|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
WindyCityLakerFan
Star Player
Joined: 18 Jul 2002
Posts: 1537
Location: Chicago
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
|
 Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| It's interesting that the union tossed the race card onto the table. That will give the league some heartburn. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GoldenThroat
Moderator
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 37474
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | It's interesting that the union tossed the race card onto the table. That will give the league some heartburn. |
Ya, they didn't pull any punches in their verbiage either. 
And they're right. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GoldenThroat
Moderator
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 37474
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| And I'm sure you're far better than I am at sifting through what is bravado and what is real, AH, but this version of the NBAPA seems to be gearing up for war. They seem far more aggressive than the previous regime. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lakerfan 4 Life
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Apr 2001
Posts: 16096
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Bring it back to 18. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| GoldenThroat wrote: | | And I'm sure you're far better than I am at sifting through what is bravado and what is real, AH, but this version of the NBAPA seems to be gearing up for war. They seem far more aggressive than the previous regime. |
Right. It remains to be seen whether actions will match rhetoric. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
WindyCityLakerFan
Star Player
Joined: 18 Jul 2002
Posts: 1537
Location: Chicago
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | It's interesting that the union tossed the race card onto the table. That will give the league some heartburn. |
I had to look up Gary Kohlman and he is white. I'm trying to see if someone can play the race card against their own race. I think if he said hockey, baseball, golf and tennis people would have read in between the lines. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kikanga
Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012
Posts: 29277
Location: La La Land
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Glad the players association has grown some chutzpa.
Hope they tag back the owners on the next round of negotations.
It'll come down to how much money the association saves for the players. Owners always feel/know they can sweat out the players if games and paychecks get sacrificed.
Hope the players make provisions against plans like Governor Walker's "Pay Their Way plan" too. If players are gonna pay for owner expenses. They should get a piece of the team.
_________________
"Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
danzag
Franchise Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2013
Posts: 22311
Location: Brazil
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Get rid of the age limit. And the straight out of high school block. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kikanga wrote: | | Hope the players make provisions against plans like Governor Walker's "Pay Their Way plan" too. If players are gonna pay for owner expenses. They should get a piece of the team. |
It would be sort of funny if they argued that the Wisconsin income taxes of NBA players should be treated as part of the owners' split of revenues, since Governor Walker says that the taxes are being used to build an arena for the owners.
But really, there are bigger fish to fry than that. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kikanga
Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012
Posts: 29277
Location: La La Land
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | Hope the players make provisions against plans like Governor Walker's "Pay Their Way plan" too. If players are gonna pay for owner expenses. They should get a piece of the team. |
It would be sort of funny if they argued that the Wisconsin income taxes of NBA players should be treated as part of the owners' split of revenues, since Governor Walker says that the taxes are being used to build an arena for the owners.
But really, there are bigger fish to fry than that. |
You're right. But it still ticks me off.
_________________
"Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
venturalakersfan
Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144461
Location: The Gold Coast
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kikanga wrote: | Glad the players association has grown some chutzpa.
Hope they tag back the owners on the next round of negotations.
It'll come down to how much money the association saves for the players. Owners always feel/know they can sweat out the players if games and paychecks get sacrificed.
Hope the players make provisions against plans like Governor Walker's "Pay Their Way plan" too. If players are gonna pay for owner expenses. They should get a piece of the team. |
Players have always paid for owner expenses, they are the source of most revenue.
_________________
RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kikanga
Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012
Posts: 29277
Location: La La Land
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| venturalakersfan wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | Glad the players association has grown some chutzpa.
Hope they tag back the owners on the next round of negotations.
It'll come down to how much money the association saves for the players. Owners always feel/know they can sweat out the players if games and paychecks get sacrificed.
Hope the players make provisions against plans like Governor Walker's "Pay Their Way plan" too. If players are gonna pay for owner expenses. They should get a piece of the team. |
Players have always paid for owner expenses, they are the source of most revenue. |
I get that. But it just feels slimy. Didn't the owners get enough?
They won almost every major battle in the last lockout.
They're about to get a huge payday with TV contracts.
They already can get their stadiums payed for by citizens in the city/state.
But that not enough. The players have to disproportionally pay for their working environment (the stadium) that everyone else is enjoying (owners, fans/citizens) but they work at.
