting range. For a 19 year old to bulk up would not be that difficult, and athleticism can be improved rapidly as well.
I do like Dunn though.
Totally disagree.
It's a lot easier to make someone a 40% shooter behind the arc, than to gain flat out speed/quickness/add 4" of vert.
See Trevor Ariza
See Danny Green
See Blake Griffin...the list goes on
the shooting argument for Dunn is so weak, especially since the mechanics are there unlike Marcus Smart
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:13 pm Post subject:
Quote:
Legit shot and he doesn't even shoot particularly well. You act like shooting will come naturally, but so quick to dismiss what a year in a S&C room will do for Russell. He's 19 years old, and he's putting up big numbers in a good conference. Unfortunately, he's stuck on a terrible team but that's a discussion for another day.
For guys with a solid shot form? Yes, I expect natural development, especially at the guard position. Every guard that enters the league gets better from the perimeter out of repetition alone.
Btw, Dunn shoots 3% better in 2pt range than Russell.
Quote:
And no, I don't think that there is only one way to evaluate prospects; however, you generally tend to see a consensus form. There's a reason why most think the top 3 bigs in the draft are in some variation Towns, Okafor, and WCS. Sure, you might find a scout or two that think a guy like Turner or Kaminsky belong in the discussion, but for the most part those are few and far between. That's not the same with Dunn. For the most part, he's most people's third or fourth ranked guard at best. Personally, he's my #2 ranked PG, #4 ranked guard (behind Russell, Mudiay, and Mario). Also, stop ignoring the significant red flag regarding his shoulders. We flag big man with feet, and back injuries but you'll ignore guard with bad shoulders.
I tend to see a consensus form? Totally disagree again. Guys like Dunn, Levert, Jerian Grant, and other players... I've liked months ago. What happened? They shot up 20 spots up in the mock draft.
I heavily disagree about what other's opinions are in regards to their idea of 3rd or 4th best ranked guard. Lots of times, those are the same guys drafting Hasheem Thabeet at #2 or our own James Worthy/Byron Scott wanting Aaron Gordon in the draft last year.
I just look for very specific things I see on the floor and I see more of it out of Dunn than Russell when it comes to quickness, ball-skills, shiftiness; rather than jumpshot and elite court vision and awareness.
Yet, Dunn has a 50% assist percentage. I can't exactly faulty him on that court vision/awareness either.
As for injuries, I don't think about it until it's an issue. The Lakers drafted Randle even with prior history of foot surgery.
Do you really think I'd prefer Doug McDermott over Randle just because he's healthier? _________________ Resident Car Nut.
I think this subject can be a lot more controversial than most think.
It really isn't. There's a reason why one of them is considered a consensus top 5 pick, and the other isn't.
Exposure
Agreed. GMs and Scouts miss all the time. Russell has shown PG court vision and awareness, but what are we afraid of?
Lack of quickness. Body.
Who has it? Dunn.
What about Dunn's passing? 50% Assist rate.
What are we afraid of with Dunn? 3pt. range.
You can add 3pt. range. You can't add quickness/size as easily.
I don't think shooting is that easy to add and it's a bit hand wavy to say that quickness and size aren't as easy to add as shooting range. For a 19 year old to bulk up would not be that difficult, and athleticism can be improved rapidly as well.
I do like Dunn though.
Totally disagree.
It's a lot easier to make someone a 40% shooter behind the arc, than to gain flat out speed/quickness/add 4" of vert.
See Trevor Ariza
See Danny Green
See Blake Griffin...the list goes on
the shooting argument for Dunn is so weak, especially since the mechanics are there unlike Marcus Smart
Not sold on his mechanics, and id be willing to bet his 3pt % his rookie year won't be better than Smart's 33.5
Smart's issue w his mechanics were over stated, and him shooting decently from 3 proves that. They have similar mechanics if anything, they both take the ball too far behind their head, Dunn doing it more egregiously. Don't like Smart's sideways setup?
Look at Kyle Lowry and Nick young - very solid shooters
Dunn is a better prospect than Smart. He has the tools and the motor to be an equal defender. And he also is explosive and has the ball handling to be a much better slasher. All star potential comes down to the jumpshot. If this were the NBA 10 years ago, Dunn would be a top 10 pick no doubt, becuase he can seriously eat with that mid range jumper. But will he have the green light on it to hunt out that shot time after time?
Russell... Adding athleticism does make u more injury prone, probably. MikeLg is right. Jabari Parker played with sooo much more torque his rookie season than in years past, and look what happend. Not a coincidence.
I still am all for Russell adding quickness , and I think he can. Big reason why he's in my top 3. Becuase without some more quickness and leaping ability at the rim, he won't be great at the next level IMO
^ Ya I prefer his mechanics to Mudiay and Smart's after looking at those shots. Dunn's biggest issue is leaning back, which he does a lot on his mid range attempts; on those 3pointers he was straight up and down and it looked pure
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum