Another mentally Ill Black man killed by police
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KobeBryantCliffordBrown
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:11 am    Post subject:

sickside323 wrote:
KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
Wow, you're really a cop?


Come on now, are you really surprised?



Sadly....no. It's like those things in life that continually amaze you even though you see them all the time. But each time you see it, you go, "I can't believe it."
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:04 pm    Post subject:

If it was a flathead screwdriver, I can understand the shooting. If it was a phillips, not so much.

On second thought, I don't understand the flathead either.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:55 pm    Post subject:

I know for a fact not all police officers feel as Laker2001 does. Some realize the department is racial and to keep their jobs they go along to get along.

I haven't done any research, I wonder. How many Black officers have shot unarmed Black men?

Willie Lynch is alive and well.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:39 pm    Post subject:

For anyone interested in the legal issues, it sounds like today's oral argument was inconclusive:

http://www.scotusblog.com/2015/03/argument-analysis-can-a-really-rough-start-be-overcome/#more-226324
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:48 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
For anyone interested in the legal issues, it sounds like today's oral argument was inconclusive:

http://www.scotusblog.com/2015/03/argument-analysis-can-a-really-rough-start-be-overcome/#more-226324



It's going to be interesting to see the Court's response. My gut tells me that it will ultimately answer the question posed by Justice Roberts in the affirmative and leave the rest alone for lower courts to settle.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:14 pm    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
Lakers2001 wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
jodeke wrote:
The shooting Michael Brown has led to the beginning of that dialog. His dying may not be in vain. Further police shooting may illuminate the urgency for such dialog.


Michael Brown won't start the dialogue. As far as cops and the political right are concerned, that's just a case in which the race card got played by political opportunists. They consider the cop to be a martyr. There is no dialogue coming from that. If any of the recent cases contributes to a dialogue, it will be Staten Island.

The real dialogue will start when and if we get past the idea that this is purely a racial issue. If it is treated as white vs. black, then the polarization of our society makes rational discussion highly unlikely. Setting aside the racial overtones, the real question is whether this is the sort of police culture that we want. We could discuss that issue, but that is not the way that a lot of angry people want to frame the discussion.


What dialogue is there?

The one area i ding law enforcemnet on this we get lot of training every year when it comes to use of force and to the general public they know nothing of it. So when (bleep) happens its OMG he can do that!!



I think everyone understands the difficulties of being a cop and that use of force is necessary. However, in some of these cases it seems like an over-reaction to danger and in others, just outright murder. "Resisting arrest" is used with a broad stroke and often the result is the death on an unarmed suspect. So, I'd be interested in your training exercises that teach multiple officers to fire on an unarmed suspect or for multiple officers to escalate a minor infraction into a scenario where they are now choking an unarmed suspect. Scenarios like we've seen seem to highlight a lack of training and more officers acting out of fear.


No, you have no ideal. Unarmed does not mean harmless or you are not allowed to use deadly force. For example a subject armed with a pipe or ball bat.. I do not have to use less lethal means to subdue him. Sure I could always go for my baton or Taser, but if those fail i'm in trouble. A ball bat to the skull or vital part of the body is deadly force. Also another area the general public is not aware is a term "disparity in force". I would be foolish to wrestle a 6'6 300 pound man. Yes I can draw down on him and with verbal commands tell him to stop etc... He charges, I can fire and yes that’s justified if it ends up resulting in death. Now there is a multitude of factors before we even start talking about using deadly force from a officers stand point. Not every situation is that blk and white. Most of time there will be more officer presence when confronting subjects who display violate behavior (assuming this is in the form of a 911 call). Yet there are situations that can come out of nowhere such as traffic stops, public contacts etc. Its 3am in the morning and you pull over some drunk who wants to fight and he's 3 times your size then what? Oh yeah you are some state trooper wayyy out in the middle of nowhere (so your backup is prob 15-20 mins away? I am done with this debate because it’s a waste of time to argue with people that already have an "I hate the police attitude".
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:27 pm    Post subject:

Lakers2001 wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
Lakers2001 wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
jodeke wrote:
The shooting Michael Brown has led to the beginning of that dialog. His dying may not be in vain. Further police shooting may illuminate the urgency for such dialog.


Michael Brown won't start the dialogue. As far as cops and the political right are concerned, that's just a case in which the race card got played by political opportunists. They consider the cop to be a martyr. There is no dialogue coming from that. If any of the recent cases contributes to a dialogue, it will be Staten Island.

The real dialogue will start when and if we get past the idea that this is purely a racial issue. If it is treated as white vs. black, then the polarization of our society makes rational discussion highly unlikely. Setting aside the racial overtones, the real question is whether this is the sort of police culture that we want. We could discuss that issue, but that is not the way that a lot of angry people want to frame the discussion.


What dialogue is there?

The one area i ding law enforcemnet on this we get lot of training every year when it comes to use of force and to the general public they know nothing of it. So when (bleep) happens its OMG he can do that!!



I think everyone understands the difficulties of being a cop and that use of force is necessary. However, in some of these cases it seems like an over-reaction to danger and in others, just outright murder. "Resisting arrest" is used with a broad stroke and often the result is the death on an unarmed suspect. So, I'd be interested in your training exercises that teach multiple officers to fire on an unarmed suspect or for multiple officers to escalate a minor infraction into a scenario where they are now choking an unarmed suspect. Scenarios like we've seen seem to highlight a lack of training and more officers acting out of fear.


No, you have no ideal. Unarmed does not mean harmless or you are not allowed to use deadly force. For example a subject armed with a pipe or ball bat.. I do not have to use less lethal means to subdue him. Sure I could always go for my baton or Taser, but if those fail i'm in trouble. A ball bat to the skull or vital part of the body is deadly force. Also another area the general public is not aware is a term "disparity in force". I would be foolish to wrestle a 6'6 300 pound man. Yes I can draw down on him and with verbal commands tell him to stop etc... He charges, I can fire and yes that’s justified if it ends up resulting in death. Now there is a multitude of factors before we even start talking about using deadly force from a officers stand point. Not every situation is that blk and white. Most of time there will be more officer presence when confronting subjects who display violate behavior (assuming this is in the form of a 911 call). Yet there are situations that can come out of nowhere such as traffic stops, public contacts etc. Its 3am in the morning and you pull over some drunk who wants to fight and he's 3 times your size then what? Oh yeah you are some state trooper wayyy out in the middle of nowhere (so your backup is prob 15-20 mins away? I am done with this debate because it’s a waste of time to argue with people that already have an "I hate the police attitude".


So, you argue that the death of Eric Garner was appropriate and the escalation to use of deadly force, and then, standing by and watching him die without providing CPR was justified because it isn't your job to take any risk to yourself?
Well, then, why the hell do we pay you? If you aren't skilled and brave enough to do your job without shooting anyone who poses even the slightest risk, then, what good are you?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:16 am    Post subject:

I find it very objectionable to imply that there really isn't any reasonable position that is between "i stand with the cops", and "i hate cops". Part of the reason the police need a ton more scrutiny and criticism is the very fact that they, almost to a person, react so strongly against virtually any scrutiny or criticism.

Of course, the fact that it is statistically the safest era in the history of our country to be a cop, while it is a very dangerous period of time to be a civilian, particularly a person of color, and the fact that violent crime continues its steady downward trend while police militarization and aggressive behavior is going the other way, are cause to give all kf us a desire to know more, and to expect information and accountability. That doesn't make us cop haters. It makes us citizens exercising our right of oversight over our public servants.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:27 am    Post subject:

24 wrote:
I find it very objectionable to imply that there really isn't any reasonable position that is between "i stand with the cops", and "i hate cops". Part of the reason the police need a ton more scrutiny and criticism is the very fact that they, almost to a person, react so strongly against virtually any scrutiny or criticism.

Of course, the fact that it is statistically the safest era in the history of our country to be a cop, while it is a very dangerous period of time to be a civilian, particularly a person of color, and the fact that violent crime continues its steady downward trend while police militarization and aggressive behavior is going the other way, are cause to give all kf us a desire to know more, and to expect information and accountability. That doesn't make us cop haters. It makes us citizens exercising our right of oversight over our public servants.


Yeah, what this person ^ there said ...
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:55 am    Post subject:

24 wrote:
I find it very objectionable to imply that there really isn't any reasonable position that is between "i stand with the cops", and "i hate cops". Part of the reason the police need a ton more scrutiny and criticism is the very fact that they, almost to a person, react so strongly against virtually any scrutiny or criticism.

Of course, the fact that it is statistically the safest era in the history of our country to be a cop, while it is a very dangerous period of time to be a civilian, particularly a person of color, and the fact that violent crime continues its steady downward trend while police militarization and aggressive behavior is going the other way, are cause to give all kf us a desire to know more, and to expect information and accountability. That doesn't make us cop haters. It makes us citizens exercising our right of oversight over our public servants.


Actually we are under a lot of oversight and scrutiny that would make most people with avg jobs quit. When a cop uses deadly force it’s certainly not for show or sport its mostly because of a quick sudden / last resort to save himself or another person. The real kicker is most of us don’t make very much $$ at all for the risks legal and physical.


The second part of your post sounded like it came straight from Msnbc/CNN talking points. Young black males kill each other at very high rates due to socioeconomic issues in this country not because the POLICE are going around killing them. Address real issues blacks face not twist things to suit your real agenda.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:14 am    Post subject:

Lakers2001 wrote:
The second part of your post sounded like it came straight from Msnbc/CNN talking points. Young black males kill each other at very high rates due to socioeconomic issues in this country not because the POLICE are going around killing them. Address real issues blacks face not twist things to suit your real agenda.


If you are saying that the problem of police killing young black males is exaggerated, I understand where you're coming from. It has become a rallying cry lately, and we're getting a certain amount of wolf-crying. But if you are trying to brush off the problem by saying that young black males kill each other, I'm unsympathetic. In the context of this discussion, who cares whether they kill each other? That doesn't mean that cops have a license to thin the herd.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:23 am    Post subject:

24 wrote:
I find it very objectionable to imply that there really isn't any reasonable position that is between "i stand with the cops", and "i hate cops". Part of the reason the police need a ton more scrutiny and criticism is the very fact that they, almost to a person, react so strongly against virtually any scrutiny or criticism.


I agree with you, and it actually goes deeper than that. To a certain segment of society, cops become sort of a surrogate -- using guns to maintain order against the army of chaos.

On the other hand, don't forget that there is a flipside to what you say about cops. There is a segment of the population that will oppose anything that the cops do. Some members of that community fantasize about violence against cops.

There are racial components on both sides. These are messed up times.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:26 am    Post subject:

Lakers2001 wrote:
Actually we are under a lot of oversight and scrutiny that would make most people with avg jobs quit. When a cop uses deadly force it’s certainly not for show or sport its mostly because of a quick sudden / last resort to save himself or another person. The real kicker is most of us don’t make very much $$ at all for the risks legal and physical.


The second part of your post sounded like it came straight from Msnbc/CNN talking points. Young black males kill each other at very high rates due to socioeconomic issues in this country not because the POLICE are going around killing them. Address real issues blacks face not twist things to suit your real agenda.


We should also stop researching ways to cure cancer since heart disease kills people at a higher rate.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:14 am    Post subject:

Use of force in the Kelly Thomas case?
Cops never forced to take a day off after they, 6 of them, murdered a man by beating and tasing him to death under public transportation cameras...
Two of 6 charged...

That case was proof the blue line is too powerful and too corrupt.. If I was a cop I would have been outspoken in my need for those men to all face justice. But the blue line doesn't allow a fellow cop to speak up.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:28 am    Post subject:

Lakers2001 wrote:


No, you have no ideal. Unarmed does not mean harmless or you are not allowed to use deadly force. For example a subject armed with a pipe or ball bat.. I do not have to use less lethal means to subdue him. Sure I could always go for my baton or Taser, but if those fail i'm in trouble. A ball bat to the skull or vital part of the body is deadly force. Also another area the general public is not aware is a term "disparity in force". I would be foolish to wrestle a 6'6 300 pound man. Yes I can draw down on him and with verbal commands tell him to stop etc... He charges, I can fire and yes that’s justified if it ends up resulting in death. Now there is a multitude of factors before we even start talking about using deadly force from a officers stand point. Not every situation is that blk and white. Most of time there will be more officer presence when confronting subjects who display violate behavior (assuming this is in the form of a 911 call). Yet there are situations that can come out of nowhere such as traffic stops, public contacts etc. Its 3am in the morning and you pull over some drunk who wants to fight and he's 3 times your size then what? Oh yeah you are some state trooper wayyy out in the middle of nowhere (so your backup is prob 15-20 mins away? I am done with this debate because it’s a waste of time to argue with people that already have an "I hate the police attitude".


You've highlighted scenarios that include suspects with a lot more violent means than the cases we're referring to here. Yes, it's dangerous to wrestle a 300 lb. man. But, if said man isn't instigating the wrestling, then who's fault is it that you're in that situation? Is it normal for 5+ officers to surround a guy for selling cigarettes? Is there something more productive they could be doing?

Like I said, I understand the use of deadly force is needed, and that includes a suspect with a bat or lead pipe. But, I'm referring to cases where a suspect had a wallet or a cell phone.

If you think you'll need backup, then you wait for backup. Don't pull a suspect over until you're comfortable that it won't escalate into having to use deadly force.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:24 am    Post subject:

ContagiousInspiration wrote:
Use of force in the Kelly Thomas case?
Cops never forced to take a day off after they, 6 of them, murdered a man by beating and tasing him to death under public transportation cameras...
Two of 6 charged...

That case was proof the blue line is too powerful and too corrupt.. If I was a cop I would have been outspoken in my need for those men to all face justice. But the blue line doesn't allow a fellow cop to speak up.


That case reminds me of Oscar Grant shooting at the Fruitvale Bart station.
The BART police officers there that night would've probably walked free without jail-time if it weren't for the camera phones recording.

Once got a ticket from a highway patrolman for speeding. He said, "this ticket isn't just for what you did today, but it's for the many times in the past you speeded and nobody was around to write you a ticket".
Of course I was offended that he assumed I chronically break traffic laws, but I'm used to it since I'm a young African-American in a nice, fast car.

I think the same thought process should be applied to police officers caught on tape using unjustified, deadly force. Their sentencing should be harsher than if a civilian does a comparable crime. They are in a position of power, and for every one incident caught on tape it's likely there are several others incidents (maybe not resulting in death) of prejudicial, corrupt, or immoral law enforcement for that individual police officer.

Lock up, the "bad" law enforcement individuals and throw away the key. If that means good cops will have to think twice about the pluses and minuses of using deadly force, good! If it discourages mavericks from joining a squad for "the excitement", good!
Protecting and serving civilians while enforcing the law equally and fairly to everyone should be all that matters. If a police officer doesn't think that's a practical approach to the job, I don't want them wearing a badge (just my personal opinion).
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:30 am    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
Lakers2001 wrote:


No, you have no ideal. Unarmed does not mean harmless or you are not allowed to use deadly force. For example a subject armed with a pipe or ball bat.. I do not have to use less lethal means to subdue him. Sure I could always go for my baton or Taser, but if those fail i'm in trouble. A ball bat to the skull or vital part of the body is deadly force. Also another area the general public is not aware is a term "disparity in force". I would be foolish to wrestle a 6'6 300 pound man. Yes I can draw down on him and with verbal commands tell him to stop etc... He charges, I can fire and yes that’s justified if it ends up resulting in death. Now there is a multitude of factors before we even start talking about using deadly force from a officers stand point. Not every situation is that blk and white. Most of time there will be more officer presence when confronting subjects who display violate behavior (assuming this is in the form of a 911 call). Yet there are situations that can come out of nowhere such as traffic stops, public contacts etc. Its 3am in the morning and you pull over some drunk who wants to fight and he's 3 times your size then what? Oh yeah you are some state trooper wayyy out in the middle of nowhere (so your backup is prob 15-20 mins away? I am done with this debate because it’s a waste of time to argue with people that already have an "I hate the police attitude".


