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the association
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Joined: 03 Feb 2015
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 Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| lakersken80 wrote: | | Oliver Reed wrote: | | the association wrote: | | Oliver Reed wrote: | | Free education. Some of those schools have kids in debt for 40 years after graduation. Free food. Free housing. Priority registration. Free parking. Perks, free clothes. Sounds like they are getting paid to me. Oh, you mean millions? So they can buy 15 cars and houses and all that horse (bleep) that they are going to lose in 10 year anyway? If you do not want to go to college and be "exploited". Then it is YOUR Choice not too. You can wait 3 years after high school to be eligible. and basketball players can go somewhere else to show their skills for a year. |
Those kids in debt for 40 years after graduation are invariably NOT at the epicenter of a multi-billion $ enterprise (annually) ... how is that fact lost on you (and others who are so quick to blithely dismiss reality)?
Jameis Winston bears direct responsibility for a significant portion of the tens of millions of dollars in income realized by the Athletics Department at Florida State University over the past few years. On the other hand, the random student majoring in Sociology at FSU didn't deliver a single penny other than his or her (pathetically meager in comparison) tuition to the university's bursar over that period ...
Nobody argues for millions in remuneration for athletes. But since you brought it up, how exactly do you justify the millions that are paid to most Top 25 coaches in men's basketball and football? I ask, because when I checked the statistics for the most recent season, I found that Urban Meyer had zero yards passing, zero yards rushing, zero yards receiving, and zero tackles. Same goes for Kevin Ollie ... that dude didn't score a single point, hit the boards for a single rebound, or rack a single assist last season.
Finally, the "take it or leave it" approach you seem to espouse isn't worth addressing in great detail ... there's a really unpleasant message underlying your comments, so I'll leave that alone b/c I prefer my intolerance in less overt doses. |
There aren't any undertones. Your mind is in the media hype world of undertones. I'm stating reality here. Go run your own business and then come talk to me. Do the athletes have to worry about benefits, academic standards, property taxes, state laws, bills, enrollment, managing staffs, making sure parking structures need to be fixed, make sure classrooms are lit. No. They don't. They sit back, get opportunities to learn without one dime coming out of their pocket or their parents pockets. The ability to educate themselves so they can better themselves for the future. And so on....
Universities have to continue to lose money in several sports because of Title IX. There are only a handful of players on a team that actually have a legit gripe about the pay structure in college sports. If you start paying even one athlete in college, you have opened a box that even Pandora would blush at. It can not happen and will not happen. I do not care how fair or unfair it is. You start paying amateurs, college sports is done. Colleges will lose money and then some other entity will have to come in and try to fix the (bleep) storm it creates. If you need an example, look what happen to the Olympics the last 20 years. Fans in Michigan come in droves to Ann Arbor. All college fans say the same thing, they love the amateur game because its kids playing for something. Pro game is watered down entitles aholes. Thats why ann arbor fills 100K+ and the Lions can only hold 60K. As well as all the other pro teams.
Imagine this for a second. Imagine college athletes getting paid, and then imagine the agents, the managers, the boosters lying back and saying, ok, we do not have to pay them anymore. OH, yah, you cant imagine. Because it wouldn't. It would get worse. It will cause one big cluster eff. because then, if the colleges or NCAA enforce agents and managers and the booster giving the player more money, they will be able to come back and use the "it's unfair that the colleges and the NCAA pay them but we cant".
There are options for both basketball players and football players. You do not want to be exploited? Play in Canada for 3 years, get paid and then get drafted. Warren Moon did it, you didnt see him crying like all these babies and he didnt get a chance because he was freakin Black. Basketball players are already playing overseas so there you go. This is America. You have choices. Life isn't (bleep) fair. We kids use to hear that a lot growing up. Now, we have to hear how it is never our fault, its THEM. Every damn corporation is corrupt in America. NCAA, GE, Microsoft, doesn't freakin matter. You wanna live where everything is fair and equal, go move to Sweden or some lousy country like that. We individuality is looked sacrilege. So I heard.... |
LOL, you sound like a worried NCAA president that their money train is soon coming to an end. Fact is these guys are gonna get compensated sooner or later. They won't get millions, but certainly better than a stipend to buy a box of cup of noodles. |
Yes, yes ... just sit back here on my 21st century hardwood and gridiron plantation, effortlessly produce (or unleash) value for me and my cabal in the form of billions of $$$ in revenue every year, "take it or leave it" when I limit your participation to approx. 8% of revenues, and above all else, know your place.
Warmly,
Uncle Mark Gingrich ... I mean, Emmert
PS ... Wanna know the best part? I'm the one sitting back!
Last edited by the association on Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:08 pm; edited 6 times in total |
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lakersken80
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Aug 2009
Posts: 38794
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Oliver Reed wrote: | | Free education. Some of those schools have kids in debt for 40 years after graduation. Free food. Free housing. Priority registration. Free parking. Perks, free clothes. Sounds like they are getting paid to me. Oh, you mean millions? So they can buy 15 cars and houses and all that horse (bleep) that they are going to lose in 10 year anyway? If you do not want to go to college and be "exploited". Then it is YOUR Choice not too. You can wait 3 years after high school to be eligible. and basketball players can go somewhere else to show their skills for a year. |
So if I were to tell you that you can do a job and earn me millions of dollars, but you won't get paid compensation of any form you would work for free right? Emphasis on paid financial compensation. |
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Wilt
LG Contributor
Joined: 29 Dec 2002
Posts: 13731
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| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:31 am Post subject: |
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| the association wrote: | | Oliver Reed wrote: | | the association wrote: | | Oliver Reed wrote: | | Free education. Some of those schools have kids in debt for 40 years after graduation. Free food. Free housing. Priority registration. Free parking. Perks, free clothes. Sounds like they are getting paid to me. Oh, you mean millions? So they can buy 15 cars and houses and all that horse (bleep) that they are going to lose in 10 year anyway? If you do not want to go to college and be "exploited". Then it is YOUR Choice not too. You can wait 3 years after high school to be eligible. and basketball players can go somewhere else to show their skills for a year. |
Those kids in debt for 40 years after graduation are invariably NOT at the epicenter of a multi-billion $ enterprise (annually) ... how is that fact lost on you (and others who are so quick to blithely dismiss reality)?
Jameis Winston bears direct responsibility for a significant portion of the tens of millions of dollars in income realized by the Athletics Department at Florida State University over the past few years. On the other hand, the random student majoring in Sociology at FSU didn't deliver a single penny other than his or her (pathetically meager in comparison) tuition to the university's bursar over that period ...
Nobody argues for millions in remuneration for athletes. But since you brought it up, how exactly do you justify the millions that are paid to most Top 25 coaches in men's basketball and football? I ask, because when I checked the statistics for the most recent season, I found that Urban Meyer had zero yards passing, zero yards rushing, zero yards receiving, and zero tackles. Same goes for Kevin Ollie ... that dude didn't score a single point, hit the boards for a single rebound, or rack a single assist last season.
Finally, the "take it or leave it" approach you seem to espouse isn't worth addressing in great detail ... there's a really unpleasant message underlying your comments, so I'll leave that alone b/c I prefer my intolerance in less overt doses. |
There aren't any undertones. Your mind is in the media hype world of undertones. I'm stating reality here. Go run your own business and then come talk to me. Do the athletes have to worry about benefits, academic standards, property taxes, state laws, bills, enrollment, managing staffs, making sure parking structures need to be fixed, make sure classrooms are lit. No. They don't. They sit back, get opportunities to learn without one dime coming out of their pocket or their parents pockets. The ability to educate themselves so they can better themselves for the future. And so on....
