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Dreamshake
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 Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| shaq3234 wrote: | | Could be wrong, but I don't see Howard ever being the guy he was prior to injury. Guy is still a net positive on defense, but the lack of offense (and mobility) will rear its ugly head come playoff time. |
I don't think he will ever be a superstar again but I think he can still be impactful as a defender and finisher. The key will be how many minutes he can play. If this minutes restriction is a permanent thing then that's bad, considering his contract. |
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Dreamshake
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| Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:28 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | One, James is just as immature as Dwight. They're about the same maturity wise. What Dwight probably finds funny and "culturally" appealing, James does as well. In fact I'd suggest that James actually looks up to Dwight a bit and goes to him for advise. In contrast to LA, Kobe and Dwight didn't have that relationship. Kobe didn't like Dwight's personality and vice-versa. |
I haven't seen anything from Harden to suggest he's immature.
| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Second, McHale commands respect from his players in a way MDA and Brown can only dream of. |
Now this is true. I personally think McHale isn't that good of a coach, but his players to seem to enjoy playing for him.
| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | All that said, I don't think HOU will win a ring with the set up they have. They will need 1-2 more quality veteran role players like Ariza was this past summer. |
If Howard is no longer playing at an elite level then we won't win unless we get another star in. It's damn near impossible to win a title without multiple players playing at an elite level. I think the team would have a good shot if Howard was still an elite player. They have basically been a top team without him, or any real interior defensive presence. |
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Dreamshake
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| Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | Is there anything of substance in that quote? Does it say, "I'll stop posting up on 50% of my possessions used because I'm terrible at it", or are we just projecting that? |
The substance piece is him noting he will adjust to Harden. Supposedely the team has been telling him that they want him to focus on a different role while he has been sidelined. McHale is on record that he will have to fit in with how the team has been playing. And the following quote:
| Quote: | | "I definitely needed to hear that, and he told it to me. So right there that gave me all the confidence in the world, not to try to force it to get him into a rhythm or try to do anything forceful. I can just play my game. Him telling me that just gave me the green light to just go out there and just be the James Harden that I've been being all season." |
Talk is cheap, but we shall see. |
It's just that the language is so vague. The solution to Houston getting the most out of their roster with Dwight on the court is simple. He needs to stop posting up. He is off the charts on nearly every other play type other than posting up, yet that comprises a good 50% of his used possessions. He's generating 0.72 PPP on his post ups this year, and that's consistent with what he's produced in the last few years before that.
Things like "deferring" and "play your game" are empty words. What he needs to do is painfully simple. |
That's what I take "deferring, not trying to get you into a rhythm, we aren't changing things for you" to mean. But talk is cheap. |
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Dreamshake
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| Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:33 am Post subject: |
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| SGV-Laker fan wrote: | | Houston's D Howard signing is similar to Angels signing of Puljos, don't you think. both teams got f*cked by those deals. |
How has the Howard signing hurt Houston? The team was barely an 8 seed prior to him coming. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Dreamshake wrote: | | SGV-Laker fan wrote: | | Houston's D Howard signing is similar to Angels signing of Puljos, don't you think. both teams got f*cked by those deals. |
How has the Howard signing hurt Houston? The team was barely an 8 seed prior to him coming. |
By sitting him out the team has played well though. When does he have an opt out? Do you think he will just stay on his current contract?
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TDRock
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| Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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I kept looking at the title of this thread thinking "who is Howard Back???"
