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Lakerpark
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Joined: 09 Nov 2002
Posts: 2117
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 Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 6:05 am Post subject: Starters vs S(cr)ubs |
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With all this talk about Ryan Kelly, Sacre, Jeremy Lin etc, it got me thinking...
It is my belief that the good teams have a clear division between the starters and the subs. The starters are clearly a level or two above the subs and the subs know their place.
Part of the problem with the Lakers, whether intentional or not, is that the starters are not clearly better than the subs. And thus they have been completely interchangeable. That's just a lack of talent.
Maybe it's just me, but I get a vibe that Jeremy Lin really has a hard time accepting a role off the bench. Almost like he (or maybe his fans) feel he is being disrespected or discriminated against. Clarkson is clearly the Lakers future and is being groomed to be the starting PG, and he has performed well and has shown he deserves the opportunity. It's not like when Darius Morris was starting, he sucked but the Lakers didn't have much else to try.
Sacre knows he belongs on the bench and accepts his role and is a great team player cheering his teammates on. And he's ready to step in when needed.
Kelly doesn't belong on the bench and probably belongs deep on the bench until he proves otherwise.
I think Ronnie Price fits the role of a good sub by being ready to play and also accepting his role on the bench. But BS created this "competition" that made JLin feel persecuted.
The sub/scrubs play an important part of any team by giving the starters someone to practice against. And scrubs shouldn't be taking up too much of the cap space.
I think, like others here have said, that Jeremy Lin would make a great back up point guard for the Lakers in the future if he would accept a reasonable contract.
Boozer had a problem at first going to the bench but seemed to accept it soon after. We never heard Boozer fans complain either.
I personally liked the way Jordan Farmar played off the bench last season...at least when he was healthy. I wonder what happened to him this year on the Clippers that he didn't do so well. |
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DShotMaker1824
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Joined: 16 Feb 2012
Posts: 8769
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| Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 6:07 am Post subject: Re: Starters vs S(cr)ubs |
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| Lakerpark wrote: | With all this talk about Ryan Kelly, Sacre, Jeremy Lin etc, it got me thinking...
It is my belief that the good teams have a clear division between the starters and the subs. The starters are clearly a level or two above the subs and the subs know their place.
Part of the problem with the Lakers, whether intentional or not, is that the starters are not clearly better than the subs. And thus they have been completely interchangeable. That's just a lack of talent.
Maybe it's just me, but I get a vibe that Jeremy Lin really has a hard time accepting a role off the bench. Almost like he (or maybe his fans) feel he is being disrespected or discriminated against. Clarkson is clearly the Lakers future and is being groomed to be the starting PG, and he has performed well and has shown he deserves the opportunity. It's not like when Darius Morris was starting, he sucked but the Lakers didn't have much else to try.
Sacre knows he belongs on the bench and accepts his role and is a great team player cheering his teammates on. And he's ready to step in when needed.
Kelly doesn't belong on the bench and probably belongs deep on the bench until he proves otherwise.
I think Ronnie Price fits the role of a good sub by being ready to play and also accepting his role on the bench. But BS created this "competition" that made JLin feel persecuted.
The sub/scrubs play an important part of any team by giving the starters someone to practice against. And scrubs shouldn't be taking up too much of the cap space.
I think, like others here have said, that Jeremy Lin would make a great back up point guard for the Lakers in the future if he would accept a reasonable contract.
Boozer had a problem at first going to the bench but seemed to accept it soon after. We never heard Boozer fans complain either.
I personally liked the way Jordan Farmar played off the bench last season...at least when he was healthy. I wonder what happened to him this year on the Clippers that he didn't do so well. |
That's why we've dropped 50 games.
_________________
"Through the legs to the left, through the legs to the right, we don't run them Laker plays, we just Kobe fadeaway..."
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Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
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| Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 6:11 am Post subject: Re: Starters vs S(cr)ubs |
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| Lakerpark wrote: | | Part of the problem with the Lakers, whether intentional or not, is that the starters are not clearly better than the subs. And thus they have been completely interchangeable. That's just a lack of talent. |
Part of the problem is lack of talent? What an original observation. |
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a2j1m
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Joined: 06 May 2013
Posts: 3734
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| Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 7:06 am Post subject: |
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A lot of problems...
1. Lack of superstars
2. Lack of overall talent/depth
3. Lack of a solid rotation
4. Lack of size
We don't have one guy aside Kobe who is a true starting player. |
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defense
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Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 39532
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| Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:27 am Post subject: |
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No need to analyze
We suck!
As a staff, label and record company
Last edited by defense on Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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KobeDunk
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Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 26849
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| Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| everyone on the Lakers is a scrub, except Kobe. |
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activeverb
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
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| Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: Starters vs S(cr)ubs |
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| Lakerpark wrote: | | It is my belief that the good teams have a clear division between the starters and the subs. The starters are clearly a level or two above the subs and the subs know their place.. |
I wouldn't agree with that. Often the first guy off the bench is better than some of the starters. And I think lots of subs on good and bad teams think they should be starting. They don't "know their place," or accept their teammates are better, as much as they have a clear role that they accept as professionals.
I think it's more accurate to say that good teams have good players, and clear roles.
We suck for a simple reason: We lack talent. |
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thisissami
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Joined: 14 Dec 2014
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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I am a longtime Jeremy Lin fan since before he joined the NBA. I'm not asian (I'm middle eastern ethnically), and was into him because he played at an amazing level of basketball, despite everybody always hating on him. It's been awesome seeing his career soar after a chance game in the NBA summer league 4 years ago (where he outplayed John Wall, the then #1 draft pick), and then again a year and a bit later when he had his "Linsanity" thing take place in NYC.
I haven't really chimed in on these forums often because there's plenty of Lin fans here continually posting (often to the dismay of longer term Laker fans). This post was pretty respectfully written and posed a question, so I thought I'd write a lengthy response on my opinions. It's lengthy, but I hope you'll take the time to read it. I'm not trying to instigate anything - just sharing my honest opinion.
Jeremy, from my view (as somebody who has watched most of his games and really seen him through his downs and ups), has been treated terribly by most people in the NBA. Most of his coaches & GMs have, in my opinion, written him off immediately simply because of his race. I know that this is a big claim to make, but it is backed by years of the same exact situations happening again and again. These situations can mainly be summarized as:
1) Jeremy plays really well.
2) Those games are completely ignored as "a fluke".
(This is contrasted to what most PGs of the same competency experience - who happen to be largely black or white:
1) X plays really well.
2) When a bad game happens, it's labeled a "bad game" - not "the good games are a fluke". )
This happened when he was in high school (led his team to the division championship, absolutely no scholarship offers outside of Harvard). This happened when he was in college (played so well that other coaches of top schools praised him and was one of the finalists for the Bob Cousy Point Guard award - this is when I started following him), and was largely ignored by the NBA. He luckily had a breakout game against John Wall & the Wizards and got picked up. He jumped around and had another breakout at NYK, but the Knicks decided that his skill was a fluke, and completely ignored him.