Universities have to continue to lose money in several sports because of Title IX. There are only a handful of players on a team that actually have a legit gripe about the pay structure in college sports. If you start paying even one athlete in college, you have opened a box that even Pandora would blush at. It can not happen and will not happen. I do not care how fair or unfair it is. You start paying amateurs, college sports is done. Colleges will lose money and then some other entity will have to come in and try to fix the (bleep) storm it creates. If you need an example, look what happen to the Olympics the last 20 years. Fans in Michigan come in droves to Ann Arbor. All college fans say the same thing, they love the amateur game because its kids playing for something. Pro game is watered down entitles aholes. Thats why ann arbor fills 100K+ and the Lions can only hold 60K. As well as all the other pro teams.
Imagine this for a second. Imagine college athletes getting paid, and then imagine the agents, the managers, the boosters lying back and saying, ok, we do not have to pay them anymore. OH, yah, you cant imagine. Because it wouldn't. It would get worse. It will cause one big cluster eff. because then, if the colleges or NCAA enforce agents and managers and the booster giving the player more money, they will be able to come back and use the "it's unfair that the colleges and the NCAA pay them but we cant".
There are options for both basketball players and football players. You do not want to be exploited? Play in Canada for 3 years, get paid and then get drafted. Warren Moon did it, you didnt see him crying like all these babies and he didnt get a chance because he was freakin Black. Basketball players are already playing overseas so there you go. This is America. You have choices. Life isn't (bleep) fair. We kids use to hear that a lot growing up. Now, we have to hear how it is never our fault, its THEM. Every damn corporation is corrupt in America. NCAA, GE, Microsoft, doesn't freakin matter. You wanna live where everything is fair and equal, go move to Sweden or some lousy country like that. We individuality is looked sacrilege. So I heard.... |
You fail to explain why coaches are worth millions in compensation, yet not one of them has to spend a moment worrying about the crumbling parking structures, the lecture hall lighting, or those troublesome state laws.
You fail to address the BILLIONS in revenue EVERY YEAR that are only possible through the hard work of those athletes.
You suggest that it's true, but fail to provide any authority for your argument that athletes on the women's soccer and men's swimming teams MUST be funded / compensated the same amount as the those on the football and men's basketball teams. I don't think Title IX goes that far ...
You fail to mention that all of those insidious elements like dishonest boosters, disruptive player agents, etc. ALREADY exist and operate with impunity, out in the open and right under the noses of most major universities ...
You fail to explain what all of those Big House attendees will do with their new free time in bustling, metropolitan Ann Arbor without Big Blue to entertain them many Saturdays in the Fall?
You just fail ... over and over again.
But I'll tell you what I like A LOT: seeing someone like you appear so desperately anxious to keep things exactly as they are, and to cross your arms with the "life's not fair, take it or leave it" nonsense, my view that reform is necessary is affirmed 100x over again.
Fair is Jameis Winston making $4.1M+ this year and Jimbo Fisher making $250K ... but I'll settle for merely "still completely F'd up and unfair": Jimbo Fisher making his $4.1M+ and Jameis Winston making enough ($25K is a decent starting point, I think) via stipend to buy some crab legs every once in a while ... |
I wanna know what exactly makes Sweden a "lousy country," considering the data we have tell us that it's one of the most advanced countries in the world.
_________________
¡Hala Madrid! |
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Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
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| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:00 am Post subject: |
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| Oliver Reed wrote: | | I'm stating reality here. Go run your own business and then come talk to me. Do the athletes have to worry about benefits, academic standards, property taxes, state laws, bills, enrollment, managing staffs, making sure parking structures need to be fixed, make sure classrooms are lit. No. They don't. |
Do the employees of a business have to worry about those things? No, they don't. Weird analogy on your part.
| Oliver Reed wrote: | | They sit back, get opportunities to learn without one dime coming out of their pocket or their parents pockets. The ability to educate themselves so they can better themselves for the future. And so on.... |
Sort of like unpaid interns, eh? We know how much these "opportunities" matter to a lot of the kids. These sorts of patronizing arguments have become increasingly tenuous.
| Oliver Reed wrote: | | Universities have to continue to lose money in several sports because of Title IX. |
Dang, it's terrible that universities have to take some of the profits from football and basketball and use them to subsidize women's athletics. What an outrage.
Anyway, this is a non sequitur on your part. The legitimate gripe about Title IX is its impact on fringe men's sports like wrestling, not its financial impact on schools. Wrestling isn't a revenue sport, either. Without Title IX, schools would lose money on fringe men's sports instead of women's sports.
| Oliver Reed wrote: | | There are only a handful of players on a team that actually have a legit gripe about the pay structure in college sports. |
Huh? There is no pay structure in college sports.
| Oliver Reed wrote: | | If you start paying even one athlete in college, you have opened a box that even Pandora would blush at. It can not happen and will not happen. I do not care how fair or unfair it is. You start paying amateurs, college sports is done. Colleges will lose money and then some other entity will have to come in and try to fix the (bleep) storm it creates. |
Yeah, right. Clearly, you don't realize the extent to which schools are making money on football and basketball. The real impact would not be on profits and losses, but rather on the rich vs. poor divide among schools. When you get past the power five conferences in football, the revenue level drops off fairly quickly. The mid majors would be finished in top level football because a lot of them couldn't afford to pay players, at least not at the same level as schools like Texas, Alabama, and Ohio State.
But that is going to happen anyway, regardless of whether athletes get paid. It's just a question of how soon. As an alumnus of a school that was once in the Southwest Conference and is now in Conference USA, I've been watching it coming for 20 years.
| Oliver Reed wrote: | | If you need an example, look what happen to the Olympics the last 20 years. |
I'll bite. What happened to the Olympics in the last 20 years?
| Oliver Reed wrote: | | Fans in Michigan come in droves to Ann Arbor. All college fans say the same thing, they love the amateur game because its kids playing for something. Pro game is watered down entitles aholes. Thats why ann arbor fills 100K+ and the Lions can only hold 60K. As well as all the other pro teams. |
Kids playing for something? No, it's kids playing for free.
Actually, your UofM reference just highlights the unseemliness of the present system. Yeah, 100k+ of rabid UofM fans show up for games to be entertained by unpaid kids. And some of them actually think this is virtuous because it's amateur athletics.
| Oliver Reed wrote: | | Imagine this for a second. Imagine college athletes getting paid, and then imagine the agents, the managers, the boosters lying back and saying, ok, we do not have to pay them anymore. OH, yah, you cant imagine. Because it wouldn't. It would get worse. It will cause one big cluster eff. because then, if the colleges or NCAA enforce agents and managers and the booster giving the player more money, they will be able to come back and use the "it's unfair that the colleges and the NCAA pay them but we cant". |
That's a weird argument. That's like saying "How do we stop kids from playing on Saturday for a college team and on Sunday for an NFL team?" Just because you can imagine some scenario doesn't mean that it is likely to happen.
| Oliver Reed wrote: | | There are options for both basketball players and football players. You do not want to be exploited? Play in Canada for 3 years, get paid and then get drafted. Warren Moon did it, you didnt see him crying like all these babies and he didnt get a chance because he was freakin Black. |
I thought you said that there were no undertones in what you're saying. Oops. I guess those undertones just boiled to the surface.