You've highlighted scenarios that include suspects with a lot more violent means than the cases we're referring to here. Yes, it's dangerous to wrestle a 300 lb. man. But, if said man isn't instigating the wrestling, then who's fault is it that you're in that situation? Is it normal for 5+ officers to surround a guy for selling cigarettes? Is there something more productive they could be doing?

Like I said, I understand the use of deadly force is needed, and that includes a suspect with a bat or lead pipe. But, I'm referring to cases where a suspect had a wallet or a cell phone.

If you think you'll need backup, then you wait for backup. Don't pull a suspect over until you're comfortable that it won't escalate into having to use deadly force.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:49 am    Post subject:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=147&v=0UjpmT5noto

<sigh> more romper room f*c*ry with local government and public safety d-bags ...
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:13 am    Post subject:

the association wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=147&v=0UjpmT5noto

<sigh> more romper room f*c*ry with local government and public safety d-bags ...




Americas War on the Poor :

Cheerfully shafting the insolvent since 1983 - Over 25 million served...
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:27 am    Post subject:

the association wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=147&v=0UjpmT5noto

<sigh> more romper room f*c*ry with local government and public safety d-bags ...



Wow, just wow!
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:36 am    Post subject:

And Let's not forget that Pennsylvania Judge who got caught selling kids to private prisons so he could make money:

Quote:
A Pennsylvania judge has been convicted of selling children into prison for cash. The former judge, 61-year old Mark Ciavarella Jr, was sentenced to 30 years for taking money under the table from a developer and jailing thousands of adults and juveniles, some as young as ten. Ciavarella made more than a million dollars selling people into incarceration.


Imprisioned For Profit
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:45 pm    Post subject:

Police make thousands of stop a day. The number that turn into fatalities is minimal compared to the number of police interactions with the public.

The shoot first and ask questions later, protect self instantly instead of weighing options IMO is bad policing and not common practice.

There are confrontations that call for deadly or force escalation immediately. No officer is required to take uncalled for risk, play super cop.

I understand your position Laker2001 but think you may act to quckly. I ask you, have you ever had to use deadly or escalated force?

Eric Gardner, Oscar Grant, Kelly Thomas are a few examples, there are many more, that cause the public to distrust the police.

The miniscule number of times officers are actually found guilty is another reason public faith is tested.

Policing is not for everyone. I don't have statistics but I believe most of the shootings are municipal. That leads me to believe more effort is needed to weed potential threats to citizens at the local level.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:13 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
Police make thousands of stop a day. The number that turn into fatalities is minimal compared to the number of police interactions with the public.

The shoot first and ask questions later, protect self instantly instead of weighing options IMO is bad policing and not common practice.

There are confrontations that call for deadly or force escalation immediately. No officer is required to take uncalled for risk, play super cop.

I understand your position Laker2001 but think you may act to quckly. I ask you, have you ever had to use deadly or escalated force?

Eric Gardner, Oscar Grant, Kelly Thomas are a few examples, there are many more, that cause the public to distrust the police.

The miniscule number of times officers are actually found guilty is another reason public faith is tested.

Policing is not for everyone. I don't have statistics but I believe most of the shootings are municipal. That leads me to believe more effort is needed to weed potential threats to citizens at the local level.


