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jonnybravo
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 Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | Lakers2001 wrote: | | LandsbergerRules wrote: | | Haha, I hope Cleveland is kicking themselves for the next decade plus for letting this kid go. Hope he has an awesome career. |
More like the lakers regretting winning 3 or 4 more games last year. We could have had a shot at him if we only knew how to tank the correct way. |
Yep Dammit! |
Well Cleveland won that draft and they had 6 more wins than we did...
Our regret is not having some incriminating evidence on the NBA like Dan Gilbert evidently does. 3 out of last 4 #1 picks. SMFH. |
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l4kerz
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:45 am Post subject: |
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| Would y'all trade a healthy Randle for Wiggins? I would. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| frenchbullcho wrote: | | Don't think about it too much. First year in the NBA. |
Sure, but there are also people who want to call him a future superstar based on what he has done during his first year in the NBA (or, in the case of this thread, one clip from a game against the Rockets). He could turn out to be a superstar, for sure. As of right now, though, the indicators are pointing toward him being a good player, maybe an occasional all star, but not a superstar. |
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rwongega
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Don Draper
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| rwongega wrote: | | Meh, Wiggins would've gotten injured as a Laker. It's guaranteed. |
No kidding. That one health guy on our team who has all our guys on all-steak diets must be injecting some bone-softeners into the beef. |
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AY2043
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Joined: 26 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | frenchbullcho wrote: | | Don't think about it too much. First year in the NBA. |
Sure, but there are also people who want to call him a future superstar based on what he has done during his first year in the NBA (or, in the case of this thread, one clip from a game against the Rockets). He could turn out to be a superstar, for sure. As of right now, though, the indicators are pointing toward him being a good player, maybe an occasional all star, but not a superstar. |
All you can really ask a rookie to do in his first season his "show flashes" of what you hope he'll someday be able to do on a regular basis. You can't expect them to come out and go gangbusters in their first year, no matter who they are. And when they do its a great surprise.
This is one of those cases of a rookie "showing a flash". |
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22
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Don Draper wrote: | | rwongega wrote: | | Meh, Wiggins would've gotten injured as a Laker. It's guaranteed. |
No kidding. That one health guy on our team who has all our guys on all-steak diets must be injecting some bone-softeners into the beef. |
If there's anything I miss from the Phil regime, it's the training staff he had.
We need alex back. The jury is out on DiFransesco |
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GoldenThroat
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | kaoss128 wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | This is getting a bit nutty. Wiggins has had an unimpressive rookie season, though he will probably win ROTY by default because his competitors all went down with injuries. He has an occasional good game, but that's about it. His defense has been poor. (Harden actually had a triple double in that game.) If you compare his production to other rookies in recent years who went on to become stars, it isn't pretty.
I'm not writing the kid off. Maybe he'll get it together next year. As of now, though, I don't see him as a budding superstar. He's a highlight reel creation, just like he was in high school. |
What? Yes Wiggins had a slow start to his rookie year but since 2015 started he's been averaging 18.5 PPG on 47% shooting. The kid is balling. |
He did shoot .471 for the month of January, but he regressed in February. He's averaging 15.9 in February, and that includes the 30 point game against Houston.
Anyway, if you make an apples to apples comparison (as opposed to cherry picking part of the season) with other recent highly touted rookies who turned out to be stars, it's not pretty. |
I think 15.9ppg while sharing the wing with Kevin Martin is actually quite good. His 15.6ppg overall this year makes him the highest scoring rookie wing since '10, and when combined with his defense (I disagree with your evaluation here, obviously), he's having the best season of any rookie wing player since Durant in '08. |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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He's exactly what most thought he would be.
A better version of DeMar DeRozan, especially on the D side of things.
If he were on the Lakers we wouldn't have to worry about one of the wing positions for the next 10-12 years. Don't know why everyone expects each player to become the next Shaq, or Kobe or Lebron. |
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Theseus
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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I think great defensive possessions deserve more acknowledgement, so its good to see a thread geared towards that.