Just for the record, Warren Moon went to the University of Washington. He played in the CFL because none of the NFL teams took him in the draft. So, other than the fact that you have it all wrong, that's a great point.
| Oliver Reed wrote: | | Basketball players are already playing overseas so there you go. This is America. You have choices. Life isn't (bleep) fair. We kids use to hear that a lot growing up. Now, we have to hear how it is never our fault, its THEM. Every damn corporation is corrupt in America. NCAA, GE, Microsoft, doesn't freakin matter. You wanna live where everything is fair and equal, go move to Sweden or some lousy country like that. We individuality is looked sacrilege. So I heard.... |
Let me guess. You're mad as hell, and you're not going to take it anymore? |
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the association
Star Player
Joined: 03 Feb 2015
Posts: 1982
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| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Oliver Reed wrote: | | I'm stating reality here. Go run your own business and then come talk to me. Do the athletes have to worry about benefits, academic standards, property taxes, state laws, bills, enrollment, managing staffs, making sure parking structures need to be fixed, make sure classrooms are lit. No. They don't. |
Do the employees of a business have to worry about those things? No, they don't. Weird analogy on your part.
| Oliver Reed wrote: | | They sit back, get opportunities to learn without one dime coming out of their pocket or their parents pockets. The ability to educate themselves so they can better themselves for the future. And so on.... |
Sort of like unpaid interns, eh? We know how much these "opportunities" matter to a lot of the kids. These sorts of patronizing arguments have become increasingly tenuous.
| Oliver Reed wrote: | | Universities have to continue to lose money in several sports because of Title IX. |
Dang, it's terrible that universities have to take some of the profits from football and basketball and use them to subsidize women's athletics. What an outrage.
Anyway, this is a non sequitur on your part. The legitimate gripe about Title IX is its impact on fringe men's sports like wrestling, not its financial impact on schools. Wrestling isn't a revenue sport, either. Without Title IX, schools would lose money on fringe men's sports instead of women's sports.
| Oliver Reed wrote: | | There are only a handful of players on a team that actually have a legit gripe about the pay structure in college sports. |
Huh? There is no pay structure in college sports.
| Oliver Reed wrote: | | If you start paying even one athlete in college, you have opened a box that even Pandora would blush at. It can not happen and will not happen. I do not care how fair or unfair it is. You start paying amateurs, college sports is done. Colleges will lose money and then some other entity will have to come in and try to fix the (bleep) storm it creates. |
Yeah, right. Clearly, you don't realize the extent to which schools are making money on football and basketball. The real impact would not be on profits and losses, but rather on the rich vs. poor divide among schools. When you get past the power five conferences in football, the revenue level drops off fairly quickly. The mid majors would be finished in top level football because a lot of them couldn't afford to pay players, at least not at the same level as schools like Texas, Alabama, and Ohio State.
But that is going to happen anyway, regardless of whether athletes get paid. It's just a question of how soon. As an alumnus of a school that was once in the Southwest Conference and is now in Conference USA, I've been watching it coming for 20 years.
| Oliver Reed wrote: | | If you need an example, look what happen to the Olympics the last 20 years. |
I'll bite. What happened to the Olympics in the last 20 years?
| Oliver Reed wrote: | | Fans in Michigan come in droves to Ann Arbor. All college fans say the same thing, they love the amateur game because its kids playing for something. Pro game is watered down entitles aholes. Thats why ann arbor fills 100K+ and the Lions can only hold 60K. As well as all the other pro teams. |
Kids playing for something? No, it's kids playing for free.
Actually, your UofM reference just highlights the unseemliness of the present system. Yeah, 100k+ of rabid UofM fans show up for games to be entertained by unpaid kids. And some of them actually think this is virtuous because it's amateur athletics.
| Oliver Reed wrote: | | Imagine this for a second. Imagine college athletes getting paid, and then imagine the agents, the managers, the boosters lying back and saying, ok, we do not have to pay them anymore. OH, yah, you cant imagine. Because it wouldn't. It would get worse. It will cause one big cluster eff. because then, if the colleges or NCAA enforce agents and managers and the booster giving the player more money, they will be able to come back and use the "it's unfair that the colleges and the NCAA pay them but we cant". |
That's a weird argument. That's like saying "How do we stop kids from playing on Saturday for a college team and on Sunday for an NFL team?" Just because you can imagine some scenario doesn't mean that it is likely to happen.
| Oliver Reed wrote: | | There are options for both basketball players and football players. You do not want to be exploited? Play in Canada for 3 years, get paid and then get drafted. Warren Moon did it, you didnt see him crying like all these babies and he didnt get a chance because he was freakin Black. |
I thought you said that there were no undertones in what you're saying. Oops. I guess those undertones just boiled to the surface.
Just for the record, Warren Moon went to the University of Washington. He played in the CFL because none of the NFL teams took him in the draft. So, other than the fact that you have it all wrong, that's a great point.
| Oliver Reed wrote: | | Basketball players are already playing overseas so there you go. This is America. You have choices. Life isn't (bleep) fair. We kids use to hear that a lot growing up. Now, we have to hear how it is never our fault, its THEM. Every damn corporation is corrupt in America. NCAA, GE, Microsoft, doesn't freakin matter. You wanna live where everything is fair and equal, go move to Sweden or some lousy country like that. We individuality is looked sacrilege. So I heard.... |
Let me guess. You're mad as hell, and you're not going to take it anymore? |
Clean-up on Aisle 10, clean-up on Aisle 10
Good x, but show some restraint and leave something for the coroner to identify next time ...
Also, +1 |
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the association
Star Player
Joined: 03 Feb 2015
Posts: 1982
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| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:46 am Post subject: |
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| Wilt wrote: | | the association wrote: | | Oliver Reed wrote: | | the association wrote: | | Oliver Reed wrote: | | Free education. Some of those schools have kids in debt for 40 years after graduation. Free food. Free housing. Priority registration. Free parking. Perks, free clothes. Sounds like they are getting paid to me. Oh, you mean millions? So they can buy 15 cars and houses and all that horse (bleep) that they are going to lose in 10 year anyway? If you do not want to go to college and be "exploited". Then it is YOUR Choice not too. You can wait 3 years after high school to be eligible. and basketball players can go somewhere else to show their skills for a year. |
Those kids in debt for 40 years after graduation are invariably NOT at the epicenter of a multi-billion $ enterprise (annually) ... how is that fact lost on you (and others who are so quick to blithely dismiss reality)?
Jameis Winston bears direct responsibility for a significant portion of the tens of millions of dollars in income realized by the Athletics Department at Florida State University over the past few years. On the other hand, the random student majoring in Sociology at FSU didn't deliver a single penny other than his or her (pathetically meager in comparison) tuition to the university's bursar over that period ...
Nobody argues for millions in remuneration for athletes. But since you brought it up, how exactly do you justify the millions that are paid to most Top 25 coaches in men's basketball and football? I ask, because when I checked the statistics for the most recent season, I found that Urban Meyer had zero yards passing, zero yards rushing, zero yards receiving, and zero tackles. Same goes for Kevin Ollie ... that dude didn't score a single point, hit the boards for a single rebound, or rack a single assist last season.
Finally, the "take it or leave it" approach you seem to espouse isn't worth addressing in great detail ... there's a really unpleasant message underlying your comments, so I'll leave that alone b/c I prefer my intolerance in less overt doses. |
There aren't any undertones. Your mind is in the media hype world of undertones. I'm stating reality here. Go run your own business and then come talk to me. Do the athletes have to worry about benefits, academic standards, property taxes, state laws, bills, enrollment, managing staffs, making sure parking structures need to be fixed, make sure classrooms are lit. No. They don't. They sit back, get opportunities to learn without one dime coming out of their pocket or their parents pockets. The ability to educate themselves so they can better themselves for the future. And so on....
