Pat Riley on why he can't stomach tanking as a strategy
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Scherm
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:35 am    Post subject: Pat Riley on why he can't stomach tanking as a strategy

At least for a 3-4 year strategy.

"It doesn't take a rocket scientist to be able to see what it takes," Riley said, running through his experience playing with West and Baylor and Wilt Chamberlain, coaching against Larry Bird and Kevin McHale and Robert Parish, and so on. "If you can get three of those kinds of players and fill it out with some other good guys, then you might be ahead of the curve....So there are a lot of ways to skin a cat.

"For me, it's not through the draft, because lottery picks are living a life of misery. That season is miserable. And if you do three or four years in a row to get lottery picks, then I'm in an insane asylum. And the fans will be, too. So who wants to do that?"
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:37 am    Post subject: Re: Pat Riley on why he can't stomach tanking as a strategy

Scherm wrote:
At least for a 3-4 year strategy.

"It doesn't take a rocket scientist to be able to see what it takes," Riley said, running through his experience playing with West and Baylor and Wilt Chamberlain, coaching against Larry Bird and Kevin McHale and Robert Parish, and so on. "If you can get three of those kinds of players and fill it out with some other good guys, then you might be ahead of the curve....So there are a lot of ways to skin a cat.

"For me, it's not through the draft, because lottery picks are living a life of misery. That season is miserable. And if you do three or four years in a row to get lottery picks, then I'm in an insane asylum. And the fans will be, too. So who wants to do that?"


Link by any chance, please?
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:40 am    Post subject:

Not to mention that the vast majority of lottery picks aren't even real game-changers.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:53 am    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
Not to mention that the vast majority of lottery picks aren't even real game-changers.



I've been trying to get that through the Pro-tankers skulls. So many great college players end up busts in the NBA. Not to mention the amount of time it takes for a rookie to develop. If this is the Lakers strategy going forward, then we need to be prepared for many, many years of sucking! The Lakers need to attract a franchise player and convince him to sign with us. This is L.A., Holloywood, bikinis, palm trees, great weather and beaches...it's never been a problem before so why is it now?!?!
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:56 am    Post subject:

oh puuleeeeaseee, Rile doesn't have the horses to tank, otherwise he'd do the same thing.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:02 pm    Post subject:

It's amazing that some teams have been able to convince their paying customers that being horrible is the best way to succeed. What's worse, is that the owners themselves have created a system for which that may actually be true. And it's not that they've stopped trying, smoothing the cap, raising the draft age, both centered on preventing players from dictating their destination (for draft age, it puts the 2nd "max" deal a year closer to 30 which makes it far riskier to leave a 5th year on the table).

I guess from the league's perspective, a decade where the Lakers aren't in the Finals every other year is a good thing. They've certainly tried to do everything they could to make that happen (including the Veto). It just so happens that LA has had some injury circumstances that may lead to landing two lotto cornerstones despite the win now pressures of the brand.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:16 pm    Post subject:

Laker's Fan wrote:
It's amazing that some teams have been able to convince their paying customers that being horrible is the best way to succeed. What's worse, is that the owners themselves have created a system for which that may actually be true. And it's not that they've stopped trying, smoothing the cap, raising the draft age, both centered on preventing players from dictating their destination (for draft age, it puts the 2nd "max" deal a year closer to 30 which makes it far riskier to leave a 5th year on the table).

I guess from the league's perspective, a decade where the Lakers aren't in the Finals every other year is a good thing. They've certainly tried to do everything they could to make that happen (including the Veto). It just so happens that LA has had some injury circumstances that may lead to landing two lotto cornerstones despite the win now pressures of the brand.


It's very easy for them to do so when so many teams have their hands in the Lakers money jar via revenue sharing. The system currently has (bleep) the Lakers in so many ways it's disgusting.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:17 pm    Post subject:

Well, when you draft Beasley with your #2 pick, that can taint your view.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:40 pm    Post subject:

kwase wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Not to mention that the vast majority of lottery picks aren't even real game-changers.



I've been trying to get that through the Pro-tankers skulls. So many great college players end up busts in the NBA. Not to mention the amount of time it takes for a rookie to develop. If this is the Lakers strategy going forward, then we need to be prepared for many, many years of sucking! The Lakers need to attract a franchise player and convince him to sign with us. This is L.A., Holloywood, bikinis, palm trees, great weather and beaches...it's never been a problem before so why is it now?!?!