Anyway do folks here on this Lakers board still care what D12 does? I've certainly moved on... |
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GoldenThroat
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| Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Dreamshake wrote: | | SGV-Laker fan wrote: | | Houston's D Howard signing is similar to Angels signing of Puljos, don't you think. both teams got f*cked by those deals. |
How has the Howard signing hurt Houston? The team was barely an 8 seed prior to him coming. |
I don't think you've seen how it's hurt you as of yet, but I'd argue that it's lowered your ceiling. You could use your money a lot more efficiently than giving $22.4M to Dwight Howard, and that may prevent you from acquiring the players necessary to become a championship contender. |
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Dreamshake
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| Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | SGV-Laker fan wrote: | | Houston's D Howard signing is similar to Angels signing of Puljos, don't you think. both teams got f*cked by those deals. |
How has the Howard signing hurt Houston? The team was barely an 8 seed prior to him coming. |
By sitting him out the team has played well though. When does he have an opt out? Do you think he will just stay on his current contract? |
He can opt out after next year. I think he will stay under his current deal either way. |
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Dreamshake
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| Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | SGV-Laker fan wrote: | | Houston's D Howard signing is similar to Angels signing of Puljos, don't you think. both teams got f*cked by those deals. |
How has the Howard signing hurt Houston? The team was barely an 8 seed prior to him coming. |
I don't think you've seen how it's hurt you as of yet, but I'd argue that it's lowered your ceiling. You could use your money a lot more efficiently than giving $22.4M to Dwight Howard, and that may prevent you from acquiring the players necessary to become a championship contender. |
If we weren't paying Howard $22.4M there isn't any other player out there that we could have spent our $$ on to make us a contender. Two things:
1) You typically need two star players to contend for a title. There hasn't been a star on the market since we got Howard that would have elevated us to that status.
2) Breaking his salary down into seperate other players wouldn't put us there either. It would basically be Harden surrounded by other good players. Better maybe, but still not a title contender.
If his contract causes us to miss out on acquiring a 3rd star later then I would agree, but the cap is going up, so it shouldn't. |
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Telleris
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| Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | SGV-Laker fan wrote: | | Houston's D Howard signing is similar to Angels signing of Puljos, don't you think. both teams got f*cked by those deals. |
How has the Howard signing hurt Houston? The team was barely an 8 seed prior to him coming. |
I don't think you've seen how it's hurt you as of yet, but I'd argue that it's lowered your ceiling. You could use your money a lot more efficiently than giving $22.4M to Dwight Howard, and that may prevent you from acquiring the players necessary to become a championship contender. |
Such as? the only player they had any shot with last year was Bosh, and it wasn't from lack of space, but 5 year max offer from Miami that kept him there.
This year, there's basically no big names likely to leave their team and next year everyone has cap space.
Cap space is only as useful as what ends up filling it.
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GoldenThroat
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| Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Telleris wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | SGV-Laker fan wrote: | | Houston's D Howard signing is similar to Angels signing of Puljos, don't you think. both teams got f*cked by those deals. |
How has the Howard signing hurt Houston? The team was barely an 8 seed prior to him coming. |
I don't think you've seen how it's hurt you as of yet, but I'd argue that it's lowered your ceiling. You could use your money a lot more efficiently than giving $22.4M to Dwight Howard, and that may prevent you from acquiring the players necessary to become a championship contender. |
Such as? the only player they had any shot with last year was Bosh, and it wasn't from lack of space, but 5 year max offer from Miami that kept him there.
This year, there's basically no big names likely to leave their team and next year everyone has cap space. |
I disagree with Dreamshake, and the idea that you need two stars in order to win. The reigning NBA champion's second "star" (Duncan) is only one by reputation these days, rather than production. Far more than one way to skin this cat. I'm surprised to hear this old paradigm touted by fans who are as fluent in analytics as Rockets fans are.