Universities have to continue to lose money in several sports because of Title IX. There are only a handful of players on a team that actually have a legit gripe about the pay structure in college sports. If you start paying even one athlete in college, you have opened a box that even Pandora would blush at. It can not happen and will not happen. I do not care how fair or unfair it is. You start paying amateurs, college sports is done. Colleges will lose money and then some other entity will have to come in and try to fix the (bleep) storm it creates. If you need an example, look what happen to the Olympics the last 20 years. Fans in Michigan come in droves to Ann Arbor. All college fans say the same thing, they love the amateur game because its kids playing for something. Pro game is watered down entitles aholes. Thats why ann arbor fills 100K+ and the Lions can only hold 60K. As well as all the other pro teams.
Imagine this for a second. Imagine college athletes getting paid, and then imagine the agents, the managers, the boosters lying back and saying, ok, we do not have to pay them anymore. OH, yah, you cant imagine. Because it wouldn't. It would get worse. It will cause one big cluster eff. because then, if the colleges or NCAA enforce agents and managers and the booster giving the player more money, they will be able to come back and use the "it's unfair that the colleges and the NCAA pay them but we cant".
There are options for both basketball players and football players. You do not want to be exploited? Play in Canada for 3 years, get paid and then get drafted. Warren Moon did it, you didnt see him crying like all these babies and he didnt get a chance because he was freakin Black. Basketball players are already playing overseas so there you go. This is America. You have choices. Life isn't (bleep) fair. We kids use to hear that a lot growing up. Now, we have to hear how it is never our fault, its THEM. Every damn corporation is corrupt in America. NCAA, GE, Microsoft, doesn't freakin matter. You wanna live where everything is fair and equal, go move to Sweden or some lousy country like that. We individuality is looked sacrilege. So I heard.... |
You fail to explain why coaches are worth millions in compensation, yet not one of them has to spend a moment worrying about the crumbling parking structures, the lecture hall lighting, or those troublesome state laws.
You fail to address the BILLIONS in revenue EVERY YEAR that are only possible through the hard work of those athletes.
You suggest that it's true, but fail to provide any authority for your argument that athletes on the women's soccer and men's swimming teams MUST be funded / compensated the same amount as the those on the football and men's basketball teams. I don't think Title IX goes that far ...
You fail to mention that all of those insidious elements like dishonest boosters, disruptive player agents, etc. ALREADY exist and operate with impunity, out in the open and right under the noses of most major universities ...
You fail to explain what all of those Big House attendees will do with their new free time in bustling, metropolitan Ann Arbor without Big Blue to entertain them many Saturdays in the Fall?
You just fail ... over and over again.
But I'll tell you what I like A LOT: seeing someone like you appear so desperately anxious to keep things exactly as they are, and to cross your arms with the "life's not fair, take it or leave it" nonsense, my view that reform is necessary is affirmed 100x over again.
Fair is Jameis Winston making $4.1M+ this year and Jimbo Fisher making $250K ... but I'll settle for merely "still completely F'd up and unfair": Jimbo Fisher making his $4.1M+ and Jameis Winston making enough ($25K is a decent starting point, I think) via stipend to buy some crab legs every once in a while ... |
I wanna know what exactly makes Sweden a "lousy country," considering the data we have tell us that it's one of the most advanced countries in the world. |
I have no issue with Sweden or greater Scandinavia. The comment re: Sweden was made by another ... |
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vanexelent
Retired Number
Joined: 17 May 2005
Posts: 30081
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| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:32 am Post subject: |
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I think there are two fixes that can be made while keeping the current system:
#1. Coaches should be paid what other professors earn and can have bonuses attached to graduation rates. This is the only way to honestly claim the players are "student-athletes". They must be "faculty-coaches". Coaches cannot have endorsement deals unless the athletes are also allowed.
#2. Players need to be compensated for using their likeness, including any games played on tv or used for marketing purposes or to sale things. The NCAA can claim the players are not employees, but they then lose the right to profit from their collegiate activities. You want to sell a jersey? Then it can't have any specific name or number on it.
This would allow the NCAA to continue with it's current model of not paying students for playing sports, but would compensate them for the business model created around the sports themselves. |
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Birmingham
Starting Rotation
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 224
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| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:02 am Post subject: Re: John Oliver destroys the NCAA |
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John Oliver is brilliant.
We're all proud of him in Birmingham, England.
What a bloke. |
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KobeBryantCliffordBrown
Star Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 6429
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| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:09 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Oliver Reed wrote: | | I'm stating reality here. Go run your own business and then come talk to me. Do the athletes have to worry about benefits, academic standards, property taxes, state laws, bills, enrollment, managing staffs, making sure parking structures need to be fixed, make sure classrooms are lit. No. They don't. |
Do the employees of a business have to worry about those things? No, they don't. Weird analogy on your part.
| Oliver Reed wrote: | | They sit back, get opportunities to learn without one dime coming out of their pocket or their parents pockets. The ability to educate themselves so they can better themselves for the future. And so on.... |
Sort of like unpaid interns, eh? We know how much these "opportunities" matter to a lot of the kids. These sorts of patronizing arguments have become increasingly tenuous.
| Oliver Reed wrote: | | Universities have to continue to lose money in several sports because of Title IX. |
Dang, it's terrible that universities have to take some of the profits from football and basketball and use them to subsidize women's athletics. What an outrage.
Anyway, this is a non sequitur on your part. The legitimate gripe about Title IX is its impact on fringe men's sports like wrestling, not its financial impact on schools. Wrestling isn't a revenue sport, either. Without Title IX, schools would lose money on fringe men's sports instead of women's sports.
| Oliver Reed wrote: | | There are only a handful of players on a team that actually have a legit gripe about the pay structure in college sports. |
Huh? There is no pay structure in college sports.
| Oliver Reed wrote: | | If you start paying even one athlete in college, you have opened a box that even Pandora would blush at. It can not happen and will not happen. I do not care how fair or unfair it is. You start paying amateurs, college sports is done. Colleges will lose money and then some other entity will have to come in and try to fix the (bleep) storm it creates. |
Yeah, right. Clearly, you don't realize the extent to which schools are making money on football and basketball. The real impact would not be on profits and losses, but rather on the rich vs. poor divide among schools. When you get past the power five conferences in football, the revenue level drops off fairly quickly. The mid majors would be finished in top level football because a lot of them couldn't afford to pay players, at least not at the same level as schools like Texas, Alabama, and Ohio State.
But that is going to happen anyway, regardless of whether athletes get paid. It's just a question of how soon. As an alumnus of a school that was once in the Southwest Conference and is now in Conference USA, I've been watching it coming for 20 years.
| Oliver Reed wrote: | | If you need an example, look what happen to the Olympics the last 20 years. |
I'll bite. What happened to the Olympics in the last 20 years?
| Oliver Reed wrote: | | Fans in Michigan come in droves to Ann Arbor. All college fans say the same thing, they love the amateur game because its kids playing for something. Pro game is watered down entitles aholes. Thats why ann arbor fills 100K+ and the Lions can only hold 60K. As well as all the other pro teams. |
Kids playing for something? No, it's kids playing for free.