Even with Randle, you'd be lucky to see a Lamar Odom level player.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:04 pm    Post subject:

kwase wrote:
I've been trying to get that through the Pro-tankers skulls. So many great college players end up busts in the NBA. Not to mention the amount of time it takes for a rookie to develop. If this is the Lakers strategy going forward, then we need to be prepared for many, many years of sucking! The Lakers need to attract a franchise player and convince him to sign with us. This is L.A., Holloywood, bikinis, palm trees, great weather and beaches...it's never been a problem before so why is it now?!?!


You don't need to be prepared for many, many years of sucking. Only a couple. See the Lakers after Magic retired.

As for the bolded, superstar free agents aren't coming because there's nothing to come to. Players on rookie contracts allow you to construct a decent team, and then that's when the stars want to come here. That's how you convince a star to come here.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:34 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
kwase wrote:
I've been trying to get that through the Pro-tankers skulls. So many great college players end up busts in the NBA. Not to mention the amount of time it takes for a rookie to develop. If this is the Lakers strategy going forward, then we need to be prepared for many, many years of sucking! The Lakers need to attract a franchise player and convince him to sign with us. This is L.A., Holloywood, bikinis, palm trees, great weather and beaches...it's never been a problem before so why is it now?!?!


You don't need to be prepared for many, many years of sucking. Only a couple. See the Lakers after Magic retired.

As for the bolded, superstar free agents aren't coming because there's nothing to come to. Players on rookie contracts allow you to construct a decent team, and then that's when the stars want to come here. That's how you convince a star to come here.


Actually, that's how you convince some good young starting talent to come, and those combined are how you nail the stars. Build in reverse. Young talent with upside on rookie deals, add in young vets with ability to start and play rolls, then invite a star to step right in and be the final piece.

Obviously if you can nail the star earlier, great.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 6:19 pm    Post subject:

24 wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
kwase wrote:
I've been trying to get that through the Pro-tankers skulls. So many great college players end up busts in the NBA. Not to mention the amount of time it takes for a rookie to develop. If this is the Lakers strategy going forward, then we need to be prepared for many, many years of sucking! The Lakers need to attract a franchise player and convince him to sign with us. This is L.A., Holloywood, bikinis, palm trees, great weather and beaches...it's never been a problem before so why is it now?!?!


You don't need to be prepared for many, many years of sucking. Only a couple. See the Lakers after Magic retired.

As for the bolded, superstar free agents aren't coming because there's nothing to come to. Players on rookie contracts allow you to construct a decent team, and then that's when the stars want to come here. That's how you convince a star to come here.


Actually, that's how you convince some good young starting talent to come, and those combined are how you nail the stars. Build in reverse. Young talent with upside on rookie deals, add in young vets with ability to start and play rolls, then invite a star to step right in and be the final piece.

Obviously if you can nail the star earlier, great.


Agreed. Although I think money is the main driver for what attracts starting quality (but not star) talent. But if everything else is relatively equal, LA is gonna win out most of the time.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 7:23 pm    Post subject:

Like it or not, the foundational piece for a contending team is often the star you were lucky to draft in the lottery. This was certainly the case for Miami.

Now you either get lucky and get it accidentally, or you can try to do it on purpose. That doesn't change how effective it is.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:31 pm    Post subject:

Totally agree with Riley. At the same time though, the Lakers are pretty much forced to get the top 5 pick. If it weren't for the horrendous Nash trade and the cost of the picks, id be totally against the tanking idea.

One season is ok, more than this, though, and it means the franchise is in real trouble, and Jim and company should get all the criticism they deserve.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:33 am    Post subject:

The problem with Riley's logic is that not every team has the same shot at signing marquee free agents. Certain markets are more enticing to certain players, and most of the markets aren't really that enticing at all. Utah is never signing a star in free agency, so they have to hope they get lucky enough to draft one, and the best way to do that is to tank for several years.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 8:12 am    Post subject:

improper wrote:
The problem with Riley's logic is that not every team has the same shot at signing marquee free agents. Certain markets are more enticing to certain players, and most of the markets aren't really that enticing at all. Utah is never signing a star in free agency, so they have to hope they get lucky enough to draft one, and the best way to do that is to tank for several years.



That is absolutely true. In addition to cap space, you need the following for successful free agent courtship:

1. Location
2. Supporting cast
3. Head coach
4. Salesmanship (that's Riles)

Riley has all four as his head coach gets instant credibility as he's a Riley hire (or sock puppet if you're cynically inclined). We have a better location than Miami though we're lacking the supporting cast (puzzling that we're not tanking for the #3 spot), the head coach (one of three failures in a row) and questionable salesmanship.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 8:13 am    Post subject:

24 wrote:


Actually, that's how you convince some good young starting talent to come, and those combined are how you nail the stars. Build in reverse. Young talent with upside on rookie deals, add in young vets with ability to start and play rolls, then invite a star to step right in and be the final piece.

