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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:29 am Post subject: What Are Your Reasons For Being an Anti-Tanker at This Point of the Season? |
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Not a troll thread at all. At this point, I have a difficult time understanding an anti-tank stance. I get that prolific and long-enduring tank jobs do stain the culture of the franchise. But our two past seasons are the direct results of catastrophic injuries (Kobe, Nash, Randle to name a few). I think it's fair to question the FO's decisions, but it is what it is. At this point, it makes no sense to try to win games and jeopardize a top 5 pick.
For those who take the principled position of being an anti-tanker, I would genuinely like to know the reasons behind the principle. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals
Last edited by yinoma2001 on Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Don Draper Retired Number
Joined: 21 Feb 2008 Posts: 28431 Location: LA --> Bay Area
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Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:32 am Post subject: |
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Last year I was an anti-tanker until the end, mainly because I thought the top 10 picks were all around the same talent level and that we gained nothing but loss of prestige by trying to lose more and pick higher.
This year though, we've already lost all the prestige we could possibly lose, and unlike before, we have no chance at a pick lower than the top 5. So there was no reason for me not to get behind the Abrams this year. |
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Omar Little Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90305 Location: Formerly Known As 24
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Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:34 am Post subject: |
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At this stage the die is cast. No real benefit to a few more wins. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:37 am Post subject: |
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I certainly do not have the stomach to be a pro-tanker next year. It's really warped my fandom of the Lakers. For the first time in my life I found myself cheering for a Celtics win this Sunday. Never have I even contemplated this.
(I said 3 Magic Johnson baby-hook shot Hail Marys as penance).
I hope we can get back to cheering for the team and rooting for wins again. This has been a terrible 2 years to be a Lakers fan. Yet, we're still here! _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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City_Dawg Retired Number
Joined: 14 Jul 2006 Posts: 46878 Location: Coming soon and striking at your borders.
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Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:40 am Post subject: |
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As usual because I can't make up my mind I'm sort of in the middle. I certainly understand the need to tank (draft pick, cheap talent, etc). But I'll never go down the rabbit hole of actively rooting for losses or getting all butthurt when the team manages to win a game. _________________ *sighs*
!... |
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rustyray Sixth Man
Joined: 29 Sep 2014 Posts: 31
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Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:41 am Post subject: |
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If the Lakers win okay I am good with it, but I feel the same way when they lose now...its okay, I am good with it.
I always want them to win...but at this point we need to remember this season is done....the best thing for the future of this team is getting that top 5 pick and getting a player to groom for the future of the Lakers next to Randle. |
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The Shadow King Star Player
Joined: 02 Apr 2011 Posts: 4363 Location: Dallas, Texas
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Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:42 am Post subject: |
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I was on board last year and I'm on board this year but I cannot do it a 3rd year in a row. It's time to turn this around, starting this off-season. _________________ Lakers, today. Lakers, tomorrow. Lakers, forever. |
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tyusedney1 Starting Rotation
Joined: 20 Jul 2014 Posts: 408
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Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:46 am Post subject: |
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there's still half a season left. you're just gonna drive yourself and everyone around you crazy if they win a few more games. so screw it. just watch the games and try to enjoy it rather than getting upset and rooting for them to fail |
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Inigo Montoya Sixth Man
Joined: 02 Dec 2014 Posts: 55
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Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:50 am Post subject: |
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I'm not worried about 'staining' the franchise or loss of prestige, but I do care about player development. I don't want them picking up bad habits by being put in a bad position. Is Clarkson learning to play his position the right way when we intentionally avoid spreading the floor for him so that we lose more games? Is it helping Ryan Kelly at all to be spending this time playing small forward? What in the world are we teaching them on defense? Are we missing out on something by playing Lin without spacing for the entire season?
