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pio2u
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Wilkes52
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 Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:23 am Post subject: |
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Freaking finally, Spencer Haywood gets into the hall. Dang right.
A lot of folks don't know who he was. He was a great player in college and in the ABA and NBA, and he was an Olympic champion for the USA in a Summer when Kareem Abdul-Jabbar tried to lead a boycott of the team. But Haywood was more than that too.
He should be famous - not infamous - for having forced the NBA to court with his challenge of the NBA's rule on draft rights. Haywood became the pivotal figure in establishing what came to be known as the "hardship case" ruling, later reaffirmed by the Supreme Court. I think many NBA owners held this change against the player for many years.
What I remember most about Spencer Haywood's game was his unusually quick jump, which helped him rebound among giants, and how well this quickness set up his high arching turnaround jumper, after a dribble dribble across the key. A slightly smaller Elvin Hayes. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| Wilkes52 wrote: | Freaking finally, Spencer Haywood gets into the hall. Dang right.
A lot of folks don't know who he was. He was a great player in college and in the ABA and NBA, and he was an Olympic champion for the USA in a Summer when Kareem Abdul-Jabbar tried to lead a boycott of the team. But Haywood was more than that too.
He should be famous - not infamous - for having forced the NBA to court with his challenge of the NBA's rule on draft rights. Haywood became the pivotal figure in establishing what came to be known as the "hardship case" ruling, later reaffirmed by the Supreme Court. I think many NBA owners held this change against the player for many years.
What I remember most about Spencer Haywood's game was his unusually quick jump, which helped him rebound among giants, and how well this quickness set up his high arching turnaround jumper, after a dribble dribble across the key. A slightly smaller Elvin Hayes. |
Spencer had a great, but relatively short career. He started to decline in his mid-20s and got bounced out of the league because of cocaine problems. He got kicked off the Lakers in the middle of the finals because of his drug problems.
Personally, Jojo White is more of a question mark to me -- they tend to rubber stamp the Celtics so I don't know why he took so long to get in. |
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Wilkes52
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| Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | Wilkes52 wrote: | Freaking finally, Spencer Haywood gets into the hall. Dang right.
A lot of folks don't know who he was. He was a great player in college and in the ABA and NBA, and he was an Olympic champion for the USA in a Summer when Kareem Abdul-Jabbar tried to lead a boycott of the team. But Haywood was more than that too.
He should be famous - not infamous - for having forced the NBA to court with his challenge of the NBA's rule on draft rights. Haywood became the pivotal figure in establishing what came to be known as the "hardship case" ruling, later reaffirmed by the Supreme Court. I think many NBA owners held this change against the player for many years.
What I remember most about Spencer Haywood's game was his unusually quick jump, which helped him rebound among giants, and how well this quickness set up his high arching turnaround jumper, after a dribble dribble across the key. A slightly smaller Elvin Hayes. |
Spencer had a great, but relatively short career. He started to decline in his mid-20s and got bounced out of the league because of cocaine problems. He got kicked off the Lakers in the middle of the finals because of his drug problems.
Personally, Jojo White is more of a question mark to me -- they tend to rubber stamp the Celtics so I don't know why he took so long to get in. |
I suppose Jo Jo got the call ultimately not so much for his being a Celtic, but for being the second or third best player player on two Celtic championship-winning teams ('74, '76). He had an excellent college career as well.
Former Celtic Cornbread Maxwell will face similar and probably tougher scrutiny, and will probably not make the grade. He had more help around him in '81 and '84. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Wilkes52 wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Wilkes52 wrote: | Freaking finally, Spencer Haywood gets into the hall. Dang right.
A lot of folks don't know who he was. He was a great player in college and in the ABA and NBA, and he was an Olympic champion for the USA in a Summer when Kareem Abdul-Jabbar tried to lead a boycott of the team. But Haywood was more than that too.
He should be famous - not infamous - for having forced the NBA to court with his challenge of the NBA's rule on draft rights. Haywood became the pivotal figure in establishing what came to be known as the "hardship case" ruling, later reaffirmed by the Supreme Court. I think many NBA owners held this change against the player for many years.