The owners gained 8% of basketball related income in the last lockout. What are they spending it on?
_________________
"Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KobeBryantCliffordBrown
Star Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 6429
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 8:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | It's interesting that the union tossed the race card onto the table. That will give the league some heartburn. |
It's interesting that that term is used almost exclusively by white people when they want to dismiss claims, legitimate or not, by blacks of racial discrimination.
Now I don't know your motivation for using that term, but whenever I hear it, I immediately dismiss anything said further by that individual on the matter. I view it as an a priori sign of racial bias, intentional or not.
As for the age limit, Adam Silver said that he views it as "good for the game" to have an age limit. What a joke unless he defines "The game" as the 30 megagazillionaires who are NBA owners or the NCAA and it's programs that make millions off the talents of the the few who are NBA ready.
_________________
“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KobeBryantCliffordBrown
Star Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 6429
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 8:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| GoldenThroat wrote: | | And I'm sure you're far better than I am at sifting through what is bravado and what is real, AH, but this version of the NBAPA seems to be gearing up for war. They seem far more aggressive than the previous regime. |
Oh hell yeah. Roberts don't play that (bleep) and while, ultimately, it might be a losing proposition because the owners have more money than the players, stranger things have happened than the fulfillment of the notion that the more aggressive version of the NBPA could prevail in the next round of negotiations.
Billy Hunter and his cronies were good at two things, graft and caving. I don't think MR has that in her and the more militant player reps can make a difference as well.
Imagine the NBPA voting to decertify just as the huge TV deal hits into place.
Basically, the NBA has had it's way for so long they think that they are invincible. I do not believe that to be the case.
_________________
“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 8:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | It's interesting that that term is used almost exclusively by white people when they want to dismiss claims, legitimate or not, by blacks of racial discrimination.
Now I don't know your motivation for using that term, but whenever I hear it, I immediately dismiss anything said further by that individual on the matter. I view it as an a priori sign of racial bias, intentional or not. |
Well, good for you, I guess. The union still played the race card. Deal with it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KobeBryantCliffordBrown
Star Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 6429
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 8:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | It's interesting that that term is used almost exclusively by white people when they want to dismiss claims, legitimate or not, by blacks of racial discrimination.
Now I don't know your motivation for using that term, but whenever I hear it, I immediately dismiss anything said further by that individual on the matter. I view it as an a priori sign of racial bias, intentional or not. |
Well, good for you, I guess. The union still played the race card. Deal with it. |
No, the union tied the age limit restriction to the notion that in the context that it is used, it has a certain stench of racial discrimination. YOU used a throwaway term, one that is almost exclusively used to dismiss out of had accusations of racial bias justified or not, as some sort of final word on the matter, Newsflash for you. White people can believe as they wish, but the truth is the truth and just because they say it doesn't make it so. You can argue the losing point you are arguing as long as you want and you'll still lose. You can't possibly spin this into a victory but it'll be fun watching you try.Deal with THAT Jack!
_________________
“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 7:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
| KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Well, good for you, I guess. The union still played the race card. Deal with it. |
No, the union tied the age limit restriction to the notion that in the context that it is used, it has a certain stench of racial discrimination. YOU used a throwaway term, one that is almost exclusively used to dismiss out of had accusations of racial bias justified or not, as some sort of final word on the matter, Newsflash for you. White people can believe as they wish, but the truth is the truth and just because they say it doesn't make it so. You can argue the losing point you are arguing as long as you want and you'll still lose. You can't possibly spin this into a victory but it'll be fun watching you try.Deal with THAT Jack! |
Fine, so you think I'm a racist. Good for you. The union still played the race card. Deal with it. Calling me a bigot, patting yourself on the back, and declaring victory is about as persuasive as . . . well, telling us how much money you make and how well educated you are. That tactic didn't work out for you, either. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KobeBryantCliffordBrown
Star Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 6429
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 8:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Well, good for you, I guess. The union still played the race card. Deal with it. |
No, the union tied the age limit restriction to the notion that in the context that it is used, it has a certain stench of racial discrimination. YOU used a throwaway term, one that is almost exclusively used to dismiss out of had accusations of racial bias justified or not, as some sort of final word on the matter, Newsflash for you. White people can believe as they wish, but the truth is the truth and just because they say it doesn't make it so. You can argue the losing point you are arguing as long as you want and you'll still lose. You can't possibly spin this into a victory but it'll be fun watching you try.Deal with THAT Jack! |
Fine, so you think I'm a racist. Good for you. The union still played the race card. Deal with it. Calling me a bigot, patting yourself on the back, and declaring victory is about as persuasive as . . . well, telling us how much money you make and how well educated you are. That tactic didn't work out for you, either. |
I have no idea if you practice racism. and I never said you're a racist. I said that that term is proof of racial bias. If you put that bias into action, then you are a racist. I have no idea if you do or not. I'm shocked at your looseness of words.