If we are going to tank, then play the rookies the right way, and buy out the vets who might impact the tank (i.e. Boozer and Lin). But this half-assed tanking by playing people at the wrong position or in the wrong way is stupid. I would rather try to win games than 'stupid tank' for maybe at tops a 20% chance of a transformational player instead of a draft bust to average starter type player. |
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Jim99187 Franchise Player
Joined: 03 Jan 2014 Posts: 22138
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Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:56 am Post subject: |
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Jim Buss/Mitch Cupcake: fake laker pride. |
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Reflexx Franchise Player
Joined: 25 Jun 2005 Posts: 11163
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Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:17 am Post subject: |
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I think you really need to define what you mean by "tanking".
I don't think many people have a problem with developing players and trying different lineups in a lost season. The record from this point on is meaningless.
If you put out a lineup of sub-par player because you want to see how they respond to adversity and see who plays well together, that's fine. It's a luxury you don't have when you're in the playoff hunt.
With a lost season you are afforded the luxury to take larger risks because the price of losing is mainly pride.
But you NEVER go out there with the intention of losing.
If you throw out an odd lineup, you do so because you want to see if this particular lineup can find chemistry together and compete. You can't do proper talent evaluation if you purposely try to create lineups for the purpose of losing. You hope that these guys remember what they practiced and trust each other so they find lightning in a bottle.
You don't expect them to win because they are likely less talented than the opponent. But you do expect them to try to win. And you make sure the coach is trying to coach them to win.
So to me, tanking is when you are purposely trying to lose. That's unethical and doesn't belong in professional sports. |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:19 am Post subject: |
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Reflexx wrote: | I think you really need to define what you mean by "tanking".
I don't think many people have a problem with developing players and trying different lineups in a lost season. The record from this point on is meaningless.
If you put out a lineup of sub-par player because you want to see how they respond to adversity and see who plays well together, that's fine. It's a luxury you don't have when you're in the playoff hunt.
With a lost season you are afforded the luxury to take larger risks because the price of losing is mainly pride.
But you NEVER go out there with the intention of losing.
If you throw out an odd lineup, you do so because you want to see if this particular lineup can find chemistry together and compete. You can't do proper talent evaluation if you purposely try to create lineups for the purpose of losing. You hope that these guys remember what they practiced and trust each other so they find lightning in a bottle.
You don't expect them to win because they are likely less talented than the opponent. But you do expect them to try to win. And you make sure the coach is trying to coach them to win.
So to me, tanking is when you are purposely trying to lose. That's unethical and doesn't belong in professional sports. |
So playing RKelly at SF, what do you see that as? _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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Reflexx Franchise Player
Joined: 25 Jun 2005 Posts: 11163
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Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:22 am Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | Reflexx wrote: | I think you really need to define what you mean by "tanking".
I don't think many people have a problem with developing players and trying different lineups in a lost season. The record from this point on is meaningless.
If you put out a lineup of sub-par player because you want to see how they respond to adversity and see who plays well together, that's fine. It's a luxury you don't have when you're in the playoff hunt.
With a lost season you are afforded the luxury to take larger risks because the price of losing is mainly pride.
But you NEVER go out there with the intention of losing.
If you throw out an odd lineup, you do so because you want to see if this particular lineup can find chemistry together and compete. You can't do proper talent evaluation if you purposely try to create lineups for the purpose of losing. You hope that these guys remember what they practiced and trust each other so they find lightning in a bottle.
You don't expect them to win because they are likely less talented than the opponent. But you do expect them to try to win. And you make sure the coach is trying to coach them to win.
So to me, tanking is when you are purposely trying to lose. That's unethical and doesn't belong in professional sports. |
So playing RKelly at SF, what do you see that as? |
I see that as us having a glut at PF, and trying to find a playing time for a player that needs to develop.
They believe that Kelly has some talent. But with all the PFs we already have, we just don't have room to play him there. |
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infinite-loop Sixth Man
Joined: 05 Oct 2014 Posts: 84
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Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:38 am Post subject: |
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My one and only anti-tank reason:
Tanking makes evaluating the coaching difficult. Do we know for sure if we want invest another year in Byron Scott or not?