What I remember most about Spencer Haywood's game was his unusually quick jump, which helped him rebound among giants, and how well this quickness set up his high arching turnaround jumper, after a dribble dribble across the key. A slightly smaller Elvin Hayes. |
Spencer had a great, but relatively short career. He started to decline in his mid-20s and got bounced out of the league because of cocaine problems. He got kicked off the Lakers in the middle of the finals because of his drug problems.
Personally, Jojo White is more of a question mark to me -- they tend to rubber stamp the Celtics so I don't know why he took so long to get in. |
I suppose Jo Jo got the call ultimately not so much for his being a Celtic, but for being the second or third best player player on two Celtic championship-winning teams ('74, '76). He had an excellent college career as well.
Former Celtic Cornbread Maxwell will face similar and probably tougher scrutiny, and will probably not make the grade. He had more help around him in '81 and '84. |
Jo Jo was a great player -- he made 7 all-star teams and 2 all-NBA teams. Cedric wasn't close to being on the same level. Cedric was a solid player who happened to win a Finals MVP or else he'd be totally forgotten today.
I'd consider Jo Jo to be a borderline Hall of Famer and Cedric to be a guy who doesn't even deserve consideration. |
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carlosLisboa
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| Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:10 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | Wilkes52 wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Wilkes52 wrote: | Freaking finally, Spencer Haywood gets into the hall. Dang right.
A lot of folks don't know who he was. He was a great player in college and in the ABA and NBA, and he was an Olympic champion for the USA in a Summer when Kareem Abdul-Jabbar tried to lead a boycott of the team. But Haywood was more than that too.
He should be famous - not infamous - for having forced the NBA to court with his challenge of the NBA's rule on draft rights. Haywood became the pivotal figure in establishing what came to be known as the "hardship case" ruling, later reaffirmed by the Supreme Court. I think many NBA owners held this change against the player for many years.
What I remember most about Spencer Haywood's game was his unusually quick jump, which helped him rebound among giants, and how well this quickness set up his high arching turnaround jumper, after a dribble dribble across the key. A slightly smaller Elvin Hayes. |
Spencer had a great, but relatively short career. He started to decline in his mid-20s and got bounced out of the league because of cocaine problems. He got kicked off the Lakers in the middle of the finals because of his drug problems.
Personally, Jojo White is more of a question mark to me -- they tend to rubber stamp the Celtics so I don't know why he took so long to get in. |
I suppose Jo Jo got the call ultimately not so much for his being a Celtic, but for being the second or third best player player on two Celtic championship-winning teams ('74, '76). He had an excellent college career as well.
Former Celtic Cornbread Maxwell will face similar and probably tougher scrutiny, and will probably not make the grade. He had more help around him in '81 and '84. |
Jo Jo was a great player -- he made 7 all-star teams and 2 all-NBA teams. Cedric wasn't close to being on the same level. Cedric was a solid player who happened to win a Finals MVP or else he'd be totally forgotten today.
I'd consider Jo Jo to be a borderline Hall of Famer and Cedric to be a guy who doesn't even deserve consideration. |
Is the HoF in sales season?
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 6:19 am Post subject: |
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The Basketball Hall of Fame seems determined to cheapen itself. There probably needs to be a time limit similar to what they have in baseball. Seriously, the Hall of Fame is down to mining second tier stars from the '70s.
Jo Jo White was a very good player, but come on. Again, he went 30+ years without making the Hall, and got elected by guys who probably don't remember him well. When you run similarity scores, the contemporary players who come up are Rip Hamilton, Jason Richardson, Allen Houston, and John Starks. Really?
At least Haywood was genuinely regarded as one of the best players in the league for a few years, but when it takes 30+ years for him to make the Hall, it means that he probably doesn't belong. Like Jo Jo, he was elected by guys who probably don't remember him (and his problems) well. At least his similarity scores turn up some bona fide HoF caliber players among contemporary players: Grant Hill, Peja, TMac, CWebb. The top name on the list is RudyT. These are guys who burned brightly, but then burned out for one reason or another. I can live with guys like that being in the HoF, but again, if it takes 30+ years, he probably doesn't belong.
But Tommy Heinsohn as a coach? He only coached for nine years, and he only coached the Celtics. Sure, he won a couple titles, but when the heck did Tommy Freaking Heinsohn become a Hall of Fame caliber coach?