For example, Kyle Lowry and Pau Gasol will combine to make about $3M less than Howard will make next year. There was even mutual interest between Lowry & Houston, but they needed Toronto to facilitate a S&T, which wasn't going to happen. You guys would be title contenders with that roster. $22.4M (and rising) to Howard is going to prevent you guys from fielding a title team. |
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Dreamshake
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| Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | I disagree with Dreamshake, and the idea that you need two stars in order to win. The reigning NBA champion's second "star" (Duncan) is only one by reputation these days, rather than production. Far more than one way to skin this cat. I'm surprised to hear this old paradigm touted by fans who are as fluent in analytics as Rockets fans are. |
Since the 80's a team without two stars has only won the title five times, including the analytics era. It's an anomaly. And what's opened the West up for SA the last two years is a multi-star OKC having a significant piece miss the last 3 postseasons.
| GoldenThroat wrote: | | For example, Kyle Lowry and Pau Gasol will combine to make about $3M less than Howard will make next year. There was even mutual interest between Lowry & Houston, but they needed Toronto to facilitate a S&T, which wasn't going to happen. You guys would be title contenders with that roster. $22.4M (and rising) to Howard is going to prevent you guys from fielding a title team. |
I think that's a good example but I still don't think we would be a contender with those two. Adding those two, we still have a worse starting PG AND frontcourt than the Warriors, Grizzlies, Blazers, Clippers and Spurs. No one would pick us to beat those teams in a series with a healthy Howard, which is > Gasol & Lowry.
Lowry also wanted to have the team built around him in Toronto.
Edit: I do think that's a better team than what we have with a gimpy Howard. I just wouldn't pick that team to win the title either.
Last edited by Dreamshake on Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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KobeBryantCliffordBrown
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| Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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Holy Cow! Seriously, don't they have a Rocket forum or something? Who gives a (bleep) about that clown douche bag D12 or his flopping bearded man running buddy?
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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LG translation: You can be the man, I am tired of being blamed for losing.
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ocho
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| Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | Holy Cow! Seriously, don't they have a Rocket forum or something? Who gives a (bleep) about that clown douche bag D12 or his flopping bearded man running buddy? |
They do, but Dreamshake likes to troll here. He's not mean spirited about it so he's been able to stick around. Chalk it up to an inferiority complex. Kinda like how Clippers fans think they've got a real hot rivalry going on with us. |
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eureca
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| Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| I never looked at Dreamshake as a troll at all. I personally don't mind other team fans coming here to discuss their team or our team. Same goes for Basketball Fan. As long as the other teams fan keep it nice and civil and aren't an actual troll. Dreamshake has been here for 10 years. I think we just tend to be much more annoyed with Rockets stuff after they got Dwight. He is just starting a discussion about his team like he has always done. |
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City_Dawg
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| Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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Speaking of trolls, whatever happened to PhillyDoc?
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TDRock
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| Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | Holy Cow! Seriously, don't they have a Rocket forum or something? Who gives a (bleep) about that clown douche bag D12 or his flopping bearded man running buddy? |
Werd. |
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Telleris
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| Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | Telleris wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | SGV-Laker fan wrote: | | Houston's D Howard signing is similar to Angels signing of Puljos, don't you think. both teams got f*cked by those deals. |
How has the Howard signing hurt Houston? The team was barely an 8 seed prior to him coming. |
I don't think you've seen how it's hurt you as of yet, but I'd argue that it's lowered your ceiling. You could use your money a lot more efficiently than giving $22.4M to Dwight Howard, and that may prevent you from acquiring the players necessary to become a championship contender. |
Such as? the only player they had any shot with last year was Bosh, and it wasn't from lack of space, but 5 year max offer from Miami that kept him there.
This year, there's basically no big names likely to leave their team and next year everyone has cap space. |
I disagree with Dreamshake, and the idea that you need two stars in order to win. The reigning NBA champion's second "star" (Duncan) is only one by reputation these days, rather than production. Far more than one way to skin this cat. I'm surprised to hear this old paradigm touted by fans who are as fluent in analytics as Rockets fans are.
For example, Kyle Lowry and Pau Gasol will combine to make about $3M less than Howard will make next year. There was even mutual interest between Lowry & Houston, but they needed Toronto to facilitate a S&T, which wasn't going to happen. You guys would be title contenders with that roster. $22.4M (and rising) to Howard is going to prevent you guys from fielding a title team. |
Analytics tells you the most likely route to a championship involves 3 players, one in the top 95 percentile, one in the top 90 percentile and a third in the top 79 percentile, if you think it's a way to win without stars then you're operating in a straw man view of analytics.