This has ripple effects in getting free agents, in developing younger players (including the supposedly awesome player we'd get with the top 5 pick), and in the performance in the next (few) seasons. |
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DimesnD Starting Rotation
Joined: 14 Feb 2009 Posts: 944
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Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:46 am Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: |
So playing RKelly at SF, what do you see that as? |
I think that is filed under player development. They have to rule out that Kelly is not a SF. umm. Check.
The real clue regarding tanking is player developing Sacre into a #1 option. |
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Four Decade Bandwagon Star Player
Joined: 18 Jul 2014 Posts: 8147
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Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:49 am Post subject: |
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Reflexx wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | Reflexx wrote: | I think you really need to define what you mean by "tanking".
I don't think many people have a problem with developing players and trying different lineups in a lost season. The record from this point on is meaningless.
If you put out a lineup of sub-par player because you want to see how they respond to adversity and see who plays well together, that's fine. It's a luxury you don't have when you're in the playoff hunt.
With a lost season you are afforded the luxury to take larger risks because the price of losing is mainly pride.
But you NEVER go out there with the intention of losing.
If you throw out an odd lineup, you do so because you want to see if this particular lineup can find chemistry together and compete. You can't do proper talent evaluation if you purposely try to create lineups for the purpose of losing. You hope that these guys remember what they practiced and trust each other so they find lightning in a bottle.
You don't expect them to win because they are likely less talented than the opponent. But you do expect them to try to win. And you make sure the coach is trying to coach them to win.
So to me, tanking is when you are purposely trying to lose. That's unethical and doesn't belong in professional sports. |
So playing RKelly at SF, what do you see that as? |
I see that as us having a glut at PF, and trying to find a playing time for a player that needs to develop.
They believe that Kelly has some talent. But with all the PFs we already have, we just don't have room to play him there. |
Kelly at SF is an abomination. At no point should he be playing the position. He is a end of the bench role player. Maybe a stretch 4 for a few mpg on a good night. As for the glut at PF. Is that really going to change much next season? sorry, rant over.
I hate myself for supporting a tank but I do. I want that top 5 pick. I find myself wanting to see them play a hard fought competitive game then lose at the end. I still watch every game. How much fast forwarding I do depends on the game.
Lakers need to do whatever it takes to keep it. Then hope like h*ll they choose wisely. Then somehow lure at least one quality free agent to the team.
With some luck and more importantly hard work they can become competitive again and this pathetic era will come to a close as they rebuild. |
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22 Franchise Player
Joined: 05 Apr 2013 Posts: 17063
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Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:58 am Post subject: |
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City_Dawg wrote: | As usual because I can't make up my mind I'm sort of in the middle. I certainly understand the need to tank (draft pick, cheap talent, etc). But I'll never go down the rabbit hole of actively rooting for losses or getting all butthurt when the team manages to win a game. |
I'm with you CD! My mind knows what's best, but my heart just can't admit it. I'm stuck |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:26 am Post subject: |
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That top 5 protection is like your AA leader sipping on a Heineken while teaching the class, all the while chastising you for being an alcoholic. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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Lakers#1Team Retired Number
Joined: 24 Jun 2005 Posts: 36363 Location: Nomad
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Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:46 am Post subject: |
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The ends do not justify the means when it comes to "in game" strategy. The same can be said for player adjustments.
I agree with Reflexx. You should never as a coach or player step on the court or sideline with the intention of losing that game. Losing your integrity is not worth it. Otherwise the NBA becomes the WWF. Is that what you want? The fix is in? A planned loss?? This combined with legalizing sports betting?
Given the way the season has went I expect the Lakers to concentrate on player development. I expect any player moves to be for player evaluation purposes. I expect the Lakers to play hard every game and still try to win every game they play.
I would love to have the top 5 pick but not at the cost of the Lakers losing their integrity. |
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27 Star Player
Joined: 26 Sep 2010 Posts: 4451 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:50 am Post subject: |
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considering the totality of circumstances this season, tanking is by far the best way to go. |
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CHAMP24 Starting Rotation
Joined: 24 Feb 2015 Posts: 329
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Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:58 am Post subject: |
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Reflexx wrote: | I think you really need to define what you mean by "tanking".