In Houston is where it became especially apparent that Jeremy had a unique battle that most players don't. There was this cycle that took place where Jeremy (who was playing very well for the most part, even after Harden joined the team) would be benched as soon as he made one or two mistakes. This would be fine, except that it didn't happen for any other players. Other players were allowed to play through their mistakes, but not Jeremy. This happened time and time again, and of course (since we're all human), it had a negative effect on Jeremy's confidence. It's hard to keep up mental toughness when you can tell that you're being treated in a manner that nobody else is.
Conversely, when the team was really (bleep), Jeremy was brought back in to try and rectify the situation. Why? Because Jeremy has a team-first approach - he tries to get guys going, and tries to play proper basketball (the way that the Spurs or Hawks play the game). Often times, the Rockets made huge runs from behind when Jeremy came in, because Jeremy was actually a capable player.
What was most difficult for me to see as a fan (beyond him being mistreated this way) was the way McHale treated him in the press conferences. Any time the team lost and Jeremy had made some kind of mistake in the 4th quarter, McHale specifically pointed Jeremy out and used him as a scapegoat. Seriously. More or less every single time. Any time that the team won and Jeremy had something to do with it (orchestrating a beautiful offense, setting people up, having a breakout scoring night, etc.) - there was nary a peep about Jeremy. Just about the team as a whole.
As time went on in Houston, Jeremy got replaced as a starter by Beverly (despite the fact that Jeremy's stats were significantly better than Beverly, and despite the fact that their defense was roughly on par - at least according to statistics). Despite coming off the bench and playing less minutes, Jeremy still had better stats. McHale began continually praising Beverly, while making negative remarks about Jeremy. This was his daily situation in Houston. He was playing behind a statistically inferior player, and to me - the only reason for this is racism.
When this past summer came around, I was ecstatic. Jeremy was going to be going to the Lakers, where the GM (unlike Houston's GM) was singing praises about Lin. Lin himself was smiling in all his videos & photos for the first time in a while, and it was clear that he was happy to get out of Houston. However, as the season began, it was pretty clear that Scott was not any better than McHale. The situation to me, as a fan, seems more or less the same. Scott refused to start Jeremy in the off season (choosing a 3rd stringer scrub instead), and it took Magic publicly tweeting about it to get Scott to start Lin.
Even then, Scott would not let Jeremy play his game at all. Scott had an amazing pick-n-roll player who was team-oriented and had beautiful chemistry with Ed Davis... so what does he do? Never let Jeremy & Ed play together. (smart move coach). On top of that, he too did not let Jeremy play through his mistakes.
The similarities with Houston continued... Jeremy became the backup pointguard to a 3rd stringer. Jeremy was playing far less minutes than Price, while simultaneously putting together a far better stat sheet. Yes - Jeremy was upset about this. How could he not be? He was coming off the bench when it was clear to a) anybody watching, and b) anybody looking at statistics that this should not have been the case. On top of that, Scott was singing praises of his "head of the snake", repeating the exact same stuff that McHale was saying about Beverly (this guy is a defensive genius, ladidadida). This was used as an excuse to have Jeremy come off the bench, despite the fact that Price really wasn't that much better than Jeremy defensively (again - statistics, not eye test). With Scott it was so terrible that people here on this very forum that are not Jeremy fans were making fun of him and his stupidity.
With Clarkson, this is less of an issue, as Clarkson is both doing well & is part of the Lakers future plans. However, I don't think Jeremy is upset that he is coming off the bench, so much as he is just upset with how terribly he has been treated in his time in the NBA. He was expecting his time at the Lakers to be the first time where he wouldn't be dealing with racism from his team, but that just never panned out.
Jeremy has long put his teams above himself. He has done every single thing that every coach of his has asked of him, even when he knows it makes no sense. Jeremy knows it makes no sense not to utilize your players for their strengths, but has still done everything that Scott has asked of him. Jeremy could have in his time at the Lakers or Houston come out publicly and complained about how he has been treated (like many other players in the NBA do), but he has not. He's been respectful of his coaches & teams, despite having a much better case for complaining than almost any other player that has ever complained.
So Lakerpark - that is my long-winded answer to you. Because he is (in some capacity) bottling all his (inevitable) resentment inside himself, he will appear to be unhappy when on the bench. I can't imagine what kind of battle might be going on in his mind. Except for D'antoni, he never had a coach in the NBA who believed in him. He's only had coaches that count his successes as flukes, and write him off completely.
Next year, I personally am 99.99999% sure (because you can never be 100% sure) that he will go to a team based entirely off their coach. He is not after money. He is after a championship. And he knows that the only win that he can make that happen is to play for a team that is team-oriented, and for a coach that is team-oriented and objective. He will play for a coach who knows how to take advantage of his players' strengths, and for a coach who doesn't care what race he is. And when this happens, his team will flourish - because Jeremy puts his team first before himself. That is how a team of scrubs in NYK had an amazing run, beating some of the top teams in the NBA. That is how a team of scrubs in Houston also played some of the best team basketball that I've seen (by "team of scrubs" I mean the preseason team before Harden joined in Jeremy's first season at Houston. Check out those games if you want to see what Jeremy's capable of post-NYK when given the reigns and team-oriented players).
Whew - hope you guys don't mind the really long post. I haven't posted here often, but I've wanted to share my opinion for quite some time. Again - everything I've shared here is my own observations after watching Jeremy's career for the past 5 years. Hope you are all having a lovely day!! |
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mnstrdnk
Starting Rotation
Joined: 02 Jul 2008
Posts: 810
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| Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| thisissami wrote: | I am a longtime Jeremy Lin fan since before he joined the NBA. I'm not asian (I'm middle eastern ethnically), and was into him because he played at an amazing level of basketball, despite everybody always hating on him. It's been awesome seeing his career soar after a chance game in the NBA summer league 4 years ago (where he outplayed John Wall, the then #1 draft pick), and then again a year and a bit later when he had his "Linsanity" thing take place in NYC.
I haven't really chimed in on these forums often because there's plenty of Lin fans here continually posting (often to the dismay of longer term Laker fans). This post was pretty respectfully written and posed a question, so I thought I'd write a lengthy response on my opinions. It's lengthy, but I hope you'll take the time to read it. I'm not trying to instigate anything - just sharing my honest opinion.
Jeremy, from my view (as somebody who has watched most of his games and really seen him through his downs and ups), has been treated terribly by most people in the NBA. Most of his coaches & GMs have, in my opinion, written him off immediately simply because of his race. I know that this is a big claim to make, but it is backed by years of the same exact situations happening again and again. These situations can mainly be summarized as:
1) Jeremy plays really well.
2) Those games are completely ignored as "a fluke".
(This is contrasted to what most PGs of the same competency experience - who happen to be largely black or white:
1) X plays really well.