I'm not one to put a lot of stock into what rookies do, but I think you definitely want to encourage that if you are anyone in the T-Wolves organization. That guy has the athletic and physical tools to become a great defensive player |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | I think 15.9ppg while sharing the wing with Kevin Martin is actually quite good. His 15.6ppg overall this year makes him the highest scoring rookie wing since '10, and when combined with his defense (I disagree with your evaluation here, obviously), he's having the best season of any rookie wing player since Durant in '08. |
If you mean SGs and SFs, you may be right, but then there haven't been any SGs or SFs who have developed into superstars in the last few drafts. I guess you could argue for Klay Thompson, but his rookie numbers were actually a lot better than Wiggins' on a per 36 basis. He just didn't get as much playing time. If I had to choose an example to argue against myself, I'd probably pick Paul George. However, Klay Thompson and Paul George are a tier below what some people seem to expect from Wiggins.
Bear in mind that I'm addressing the notion that Wiggins is a budding superstar, not whether Wiggins will be a good, productive player. Maybe Wiggins will prove me wrong, but I'm not seeing a budding superstar.
As for defense, I won't claim to have watched a great deal of the TWolves this year. When I have, however, I haven't seen anything special in Wiggins' defense. When I look at the metrics, I see some poor numbers. I take defensive metrics with a grain of salt, but a guy who is supposed to be a defensive stopper shouldn't have awful numbers.
Again, this may be a consistency issue. If someone like you thinks that he is a plus defender, I give that some weight. You wouldn't say that just because of hype. Given that my own observations are different, and given that the metrics say something different, this tells me that Wiggins isn't putting forth a consistent effort defensively. |
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Telleris
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | kaoss128 wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | This is getting a bit nutty. Wiggins has had an unimpressive rookie season, though he will probably win ROTY by default because his competitors all went down with injuries. He has an occasional good game, but that's about it. His defense has been poor. (Harden actually had a triple double in that game.) If you compare his production to other rookies in recent years who went on to become stars, it isn't pretty.
I'm not writing the kid off. Maybe he'll get it together next year. As of now, though, I don't see him as a budding superstar. He's a highlight reel creation, just like he was in high school. |
What? Yes Wiggins had a slow start to his rookie year but since 2015 started he's been averaging 18.5 PPG on 47% shooting. The kid is balling. |
He did shoot .471 for the month of January, but he regressed in February. He's averaging 15.9 in February, and that includes the 30 point game against Houston.
Anyway, if you make an apples to apples comparison (as opposed to cherry picking part of the season) with other recent highly touted rookies who turned out to be stars, it's not pretty. |
I think 15.9ppg while sharing the wing with Kevin Martin is actually quite good. His 15.6ppg overall this year makes him the highest scoring rookie wing since '10, and when combined with his defense (I disagree with your evaluation here, obviously), he's having the best season of any rookie wing player since Durant in '08. |
Having a lot run through him while they were all injured and playing kid force til late January seems to have helped him a lot
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LandsbergerRules
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| Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:11 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | He's exactly what most thought he would be.
A better version of DeMar DeRozan, especially on the D side of things.
If he were on the Lakers we wouldn't have to worry about one of the wing positions for the next 10-12 years. Don't know why everyone expects each player to become the next Shaq, or Kobe or Lebron. |
Well said, wolfpac.
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KeepItRealOrElse
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| Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:36 am Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | kaoss128 wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | This is getting a bit nutty. Wiggins has had an unimpressive rookie season, though he will probably win ROTY by default because his competitors all went down with injuries. He has an occasional good game, but that's about it. His defense has been poor. (Harden actually had a triple double in that game.) If you compare his production to other rookies in recent years who went on to become stars, it isn't pretty.