I don't think many people have a problem with developing players and trying different lineups in a lost season. The record from this point on is meaningless.
If you put out a lineup of sub-par player because you want to see how they respond to adversity and see who plays well together, that's fine. It's a luxury you don't have when you're in the playoff hunt.
With a lost season you are afforded the luxury to take larger risks because the price of losing is mainly pride.
But you NEVER go out there with the intention of losing.
If you throw out an odd lineup, you do so because you want to see if this particular lineup can find chemistry together and compete. You can't do proper talent evaluation if you purposely try to create lineups for the purpose of losing. You hope that these guys remember what they practiced and trust each other so they find lightning in a bottle.
You don't expect them to win because they are likely less talented than the opponent. But you do expect them to try to win. And you make sure the coach is trying to coach them to win.
So to me, tanking is when you are purposely trying to lose. That's unethical and doesn't belong in professional sports. |
All it is the equivalent of an unintentional/intentional walk in baseball. It's OK to admit they are indirectly tanking |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:00 am Post subject: |
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Lakers#1Team wrote: | The ends do not justify the means when it comes to "in game" strategy. The same can be said for player adjustments.
I agree with Reflexx. You should never as a coach or player step on the court or sideline with the intention of losing that game. Losing your integrity is not worth it. Otherwise the NBA becomes the WWF. Is that what you want? The fix is in? A planned loss?? This combined with legalizing sports betting?
Given the way the season has went I expect the Lakers to concentrate on player development. I expect any player moves to be for player evaluation purposes. I expect the Lakers to play hard every game and still try to win every game they play.
I would love to have the top 5 pick but not at the cost of the Lakers losing their integrity. |
Well, how is the NBA's integrity given the CP3 fiasco? _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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psy123321123 Starting Rotation
Joined: 12 Jul 2014 Posts: 107
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Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:01 am Post subject: |
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Several reasons, one, you cannot guarantee a good player from your top draft pick. I mean look at Wes Johnson for crying out loud. Second, the fans want to see some competition and entertainment, so basically the team has wasted a year. Third, look at the other teams aiming to tank? Where are they? Oh right, they're still at the bottom. Philadelphia ring a bell? Boston? Fourth, this is against a lot of the free agent's interest. Is Carlos Boozer going to get a bigger contract after this year? What about Jeremy Lin? That 25 point game by Lin is not unusual for him if he's allowed to play, he did it all time in Houston when Harden wasn't playing. Boozer? The guy is automatic with that mid range.
So in a nutshell, it hurts the team, you don't want to be Philly, it hurts the fans for a year, it hurts the free agents.
The Lakers ought to be fined for this. |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:02 am Post subject: |
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psy123321123 wrote: | Several reasons, one, you cannot guarantee a good player from your top draft pick. I mean look at Wes Johnson for crying out loud. Second, the fans want to see some competition and entertainment, so basically the team has wasted a year. Third, look at the other teams aiming to tank? Where are they? Oh right, they're still at the bottom. Philadelphia ring a bell? Boston? Fourth, this is against a lot of the free agent's interest. Is Carlos Boozer going to get a bigger contract after this year? What about Jeremy Lin? That 25 point game by Lin is not unusual for him if he's allowed to play, he did it all time in Houston when Harden wasn't playing. Boozer? The guy is automatic with that mid range.
So in a nutshell, it hurts the team, you don't want to be Philly, it hurts the fans for a year, it hurts the free agents.
The Lakers ought to be fined for this. |
Welcome to the new NBA.
Adam Silver is presiding over this. Wonder how long he will let the embarrassment continue re: tankfest. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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jonnybravo Retired Number
Joined: 21 Sep 2007 Posts: 30675
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Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:02 am Post subject: |
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City_Dawg wrote: | As usual because I can't make up my mind I'm sort of in the middle. I certainly understand the need to tank (draft pick, cheap talent, etc). But I'll never go down the rabbit hole of actively rooting for losses or getting all butthurt when the team manages to win a game. |
It's cozy down here! |
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