Obviously if you can nail the star earlier, great.


There aren't many examples of this happening. Free Agent stars sign where there is already another star in place, not just bunch a role players.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 8:37 am    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
24 wrote:


Actually, that's how you convince some good young starting talent to come, and those combined are how you nail the stars. Build in reverse. Young talent with upside on rookie deals, add in young vets with ability to start and play rolls, then invite a star to step right in and be the final piece.

Obviously if you can nail the star earlier, great.


There aren't many examples of this happening. Free Agent stars sign where there is already another star in place, not just bunch a role players.


I think youre actually making my point. That you can't just have the draft guys. You need stuff in the middle too. If team a has some stud lotto picks and nothing, vs team b with stud lotto picks and some mid range and role playing talent, team b is ahead, both in attracting the first star (while trying to develop a rookie guy into one), but also to have trade assets.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:35 am    Post subject:

I don't see an argument anywhere in there.

And hey Pat, not everyone can get three buddy all-star players to collude to join your team as free agents at reduced prices.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 1:07 pm    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
Not to mention that the vast majority of lottery picks aren't even real game-changers.



As opposed to the vast majority of non-lottery picks who are real game changers?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:00 pm    Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:
Like it or not, the foundational piece for a contending team is often the star you were lucky to draft in the lottery. This was certainly the case for Miami. .



Miami's foundation has been a combination of a star they drafted (Wade) and stars they acquired through trades/free agency (Bosh, Lebron, Shaq). I'd actually consider Miami as a better example that you can build teams in any number of ways, and it usually requires all three.

The Spurs are really the only recent ring team that built their core squad from draft. Most everyone else needed trades/free agency to acquire at least one of their foundational pieces.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:51 pm    Post subject:

angrypuppy wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Not to mention that the vast majority of lottery picks aren't even real game-changers.



As opposed to the vast majority of non-lottery picks who are real game changers?


Nice.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:23 pm    Post subject:

kwase wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Not to mention that the vast majority of lottery picks aren't even real game-changers.



I've been trying to get that through the Pro-tankers skulls. So many great college players end up busts in the NBA. Not to mention the amount of time it takes for a rookie to develop. If this is the Lakers strategy going forward, then we need to be prepared for many, many years of sucking! The Lakers need to attract a franchise player and convince him to sign with us. This is L.A., Holloywood, bikinis, palm trees, great weather and beaches...it's never been a problem before so why is it now?!?!



Except those franchise players came by way of having the chance to draft a player in the top round. I mean they don't just materialize out of thing air, they have to come from somewhere.

Lebron, Duncan, Shaq, Michael, David Robinson, all top picks who came through the draft. Players don't come ready made, so I really don't understand that logical argument. You just need to make sure you do your due diligent when you have a lottery pick.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:37 pm    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
24 wrote:


Actually, that's how you convince some good young starting talent to come, and those combined are how you nail the stars. Build in reverse. Young talent with upside on rookie deals, add in young vets with ability to start and play rolls, then invite a star to step right in and be the final piece.

Obviously if you can nail the star earlier, great.


There aren't many examples of this happening. Free Agent stars sign where there is already another star in place, not just bunch a role players.


Let's say we had Milwaukee's roster. Solid young players, no "stars", good record, but certainly not a title contender. Superstars would be crawling all over themselves to join us if we were half way decent and had the money for two of them.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:44 pm    Post subject:

kwase wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Not to mention that the vast majority of lottery picks aren't even real game-changers.



I've been trying to get that through the Pro-tankers skulls. So many great college players end up busts in the NBA. Not to mention the amount of time it takes for a rookie to develop. If this is the Lakers strategy going forward, then we need to be prepared for many, many years of sucking! The Lakers need to attract a franchise player and convince him to sign with us. This is L.A., Holloywood, bikinis, palm trees, great weather and beaches...it's never been a problem before so why is it now?!?!


Sigh.

We've been trying to make FA splashes every off-season, and they have been choosing other teams. We have been combing the trade market for a good deal, and everyone is asking us to overpay.

What's the next best option? Hoping to strike gold in the DRAFT.

This team is not trying to tank for years and build like OKC does. They're tanking because it's all they can do until they get their next shot at the markets. Like it or not, you might as well hop on.
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