And it’s not the Police. I haven’t really looked into the stats(they are sometimes politically skrewed) that crime has decreased in this country as someone said earlier, However I will tell you this from a ground level since the melt down in 2008 there is a part of America that will never recover and or further behind. It’s the lower class neiborhoods (minority areas) were from a real world feel crime seems to be growing. Mostly in the form of theft and robbery the stats may be right... MURDERS are down. Funny how the media reports things a certain way and the public eat it up. Once gain Thiers two Americas … white and black and if you don’t want to believe that then your head is stuck so far up...
On a related note to “policing” in these areas it does create a more hostile environment because the perception of trust among law enforcement and the citizens. I can show you communities where its wealthy middle class or higher(less minorities) and the policing these areas are just another wonderful day at the office. On the other hand I can show you places where it’s a war zone. The problem starts economically not with the police as we are only a reflection of the government.

Officers are not found guilty most of the time because they are following policy and or within the legal definition of reasonable force. In the Eric Garner situation I actually blame the New York Police Department and that cites old outdated way of policing/ policy. They had numbers and If thats my department with a man the size of Eric Gardner we would have at least deployed a tazer or OC. You never want to have to swarm a person (unless all other options have failed) and risks the situation which happened DEATH or INJURY. Now do I blame the actually officers involved.. NO they were working with what the NEW YORK POLICE DEPARTMENT gave them, nothing but hands and arms they next level of force they could have used was their side arms as batons in the group situation is never a good look( see Rodney king). With a city like new York it puzzles me they aren’t issued tasers. I can imagine the libs their shot that proposal down and now want to bash the department because they had to use the tactics to subdue that caused death.

Who's shooting 1st and ask questions later??? I never suggested nothing of the sort. See you would know ( as cop) there are two types of force situations

Planned use of force examples; Eric Gardner

Spontaneous use of force examples; Michael Brown/ mentally distb kid in the video

Both can result in death; however the ladder is more likely to escalate to deadly. With planned you have more options and time.

another thing I'd like to add to the anti-gun supposedly save "black lives" crowd... You do nothing but support the very same laws that are designed to keep blacks in thier place. Classic example GUN LAWS(or control) in its simplist form is actually a old jim crow era of disarming blacks. In todays times its dressed up as "gun control". Ever wonder why states with high minorty populations have the strict laws?
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non-player zealot
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:02 am    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:

I haven't done any research, I wonder. How many Black officers have shot unarmed Black men?


That would be an interesting answer and a lot of conclusions would be drawn from it. There's a statistic for anything, but sometimes the question is like, "How many grains of sand are on Laguna Beach?" This is one of those kind of questions. I wonder how you would even go about finding that number.

On its face, you'd have to go in assuming it's much, much lower than unarmed black men shot by white, ethnic white (as in Italian-American) and/or brown cops (as in Officer Alvarez from Ft. Lauderdale). I posted that scene from Jersey late last year where a black man was killed by a black cop, but the cop went out of his mind trying to get the guy to follow orders and told him he was gonna die if he didn't. He actually had to affect Denzel's dramatic voice to deal with this person. Other than that video, I can't even think of another that I recall involving a black cop and black citizen (either mistaken subject or actual suspect).
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:10 am    Post subject:

Lakers2001 wrote:
another thing I'd like to add to the anti-gun supposedly save "black lives" crowd... You do nothing but support the very same laws that are designed to keep blacks in thier place. Classic example GUN LAWS(or control) in its simplist form is actually a old jim crow era of disarming blacks. In todays times its dressed up as "gun control". Ever wonder why states with high minorty populations have the strict laws?


Okay, that's just a flat-out weird argument. Gun control laws are Jim Crow laws in disguise? And your proof lies in your belief that states with larger black populations tend to have stricter gun laws? Riiiight. Your premise is probably wrong, because there were some strict gun control laws in states and cities with low minority populations. But let's skip over that problem. So you're saying that, in places like the District of Columbia where the black population has a lot of influence in politics, the people are voting to disarm themselves as part of a clandestine plot by the white folks? That makes perfect sense, in a Facebook/YouTube sort of way.
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