2) When a bad game happens, it's labeled a "bad game" - not "the good games are a fluke". )
This happened when he was in high school (led his team to the division championship, absolutely no scholarship offers outside of Harvard). This happened when he was in college (played so well that other coaches of top schools praised him and was one of the finalists for the Bob Cousy Point Guard award - this is when I started following him), and was largely ignored by the NBA. He luckily had a breakout game against John Wall & the Wizards and got picked up. He jumped around and had another breakout at NYK, but the Knicks decided that his skill was a fluke, and completely ignored him.
In Houston is where it became especially apparent that Jeremy had a unique battle that most players don't. There was this cycle that took place where Jeremy (who was playing very well for the most part, even after Harden joined the team) would be benched as soon as he made one or two mistakes. This would be fine, except that it didn't happen for any other players. Other players were allowed to play through their mistakes, but not Jeremy. This happened time and time again, and of course (since we're all human), it had a negative effect on Jeremy's confidence. It's hard to keep up mental toughness when you can tell that you're being treated in a manner that nobody else is.
Conversely, when the team was really (bleep), Jeremy was brought back in to try and rectify the situation. Why? Because Jeremy has a team-first approach - he tries to get guys going, and tries to play proper basketball (the way that the Spurs or Hawks play the game). Often times, the Rockets made huge runs from behind when Jeremy came in, because Jeremy was actually a capable player.
What was most difficult for me to see as a fan (beyond him being mistreated this way) was the way McHale treated him in the press conferences. Any time the team lost and Jeremy had made some kind of mistake in the 4th quarter, McHale specifically pointed Jeremy out and used him as a scapegoat. Seriously. More or less every single time. Any time that the team won and Jeremy had something to do with it (orchestrating a beautiful offense, setting people up, having a breakout scoring night, etc.) - there was nary a peep about Jeremy. Just about the team as a whole.
As time went on in Houston, Jeremy got replaced as a starter by Beverly (despite the fact that Jeremy's stats were significantly better than Beverly, and despite the fact that their defense was roughly on par - at least according to statistics). Despite coming off the bench and playing less minutes, Jeremy still had better stats. McHale began continually praising Beverly, while making negative remarks about Jeremy. This was his daily situation in Houston. He was playing behind a statistically inferior player, and to me - the only reason for this is racism.
When this past summer came around, I was ecstatic. Jeremy was going to be going to the Lakers, where the GM (unlike Houston's GM) was singing praises about Lin. Lin himself was smiling in all his videos & photos for the first time in a while, and it was clear that he was happy to get out of Houston. However, as the season began, it was pretty clear that Scott was not any better than McHale. The situation to me, as a fan, seems more or less the same. Scott refused to start Jeremy in the off season (choosing a 3rd stringer scrub instead), and it took Magic publicly tweeting about it to get Scott to start Lin.
Even then, Scott would not let Jeremy play his game at all. Scott had an amazing pick-n-roll player who was team-oriented and had beautiful chemistry with Ed Davis... so what does he do? Never let Jeremy & Ed play together. (smart move coach). On top of that, he too did not let Jeremy play through his mistakes.
The similarities with Houston continued... Jeremy became the backup pointguard to a 3rd stringer. Jeremy was playing far less minutes than Price, while simultaneously putting together a far better stat sheet. Yes - Jeremy was upset about this. How could he not be? He was coming off the bench when it was clear to a) anybody watching, and b) anybody looking at statistics that this should not have been the case. On top of that, Scott was singing praises of his "head of the snake", repeating the exact same stuff that McHale was saying about Beverly (this guy is a defensive genius, ladidadida). This was used as an excuse to have Jeremy come off the bench, despite the fact that Price really wasn't that much better than Jeremy defensively (again - statistics, not eye test). With Scott it was so terrible that people here on this very forum that are not Jeremy fans were making fun of him and his stupidity.
With Clarkson, this is less of an issue, as Clarkson is both doing well & is part of the Lakers future plans. However, I don't think Jeremy is upset that he is coming off the bench, so much as he is just upset with how terribly he has been treated in his time in the NBA. He was expecting his time at the Lakers to be the first time where he wouldn't be dealing with racism from his team, but that just never panned out.
Jeremy has long put his teams above himself. He has done every single thing that every coach of his has asked of him, even when he knows it makes no sense. Jeremy knows it makes no sense not to utilize your players for their strengths, but has still done everything that Scott has asked of him. Jeremy could have in his time at the Lakers or Houston come out publicly and complained about how he has been treated (like many other players in the NBA do), but he has not. He's been respectful of his coaches & teams, despite having a much better case for complaining than almost any other player that has ever complained.
So Lakerpark - that is my long-winded answer to you. Because he is (in some capacity) bottling all his (inevitable) resentment inside himself, he will appear to be unhappy when on the bench. I can't imagine what kind of battle might be going on in his mind. Except for D'antoni, he never had a coach in the NBA who believed in him. He's only had coaches that count his successes as flukes, and write him off completely.
Next year, I personally am 99.99999% sure (because you can never be 100% sure) that he will go to a team based entirely off their coach. He is not after money. He is after a championship. And he knows that the only win that he can make that happen is to play for a team that is team-oriented, and for a coach that is team-oriented and objective. He will play for a coach who knows how to take advantage of his players' strengths, and for a coach who doesn't care what race he is. And when this happens, his team will flourish - because Jeremy puts his team first before himself. That is how a team of scrubs in NYK had an amazing run, beating some of the top teams in the NBA. That is how a team of scrubs in Houston also played some of the best team basketball that I've seen (by "team of scrubs" I mean the preseason team before Harden joined in Jeremy's first season at Houston. Check out those games if you want to see what Jeremy's capable of post-NYK when given the reigns and team-oriented players).
Whew - hope you guys don't mind the really long post. I haven't posted here often, but I've wanted to share my opinion for quite some time. Again - everything I've shared here is my own observations after watching Jeremy's career for the past 5 years. Hope you are all having a lovely day!! |
Great pos . Good read |
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mnstrdnk
Starting Rotation
Joined: 02 Jul 2008
Posts: 810
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| Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| thisissami wrote: | I am a longtime Jeremy Lin fan since before he joined the NBA. I'm not asian (I'm middle eastern ethnically), and was into him because he played at an amazing level of basketball, despite everybody always hating on him. It's been awesome seeing his career soar after a chance game in the NBA summer league 4 years ago (where he outplayed John Wall, the then #1 draft pick), and then again a year and a bit later when he had his "Linsanity" thing take place in NYC.
I haven't really chimed in on these forums often because there's plenty of Lin fans here continually posting (often to the dismay of longer term Laker fans). This post was pretty respectfully written and posed a question, so I thought I'd write a lengthy response on my opinions. It's lengthy, but I hope you'll take the time to read it. I'm not trying to instigate anything - just sharing my honest opinion.