It's sort of embarrassing that this eleven member class is headlined by Lisa Leslie and Dick Bavetta. I guess Mutombo is an okay pick. It's good to see a defensive player get recognized. |
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carlosLisboa
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| Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 6:26 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | The Basketball Hall of Fame seems determined to cheapen itself. There probably needs to be a time limit similar to what they have in baseball. Seriously, the Hall of Fame is down to mining second tier stars from the '70s.
Jo Jo White was a very good player, but come on. Again, he went 30+ years without making the Hall, and got elected by guys who probably don't remember him well. When you run similarity scores, the contemporary players who come up are Rip Hamilton, Jason Richardson, Allen Houston, and John Starks. Really?
At least Haywood was genuinely regarded as one of the best players in the league for a few years, but when it takes 30+ years for him to make the Hall, it means that he probably doesn't belong. Like Jo Jo, he was elected by guys who probably don't remember him (and his problems) well. At least his similarity scores turn up some bona fide HoF caliber players among contemporary players: Grant Hill, Peja, TMac, CWebb. The top name on the list is RudyT. These are guys who burned brightly, but then burned out for one reason or another. I can live with guys like that being in the HoF, but again, if it takes 30+ years, he probably doesn't belong.
But Tommy Heinsohn as a coach? He only coached for nine years, and he only coached the Celtics. Sure, he won a couple titles, but when the heck did Tommy Freaking Heinsohn become a Hall of Fame caliber coach?
It's sort of embarrassing that this eleven member class is headlined by Lisa Leslie and Dick Bavetta. I guess Mutombo is an okay pick. It's good to see a defensive player get recognized. |
Lisa Leslie left the mark of being the first female dunker. At least it will not be forgotten.
Chris Mullin should not be there. He never won anything in the NBA and spend many years puzzling people why he underachieved. Alcohol, migraines, injuries... The Warriors were crap in the playoffs when he was there. He was a role player in the Pacers when they made it ot the Finals.
His two Olympic gold medals are not sufficient.
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 7:14 am Post subject: |
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| Mullin was a first-team All-American in college, took St. John's to the Final Four during the Golden Age of the Big East, and won the Wooden Award. I can live with him going into the Hall on that basis, but otherwise you're right. His NBA career doesn't do it by itself. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 8:19 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | The Basketball Hall of Fame seems determined to cheapen itself. There probably needs to be a time limit similar to what they have in baseball. Seriously, the Hall of Fame is down to mining second tier stars from the '70s. |
Over the past half decade, the Hall has let in a flood of borderline guys who were sitting around forever - White, Bernard King, Jamaal Wilkes, Chet Walker, Ralph Sampson, Mel Daniels, Dennis Johnson, Mitch Richmond, Adrien Dantlley.
That's quite a run of second-tier Hall of Famers. Makes me wonder if they got in a whole new voting crew came in. Cause starting around 2010 a bunch of guys who had been waiting 10 years or more began getting in. |
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carlosLisboa
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| Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | The Basketball Hall of Fame seems determined to cheapen itself. There probably needs to be a time limit similar to what they have in baseball. Seriously, the Hall of Fame is down to mining second tier stars from the '70s. |
Over the past half decade, the Hall has let in a flood of borderline guys who were sitting around forever - White, Bernard King, Jamaal Wilkes, Chet Walker, Ralph Sampson, Mel Daniels, Dennis Johnson, Mitch Richmond, Adrien Dantlley.
That's quite a run of second-tier Hall of Famers. Makes me wonder if they got in a whole new voting crew came in. Cause starting around 2010 a bunch of guys who had been waiting 10 years or more began getting in. |
Mitch Richmond should not be there. All Star Game MVP, 1 Olympic medal, but the most of his career was racking up scoring numbers in Sacramento. A disaster in LA. I liked him, though.
Bernard King. The 60 point game on Xmas day, the heroic return to shape in WAS after many years battling injuries and little else.
Dantley made it to the Finals once with the Pistons, leading the team in scoring. Not so fond of him as a person and ball hog style.
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| carlosLisboa wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | The Basketball Hall of Fame seems determined to cheapen itself. There probably needs to be a time limit similar to what they have in baseball. Seriously, the Hall of Fame is down to mining second tier stars from the '70s. |
Over the past half decade, the Hall has let in a flood of borderline guys who were sitting around forever - White, Bernard King, Jamaal Wilkes, Chet Walker, Ralph Sampson, Mel Daniels, Dennis Johnson, Mitch Richmond, Adrien Dantlley.