I'm not writing the kid off. Maybe he'll get it together next year. As of now, though, I don't see him as a budding superstar. He's a highlight reel creation, just like he was in high school. |
What? Yes Wiggins had a slow start to his rookie year but since 2015 started he's been averaging 18.5 PPG on 47% shooting. The kid is balling. |
He did shoot .471 for the month of January, but he regressed in February. He's averaging 15.9 in February, and that includes the 30 point game against Houston.
Anyway, if you make an apples to apples comparison (as opposed to cherry picking part of the season) with other recent highly touted rookies who turned out to be stars, it's not pretty. |
I think 15.9ppg while sharing the wing with Kevin Martin is actually quite good. His 15.6ppg overall this year makes him the highest scoring rookie wing since '10, and when combined with his defense (I disagree with your evaluation here, obviously), he's having the best season of any rookie wing player since Durant in '08. |
He hit his stride with Martin sidelined tho, right?
I'lll admit it, not a fan of Wiggins cuz he can't dribble. lol. superstar wings all can dribble. not sold.. |
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Dreamshake
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| Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | As for defense, I won't claim to have watched a great deal of the TWolves this year. When I have, however, I haven't seen anything special in Wiggins' defense. When I look at the metrics, I see some poor numbers. I take defensive metrics with a grain of salt, but a guy who is supposed to be a defensive stopper shouldn't have awful numbers. |
I have only seen his two games against us, but in those games his defense on Harden was amongst the best I've seen against him all season. He has the speed and quickness to stay in front of him, doesn't fall for those fakes and length (and hops) to recover and contest shots. |
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spflakers
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| Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:15 am Post subject: |
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I think he's gonna be damn good. He does have an issue with occasionally drifting during certain games, and Saunders has called him out on those occasions. But I don't think it's really a trait to worry about long-term. (And it is something I think playing alongside KG will help).
He's been hitting the type of shots that you just don't see a lot of wing players in the league hit: Stepback jumpers from 20 feet, spinning off the dribble and hitting a long jumper. They are the, yes, Kobeesque perimter shots that are really rare. And he's hitting a respectable 34.7 from three.
Is he LeBron? Well, no. But you can be a superstar without being one of the 10 best players in league history. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| AY2043 wrote: | All you can really ask a rookie to do in his first season his "show flashes" of what you hope he'll someday be able to do on a regular basis. You can't expect them to come out and go gangbusters in their first year, no matter who they are. And when they do its a great surprise.
This is one of those cases of a rookie "showing a flash". |
I'm not sure where this notion came from, but it seems to an emerging cliche. However, if you look at the records of most rookies who went on to become superstars, they did a lot more than "show flashes." The guys who didn't produce from early on, and who then developed into superstars, are the exceptions, not vice versa. |
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KBH
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| Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | kaoss128 wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | This is getting a bit nutty. Wiggins has had an unimpressive rookie season, though he will probably win ROTY by default because his competitors all went down with injuries. He has an occasional good game, but that's about it. His defense has been poor. (Harden actually had a triple double in that game.) If you compare his production to other rookies in recent years who went on to become stars, it isn't pretty.
I'm not writing the kid off. Maybe he'll get it together next year. As of now, though, I don't see him as a budding superstar. He's a highlight reel creation, just like he was in high school. |
What? Yes Wiggins had a slow start to his rookie year but since 2015 started he's been averaging 18.5 PPG on 47% shooting. The kid is balling. |
He did shoot .471 for the month of January, but he regressed in February. He's averaging 15.9 in February, and that includes the 30 point game against Houston.