90% of champions had players in that group, the Spurs are a terrible example of what you're suggesting, they're a team who won 4 titles while Duncan was still a legit star, and only one since.
If you go back through the champions, the first team who has no legit shot at claiming they had that group of 3 was the 93-94 Rockets, which had the only player to ever win MVP, DPOY and Finals MVP in the same year.
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Last edited by Telleris on Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:16 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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OregonLakerGuy
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| Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| I didn't even check this thread because I didn't know who this Howard Back guy was. |
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22
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| Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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I remember a quote from Dwight earlier in the year saying he wanted to play like deandre Jordan 
That's exactly why Kobe told this dude to be his Tyson Chandler a long time ago!! Dwight has no hoop iq whatsoever. Can't stand him as a basketball player |
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Lakers2015
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| Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | So all it took was a major injury for him to defer to Harden. Oh wait, wasn't he hurt on the Lakers and he...never mind. |
You can go back to Howard's introductory LA press conference and hear the same types of comments about deferring. It's quite possible his injuries and lack of success have humbled him. Deferring to Harden is the smart move. If only we had had the idea of having Howard sublimate his offensive game and defer to better scorers we could have really had something. |
Won't matter. Rockets still aren't winning a championship.
They can maybe win a round if they matchup with Portland or Dallas otherwise they're a first round exit again.
They just don't have the depth or the defense to win it all. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | For example, Kyle Lowry and Pau Gasol will combine to make about $3M less than Howard will make next year. There was even mutual interest between Lowry & Houston, but they needed Toronto to facilitate a S&T, which wasn't going to happen. You guys would be title contenders with that roster. $22.4M (and rising) to Howard is going to prevent you guys from fielding a title team. |
The kind of deal the Bulls got on Gasol doesn't happen often. Chicago was just in the right place at the right time and got him at far below market value, but you can't create a player acquisition strategy on the hope of being lucky. |
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KeepItRealOrElse
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| Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | For example, Kyle Lowry and Pau Gasol will combine to make about $3M less than Howard will make next year. There was even mutual interest between Lowry & Houston, but they needed Toronto to facilitate a S&T, which wasn't going to happen. You guys would be title contenders with that roster. $22.4M (and rising) to Howard is going to prevent you guys from fielding a title team. |
The kind of deal the Bulls got on Gasol doesn't happen often. Chicago was just in the right place at the right time and got him at far below market value, but you can't create a player acquisition strategy on the hope of being lucky. |
Even if Pau were at 12mil per, that's 24 mil between him and Lowry. The Rockets could have found a way to afford that.
Lowry, harden, Ariza, Mentejunas, Pau -- that's a true contender. Which I dont think the Rockets are right now |
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Dreamshake
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| Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:53 am Post subject: |
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| KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | For example, Kyle Lowry and Pau Gasol will combine to make about $3M less than Howard will make next year. There was even mutual interest between Lowry & Houston, but they needed Toronto to facilitate a S&T, which wasn't going to happen. You guys would be title contenders with that roster. $22.4M (and rising) to Howard is going to prevent you guys from fielding a title team. |
The kind of deal the Bulls got on Gasol doesn't happen often. Chicago was just in the right place at the right time and got him at far below market value, but you can't create a player acquisition strategy on the hope of being lucky. |
Even if Pau were at 12mil per, that's 24 mil between him and Lowry. The Rockets could have found a way to afford that.
Lowry, harden, Ariza, Mentejunas, Pau -- that's a true contender. Which I dont think the Rockets are right now |
No one thought Houston would be a contender with a healthy Howard, which is more valuable than Lowry and Gasol. But they would be a contender with those two instead? |
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