Actually, your UofM reference just highlights the unseemliness of the present system. Yeah, 100k+ of rabid UofM fans show up for games to be entertained by unpaid kids. And some of them actually think this is virtuous because it's amateur athletics.
| Oliver Reed wrote: | | Imagine this for a second. Imagine college athletes getting paid, and then imagine the agents, the managers, the boosters lying back and saying, ok, we do not have to pay them anymore. OH, yah, you cant imagine. Because it wouldn't. It would get worse. It will cause one big cluster eff. because then, if the colleges or NCAA enforce agents and managers and the booster giving the player more money, they will be able to come back and use the "it's unfair that the colleges and the NCAA pay them but we cant". |
That's a weird argument. That's like saying "How do we stop kids from playing on Saturday for a college team and on Sunday for an NFL team?" Just because you can imagine some scenario doesn't mean that it is likely to happen.
| Oliver Reed wrote: | | There are options for both basketball players and football players. You do not want to be exploited? Play in Canada for 3 years, get paid and then get drafted. Warren Moon did it, you didnt see him crying like all these babies and he didnt get a chance because he was freakin Black. |
I thought you said that there were no undertones in what you're saying. Oops. I guess those undertones just boiled to the surface.
Just for the record, Warren Moon went to the University of Washington. He played in the CFL because none of the NFL teams took him in the draft. So, other than the fact that you have it all wrong, that's a great point.
| Oliver Reed wrote: | | Basketball players are already playing overseas so there you go. This is America. You have choices. Life isn't (bleep) fair. We kids use to hear that a lot growing up. Now, we have to hear how it is never our fault, its THEM. Every damn corporation is corrupt in America. NCAA, GE, Microsoft, doesn't freakin matter. You wanna live where everything is fair and equal, go move to Sweden or some lousy country like that. We individuality is looked sacrilege. So I heard.... |
Let me guess. You're mad as hell, and you're not going to take it anymore? |
Great post AH. Just for the record. Moon actually started his college career at West Los Angeles Community College, where I started mine, before his transfer to Washington.
_________________
“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays |
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jonnybravo
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| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| the association wrote: | | Wilt wrote: | | the association wrote: | | Oliver Reed wrote: | | the association wrote: | | Oliver Reed wrote: | | Free education. Some of those schools have kids in debt for 40 years after graduation. Free food. Free housing. Priority registration. Free parking. Perks, free clothes. Sounds like they are getting paid to me. Oh, you mean millions? So they can buy 15 cars and houses and all that horse (bleep) that they are going to lose in 10 year anyway? If you do not want to go to college and be "exploited". Then it is YOUR Choice not too. You can wait 3 years after high school to be eligible. and basketball players can go somewhere else to show their skills for a year. |
Those kids in debt for 40 years after graduation are invariably NOT at the epicenter of a multi-billion $ enterprise (annually) ... how is that fact lost on you (and others who are so quick to blithely dismiss reality)?
Jameis Winston bears direct responsibility for a significant portion of the tens of millions of dollars in income realized by the Athletics Department at Florida State University over the past few years. On the other hand, the random student majoring in Sociology at FSU didn't deliver a single penny other than his or her (pathetically meager in comparison) tuition to the university's bursar over that period ...
Nobody argues for millions in remuneration for athletes. But since you brought it up, how exactly do you justify the millions that are paid to most Top 25 coaches in men's basketball and football? I ask, because when I checked the statistics for the most recent season, I found that Urban Meyer had zero yards passing, zero yards rushing, zero yards receiving, and zero tackles. Same goes for Kevin Ollie ... that dude didn't score a single point, hit the boards for a single rebound, or rack a single assist last season.
Finally, the "take it or leave it" approach you seem to espouse isn't worth addressing in great detail ... there's a really unpleasant message underlying your comments, so I'll leave that alone b/c I prefer my intolerance in less overt doses. |
There aren't any undertones. Your mind is in the media hype world of undertones. I'm stating reality here. Go run your own business and then come talk to me. Do the athletes have to worry about benefits, academic standards, property taxes, state laws, bills, enrollment, managing staffs, making sure parking structures need to be fixed, make sure classrooms are lit. No. They don't. They sit back, get opportunities to learn without one dime coming out of their pocket or their parents pockets. The ability to educate themselves so they can better themselves for the future. And so on....
Universities have to continue to lose money in several sports because of Title IX. There are only a handful of players on a team that actually have a legit gripe about the pay structure in college sports. If you start paying even one athlete in college, you have opened a box that even Pandora would blush at. It can not happen and will not happen. I do not care how fair or unfair it is. You start paying amateurs, college sports is done. Colleges will lose money and then some other entity will have to come in and try to fix the (bleep) storm it creates. If you need an example, look what happen to the Olympics the last 20 years. Fans in Michigan come in droves to Ann Arbor. All college fans say the same thing, they love the amateur game because its kids playing for something. Pro game is watered down entitles aholes. Thats why ann arbor fills 100K+ and the Lions can only hold 60K. As well as all the other pro teams.
Imagine this for a second. Imagine college athletes getting paid, and then imagine the agents, the managers, the boosters lying back and saying, ok, we do not have to pay them anymore. OH, yah, you cant imagine. Because it wouldn't. It would get worse. It will cause one big cluster eff. because then, if the colleges or NCAA enforce agents and managers and the booster giving the player more money, they will be able to come back and use the "it's unfair that the colleges and the NCAA pay them but we cant".
There are options for both basketball players and football players. You do not want to be exploited? Play in Canada for 3 years, get paid and then get drafted. Warren Moon did it, you didnt see him crying like all these babies and he didnt get a chance because he was freakin Black. Basketball players are already playing overseas so there you go. This is America. You have choices. Life isn't (bleep) fair. We kids use to hear that a lot growing up. Now, we have to hear how it is never our fault, its THEM. Every damn corporation is corrupt in America. NCAA, GE, Microsoft, doesn't freakin matter. You wanna live where everything is fair and equal, go move to Sweden or some lousy country like that. We individuality is looked sacrilege. So I heard.... |
You fail to explain why coaches are worth millions in compensation, yet not one of them has to spend a moment worrying about the crumbling parking structures, the lecture hall lighting, or those troublesome state laws.
You fail to address the BILLIONS in revenue EVERY YEAR that are only possible through the hard work of those athletes.
You suggest that it's true, but fail to provide any authority for your argument that athletes on the women's soccer and men's swimming teams MUST be funded / compensated the same amount as the those on the football and men's basketball teams. I don't think Title IX goes that far ...
You fail to mention that all of those insidious elements like dishonest boosters, disruptive player agents, etc. ALREADY exist and operate with impunity, out in the open and right under the noses of most major universities ...
You fail to explain what all of those Big House attendees will do with their new free time in bustling, metropolitan Ann Arbor without Big Blue to entertain them many Saturdays in the Fall?
You just fail ... over and over again.
But I'll tell you what I like A LOT: seeing someone like you appear so desperately anxious to keep things exactly as they are, and to cross your arms with the "life's not fair, take it or leave it" nonsense, my view that reform is necessary is affirmed 100x over again.
Fair is Jameis Winston making $4.1M+ this year and Jimbo Fisher making $250K ... but I'll settle for merely "still completely F'd up and unfair": Jimbo Fisher making his $4.1M+ and Jameis Winston making enough ($25K is a decent starting point, I think) via stipend to buy some crab legs every once in a while ... |
I wanna know what exactly makes Sweden a "lousy country," considering the data we have tell us that it's one of the most advanced countries in the world. |
I have no issue with Sweden or greater Scandinavia. The comment re: Sweden was made by another ... |
To derail this thread, Sweden is fuggen amazing. If I could get work out there I'd be there in a heartbeat.