Jeremy, from my view (as somebody who has watched most of his games and really seen him through his downs and ups), has been treated terribly by most people in the NBA. Most of his coaches & GMs have, in my opinion, written him off immediately simply because of his race. I know that this is a big claim to make, but it is backed by years of the same exact situations happening again and again. These situations can mainly be summarized as:
1) Jeremy plays really well.
2) Those games are completely ignored as "a fluke".
(This is contrasted to what most PGs of the same competency experience - who happen to be largely black or white:
1) X plays really well.
2) When a bad game happens, it's labeled a "bad game" - not "the good games are a fluke". )
This happened when he was in high school (led his team to the division championship, absolutely no scholarship offers outside of Harvard). This happened when he was in college (played so well that other coaches of top schools praised him and was one of the finalists for the Bob Cousy Point Guard award - this is when I started following him), and was largely ignored by the NBA. He luckily had a breakout game against John Wall & the Wizards and got picked up. He jumped around and had another breakout at NYK, but the Knicks decided that his skill was a fluke, and completely ignored him.
In Houston is where it became especially apparent that Jeremy had a unique battle that most players don't. There was this cycle that took place where Jeremy (who was playing very well for the most part, even after Harden joined the team) would be benched as soon as he made one or two mistakes. This would be fine, except that it didn't happen for any other players. Other players were allowed to play through their mistakes, but not Jeremy. This happened time and time again, and of course (since we're all human), it had a negative effect on Jeremy's confidence. It's hard to keep up mental toughness when you can tell that you're being treated in a manner that nobody else is.
Conversely, when the team was really (bleep), Jeremy was brought back in to try and rectify the situation. Why? Because Jeremy has a team-first approach - he tries to get guys going, and tries to play proper basketball (the way that the Spurs or Hawks play the game). Often times, the Rockets made huge runs from behind when Jeremy came in, because Jeremy was actually a capable player.
What was most difficult for me to see as a fan (beyond him being mistreated this way) was the way McHale treated him in the press conferences. Any time the team lost and Jeremy had made some kind of mistake in the 4th quarter, McHale specifically pointed Jeremy out and used him as a scapegoat. Seriously. More or less every single time. Any time that the team won and Jeremy had something to do with it (orchestrating a beautiful offense, setting people up, having a breakout scoring night, etc.) - there was nary a peep about Jeremy. Just about the team as a whole.
As time went on in Houston, Jeremy got replaced as a starter by Beverly (despite the fact that Jeremy's stats were significantly better than Beverly, and despite the fact that their defense was roughly on par - at least according to statistics). Despite coming off the bench and playing less minutes, Jeremy still had better stats. McHale began continually praising Beverly, while making negative remarks about Jeremy. This was his daily situation in Houston. He was playing behind a statistically inferior player, and to me - the only reason for this is racism.
When this past summer came around, I was ecstatic. Jeremy was going to be going to the Lakers, where the GM (unlike Houston's GM) was singing praises about Lin. Lin himself was smiling in all his videos & photos for the first time in a while, and it was clear that he was happy to get out of Houston. However, as the season began, it was pretty clear that Scott was not any better than McHale. The situation to me, as a fan, seems more or less the same. Scott refused to start Jeremy in the off season (choosing a 3rd stringer scrub instead), and it took Magic publicly tweeting about it to get Scott to start Lin.
Even then, Scott would not let Jeremy play his game at all. Scott had an amazing pick-n-roll player who was team-oriented and had beautiful chemistry with Ed Davis... so what does he do? Never let Jeremy & Ed play together. (smart move coach). On top of that, he too did not let Jeremy play through his mistakes.
The similarities with Houston continued... Jeremy became the backup pointguard to a 3rd stringer. Jeremy was playing far less minutes than Price, while simultaneously putting together a far better stat sheet. Yes - Jeremy was upset about this. How could he not be? He was coming off the bench when it was clear to a) anybody watching, and b) anybody looking at statistics that this should not have been the case. On top of that, Scott was singing praises of his "head of the snake", repeating the exact same stuff that McHale was saying about Beverly (this guy is a defensive genius, ladidadida). This was used as an excuse to have Jeremy come off the bench, despite the fact that Price really wasn't that much better than Jeremy defensively (again - statistics, not eye test). With Scott it was so terrible that people here on this very forum that are not Jeremy fans were making fun of him and his stupidity.
With Clarkson, this is less of an issue, as Clarkson is both doing well & is part of the Lakers future plans. However, I don't think Jeremy is upset that he is coming off the bench, so much as he is just upset with how terribly he has been treated in his time in the NBA. He was expecting his time at the Lakers to be the first time where he wouldn't be dealing with racism from his team, but that just never panned out.
Jeremy has long put his teams above himself. He has done every single thing that every coach of his has asked of him, even when he knows it makes no sense. Jeremy knows it makes no sense not to utilize your players for their strengths, but has still done everything that Scott has asked of him. Jeremy could have in his time at the Lakers or Houston come out publicly and complained about how he has been treated (like many other players in the NBA do), but he has not. He's been respectful of his coaches & teams, despite having a much better case for complaining than almost any other player that has ever complained.
So Lakerpark - that is my long-winded answer to you. Because he is (in some capacity) bottling all his (inevitable) resentment inside himself, he will appear to be unhappy when on the bench. I can't imagine what kind of battle might be going on in his mind. Except for D'antoni, he never had a coach in the NBA who believed in him. He's only had coaches that count his successes as flukes, and write him off completely.
Next year, I personally am 99.99999% sure (because you can never be 100% sure) that he will go to a team based entirely off their coach. He is not after money. He is after a championship. And he knows that the only win that he can make that happen is to play for a team that is team-oriented, and for a coach that is team-oriented and objective. He will play for a coach who knows how to take advantage of his players' strengths, and for a coach who doesn't care what race he is. And when this happens, his team will flourish - because Jeremy puts his team first before himself. That is how a team of scrubs in NYK had an amazing run, beating some of the top teams in the NBA. That is how a team of scrubs in Houston also played some of the best team basketball that I've seen (by "team of scrubs" I mean the preseason team before Harden joined in Jeremy's first season at Houston. Check out those games if you want to see what Jeremy's capable of post-NYK when given the reigns and team-oriented players).
Whew - hope you guys don't mind the really long post. I haven't posted here often, but I've wanted to share my opinion for quite some time. Again - everything I've shared here is my own observations after watching Jeremy's career for the past 5 years. Hope you are all having a lovely day!! |
Great post . Good read
Last edited by mnstrdnk on Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:44 am; edited 1 time in total |
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The Shadow King
Star Player
Joined: 02 Apr 2011
Posts: 4363
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| defense wrote: | No need to analyze
We suck!
As a staff, label and record company |
Excellent "Hit 'Em Up" reference, sir.
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Lakers, today. Lakers, tomorrow. Lakers, forever. |
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The Shadow King
Star Player
Joined: 02 Apr 2011
Posts: 4363
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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No assortment of players on this team (even with everyone on the roster 100% healthy) is good enough to go anywhere that will satisfy this fanbase. We need a great draft and a great offseason to be even a shadow of what we were 5 years ago.
