Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 10:02 am Post subject: The NBA & Lakers are fixing games
By incentivising losing to get a lower draft pick, isn't that fixing games.
Let's say Golden State is tied for the league's best record with Atlanta with one game to go. Let's say Atlanta plays the Lakers the Last Game of the season with home court advantage on the line.
If the Lakers win, they will become the six worst team instead of the 5th.
Straight odds lottery system, all 14 lotto teams get randomly shuffled. Sure there might be some late season tanking by 8 seeds but they'd probably be happy making playoffs too and at least you wouldn't have to endure a 76rs type season, maybe just the last couple games. Also an 8 seed might still have like the 15th pick which isn't bad, especially given the lotto might have shot them like a 12 or 13 anyway
I also proposed an even odds lotto system. I don't see any team that is in the race for the playoffs throwing games so they can miss the playoffs and enter into the lottery for a shot at who knows what pick. _________________ "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up."-The Greatest
No one is losing games on purpose. That is a myth.
Ummmm have you not watched the 76rs who openly admit to "taking advantage of the opportunity presented by the lottery system"
They still are not losing games on purpose. What they are doing is assembling the worst roster possible so that they are the least competitive team in games. They are not missing shots or turning over the ball on purpose to ensure losses. That was always a myth perpetuated by fans who were obsessed with the word tanking.
No one is losing games on purpose. That is a myth.
Ummmm have you not watched the 76rs who openly admit to "taking advantage of the opportunity presented by the lottery system"
They still are not losing games on purpose. What they are doing is assembling the worst roster possible so that they are the least competitive team in games. They are not missing shots or turning over the ball on purpose to ensure losses. That was always a myth perpetuated by fans who were obsessed with the word tanking.
No one is losing games on purpose. That is a myth.
Ummmm have you not watched the 76rs who openly admit to "taking advantage of the opportunity presented by the lottery system"
The players aren't missing shots on purpose. The coach isn't playing golf instead of coaching. Show me the quote where the 76ers players admit to losing on purpose (and yet somehow, haven't lost them all).
Sure, management isn't pulling out all the stops to win now, but if that's tanking, than any team doing a rebuild would be tanking then. Or a team sitting a recovering player who could play. Playing older players fewer minutes in the reg season for a playoff push. Benching a player in foul trouble. Playing your young players and allowing them to learn on the job, etc.
No one is losing games on purpose. There are management teams out there intentionally failing to build a quality roster but you can't prevent that. If that's what you want stopped, no player could ever be traded for an expiring contract. You'd have to support no Pau Gasol to LA and call our rings while he was here asterisked.
As with any business, sometimes you have to take a step back to move forward. Maybe you have too much old inventory, you have to liquidate, even sell at a loss, in order to move forward with newer products. Taking a step back to take two forward.
No one is losing games on purpose. That is a myth.
Ummmm have you not watched the 76rs who openly admit to "taking advantage of the opportunity presented by the lottery system"
They still are not losing games on purpose. What they are doing is assembling the worst roster possible so that they are the least competitive team in games. They are not missing shots or turning over the ball on purpose to ensure losses. That was always a myth perpetuated by fans who were obsessed with the word tanking.
Yup. "Tanking" means a team assembles a collection of players who aren't good enough to win. The players who are actually on the court are trying to win and play well, because it isn't in their self-interest to play poorly.
Straight odds lottery system, all 14 lotto teams get randomly shuffled. Sure there might be some late season tanking by 8 seeds but they'd probably be happy making playoffs too and at least you wouldn't have to endure a 76rs type season, maybe just the last couple games. Also an 8 seed might still have like the 15th pick which isn't bad, especially given the lotto might have shot them like a 12 or 13 anyway
Straight odds lottery system, all 14 lotto teams get randomly shuffled. Sure there might be some late season tanking by 8 seeds but they'd probably be happy making playoffs too and at least you wouldn't have to endure a 76rs type season, maybe just the last couple games. Also an 8 seed might still have like the 15th pick which isn't bad, especially given the lotto might have shot them like a 12 or 13 anyway
Sure, that might solve the tanking problem. But it opens up a new problem. The basic purpose of the draft is to give the worst teams a better chance to improve, and your system eliminates that. And that's the basic problem with all anti-tanking solutions: They also hurt the terrible teams that are trying.
Before there was a lottery, there will be terrible NBA teams who won 14 or 15 games. And no matter what system you put in place will always be terrible teams. I don't think tanking merits completely revamping the lottery system.
The fundamental problem is that the average draft has only 3-5 players who are expected to be stars. I don't mean superstars like Lebron or Durant. I mean just stars. Some drafts are pretty lean, some are deeper. Of course, some guys who weren't expected to be stars surprise everyone, but that's pretty much a crap shoot.
It isn't like the NFL, where there are guys with serious star potential who go in the second round, or even later. This means that the value of an NBA draft pick drops so fast that late first round picks are often viewed as a liability because of the guaranteed contract.
There are two ways to deal with it in my opinion:
1. As AV says, the purposes of the lottery is to give the worst teams the best chances to improve. If that is the goal, then tanking is unavoidable no matter what kind of system you adopt. About the best you could do is install some sort of penalty for teams like the Sixers who game the system, but then the Sixers would just need to figure out how to game the new system.