In any event, Oliverreed's "rant" was worthy of an ESPN user post. Short on content, long on unfounded speculation, terrible leaps of logic and strawmen to boot. The quad-fecta of bad posts.
Last edited by jonnybravo on Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:42 am Post subject: Re: John Oliver destroys the NCAA |
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I agreed with what he was saying, but it was a pretty "no duh" point -- the NCAA are a bunch of hypocrites. I have to admit I only watched a few minutes before I got tired of it. I found his approach too histrionic for my taste. |
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GoldenThroat
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Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 37474
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| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Oliver Reed wrote: | | I'm stating reality here. Go run your own business and then come talk to me. Do the athletes have to worry about benefits, academic standards, property taxes, state laws, bills, enrollment, managing staffs, making sure parking structures need to be fixed, make sure classrooms are lit. No. They don't. |
Do the employees of a business have to worry about those things? No, they don't. Weird analogy on your part.
| Oliver Reed wrote: | | They sit back, get opportunities to learn without one dime coming out of their pocket or their parents pockets. The ability to educate themselves so they can better themselves for the future. And so on.... |
Sort of like unpaid interns, eh? We know how much these "opportunities" matter to a lot of the kids. These sorts of patronizing arguments have become increasingly tenuous.
| Oliver Reed wrote: | | Universities have to continue to lose money in several sports because of Title IX. |
Dang, it's terrible that universities have to take some of the profits from football and basketball and use them to subsidize women's athletics. What an outrage.
Anyway, this is a non sequitur on your part. The legitimate gripe about Title IX is its impact on fringe men's sports like wrestling, not its financial impact on schools. Wrestling isn't a revenue sport, either. Without Title IX, schools would lose money on fringe men's sports instead of women's sports.
| Oliver Reed wrote: | | There are only a handful of players on a team that actually have a legit gripe about the pay structure in college sports. |
Huh? There is no pay structure in college sports.
| Oliver Reed wrote: | | If you start paying even one athlete in college, you have opened a box that even Pandora would blush at. It can not happen and will not happen. I do not care how fair or unfair it is. You start paying amateurs, college sports is done. Colleges will lose money and then some other entity will have to come in and try to fix the (bleep) storm it creates. |
Yeah, right. Clearly, you don't realize the extent to which schools are making money on football and basketball. The real impact would not be on profits and losses, but rather on the rich vs. poor divide among schools. When you get past the power five conferences in football, the revenue level drops off fairly quickly. The mid majors would be finished in top level football because a lot of them couldn't afford to pay players, at least not at the same level as schools like Texas, Alabama, and Ohio State.
But that is going to happen anyway, regardless of whether athletes get paid. It's just a question of how soon. As an alumnus of a school that was once in the Southwest Conference and is now in Conference USA, I've been watching it coming for 20 years.
| Oliver Reed wrote: | | If you need an example, look what happen to the Olympics the last 20 years. |
I'll bite. What happened to the Olympics in the last 20 years?
| Oliver Reed wrote: | | Fans in Michigan come in droves to Ann Arbor. All college fans say the same thing, they love the amateur game because its kids playing for something. Pro game is watered down entitles aholes. Thats why ann arbor fills 100K+ and the Lions can only hold 60K. As well as all the other pro teams. |
Kids playing for something? No, it's kids playing for free.
Actually, your UofM reference just highlights the unseemliness of the present system. Yeah, 100k+ of rabid UofM fans show up for games to be entertained by unpaid kids. And some of them actually think this is virtuous because it's amateur athletics.
| Oliver Reed wrote: | | Imagine this for a second. Imagine college athletes getting paid, and then imagine the agents, the managers, the boosters lying back and saying, ok, we do not have to pay them anymore. OH, yah, you cant imagine. Because it wouldn't. It would get worse. It will cause one big cluster eff. because then, if the colleges or NCAA enforce agents and managers and the booster giving the player more money, they will be able to come back and use the "it's unfair that the colleges and the NCAA pay them but we cant". |
That's a weird argument. That's like saying "How do we stop kids from playing on Saturday for a college team and on Sunday for an NFL team?" Just because you can imagine some scenario doesn't mean that it is likely to happen.
| Oliver Reed wrote: | | There are options for both basketball players and football players. You do not want to be exploited? Play in Canada for 3 years, get paid and then get drafted. Warren Moon did it, you didnt see him crying like all these babies and he didnt get a chance because he was freakin Black. |
I thought you said that there were no undertones in what you're saying. Oops. I guess those undertones just boiled to the surface.
Just for the record, Warren Moon went to the University of Washington. He played in the CFL because none of the NFL teams took him in the draft. So, other than the fact that you have it all wrong, that's a great point.
| Oliver Reed wrote: | | Basketball players are already playing overseas so there you go. This is America. You have choices. Life isn't (bleep) fair. We kids use to hear that a lot growing up. Now, we have to hear how it is never our fault, its THEM. Every damn corporation is corrupt in America. NCAA, GE, Microsoft, doesn't freakin matter. You wanna live where everything is fair and equal, go move to Sweden or some lousy country like that. We individuality is looked sacrilege. So I heard.... |
Let me guess. You're mad as hell, and you're not going to take it anymore? |
Ouch. |
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lakersken80
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| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:10 am Post subject: |
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Poor guy, I don't think he'll be back in this thread... 
That was like watching Kobe score 81 points all over again. |
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GoldenThroat
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| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:21 am Post subject: |
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| While I fully support the notion that college athletes should be paid, the implementation of it comes with a ton of questions. Do you just pay athletes in the revenue generating sports? Does Jameis Winston make as much as the 3rd string kicker? Do you put a cap on what each school can pay, so mid-majors aren't unduly punished? Answering the question of whether or not athletes should be paid for generating nearly $1B in annual revenue (duh) is only the beginning. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:16 am Post subject: |
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| For sure. It's not simple. But then, we really aren't talking about a free market system. More realistically, we'd be looking at some with a modest cap, say $10k per year. It could either be a fixed amount per player, or it could be a lump sum pool that a coach could allocate as he sees fit. The devil is in the details, but something like this is eventually going to happen. After the O'Bannon ruling, the schools have to be worried that this is going to be externally imposed by the courts under the antitrust laws. |
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GoldenThroat
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Joined: 25 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:32 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | For sure. It's not simple. But then, we really aren't talking about a free market system. More realistically, we'd be looking at some with a modest cap, say $10k per year. It could either be a fixed amount per player, or it could be a lump sum pool that a coach could allocate as he sees fit. The devil is in the details, but something like this is eventually going to happen. After the O'Bannon ruling, the schools have to be worried that this is going to be externally imposed by the courts under the antitrust laws. |
Do you think their worry is enough to compel them to proactively implement a system where they're compensating players? Personally, I don't think we're at that point as of yet. While the O'Bannon ruling is significant, it seems to be specific enough where they can make minor adjustments to how they market and profit off of the athletes, without having to make major overhauls to the system.
Do you think we're close to a significant chance in how the NCAA operates? |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | Do you think their worry is enough to compel them to proactively implement a system where they're compensating players? Personally, I don't think we're at that point as of yet. While the O'Bannon ruling is significant, it seems to be specific enough where they can make minor adjustments to how they market and profit off of the athletes, without having to make major overhauls to the system.
Do you think we're close to a significant chance in how the NCAA operates? |
The NCAA allowed the power five conferences to go to a cost of attendance model. That's the first step. This will grow over time. Again, I don't think it will ever get to the point of a market salary model.
