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Tony Anapolis
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 Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 4:30 pm Post subject: Has analytics ever won anything for anybody but the Spurs? |
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And lets face it the 2013 finals were close, but in the end the stars prevailed.
IMO, the Heat were gassed in 2014 Finals especially Lebron. In this day and age, a team that goes to the finals 4 years in a row is ridiculous, and imo, the way they built that team had very little to do with analytics.
The Hawks play the Cavs tonight, it is analytics vs superstardom. I think the Hawks can get the W tonight, they are playing at home, but my favorite to win it all as of right now is the Cleveland Cavs.
If the Cavs do win the finals with a freshly assembled team this year, I would say that puts a dent in analytics wouldn't you say?
For the record, and I have repeated this many times, I am not discounting analytics just making an observation. |
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ocho
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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Why is it exclusive? Heat used lots of analytics too. Analytics is basically mining useful information. Are people against information gathering? The teams that have both will win.
Reminds me a bit of the discussions in the late 1990s and the "internet." 15 years later I'm typing a post on an online messageboard on my phone. I think in 15 years people will similarly laugh at us for saying "analytics" too.
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Troublesome626
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | |
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lakersken80
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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Analytics is a tool to be used....and its here to stay.
Much like all new technology, once its out, you either use it or get left behind. |
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Dreamshake
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| The Heat and Mavs are heavy analytics teams. |
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Lakerfan 4 Life
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Hawks use it too right? The head coach is a Pop disciple. |
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Steve007
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | If the Cavs do win the finals with a freshly assembled team this year, I would say that puts a dent in analytics wouldn't you say? |
If anything it would say the opposite. Analytics doesn't tell us that superstars don't win titles. You make it sound like analytics tells us that guys like Magic, MJ, Shaq and Kobe in their prime wouldn't win.
Teams with superstars use analytics too. Just because Lebron plays for the Cavs, that doesn't mean they ignore analytics. If Duncan was 12 years younger, the Spurs would still use analytics.
Last edited by Steve007 on Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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fiendishoc
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Telleris
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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There were really only 4 teams engaged in analytics to a major level prior to 2010, San Antonio, Houston, Dallas and Boston, 3 of them have won nba titles in the last decade, the other fell apart to injuries.
Now you're looking at over half of the teams (and almost all the playoff teams) engaged to a somewhat significant level so the competitive advantage is mostly eroded.
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Steve007
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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| This thread is one reason why the comments from Charles Barkley annoy me. Barkley is so ignorant about analytics and I hope the OP didn't take his comments seriously. The OP seems to have some of the same views about analytics as Barkley. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:32 pm Post subject: Re: Has analytics ever won anything for anybody but the Spurs? |
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| Tony Anapolis wrote: | And lets face it the 2013 finals were close, but in the end the stars prevailed.
IMO, the Heat were gassed in 2014 Finals especially Lebron. In this day and age, a team that goes to the finals 4 years in a row is ridiculous, and imo, the way they built that team had very little to do with analytics.
The Hawks play the Cavs tonight, it is analytics vs superstardom. I think the Hawks can get the W tonight, they are playing at home, but my favorite to win it all as of right now is the Cleveland Cavs.
If the Cavs do win the finals with a freshly assembled team this year, I would say that puts a dent in analytics wouldn't you say?
For the record, and I have repeated this many times, I am not discounting analytics just making an observation. |
As others have said, you don't have to choose between analytics and superstars. Analytics is nothing more than using data to gain insights that can give you an advantage, It isn't magic, It isn't a substitution for superstars, and it is used by teams that have superstars (the Cavaliers have an analytics department), |
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Tony Anapolis
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the info guys, this is useful information.
I must admit, analytics is something that I take personal because it seems to have destroyed one of my favorite sports teams.
I'm from LA, but have lived in Cleveland for the past twenty years, and the Cleveland Indians are a team that have grown on me.
Now in the nineties the Indians were a powerhouse in MLB, but obviously not anymore. The franchise went all in on analytics once Manny Ramirez left town.
The front office has been preaching patience and analytics for the past 16 years, and the result has been ugly imo.
The roster is a revolving door year in and year out, the team is good most of the time, but not good enough to make the playoffs.
When they got rid of CC Sabathia and Cliff Lee the FO was preaching trust in analytics, the same with Manny Ramirez.
They have had countless opportunities to bring in quality FA's but disregarded because the "numbers" did not add up.
The result is a cheap team that is good, but will take a miracle to go to a world series. |
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Tony Anapolis
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Dreamshake wrote: | | The Heat and Mavs are heavy analytics teams. |
From what I understand the Heat are a 50/50 organization when it comes to analytics. This is probably the best approach. The Mavs are 100% analytical from my understanding. |
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vanexelent
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | (the Cavaliers have an analytics department), |
And they still drafted Bennet? |
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Tony Anapolis
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| vanexelent wrote: | | Quote: | | (the Cavaliers have an analytics department), |
And they still drafted Bennet? |
And Dion Waiters |
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Tony Anapolis
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| The Browns are an analytical franchise and they drafted Johnny "drug addict." |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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I'm sure Jerry West used a lot of analytics when he drafted 17 year old Kobe and then signed Shaq.
Sure Mitch used a ton of them in trading for Pau Gasol.
Jerry Buss in drafting Magic.
The number one reason you win or lose games is talent. You need the talent. However after that, things like analytics can help a great deal.
A team can be really behind on analytics and still be very good, because they have the star players together in prime. Conversely, you can have great analytics like teams in Philly, and a few other cities and not have the talent to show it.