That's quite a run of second-tier Hall of Famers. Makes me wonder if they got in a whole new voting crew came in. Cause starting around 2010 a bunch of guys who had been waiting 10 years or more began getting in. |
Mitch Richmond should not be there. All Star Game MVP, 1 Olympic medal, but the most of his career was racking up scoring numbers in Sacramento. A disaster in LA. I liked him, though.
Bernard King. The 60 point game on Xmas day, the heroic return to shape in WAS after many years battling injuries and little else.
Dantley made it to the Finals once with the Pistons, leading the team in scoring. Not so fond of him as a person and ball hog style. |
I wouldn't have put in any of those guys either. I would have put in Sidney Moncrief before any of them. |
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70sdude
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| Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | carlosLisboa wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | The Basketball Hall of Fame seems determined to cheapen itself. There probably needs to be a time limit similar to what they have in baseball. Seriously, the Hall of Fame is down to mining second tier stars from the '70s. |
Over the past half decade, the Hall has let in a flood of borderline guys who were sitting around forever - White, Bernard King, Jamaal Wilkes, Chet Walker, Ralph Sampson, Mel Daniels, Dennis Johnson, Mitch Richmond, Adrien Dantlley.
That's quite a run of second-tier Hall of Famers. Makes me wonder if they got in a whole new voting crew came in. Cause starting around 2010 a bunch of guys who had been waiting 10 years or more began getting in. |
Mitch Richmond should not be there. All Star Game MVP, 1 Olympic medal, but the most of his career was racking up scoring numbers in Sacramento. A disaster in LA. I liked him, though.
Bernard King. The 60 point game on Xmas day, the heroic return to shape in WAS after many years battling injuries and little else.
Dantley made it to the Finals once with the Pistons, leading the team in scoring. Not so fond of him as a person and ball hog style. |
I wouldn't have put in any of those guys either. I would have put in Sidney Moncrief before any of them. |
I don't see a shift in the pattern of awarding players in the entrance of Wilkes, Walker, DJ, etc. All three were third best players on two title teams or more each, and had fine college careers. They're entirely consistent with the second tier players from the '71 Knicks (DeBusschere, Bradley, Lucas) and the '66 Celtics (Sam Jones, KC Jones, Tom Sanders and Heinsohn) being added. Great players all, though several not ever best guy on a roster (hence, "second tier"). They all belong because they were superior players on superior clubs, I think. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| 70sdude wrote: | | I don't see a shift in the pattern of awarding players in the entrance of Wilkes, Walker, DJ, etc. All three were third best players on two title teams or more each, and had fine college careers. They're entirely consistent with the second tier players from the '71 Knicks (DeBusschere, Bradley, Lucas) and the '66 Celtics (Sam Jones, KC Jones, Tom Sanders and Heinsohn) being added. Great players all, though several not ever best guy on a roster (hence, "second tier"). They all belong because they were superior players on superior clubs, I think. |
No offense, but when you call Tom Sanders a "great player" you make me wonder if you are just pulling names of people off a list without knowing who they are.
Sanders didn't make the Hall as a player; he made it as a "contributor" (after his playing career ended, he served as a trustee for the Hall of Fame and developed the program to help rookies transition from college to the pros).
He wasn't a great player. Bill Bradley isn't equivalent to Jerry Lucas (a perennial all-NBAer and Top 50 guy) just because they were teammates. KJ Jones (one of the worst Hall choices ever) isn't equivalent to Sam Jones (another top 50 guys) just because they were teammates. |
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70sdude
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 6:17 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | 70sdude wrote: | | I don't see a shift in the pattern of awarding players in the entrance of Wilkes, Walker, DJ, etc. All three were third best players on two title teams or more each, and had fine college careers. They're entirely consistent with the second tier players from the '71 Knicks (DeBusschere, Bradley, Lucas) and the '66 Celtics (Sam Jones, KC Jones, Tom Sanders and Heinsohn) being added. Great players all, though several not ever best guy on a roster (hence, "second tier"). They all belong because they were superior players on superior clubs, I think. |
No offense, but when you call Tom Sanders a "great player" you make me wonder if you are just pulling names of people off a list without knowing who they are.