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Lakers, today. Lakers, tomorrow. Lakers, forever. |
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artoo
Sixth Man
Joined: 18 Nov 2008
Posts: 67
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| Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| thisissami wrote: | I am a longtime Jeremy Lin fan since before he joined the NBA. I'm not asian (I'm middle eastern ethnically), and was into him because he played at an amazing level of basketball, despite everybody always hating on him. It's been awesome seeing his career soar after a chance game in the NBA summer league 4 years ago (where he outplayed John Wall, the then #1 draft pick), and then again a year and a bit later when he had his "Linsanity" thing take place in NYC.
I haven't really chimed in on these forums often because there's plenty of Lin fans here continually posting (often to the dismay of longer term Laker fans). This post was pretty respectfully written and posed a question, so I thought I'd write a lengthy response on my opinions. It's lengthy, but I hope you'll take the time to read it. I'm not trying to instigate anything - just sharing my honest opinion.
Jeremy, from my view (as somebody who has watched most of his games and really seen him through his downs and ups), has been treated terribly by most people in the NBA. Most of his coaches & GMs have, in my opinion, written him off immediately simply because of his race. I know that this is a big claim to make, but it is backed by years of the same exact situations happening again and again. These situations can mainly be summarized as:
1) Jeremy plays really well.
2) Those games are completely ignored as "a fluke".
(This is contrasted to what most PGs of the same competency experience - who happen to be largely black or white:
1) X plays really well.
2) When a bad game happens, it's labeled a "bad game" - not "the good games are a fluke". )
This happened when he was in high school (led his team to the division championship, absolutely no scholarship offers outside of Harvard). This happened when he was in college (played so well that other coaches of top schools praised him and was one of the finalists for the Bob Cousy Point Guard award - this is when I started following him), and was largely ignored by the NBA. He luckily had a breakout game against John Wall & the Wizards and got picked up. He jumped around and had another breakout at NYK, but the Knicks decided that his skill was a fluke, and completely ignored him.
In Houston is where it became especially apparent that Jeremy had a unique battle that most players don't. There was this cycle that took place where Jeremy (who was playing very well for the most part, even after Harden joined the team) would be benched as soon as he made one or two mistakes. This would be fine, except that it didn't happen for any other players. Other players were allowed to play through their mistakes, but not Jeremy. This happened time and time again, and of course (since we're all human), it had a negative effect on Jeremy's confidence. It's hard to keep up mental toughness when you can tell that you're being treated in a manner that nobody else is.
Conversely, when the team was really (bleep), Jeremy was brought back in to try and rectify the situation. Why? Because Jeremy has a team-first approach - he tries to get guys going, and tries to play proper basketball (the way that the Spurs or Hawks play the game). Often times, the Rockets made huge runs from behind when Jeremy came in, because Jeremy was actually a capable player.
What was most difficult for me to see as a fan (beyond him being mistreated this way) was the way McHale treated him in the press conferences. Any time the team lost and Jeremy had made some kind of mistake in the 4th quarter, McHale specifically pointed Jeremy out and used him as a scapegoat. Seriously. More or less every single time. Any time that the team won and Jeremy had something to do with it (orchestrating a beautiful offense, setting people up, having a breakout scoring night, etc.) - there was nary a peep about Jeremy. Just about the team as a whole.
As time went on in Houston, Jeremy got replaced as a starter by Beverly (despite the fact that Jeremy's stats were significantly better than Beverly, and despite the fact that their defense was roughly on par - at least according to statistics). Despite coming off the bench and playing less minutes, Jeremy still had better stats. McHale began continually praising Beverly, while making negative remarks about Jeremy. This was his daily situation in Houston. He was playing behind a statistically inferior player, and to me - the only reason for this is racism.
When this past summer came around, I was ecstatic. Jeremy was going to be going to the Lakers, where the GM (unlike Houston's GM) was singing praises about Lin. Lin himself was smiling in all his videos & photos for the first time in a while, and it was clear that he was happy to get out of Houston. However, as the season began, it was pretty clear that Scott was not any better than McHale. The situation to me, as a fan, seems more or less the same. Scott refused to start Jeremy in the off season (choosing a 3rd stringer scrub instead), and it took Magic publicly tweeting about it to get Scott to start Lin.
Even then, Scott would not let Jeremy play his game at all. Scott had an amazing pick-n-roll player who was team-oriented and had beautiful chemistry with Ed Davis... so what does he do? Never let Jeremy & Ed play together. (smart move coach). On top of that, he too did not let Jeremy play through his mistakes.
The similarities with Houston continued... Jeremy became the backup pointguard to a 3rd stringer. Jeremy was playing far less minutes than Price, while simultaneously putting together a far better stat sheet. Yes - Jeremy was upset about this. How could he not be? He was coming off the bench when it was clear to a) anybody watching, and b) anybody looking at statistics that this should not have been the case. On top of that, Scott was singing praises of his "head of the snake", repeating the exact same stuff that McHale was saying about Beverly (this guy is a defensive genius, ladidadida). This was used as an excuse to have Jeremy come off the bench, despite the fact that Price really wasn't that much better than Jeremy defensively (again - statistics, not eye test). With Scott it was so terrible that people here on this very forum that are not Jeremy fans were making fun of him and his stupidity.
With Clarkson, this is less of an issue, as Clarkson is both doing well & is part of the Lakers future plans. However, I don't think Jeremy is upset that he is coming off the bench, so much as he is just upset with how terribly he has been treated in his time in the NBA. He was expecting his time at the Lakers to be the first time where he wouldn't be dealing with racism from his team, but that just never panned out.
Jeremy has long put his teams above himself. He has done every single thing that every coach of his has asked of him, even when he knows it makes no sense. Jeremy knows it makes no sense not to utilize your players for their strengths, but has still done everything that Scott has asked of him. Jeremy could have in his time at the Lakers or Houston come out publicly and complained about how he has been treated (like many other players in the NBA do), but he has not. He's been respectful of his coaches & teams, despite having a much better case for complaining than almost any other player that has ever complained.
So Lakerpark - that is my long-winded answer to you. Because he is (in some capacity) bottling all his (inevitable) resentment inside himself, he will appear to be unhappy when on the bench. I can't imagine what kind of battle might be going on in his mind. Except for D'antoni, he never had a coach in the NBA who believed in him. He's only had coaches that count his successes as flukes, and write him off completely.
Next year, I personally am 99.99999% sure (because you can never be 100% sure) that he will go to a team based entirely off their coach. He is not after money. He is after a championship. And he knows that the only win that he can make that happen is to play for a team that is team-oriented, and for a coach that is team-oriented and objective. He will play for a coach who knows how to take advantage of his players' strengths, and for a coach who doesn't care what race he is. And when this happens, his team will flourish - because Jeremy puts his team first before himself. That is how a team of scrubs in NYK had an amazing run, beating some of the top teams in the NBA. That is how a team of scrubs in Houston also played some of the best team basketball that I've seen (by "team of scrubs" I mean the preseason team before Harden joined in Jeremy's first season at Houston. Check out those games if you want to see what Jeremy's capable of post-NYK when given the reigns and team-oriented players).