OKC used a lot of analytics and that "smart thinking" and it led them to the bone headed decision of keeping Ibaka and Perkins over Harden. As I said at the time as an outsider that just watched the game with my eyes, it made little sense in trading Harden and paying Ibaka instead. However they did their math and determined it was better in the long run to mathematically formulate that ibaka, Perkins, durant and Westbrook would be better. I'm sure they would do this again. After all it's analytics. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | Why is it exclusive? Heat used lots of analytics too. Analytics is basically mining useful information. Are people against information gathering? The teams that have both will win.
Reminds me a bit of the discussions in the late 1990s and the "internet." 15 years later I'm typing a post on an online messageboard on my phone. I think in 15 years people will similarly laugh at us for saying "analytics" too. |
Every champion used some sort of analytics.
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Telleris
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: |
The number one reason you win or lose games is talent. You need the talent. However after that, things like analytics can help a great deal.
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Analytics applies to star players, very specifically to how to acquire star players
trade : what assets do i need
free agent : what does my team have to offer and how is the best way to clear the requisite cap space
draft : what do i do to suck
It also includes understanding when other factors play a part, location (NY and LA), personal relationships (Do you think Houston feels that there's any factor to their advantage as much as Durant's personal relationship with Harden in their possible attempt to recruit him?), age (once over 30 they're highly unlikely to turn down a 5 year max) etc
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kikanga
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Why is it exclusive? Heat used lots of analytics too. Analytics is basically mining useful information. Are people against information gathering? The teams that have both will win.
Reminds me a bit of the discussions in the late 1990s and the "internet." 15 years later I'm typing a post on an online messageboard on my phone. I think in 15 years people will similarly laugh at us for saying "analytics" too. |
Every champion used some sort of analytics. |
Imagining Bill Russell coaching, playing, and crunching modern day analytical numbers back in the day. That would be a funny sketch.
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jonnybravo
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Tony Anapolis wrote: | Thanks for the info guys, this is useful information.
I must admit, analytics is something that I take personal because it seems to have destroyed one of my favorite sports teams.
I'm from LA, but have lived in Cleveland for the past twenty years, and the Cleveland Indians are a team that have grown on me.
Now in the nineties the Indians were a powerhouse in MLB, but obviously not anymore. The franchise went all in on analytics once Manny Ramirez left town.
The front office has been preaching patience and analytics for the past 16 years, and the result has been ugly imo.
The roster is a revolving door year in and year out, the team is good most of the time, but not good enough to make the playoffs.
When they got rid of CC Sabathia and Cliff Lee the FO was preaching trust in analytics, the same with Manny Ramirez.
They have had countless opportunities to bring in quality FA's but disregarded because the "numbers" did not add up.
The result is a cheap team that is good, but will take a miracle to go to a world series. |
That's not the fault of analytics. If every team is using analytics, using it puts you at par. Not having the payroll is going to puts your team at a competitive disadvantage.
If anything, winning 85 and 92 wins in the last two years despite having a bottom 5 payroll shows you that the organization is mining some fantastic bang/buck players. The year the Indians won 92 wins, Detroit nabbed 93 wins with a payroll north of 130M while your Indians spent 82M. With the same team building philosophy and give them a competitive payroll and I guarantee the Indians will be contending every year. |
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Telleris
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Tony Anapolis wrote: | Thanks for the info guys, this is useful information.
I must admit, analytics is something that I take personal because it seems to have destroyed one of my favorite sports teams.
I'm from LA, but have lived in Cleveland for the past twenty years, and the Cleveland Indians are a team that have grown on me.
Now in the nineties the Indians were a powerhouse in MLB, but obviously not anymore. The franchise went all in on analytics once Manny Ramirez left town.
The front office has been preaching patience and analytics for the past 16 years, and the result has been ugly imo.
The roster is a revolving door year in and year out, the team is good most of the time, but not good enough to make the playoffs.
When they got rid of CC Sabathia and Cliff Lee the FO was preaching trust in analytics, the same with Manny Ramirez.
They have had countless opportunities to bring in quality FA's but disregarded because the "numbers" did not add up.
The result is a cheap team that is good, but will take a miracle to go to a world series. |
Analytics certainly assists teams trying to be cheap, but it's not the cause of them being cheap. Teams like the Red Sox and Yankees are heavily invested, and they're also willing (and in markets capable of) to run large payrolls. In terms of winning, if we have the same data and I'm qwilling to spend 200m and you can only spend 80m, you've probably got at best a 20% shot at beating me.
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fiendishoc
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Why is it exclusive? Heat used lots of analytics too. Analytics is basically mining useful information. Are people against information gathering? The teams that have both will win.
Reminds me a bit of the discussions in the late 1990s and the "internet." 15 years later I'm typing a post on an online messageboard on my phone. I think in 15 years people will similarly laugh at us for saying "analytics" too. |
Every champion used some sort of analytics. |
Imagining Bill Russell coaching, playing, and crunching modern day analytical numbers back in the day. That would be a funny sketch. |
You mean the Bill Russell that said this? :
| Quote: | | Bill Russell: My coach and I -- I call Red Auerbach "my coach" -- his background was math. We used to talk all the time about the game and life and things, but mostly equations. When you think about the game of basketball, it's played in a cube. There are boundaries: floor and ceiling, left, right, back and forth. And the other confinement is time. So what you do within those boundaries with the allotted amount of time is where the game is. |
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Theseus
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Drafting Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, Manu Ginobilli, and Kawhi Leonard is some snazzy analytics |
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