Anyway, if you make an apples to apples comparison (as opposed to cherry picking part of the season) with other recent highly touted rookies who turned out to be stars, it's not pretty. |
I think 15.9ppg while sharing the wing with Kevin Martin is actually quite good. His 15.6ppg overall this year makes him the highest scoring rookie wing since '10, and when combined with his defense (I disagree with your evaluation here, obviously), he's having the best season of any rookie wing player since Durant in '08. |
I was about to make the same post. I think the guy has been impressive. |
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70sdude
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| Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | 70sdude wrote: | | Wiggins moves rather well, doesn't he ? Nice to see defensive effort and ability of that level from a lottery pick player, especially coming late season when his team's been in the cellar after ten games. |
Of course being the #1 pick in the hyped draft usually means folks want an alpha dog HOF player. But he has a lot of Scottie Pippen (different games of course) in him where he locks down players and can do a bit of everything. Still boggles my mind why Cavs/Asst GM Lebron wanted to trade him. He's the kind of guy that would be LBJ's Pippen, and oh, they'd have some cap space to get a guy like Love in the offseason too (with some maneuvering). |
The trade made sense to me. Wiggins seems a natural SF at each end of the court, much like LeBron. Why retain a #1 pick as backup for him ? With two starting-quality guards already on the roster at the time, and their fit unexplored, the Cavs moved Wiggins to fill the very empty PF slot with K-Love. They got a proven all-NBA guy who passes well, shoots the three well, and rebounds superbly. I'd have done it too, with a Cavs hat on. |
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22
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| Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| 70sdude wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | 70sdude wrote: | | Wiggins moves rather well, doesn't he ? Nice to see defensive effort and ability of that level from a lottery pick player, especially coming late season when his team's been in the cellar after ten games. |
Of course being the #1 pick in the hyped draft usually means folks want an alpha dog HOF player. But he has a lot of Scottie Pippen (different games of course) in him where he locks down players and can do a bit of everything. Still boggles my mind why Cavs/Asst GM Lebron wanted to trade him. He's the kind of guy that would be LBJ's Pippen, and oh, they'd have some cap space to get a guy like Love in the offseason too (with some maneuvering). |
The trade made sense to me. Wiggins seems a natural SF at each end of the court, much like LeBron. Why retain a #1 pick as backup for him ? With two starting-quality guards already on the roster at the time, and their fit unexplored, the Cavs moved Wiggins to fill the very empty PF slot with K-Love. They got a proven all-NBA guy who passes well, shoots the three well, and rebounds superbly. I'd have done it too, with a Cavs hat on. |
but at this point, Lebron's best position is PF IMO. They'd have much better balance and much less bickering about whose getting the shots with Wiggins aboard |
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Vancouver Fan
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| Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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Wiggins is going to be a star.
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kaoss128
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| Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| 22 wrote: | | 70sdude wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | 70sdude wrote: | | Wiggins moves rather well, doesn't he ? Nice to see defensive effort and ability of that level from a lottery pick player, especially coming late season when his team's been in the cellar after ten games. |
Of course being the #1 pick in the hyped draft usually means folks want an alpha dog HOF player. But he has a lot of Scottie Pippen (different games of course) in him where he locks down players and can do a bit of everything. Still boggles my mind why Cavs/Asst GM Lebron wanted to trade him. He's the kind of guy that would be LBJ's Pippen, and oh, they'd have some cap space to get a guy like Love in the offseason too (with some maneuvering). |
The trade made sense to me. Wiggins seems a natural SF at each end of the court, much like LeBron. Why retain a #1 pick as backup for him ? With two starting-quality guards already on the roster at the time, and their fit unexplored, the Cavs moved Wiggins to fill the very empty PF slot with K-Love. They got a proven all-NBA guy who passes well, shoots the three well, and rebounds superbly. I'd have done it too, with a Cavs hat on. |
but at this point, Lebron's best position is PF IMO. They'd have much better balance and much less bickering about whose getting the shots with Wiggins aboard |
I always thought it was stupid to make the trade during the summer. I still think if they had held off until the deadline they could force the Wolves to do the trade without Wiggins. |
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GoldenThroat
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| Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | I think 15.9ppg while sharing the wing with Kevin Martin is actually quite good. His 15.6ppg overall this year makes him the highest scoring rookie wing since '10, and when combined with his defense (I disagree with your evaluation here, obviously), he's having the best season of any rookie wing player since Durant in '08. |
If you mean SGs and SFs, you may be right, but then there haven't been any SGs or SFs who have developed into superstars in the last few drafts. I guess you could argue for Klay Thompson, but his rookie numbers were actually a lot better than Wiggins' on a per 36 basis. He just didn't get as much playing time. If I had to choose an example to argue against myself, I'd probably pick Paul George. However, Klay Thompson and Paul George are a tier below what some people seem to expect from Wiggins.