As to how persuasive my argument, It'll have an effect on a few, not many. I really don't care. If you like I'll pull the science, you argue against that. Good luck.
As to your personal dislike of me and how I go about posting, that's really irrelevant. Your choice and it doesn't matter one bit to me.
But when you or anyone else throws out that incredibly charged and biased word in person, or on a forum, and I hear it, I'm going to call them out. And in all those times, there has never been a time when anything close to a compelling argument has been made that the term is anything less or different than I described it.
Sucks when you can't do or say ANYTHING you want eh?
_________________
“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LakerSanity
Moderator
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 33474
Location: Long Beach, California
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 8:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
It's called "playing the race card" because it implicates a suspect motive in citing to race. There very well may be racial undertones, but the context in which race was referenced in scenarios like this (i.e. posturing for bargaining purposes) creates that kind of suspicion. If the NBAPA attorney wasn't the NBAPA's attorney and said the same thing (having no financial or professional incentive to do so), it would be different.
The NBAPAs attorney is certainly more experienced and accomplished than I am, so I can't say I have the standing to criticize him. However, using race the way he did (whether there is validity to it or not) comes off amateurish and cheap. Sounded like he might have been playing to the crowd. If he wants to talk about the underlying systemic racism that an age limit may implicate, there are certainly more articulate ways to do it and much more appropriate venues/audiences to first engage that discussion with too.
I also wonder if citing to race plays on deaf ears. I recognize the Sterling fiasco and what happened with Danny Ferry. However, does the average NBA viewer really associate an age limit with race? And, if they don't, given the recency of the Sterling/Ferry events, could there be backlash trying to tie race to this issue in the eyes of sponsors/customers (who are the only people the NBA cares about)? It's possible that doing so at this point could come off as disingenuous. In other words, it could very well be perceived as someone trying to dishonestly take advantage of an issue to serve his purposes. Again, the "race card." Also, he failed to cite to football. I doubt he wants to open up hat can of worms.
Lastly, its surprising the NBAPA sticks up for the young guys. It's in the best financial interest of the current players to actually raise the age limit, or keep it the same bare minimum. If you delay entry by a group of players into the NBA, it means more job security for current players and means more revenue shares for the current players. So why raise the age limit? Because of the agents. It's the big time agents who want to make more money off their young clients as soon as possible.
_________________
LakersGround's Terms of Service
Twitter: @DeleteThisPost
Last edited by LakerSanity on Fri Mar 06, 2015 8:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KobeBryantCliffordBrown
Star Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 6429
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 8:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
| LakerSanity wrote: | It's called "playing the race card" because it implicates a suspect motive in citing to race. There very well may be racial undertones, but the context in which race was referenced in scenarios like this (i.e. posturing for bargaining purposes) creates that kind of suspicion. If the NBAPA attorney wasn't the NBAPA's attorney and said the same thing (having no financial or professional incentive to do so), it would be different.
The NBAPAs attorney is certainly more experienced and accomplished than I am, so I can't say I have the standing to criticize him. However, using race the way he did (whether there is validity to it or not) comes off amateurish and cheap. Sounded like he might have been playing to the crowd. If he wants to talk about the underlying systemic racism that an age limit may implicate, there are certainly more articulate ways to do it and much more appropriate venues/audiences to first engage that discussion with too.
| Quote: | Nothing suspect to it at all. The rule is a rule in place that basically enforces free labor and takes out of the job market a group of people who would benefit to the tune of millions of dollars and that cohort is almost entirely black while the group that benefits, i.e. NBA owners and NCAA program AD's etc are almost entirely white.