Sanders didn't make the Hall as a player; he made it as a "contributor" (after his playing career ended, he served as a trustee for the Hall of Fame and developed the program to help rookies transition from college to the pros).
He wasn't a great player. Bill Bradley isn't equivalent to Jerry Lucas (a perennial all-NBAer and Top 50 guy) just because they were teammates. KJ Jones (one of the worst Hall choices ever) isn't equivalent to Sam Jones (another top 50 guys) just because they were teammates. |
Get over yourself. I watched all those guy as players. I'm 79.
Satch was Dennis Rodman v 0.5, an athlete who could defend the 3, 4 or five. Fit in great with Russ but was not individual star; greatness does not require being an individual star.
Never said BB and Lucas were equivalent; no player is equivalent to another. I said they're in the Hall because of the teams they were on and the impact they made on those teams (including college) and that neither would be in if they'd served, for example, on the the Hawks or Pistons of the time. Winning big draws attention to complementary players deservedly. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 6:37 am Post subject: |
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| 70sdude wrote: | Get over yourself. I watched all those guy as players. I'm 79.
Satch was Dennis Rodman v 0.5, an athlete who could defend the 3, 4 or five. Fit in great with Russ but was not individual star; greatness does not require being an individual star. |
You must be kidding. Greatness doesn't require being an individual star? Smush Parker must be happy to hear that.
Tom Sanders never averaged 13 points or 10 rebounds in a season, and he played in an era of bloated stats. He shot .428 from the field. I only vaguely remember him, because he was just a scrub who played on championship teams. He was not Dennis Rodman v 0.5. Antonio Davis would be more like it.
Just about anyone with a pulse on those Celtics teams made the Hall of Fame as a player, including some really embarrassing selections like KC Jones. Sanders did not. What does that tell you?
The Hall of Fame selection process made itself look silly when it came to the '60s teams, and now it is doing the same with the '70s teams. I'm surprised that this hasn't led to more of a backlash, but I suppose that just shows that people don't care about the basketball Hall as much as the baseball Hall. |
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70sdude
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:24 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | 70sdude wrote: | Get over yourself. I watched all those guy as players. I'm 79.
Satch was Dennis Rodman v 0.5, an athlete who could defend the 3, 4 or five. Fit in great with Russ but was not individual star; greatness does not require being an individual star. |
You must be kidding. Greatness doesn't require being an individual star? Smush Parker must be happy to hear that.
Tom Sanders never averaged 13 points or 10 rebounds in a season, and he played in an era of bloated stats. He shot .428 from the field. I only vaguely remember him, because he was just a scrub who played on championship teams. He was not Dennis Rodman v 0.5. Antonio Davis would be more like it.
Just about anyone with a pulse on those Celtics teams made the Hall of Fame as a player, including some really embarrassing selections like KC Jones. Sanders did not. What does that tell you?
The Hall of Fame selection process made itself look silly when it came to the '60s teams, and now it is doing the same with the '70s teams. I'm surprised that this hasn't led to more of a backlash, but I suppose that just shows that people don't care about the basketball Hall as much as the baseball Hall. |
Frankly, fans look silly when they present themselves as better arbiters of HoF worthiness than the Naismith itself. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| Wow. You really told us off. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| 70sdude wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | 70sdude wrote: | Get over yourself. I watched all those guy as players. I'm 79.
Satch was Dennis Rodman v 0.5, an athlete who could defend the 3, 4 or five. Fit in great with Russ but was not individual star; greatness does not require being an individual star. |
You must be kidding. Greatness doesn't require being an individual star? Smush Parker must be happy to hear that.
Tom Sanders never averaged 13 points or 10 rebounds in a season, and he played in an era of bloated stats. He shot .428 from the field. I only vaguely remember him, because he was just a scrub who played on championship teams. He was not Dennis Rodman v 0.5. Antonio Davis would be more like it.
Just about anyone with a pulse on those Celtics teams made the Hall of Fame as a player, including some really embarrassing selections like KC Jones. Sanders did not. What does that tell you?