Whew - hope you guys don't mind the really long post. I haven't posted here often, but I've wanted to share my opinion for quite some time. Again - everything I've shared here is my own observations after watching Jeremy's career for the past 5 years. Hope you are all having a lovely day!! |
I never was a Lin fan, but I feel the same with you.
Refs are treating him unfairly on both ends too. |
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KobesRevenge
Sixth Man
Joined: 14 Jul 2014
Posts: 92
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| Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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| thisissami wrote: |
Jeremy, from my view (as somebody who has watched most of his games and really seen him through his downs and ups), has been treated terribly by most people in the NBA. Most of his coaches & GMs have, in my opinion, written him off immediately simply because of his race. I know that this is a big claim to make, but it is backed by years of the same exact situations happening again and again.
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I've watched Jeremy for a while and I'm not sure the majority of his problem is racial bias, though there might be some of that too. I personally think most of his issues can be explained with basketball reasons.
Jeremy is a mediocre at ISO plays. But he's a good passer, and he is elite in the pick&roll. To really shine he needs screens - double screens - triple screens - secondary screens for shooters. He had these in creative abundance due to MDA during Linsanity. Watch the old Linsanity highlight videos - every time Lin scores or gets an assist you can see a screened defender falling down on the edge of the screen. Since MDA though, it's been a drought of screens.
Last season I saw in a statistic that Houston ran the fewest screen & roll plays - by far - of any NBA team. McHale likes to claim he runs a "playless" system where everything is done by read and react. This is clearly BS, but the result is they don't run very many screens. Damian Lillard mentioned during the playoffs that it was a huge contrast playing Houston and then San Antonio. The Spurs just pounded Lillard all day long with their screens. Houston? Not so much.
By the way, Princeton and the Triangle are also considered read-and-react style offenses. The original reason for creating these offenses at the college level was to maximize offensive output of mediocre players by having them pass the ball around often and quickly. But at the NBA level, I feel like a read and react type offense doesn't work very well unless you have several good ISO players that are also good passers. Because the worst case with these offenses is that you end up in ISO. And we've been running a lot of read & react (Princeton/Triangle-ish) in our offense. Since it's poorly run and coordinated of course it ends up mostly ISO. This works for Kobe, since he's superior at ISOs, but not so good for Lin, who is mediocre at ISOs.
In fact, the entire team outside of Kobe is mediocre at ISOs. And that's why triangle/princeton is a poor fit for this crew, even when Kobe was healthy. Also only Kobe/Lin are decent passers, you really need a big in the middle that can pass to make read & react fly. If we had kept Pau Gasol things would have worked out a lot better with Byron's system.
Lately Byron's given Lin more free rein to run pick & roll, but as far as I can tell he's doing it on his own, with whatever big (David/Hill/Boozer) he can convince to screen for him. There don't seem to be any P&R plays made for him. Spacing is tight, and the other 3 players mostly stand around rather than running secondary screens & diversions. When Lin sends a bullet pass to Davis I feel like there's not an inch to spare in any X,Y, or Z direction. Everything that isn't 100% on target turns into a turnover. It's actually pretty amazing that Lin has been as productive as he has been.
But Lin will be alright. Most of the teams in the NBA run heavy, creative, screen and roll action. Since NY, Lin has had the misfortune, due to contract negotiations outside his control, of being on two teams that either run the fewest screen & rolls (Houston), or don't believe in P&R (LA). Next season Lin will pick a team that runs a lot of screens, and he'll do fine.
And going back to the original posters point - I don't think Lin is a scrub. But if you force him to ISO most of the time (as Byron has done) he certainly will look like one. From the beginning of the season I've felt the best chance LA has had is to basically run an MDA system with the Lin/Davis pick and roll as the core, and having other players cut/screen/ and otherwise run interference. Lin does best when his defender is constantly looking over his shoulder to see where the screen is coming from. When you have a lot of creative screen plays (and fakes) you can keep your opponent guessing. I'm sure Lillard felt that way when he was playing the Spurs. And I feel such a system would actually maximize the output of the staff we have. |
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Honeybadger81
Star Player
Joined: 25 Oct 2014
Posts: 1253
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:02 am Post subject: |
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^
a nice analysis. another Lin's strength is running fast breaks. Lin is probably as good as anybody running an uptempo fast break offense... when the lakers' defense got a lot stops and steals and put the ball in lin's hand and run, watch out, a lot of easy baskets from Lin and his passes... |
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Lorenzomax
Starting Rotation
Joined: 11 Nov 2014
Posts: 660
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:32 am Post subject: |
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| KobesRevenge wrote: | | thisissami wrote: |
Jeremy, from my view (as somebody who has watched most of his games and really seen him through his downs and ups), has been treated terribly by most people in the NBA. Most of his coaches & GMs have, in my opinion, written him off immediately simply because of his race. I know that this is a big claim to make, but it is backed by years of the same exact situations happening again and again.
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I've watched Jeremy for a while and I'm not sure the majority of his problem is racial bias, though there might be some of that too. I personally think most of his issues can be explained with basketball reasons.
Jeremy is a mediocre at ISO plays. But he's a good passer, and he is elite in the pick&roll. To really shine he needs screens - double screens - triple screens - secondary screens for shooters. He had these in creative abundance due to MDA during Linsanity. Watch the old Linsanity highlight videos - every time Lin scores or gets an assist you can see a screened defender falling down on the edge of the screen. Since MDA though, it's been a drought of screens.
Last season I saw in a statistic that Houston ran the fewest screen & roll plays - by far - of any NBA team. McHale likes to claim he runs a "playless" system where everything is done by read and react. This is clearly BS, but the result is they don't run very many screens. Damian Lillard mentioned during the playoffs that it was a huge contrast playing Houston and then San Antonio. The Spurs just pounded Lillard all day long with their screens. Houston? Not so much.
By the way, Princeton and the Triangle are also considered read-and-react style offenses. The original reason for creating these offenses at the college level was to maximize offensive output of mediocre players by having them pass the ball around often and quickly. But at the NBA level, I feel like a read and react type offense doesn't work very well unless you have several good ISO players that are also good passers. Because the worst case with these offenses is that you end up in ISO. And we've been running a lot of read & react (Princeton/Triangle-ish) in our offense. Since it's poorly run and coordinated of course it ends up mostly ISO. This works for Kobe, since he's superior at ISOs, but not so good for Lin, who is mediocre at ISOs.
In fact, the entire team outside of Kobe is mediocre at ISOs. And that's why triangle/princeton is a poor fit for this crew, even when Kobe was healthy. Also only Kobe/Lin are decent passers, you really need a big in the middle that can pass to make read & react fly. If we had kept Pau Gasol things would have worked out a lot better with Byron's system.