And, more importantly, in practice, once that terms is thrown out, it immediately changes the tone of the conversation from possible consideration to outright dismissal. You want to use it fine, your right. I'll level the exact criticism I did to AH. You want to discuss the issue, discuss it without code words.
By the way, wonder what he would have to say about Football then. Maybe the same thing?
Also, its surprising the NBAPA sticks up for the young guys... except when you realize they are just doing what their agents tell them. It's in the best financial interest of the current players to raise the age limit. (If you delay entry by a group of players into the NBA, it means more job security for current players and means more revenue shares for the current players). So why raise the age limit? Because the big time agents want to make more money off their young clients as soon as possible. |
|
_________________
“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LakerSanity
Moderator
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 33474
Location: Long Beach, California
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 8:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
The NBA doesn't directly benefit from that free labor. Rather, college does. I don't believe there is any evidence of revenue sharing between college and the NBA - that would be pretty interesting if there was. The NBA's only incentive is to create the best product possible. It thinks having more mature players serves that goal (there is no rule forcing players to go to college, btw). The NBAPA's attorney's comments tried to paint the NBA's motives as, at least in part, race. However, I seriously doubt race is at all an issue for the NBA in taking its position. It would let 6 year old orphans play in the NBA if society allowed it and it could profit from it.
You are correct that the majority people affected are minorities. However, correlation does not mean causation. The age limit wasn't created to prejudice minorities. It was created for legitimate business purposes. Is that fair to the players who are capable of playing in the NBA, but can't due to their age? Of course not... but that doesn't mean race is the reason (or anything close to the reason) for the rule.
No matter, The reason his motives are suspicious have nothing to do with the legitimacy of his comments or whether race is an issue or not in this debate. Rather, the reasons for such suspicion have everything to do with his position and the context/timing of when/where he made them.
_________________
LakersGround's Terms of Service
Twitter: @DeleteThisPost
Last edited by LakerSanity on Fri Mar 06, 2015 9:08 am; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KobeBryantCliffordBrown
Star Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 6429
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 9:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
| LakerSanity wrote: | The NBA doesn't directly benefit from that free labor. Rather, college does. I don't believe there is any evidence of revenue sharing between college and the NBA - that would be pretty interesting if there was. The NBA's only incentive is to create the best product possible. The NBAPA's attorney's comments tried to paint the NBA as racists. However, I seriously doubt race is at all an issue for the NBA in making this kind of decision.
You are correct that the majority people affected are minorities. However, correlation does not mean causation. The age limit wasn't created to prejudice minorities. It was created for legitimate business purposes. Is that fair to the players who are capable of playing in the NBA, but can't due to their age? Of course not... but that doesn't mean race is the reason (or anything close to the reason) for the rule.
No matter, The reason his motives are suspicious have nothing to do with the legitimacy of his comments or whether race is an issue or not in this debate. Rather, the reasons for such suspicion have everything to do with his position and the context/timing of when/where he made them. |
No, but they do benefit from having more time to evaluate the players who would come out of high school and now have to play a year in college. The NCAA has different motivation. As to the NBA being racist. That's a matter of opinion. The dress code and 80's rock or country music played in most arenas paints a pretty good picture to me. Sterling, Levinson and Ferry are just more evidence. Are they more racist than the rest of America? I don't think so. Are they less racist that the rest of America? I do think so. Are they racist? Yes, I do think so.
_________________
“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LakerSanity
Moderator
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 33474
Location: Long Beach, California
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 9:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
Is the NBA racist? No. Do they employ racists? Yes, everyone does. Is the age limit motivated by race? No. Does the age limit have racial implications? Of course. Did the NBAPA attorney play the race card? Yes.
_________________
LakersGround's Terms of Service
Twitter: @DeleteThisPost |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chronicle
Retired Number
Joined: 21 Jul 2012
Posts: 31935
Location: Manhattan
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 9:11 am Post subject: |
|
|
Why does the age limit have racial implications? Forgive me if it's obvious, but I'm not seeing it
_________________
Kobe |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