2. Screw it all and go to the wheel. Tanking will cease to exist. Maybe the salary cap system could be adjusted to give the worst teams an extra MLE or something like that.
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35812 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:54 pm Post subject:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
The fundamental problem is that the average draft has only 3-5 players who are expected to be stars. I don't mean superstars like Lebron or Durant. I mean just stars. Some drafts are pretty lean, some are deeper. Of course, some guys who weren't expected to be stars surprise everyone, but that's pretty much a crap shoot.
It isn't like the NFL, where there are guys with serious star potential who go in the second round, or even later. This means that the value of an NBA draft pick drops so fast that late first round picks are often viewed as a liability because of the guaranteed contract.
There are two ways to deal with it in my opinion:
1. As AV says, the purposes of the lottery is to give the worst teams the best chances to improve. If that is the goal, then tanking is unavoidable no matter what kind of system you adopt. About the best you could do is install some sort of penalty for teams like the Sixers who game the system, but then the Sixers would just need to figure out how to game the new system.
2. Screw it all and go to the wheel. Tanking will cease to exist. Maybe the salary cap system could be adjusted to give the worst teams an extra MLE or something like that.
I've come to favor #2.
What if a superteam happened to win the #1 pick? _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90305 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 8:29 pm Post subject:
I like the five tiered wheel, with random draw from within each group. I would also add an amnesty provision where teams could amnesty one contract at a time. Bad contracts are big contributor to being stuck. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel
1. Who cares? Did the NBA collapse when we drafted Magic and the Celtics drafted Larry Bird? Did the NBA collapse when we drafted Worthy?
2. It sounds worse than it really would be. Everyone thinks about a player like Lebron, but the reality is that most #1 picks aren't impact players as rookies. Who was the last #1 pick who would have gotten significant playing time on a superteam? Maybe Kyrie Irving, but more likely Lebron and before him Duncan. Wiggins, Bennett, and Wall weren't ready out of the gate, and Davis and Griffin were hurt.
3. If that is really such a big concern for you, though, it's easy to fix. Rule: Notwithstanding your wheel position, your draft slot cannot be higher than (1) the first slot that provides for a guaranteed salary that would not put you over the luxury tax threshold based on your payroll during the year before the draft, or (2) fifth, whichever is higher. I just made up that rule off the cuff. It could be massaged to deal with any mechanical objections. The point is you can deal with the problem without swallowing a system that encourages tanking.
Straight odds lottery system, all 14 lotto teams get randomly shuffled. Sure there might be some late season tanking by 8 seeds but they'd probably be happy making playoffs too and at least you wouldn't have to endure a 76rs type season, maybe just the last couple games. Also an 8 seed might still have like the 15th pick which isn't bad, especially given the lotto might have shot them like a 12 or 13 anyway
Sure, that might solve the tanking problem. But it opens up a new problem. The basic purpose of the draft is to give the worst teams a better chance to improve, and your system eliminates that. And that's the basic problem with all anti-tanking solutions: They also hurt the terrible teams that are trying.
Before there was a lottery, there will be terrible NBA teams who won 14 or 15 games. And no matter what system you put in place will always be terrible teams. I don't think tanking merits completely revamping the lottery system.
Not exactly, these bad teams would still have a good chance to get a high pick (50% 7th pick or higher). Not only this, but our current system punishes bad teams for actually trying to instill a winning culture and missing playoffs when they could have tanked, leaving them in perpetual mediocrity. The true even odds system is perfect since it can still turn the tides for a bad team, while also giving no incentive to lose games. The only drawback as I previously stated was potential late season tanking by 8 seeds, but even that is much more bearable than what we have going on now.
Straight odds lottery system, all 14 lotto teams get randomly shuffled. Sure there might be some late season tanking by 8 seeds but they'd probably be happy making playoffs too and at least you wouldn't have to endure a 76rs type season, maybe just the last couple games. Also an 8 seed might still have like the 15th pick which isn't bad, especially given the lotto might have shot them like a 12 or 13 anyway
Sure, that might solve the tanking problem. But it opens up a new problem. The basic purpose of the draft is to give the worst teams a better chance to improve, and your system eliminates that. And that's the basic problem with all anti-tanking solutions: They also hurt the terrible teams that are trying.
Before there was a lottery, there will be terrible NBA teams who won 14 or 15 games. And no matter what system you put in place will always be terrible teams. I don't think tanking merits completely revamping the lottery system.
Not exactly, these bad teams would still have a good chance to get a high pick (50% 7th pick or higher). Not only this, but our current system punishes bad teams for actually trying to instill a winning culture and missing playoffs when they could have tanked, leaving them in perpetual mediocrity. The true even odds system is perfect since it can still turn the tides for a bad team, while also giving no incentive to lose games. The only drawback as I previously stated was potential late season tanking by 8 seeds, but even that is much more bearable than what we have going on now.
make a separate lotto for the playoff teams, only 1 ball drawn and the winner gets the 3rd overall pick, that could eliminate last minute tanking.
make the playoffs and you could land the next Jordan if you get lucky
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