Lately Byron's given Lin more free rein to run pick & roll, but as far as I can tell he's doing it on his own, with whatever big (David/Hill/Boozer) he can convince to screen for him. There don't seem to be any P&R plays made for him. Spacing is tight, and the other 3 players mostly stand around rather than running secondary screens & diversions. When Lin sends a bullet pass to Davis I feel like there's not an inch to spare in any X,Y, or Z direction. Everything that isn't 100% on target turns into a turnover. It's actually pretty amazing that Lin has been as productive as he has been.
But Lin will be alright. Most of the teams in the NBA run heavy, creative, screen and roll action. Since NY, Lin has had the misfortune, due to contract negotiations outside his control, of being on two teams that either run the fewest screen & rolls (Houston), or don't believe in P&R (LA). Next season Lin will pick a team that runs a lot of screens, and he'll do fine.
And going back to the original posters point - I don't think Lin is a scrub. But if you force him to ISO most of the time (as Byron has done) he certainly will look like one. From the beginning of the season I've felt the best chance LA has had is to basically run an MDA system with the Lin/Davis pick and roll as the core, and having other players cut/screen/ and otherwise run interference. Lin does best when his defender is constantly looking over his shoulder to see where the screen is coming from. When you have a lot of creative screen plays (and fakes) you can keep your opponent guessing. I'm sure Lillard felt that way when he was playing the Spurs. And I feel such a system would actually maximize the output of the staff we have. |
Props.  |
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LinKobe
Sixth Man
Joined: 13 Jul 2014
Posts: 58
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:04 am Post subject: |
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| Lin is the best PG we currently have and arguably the best available player on the Lakers roster too, at this moment. Along with Boozer and Davis, Lakers' bench have pretty much outscored the starting unit most games, since Kobe was out for the season. I'm not saying Booz, Ed and Lin are some fantastic trio but on this lousy Lakers roster, they are up there as the best we have available. However, I understand why we are giving playing time to guys like JC to develop and to Kelly, Wes and Ellington, to see if they are worth keeping (they're not). JC has done great and I like him a lot but a PG he is not. |
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persons
Sixth Man
Joined: 11 Jul 2014
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:54 am Post subject: |
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I said it was when he was replaced by bev even when the team was doing good and i said it again.. Ronnie Price replacing Lin ... no reason but Racism and anyone can argue it aint but give me a good reason Ronnie Price was playing 25-30 mins a night on any night.
and im not talking about blatant racism .. more like stereotype stuff
Ronnie Price stats is a complete joke , i reckon if he wasn't injured .. he would still be starting over lin
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/2807/ronnie-price
i still think the lakers bench should be the starting unit.. many times they get replaced by the starters late in the 4th and blow the games.. Just idiot coach with idiot game plan. |
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deal
Franchise Player
Joined: 17 Aug 2008
Posts: 14911
Location: Earth
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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The current Lakers team is, for the most part, full of bench players. IF we had starters there could be an argument to throw one guy in or the the other as compliments but if I'm building a starting 5, I'd be hard pressed to select one player outside of Kobe.
Lin can or not be a fit according to the system, hence, he lacks flexibility and you never know what you get from him (will he score that night?); Randle is an unproven commodity for now & I love Clarkson's drive but he has a way to go (great effort from the kid though).
I'm sure we will land some pics from the Draft and/or FA's. But the Lakers are years away from competing.
For now there is not much other than a bunch (not a team) of role players starting and on the bench. And yes our bench is better than most, well no surprise, we do have a full roster of bench players...
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Lakers need to build a freaking team ! |
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thisissami
Rookie
Joined: 14 Dec 2014
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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^or a tank plan 
@KobesRevenge - thanks for sharing that. I like your analysis, and it's totally on point.
I'd argue that it's a combination of what you talked about and racism. The only reason I still think racism is a part of it is because other players who aren't Lin get to play through their mistakes, whereas Lin does not has a much shorter leash (both on the Rockets and here). It also shows in the difference of playing time that Price & Clarkson get vs Lin when they start. |
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mykeinla
Star Player
Joined: 02 Nov 2012
Posts: 1148
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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Nick Young is an all star type of starter, in the mould of say a Stephen Curry. That is, if you ask Nick Young.
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Nick Young would love to shoot Byron in the back, but there's a good chance he misses. |
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tonman
Starting Rotation
Joined: 12 Jul 2014
Posts: 585
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| KobesRevenge wrote: | | thisissami wrote: |
Jeremy, from my view (as somebody who has watched most of his games and really seen him through his downs and ups), has been treated terribly by most people in the NBA. Most of his coaches & GMs have, in my opinion, written him off immediately simply because of his race. I know that this is a big claim to make, but it is backed by years of the same exact situations happening again and again.
...
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I've watched Jeremy for a while and I'm not sure the majority of his problem is racial bias, though there might be some of that too. I personally think most of his issues can be explained with basketball reasons.
Jeremy is a mediocre at ISO plays. But he's a good passer, and he is elite in the pick&roll. To really shine he needs screens - double screens - triple screens - secondary screens for shooters. He had these in creative abundance due to MDA during Linsanity. Watch the old Linsanity highlight videos - every time Lin scores or gets an assist you can see a screened defender falling down on the edge of the screen. Since MDA though, it's been a drought of screens.
Last season I saw in a statistic that Houston ran the fewest screen & roll plays - by far - of any NBA team. McHale likes to claim he runs a "playless" system where everything is done by read and react. This is clearly BS, but the result is they don't run very many screens. Damian Lillard mentioned during the playoffs that it was a huge contrast playing Houston and then San Antonio. The Spurs just pounded Lillard all day long with their screens. Houston? Not so much.
By the way, Princeton and the Triangle are also considered read-and-react style offenses. The original reason for creating these offenses at the college level was to maximize offensive output of mediocre players by having them pass the ball around often and quickly. But at the NBA level, I feel like a read and react type offense doesn't work very well unless you have several good ISO players that are also good passers. Because the worst case with these offenses is that you end up in ISO. And we've been running a lot of read & react (Princeton/Triangle-ish) in our offense. Since it's poorly run and coordinated of course it ends up mostly ISO. This works for Kobe, since he's superior at ISOs, but not so good for Lin, who is mediocre at ISOs.
In fact, the entire team outside of Kobe is mediocre at ISOs. And that's why triangle/princeton is a poor fit for this crew, even when Kobe was healthy. Also only Kobe/Lin are decent passers, you really need a big in the middle that can pass to make read & react fly. If we had kept Pau Gasol things would have worked out a lot better with Byron's system.
Lately Byron's given Lin more free rein to run pick & roll, but as far as I can tell he's doing it on his own, with whatever big (David/Hill/Boozer) he can convince to screen for him. There don't seem to be any P&R plays made for him. Spacing is tight, and the other 3 players mostly stand around rather than running secondary screens & diversions. When Lin sends a bullet pass to Davis I feel like there's not an inch to spare in any X,Y, or Z direction. Everything that isn't 100% on target turns into a turnover. It's actually pretty amazing that Lin has been as productive as he has been.