Edit: For those of you who aren't familiar with the cost of attendance model, read this. As one of the people quoted in the article says, this is not a "destination." It's just the first step.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/college/2015/01/17/ncaa-convention-cost-of-attendance-student-athletes-scholarships/21921073/ |
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Drifts
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| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | While I fully support the notion that college athletes should be paid, the implementation of it comes with a ton of questions. Do you just pay athletes in the revenue generating sports? Does Jameis Winston make as much as the 3rd string kicker? Do you put a cap on what each school can pay, so mid-majors aren't unduly punished? Answering the question of whether or not athletes should be paid for generating nearly $1B in annual revenue (duh) is only the beginning. |
these questions are the reasons why this will never happen. it just doesn't make sense. if we want student athletes to be paid, then it would be better for those who want to be paid to jump straight to the NBDL... it's the proper "school" for NBA aspirants.
but then, there are other kids who would actually want to be educated and might want to take advantage of the free education being offered for student athletes.
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"Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it." |
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vanexelent
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| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Drifts wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | While I fully support the notion that college athletes should be paid, the implementation of it comes with a ton of questions. Do you just pay athletes in the revenue generating sports? Does Jameis Winston make as much as the 3rd string kicker? Do you put a cap on what each school can pay, so mid-majors aren't unduly punished? Answering the question of whether or not athletes should be paid for generating nearly $1B in annual revenue (duh) is only the beginning. |
these questions are the reasons why this will never happen. it just doesn't make sense. if we want student athletes to be paid, then it would be better for those who want to be paid to jump straight to the NBDL... it's the proper "school" for NBA aspirants.
but then, there are other kids who would actually want to be educated and might want to take advantage of the free education being offered for student athletes. |
If the NBDL paid a good salary, then they could make a good living and could afford to go to college in the off season. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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| vanexelent wrote: | | Drifts wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | While I fully support the notion that college athletes should be paid, the implementation of it comes with a ton of questions. Do you just pay athletes in the revenue generating sports? Does Jameis Winston make as much as the 3rd string kicker? Do you put a cap on what each school can pay, so mid-majors aren't unduly punished? Answering the question of whether or not athletes should be paid for generating nearly $1B in annual revenue (duh) is only the beginning. |
these questions are the reasons why this will never happen. it just doesn't make sense. if we want student athletes to be paid, then it would be better for those who want to be paid to jump straight to the NBDL... it's the proper "school" for NBA aspirants.
but then, there are other kids who would actually want to be educated and might want to take advantage of the free education being offered for student athletes. |
If the NBDL paid a good salary, then they could make a good living and could afford to go to college in the off season. |
Problem is the d-league doesn't pay well. The top salary is $28k and the salary cap per team is something like $180,000. I don't see the NBA taking a financial hit and losing more money by jacking up D league salaries anytime soon. I've seen no indication the league really wants to get in the player development business; if anything, the league would prefer for players to have to stay in college longer.
A player simply isn't worth as much in the d league as he is in college, because the d league doesn't have the same infrastructure or fan base. |
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non-player zealot
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| Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:20 am Post subject: |
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| Wilt wrote: |
I wanna know what exactly makes Sweden a "lousy country," considering the data we have tell us that it's one of the most advanced countries in the world. |
Haha. Now he's gotta defend himself on the Sweden comment, too. There were some unpleasant undertones to his Sweden statement.
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Oliver Reed
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| Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| jonnybravo wrote: | | the association wrote: | | Wilt wrote: | | the association wrote: | | Oliver Reed wrote: | | the association wrote: | | Oliver Reed wrote: | | Free education. Some of those schools have kids in debt for 40 years after graduation. Free food. Free housing. Priority registration. Free parking. Perks, free clothes. Sounds like they are getting paid to me. Oh, you mean millions? So they can buy 15 cars and houses and all that horse (bleep) that they are going to lose in 10 year anyway? If you do not want to go to college and be "exploited". Then it is YOUR Choice not too. You can wait 3 years after high school to be eligible. and basketball players can go somewhere else to show their skiulls for a year. |
Those kids in debt for 40 years after graduation are invariably NOT at the epicenter of a multi-billion $ enterprise (annually) ... how is that fact lost on you (and others who are so quick to blithely dismiss reality)?
Jameis Winston bears direct responsibility for a significant portion of the tens of millions of dollars in income realized by the Athletics Department at Florida State University over the past few years. On the other hand, the random student majoring in Sociology at FSU didn't deliver a single penny other than his or her (pathetically meager in comparison) tuition to the university's bursar over that period ...
Nobody argues for millions in remuneration for athletes. But since you brought it up, how exactly do you justify the millions that are paid to most Top 25 coaches in men's basketball and football? I ask, because when I checked the statistics for the most recent season, I found that Urban Meyer had zero yards passing, zero yards rushing, zero yards receiving, and zero tackles. Same goes for Kevin Ollie ... that dude didn't score a single point, hit the boards for a single rebound, or rack a single assist last season.
Finally, the "take it or leave it" approach you seem to espouse isn't worth addressing in great detail ... there's a really unpleasant message underlying your comments, so I'll leave that alone b/c I prefer my intolerance in less overt doses. |
There aren't any undertones. Your mind is in the media hype world of undertones. I'm stating reality here. Go run your own business and then come talk to me. Do the athletes have to worry about benefits, academic standards, property taxes, state laws, bills, enrollment, managing staffs, making sure parking structures need to be fixed, make sure classrooms are lit. No. They don't. They sit back, get opportunities to learn without one dime coming out of their pocket or their parents pockets. The ability to educate themselves so they can better themselves for the future. And so on....
Universities have to continue to lose money in several sports because of Title IX. There are only a handful of players on a team that actually have a legit gripe about the pay structure in college sports. If you start paying even one athlete in college, you have opened a box that even Pandora would blush at. It can not happen and will not happen. I do not care how fair or unfair it is. You start paying amateurs, college sports is done. Colleges will lose money and then some other entity will have to come in and try to fix the (bleep) storm it creates. If you need an example, look what happen to the Olympics the last 20 years. Fans in Michigan come in droves to Ann Arbor. All college fans say the same thing, they love the amateur game because its kids playing for something. Pro game is watered down entitles aholes. Thats why ann arbor fills 100K+ and the Lions can only hold 60K. As well as all the other pro teams.
Imagine this for a second. Imagine college athletes getting paid, and then imagine the agents, the managers, the boosters lying back and saying, ok, we do not have to pay them anymore. OH, yah, you cant imagine. Because it wouldn't. It would get worse. It will cause one big cluster eff. because then, if the colleges or NCAA enforce agents and managers and the booster giving the player more money, they will be able to come back and use the "it's unfair that the colleges and the NCAA pay them but we cant".
There are options for both basketball players and football players. You do not want to be exploited? Play in Canada for 3 years, get paid and then get drafted. Warren Moon did it, you didnt see him crying like all these babies and he didnt get a chance because he was freakin Black. Basketball players are already playing overseas so there you go. This is America. You have choices. Life isn't (bleep) fair. We kids use to hear that a lot growing up. Now, we have to hear how it is never our fault, its THEM. Every damn corporation is corrupt in America. NCAA, GE, Microsoft, doesn't freakin matter. You wanna live where everything is fair and equal, go move to Sweden or some lousy country like that. We individuality is looked sacrilege. So I heard.... |
You fail to explain why coaches are worth millions in compensation, yet not one of them has to spend a moment worrying about the crumbling parking structures, the lecture hall lighting, or those troublesome state laws.
You fail to address the BILLIONS in revenue EVERY YEAR that are only possible through the hard work of those athletes.