Bear in mind that I'm addressing the notion that Wiggins is a budding superstar, not whether Wiggins will be a good, productive player. Maybe Wiggins will prove me wrong, but I'm not seeing a budding superstar.
As for defense, I won't claim to have watched a great deal of the TWolves this year. When I have, however, I haven't seen anything special in Wiggins' defense. When I look at the metrics, I see some poor numbers. I take defensive metrics with a grain of salt, but a guy who is supposed to be a defensive stopper shouldn't have awful numbers.
Again, this may be a consistency issue. If someone like you thinks that he is a plus defender, I give that some weight. You wouldn't say that just because of hype. Given that my own observations are different, and given that the metrics say something different, this tells me that Wiggins isn't putting forth a consistent effort defensively. |
My perspective regarding rookies is that even the good ones are going to show fleeting flashes of brilliance amidst a good degree of stupidity, ignorance, and inattention to detail. I don't agree with Phil's "rookies or lower than whale (bleep)", but I understand why he said it.
I agree with the notion that it's a consistency issue, on both ends of the court. He's not a nightly stopper on the defensive end, and he's not a nightly go-to guy on the offensive end. There are, however, nights where he looks completely unguardable, and like an All-NBA defender on the other end. And it's not just a matter of getting hot during those times, because any player looks great when that happens, it's that the opponent looks overmatched, as they would against a superstar.
That being said, I can't argue too vehemently against your perspective that he's not a future superstar. I see why you would say that. But I also don't feel comfortable with shutting the door on the possibility either. If he can take those 10 dominant games his rookie year and turn them into 20-25 next year, and then 35-40 the following year, he'll be on his way. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:02 am Post subject: |
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| Sure, I wouldn't shut the door on the possibility. Not everyone develops at the same pace. I wouldn't even be saying much on the subject, except that some people in this thread proclaimed Wiggins a future superstar based on a flash of brilliance. All sorts of guys showed occasional flashes of brilliance. |
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70sdude
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:50 am Post subject: |
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| 22 wrote: | | 70sdude wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | 70sdude wrote: | | Wiggins moves rather well, doesn't he ? Nice to see defensive effort and ability of that level from a lottery pick player, especially coming late season when his team's been in the cellar after ten games. |
Of course being the #1 pick in the hyped draft usually means folks want an alpha dog HOF player. But he has a lot of Scottie Pippen (different games of course) in him where he locks down players and can do a bit of everything. Still boggles my mind why Cavs/Asst GM Lebron wanted to trade him. He's the kind of guy that would be LBJ's Pippen, and oh, they'd have some cap space to get a guy like Love in the offseason too (with some maneuvering). |
The trade made sense to me. Wiggins seems a natural SF at each end of the court, much like LeBron. Why retain a #1 pick as backup for him ? With two starting-quality guards already on the roster at the time, and their fit unexplored, the Cavs moved Wiggins to fill the very empty PF slot with K-Love. They got a proven all-NBA guy who passes well, shoots the three well, and rebounds superbly. I'd have done it too, with a Cavs hat on. |
but at this point, Lebron's best position is PF IMO. They'd have much better balance and much less bickering about whose getting the shots with Wiggins aboard |
I think LeBron's not a PF, and that LOve's a better one. I also think LeBron is not interested in the lunch box work (picks, block outs, body-banging) that power forwards typically must do. I also think he's such a talented ball-handler and creative passer - when facing the hoop ready to drive and dish - that LeBron in alternative (PF) role puts the ball into the hands of poorer decision-makers too early and too often. |
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