But Lin will be alright. Most of the teams in the NBA run heavy, creative, screen and roll action. Since NY, Lin has had the misfortune, due to contract negotiations outside his control, of being on two teams that either run the fewest screen & rolls (Houston), or don't believe in P&R (LA). Next season Lin will pick a team that runs a lot of screens, and he'll do fine.
And going back to the original posters point - I don't think Lin is a scrub. But if you force him to ISO most of the time (as Byron has done) he certainly will look like one. From the beginning of the season I've felt the best chance LA has had is to basically run an MDA system with the Lin/Davis pick and roll as the core, and having other players cut/screen/ and otherwise run interference. Lin does best when his defender is constantly looking over his shoulder to see where the screen is coming from. When you have a lot of creative screen plays (and fakes) you can keep your opponent guessing. I'm sure Lillard felt that way when he was playing the Spurs. And I feel such a system would actually maximize the output of the staff we have. |
the problem is that you leave off some of Lin's strengths. getting a pick is only half the battle. now what are you going to do? Lin last year was 2nd at finishing at the rim. as you mentioned, a lot of teams run heavy screens and PNRs and yet they didn't finish as well as he did at the rim. he's struggled this season mainly due to spacing and a lack of those picks as you mentioned. you also see him use his speed instead of doing the pounding ISO plays. He's poor at the ISO because he's poor at shooting on the move. he's not bad as a spot up shooter but that's not his thing. he shoots the three ball just as well as Nick, Wes, Ellington this season.
I don't think the "defender looking over his shoulder" thing is what is important. if he gets a step, he's by them. he has struggles when he is trapped or when he faces longer taller defenders. but then most would. it's the bigs that is important. the "should I help or should I stay with my man". with Davis rolling, the big is placed in a world of hurt. that's why you see a lot of Hill long two pointers or Boozer jump shots. |
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KobesRevenge
Sixth Man
Joined: 14 Jul 2014
Posts: 92
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| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:51 am Post subject: |
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| Honeybadger81 wrote: | ^
a nice analysis. another Lin's strength is running fast breaks. Lin is probably as good as anybody running an uptempo fast break offense... when the lakers' defense got a lot stops and steals and put the ball in lin's hand and run, watch out, a lot of easy baskets from Lin and his passes... |
I agree with you. There are a lot of strengths (and weaknesses) that Lin has that I left out. I just wanted to list what I thought was his main problem on this team.
Stats show Lin is elite as a ball handler in the P&R. Davis tested out at 95 percentile last year as the roll man in the P&R. That is elite as well. Stats also show that Lin is mediocre in ISOs. So that does Scott do? He separates Lin & Davis for most of the season and has Lin ISO most of the time.
Lin also does well in an uptempo offense. We just don't have anyone running the floor. Coaches decision. This is also a problem for Lin, but I don't believe its his main one.
Lin has also become a decent spot up shooter. Much better than his Linsanity days. But how often have you seen him wide open waving for the ball from the 3 point line while Kobe shoots a long 2 over a triple team? |
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KobesRevenge
Sixth Man
Joined: 14 Jul 2014
Posts: 92
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| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:34 am Post subject: |
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| thisissami wrote: | ^or a tank plan
@KobesRevenge - thanks for sharing that. I like your analysis, and it's totally on point.
I'd argue that it's a combination of what you talked about and racism. The only reason I still think racism is a part of it is because other players who aren't Lin get to play through their mistakes, whereas Lin does not has a much shorter leash (both on the Rockets and here). It also shows in the difference of playing time that Price & Clarkson get vs Lin when they start. |
I still think its mostly basketball reasons - even for his short leash. In Houston and LA he's played for two coaches that don't like or agree with his style of basketball. McHale called him a home run hitter. It was not a compliment. You want the guy to bunt and steal second, and instead he keeps swinging for the fences. So you bench him. Scott has said recently that he doesn't believe in the P&R. Not so good if you're a P&R guard. MDA on the other hand couldn't get enough of Lin. He couldn't take him off the court without ball movement going south. He constantly left him out there for 40+ minutes a game. Different philosophies, different results.
There is one thing that Scott said this season that made me think that there might be some racism involved. That was when Scott made the comment about Lin not being "tough" enough, and how Price was this tough "head of the snake".
If you need to be a thug to seem tough, being a devout Asian Christian is not going to make that happen. Perhaps that's racism, or perhaps a cultural mismatch. As far as toughness goes, I've seen Lin charge into the paint time and time again after get intentionally hard fouled, beat up, cut up, bruised, often landing right on his bad back. He lands pretty much the opposite the way a cat would land - right on his arched back. And yet he keeps coming back for more and takes charges too. I would say that's tough enough for the NBA. But he's not a thug. It's kind of an old school mentality to think that you need to be an "enforcer" and physically threaten those around you on a constant basis to succeed at basketball. No room for that in the modern NBA.
On a lighter note, if NBA fans had to vote on the person least likely to do the following thug-like things, I think Jeremy Lin would win 8 times:
The NBA player least likely to:
1) Die of a drug overdose
2) Star in a "leaked" sex tape with Kim Kardashian
3) Shoot himself in the leg with his own illegal handgun
4) Have a porn star bragging about how she gave him HIV
5) Punch a fan for taking a picture of him
6) Be arrested for beating up his girlfriend
7) Be photographed doing lines of coke off a hooker's ass
8) Impregnate a woman not his current wife
Maybe if he was "likely" rather than "least likely" to do these things he'd be tough enough for Byron Scott  |
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kobeandgary
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Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 6339
Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:37 am Post subject: |
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| KobesRevenge wrote: | | Honeybadger81 wrote: | ^
a nice analysis. another Lin's strength is running fast breaks. Lin is probably as good as anybody running an uptempo fast break offense... when the lakers' defense got a lot stops and steals and put the ball in lin's hand and run, watch out, a lot of easy baskets from Lin and his passes... |
I agree with you. There are a lot of strengths (and weaknesses) that Lin has that I left out. I just wanted to list what I thought was his main problem on this team.
Stats show Lin is elite as a ball handler in the P&R. Davis tested out at 95 percentile last year as the roll man in the P&R. That is elite as well. Stats also show that Lin is mediocre in ISOs. So that does Scott do? He separates Lin & Davis for most of the season and has Lin ISO most of the time.
Lin also does well in an uptempo offense. We just don't have anyone running the floor. Coaches decision. This is also a problem for Lin, but I don't believe its his main one.
Lin has also become a decent spot up shooter. Much better than his Linsanity days. But how often have you seen him wide open waving for the ball from the 3 point line while Kobe shoots a long 2 over a triple team? |
Lin at best is a decent point guard, he will never be the starting point guard for a championship team, he would however make a nice backup on one. |
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