You suggest that it's true, but fail to provide any authority for your argument that athletes on the women's soccer and men's swimming teams MUST be funded / compensated the same amount as the those on the football and men's basketball teams. I don't think Title IX goes that far ...
You fail to mention that all of those insidious elements like dishonest boosters, disruptive player agents, etc. ALREADY exist and operate with impunity, out in the open and right under the noses of most major universities ...
You fail to explain what all of those Big House attendees will do with their new free time in bustling, metropolitan Ann Arbor without Big Blue to entertain them many Saturdays in the Fall?
You just fail ... over and over again.
But I'll tell you what I like A LOT: seeing someone like you appear so desperately anxious to keep things exactly as they are, and to cross your arms with the "life's not fair, take it or leave it" nonsense, my view that reform is necessary is affirmed 100x over again.
Fair is Jameis Winston making $4.1M+ this year and Jimbo Fisher making $250K ... but I'll settle for merely "still completely F'd up and unfair": Jimbo Fisher making his $4.1M+ and Jameis Winston making enough ($25K is a decent starting point, I think) via stipend to buy some crab legs every once in a while ... |
I wanna know what exactly makes Sweden a "lousy country," considering the data we have tell us that it's one of the most advanced countries in the world. |
I have no issue with Sweden or greater Scandinavia. The comment re: Sweden was made by another ... |
To derail this thread, Sweden is fuggen amazing. If I could get work out there I'd be there in a heartbeat.
In any event, Oliverreed's "rant" was worthy of an ESPN user post. Short on content, long on unfounded speculation, terrible leaps of logic and strawmen to boot. The quad-fecta of bad posts. |
Bad post because you do not agree. That's the way of the world. Enjoy your paid college athlete and everything being fair in life. Maybe one day everyone in here will see Santa Claus coming down the chimney on Christmas night.
Remember this too, for the Pulitzer Prize winner in literature replies. No one is putting a gun to their heads and making them sign letters of intent. You think it's so horrible, then don't do it. Maybe all those doctors who have to go thru 10 years of school and residency before they can make money in their profession should complain about how the medical world makes brillions in drugs and medical devices, why can't they get a piece while they work at hospitals that make money while they work for nothing or very little.
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| Oliver Reed wrote: | | Bad post because you do not agree. That's the way of the world. Enjoy your paid college athlete and everything being fair in life. Maybe one day everyone in here will see Santa Claus coming down the chimney on Christmas night. |
Wow, you really told us off!
| Oliver Reed wrote: | | Remember this too, for the Pulitzer Prize winner in literature replies. No one is putting a gun to their heads and making them sign letters of intent. You think it's so horrible, then don't do it. |
It's not compulsory, so it must be fair. Gotcha.
Seriously, though, this is the sort of argument that is breaking down in the legal system. Whether it be the antitrust laws, or the labor laws, or state tort laws (in the case of kids who get hurt while playing NCAA sports), the pressure is mounting on the system. How do you run a multi-billion dollar industry under the pretense that the workers are student-athletes?
Imagine a manufacturing company that pays a dollar an hour and kicks injured workers to the curb. Then the company says "no one is putting a gun to your head" and "You think it's so horrible, then don't do it." This could never happen, of course, because we have minimum wage laws, job site safety laws, and workers compensation laws. Yet some people would make the same arguments about college athletes who are the workers in a billion dollar industry.
Even if the legal challenges fail in the short run, they have exposed the hypocrisy of the system. Personally, I expect the reforms to come from within and not from without, though part of the motivation will be to preempt the legal issues. The cost of attendance model is the first step on the path.
I don't foresee a scenario in which college athletes have agents and negotiated salaries, etc. That would sink the ship of college sports. But I do believe that we are going to see a system in which football players don't have to commit petty crimes or take money from boosters just to eat or to be able to take a girl to the movies. That's the other side of the equation: the big schools want to get away from that, too. The NCAA and its amateurism rules are caught in the middle, and they are slowly losing the war.
| Oliver Reed wrote: | | Maybe all those doctors who have to go thru 10 years of school and residency before they can make money in their profession should complain about how the medical world makes brillions in drugs and medical devices, why can't they get a piece while they work at hospitals that make money while they work for nothing or very little. |
You do realize that doctors get paid during their residencies, right? No, I guess you don't. Anyway, what's the connection between young doctors and the profits of pharmaceutical companies? Wait, never mind. I think you ought to stay away from tricky things like analogies. |
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vanexelent
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| Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:21 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | Drifts wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | While I fully support the notion that college athletes should be paid, the implementation of it comes with a ton of questions. Do you just pay athletes in the revenue generating sports? Does Jameis Winston make as much as the 3rd string kicker? Do you put a cap on what each school can pay, so mid-majors aren't unduly punished? Answering the question of whether or not athletes should be paid for generating nearly $1B in annual revenue (duh) is only the beginning. |
these questions are the reasons why this will never happen. it just doesn't make sense. if we want student athletes to be paid, then it would be better for those who want to be paid to jump straight to the NBDL... it's the proper "school" for NBA aspirants.
but then, there are other kids who would actually want to be educated and might want to take advantage of the free education being offered for student athletes. |
If the NBDL paid a good salary, then they could make a good living and could afford to go to college in the off season. |
Problem is the d-league doesn't pay well. The top salary is $28k and the salary cap per team is something like $180,000. I don't see the NBA taking a financial hit and losing more money by jacking up D league salaries anytime soon. I've seen no indication the league really wants to get in the player development business; if anything, the league would prefer for players to have to stay in college longer.
A player simply isn't worth as much in the d league as he is in college, because the d league doesn't have the same infrastructure or fan base. |
Oh, I know. Why would they want to invest when the NCAA does it for them for free? But, if the NBA does raise the age limit, and the NCAA doesn't do anything about compensation, then I think we'll see more players going to Europe instead of college. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| vanexelent wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | Drifts wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | While I fully support the notion that college athletes should be paid, the implementation of it comes with a ton of questions. Do you just pay athletes in the revenue generating sports? Does Jameis Winston make as much as the 3rd string kicker? Do you put a cap on what each school can pay, so mid-majors aren't unduly punished? Answering the question of whether or not athletes should be paid for generating nearly $1B in annual revenue (duh) is only the beginning. |
these questions are the reasons why this will never happen. it just doesn't make sense. if we want student athletes to be paid, then it would be better for those who want to be paid to jump straight to the NBDL... it's the proper "school" for NBA aspirants.
but then, there are other kids who would actually want to be educated and might want to take advantage of the free education being offered for student athletes. |
If the NBDL paid a good salary, then they could make a good living and could afford to go to college in the off season. |
Problem is the d-league doesn't pay well. The top salary is $28k and the salary cap per team is something like $180,000. I don't see the NBA taking a financial hit and losing more money by jacking up D league salaries anytime soon. I've seen no indication the league really wants to get in the player development business; if anything, the league would prefer for players to have to stay in college longer.
A player simply isn't worth as much in the d league as he is in college, because the d league doesn't have the same infrastructure or fan base. |
Oh, I know. Why would they want to invest when the NCAA does it for them for free? But, if the NBA does raise the age limit, and the NCAA doesn't do anything about compensation, then I think we'll see more players going to Europe instead of college. |
I think the number of players who opt for Europe will remain relatively small. It's a huge adjustment for a player, especially if he goes to a place where English isn't the first language. My guess is players will just stay an extra year in college, except for those who are academically ineligible.
You have to remember only about 40 college players enter the NBA in a any given year -- it's a really small universe of players. And if a few of them play in Europe rather than college, I doubt that would be a big deal to the NBA. |
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