The Hall of Fame selection process made itself look silly when it came to the '60s teams, and now it is doing the same with the '70s teams. I'm surprised that this hasn't led to more of a backlash, but I suppose that just shows that people don't care about the basketball Hall as much as the baseball Hall. |
Frankly, fans look silly when they present themselves as better arbiters of HoF worthiness than the Naismith itself. |
We cannot let the irony pass unnoticed!
My friend, you originally thought, incorrectly, that Tom Sanders was a Hall of Fame player. When your error was pointed out, you dug in and defended him as if he were a Hall of Famer, rather than acknowledge you had simply made an error. So by continuing to defend his greatness in the context of this discussion about Hall of Fame worthiness, you are indeed putting yourself above "The Naismith itself."
No worries -- it's hard to not get all twisted up when you are simultaneously trying to defend dubious opinions and factual errors. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| 70sdude wrote: | | Never said BB and Lucas were equivalent; no player is equivalent to another. I said they're in the Hall because of the teams they were on and the impact they made on those teams (including college) and that neither would be in if they'd served, for example, on the the Hawks or Pistons of the time. Winning big draws attention to complementary players deservedly. |
Huh? Jerry Lucas didn't get in the Hall because he won a ring at the end of his career as a supporting player for the Knicks. He's in the Hall because he was a star for many years on Cincinnati, which pretty much was the Hawks of the time.
I mean, do you understand Jerry Lucas is the Hall because of his 20-20 years as a first-team all-NBA player for Cincinatti teams that were going 39-43 some years? |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:55 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | The Hall of Fame selection process made itself look silly when it came to the '60s teams, and now it is doing the same with the '70s teams. I'm surprised that this hasn't led to more of a backlash, but I suppose that just shows that people don't care about the basketball Hall as much as the baseball Hall. |
I'd say you're right about people not caring about the Basketball Hall of Fame. It's a weird beast combining professional basketball, college basketball, foreign players, men and women.
On top of that, the process is so mysterious and corrupt. It's pretty well known that there's a lot of cronyism and log-rolling among the small pool of people who select the entrants.
In contrast, the Baseball Hall is so open, and dedicated to players fans know. The Baseball Hall is the gold standard for Halls of Fame; the Basketball Hall is something of a joke. |
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70sdude
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:13 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | 70sdude wrote: | | Never said BB and Lucas were equivalent; no player is equivalent to another. I said they're in the Hall because of the teams they were on and the impact they made on those teams (including college) and that neither would be in if they'd served, for example, on the the Hawks or Pistons of the time. Winning big draws attention to complementary players deservedly. |
Huh? Jerry Lucas didn't get in the Hall because he won a ring at the end of his career as a supporting player for the Knicks. He's in the Hall because he was a star for many years on Cincinnati, which pretty much was the Hawks of the time.
I mean, do you understand Jerry Lucas is the Hall because of his 20-20 years as a first-team all-NBA player for Cincinatti teams that were going 39-43 some years? |
Let's get this straight, if you have the IQ for it.
I called Sanders a great player and worthy of the Hall; much of that worthiness is because he was a member of great teams. You call the process mysterious and corrupt and a joke out of one side of your mouth, something that the public doesn't care about, but you jump in again defend the membership of Jerry Lucas with the other side of your mouth. That's entertaining. You have no clue my friend. |
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carlosLisboa
Star Player
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3079
Location: Portugal
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: |
In contrast, the Baseball Hall is so open, and dedicated to players fans know. The Baseball Hall is the gold standard for Halls of Fame; the Basketball Hall is something of a joke. |
What do you mean? That the fact very few countries except the US care about baseball makes it better than basketball's?
The problem about the NBA basketball HoF is hardly the foreign players.
It is more the case of NBA old acquaintances lobbying and adding friends in, undeservedly.
There are many basketball fans around there. I (as well as hundreds of millions of europeans) cannot see why people bother to watch baseball at all. And it is not a matter of ignorance. I have studied the rules and tried to watch a game and it is just boring. American football is quite fun, and worth watching, and some people actually see the Superbowl. Ice hockey is also very nice, but roller skate hockey is more popular.
I am sure Grant Hill will be there one day.
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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| 70sdude wrote: | | Let's get this straight, if you have the IQ for it. |
That's always a great way to start a winning argument. |
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Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| carlosLisboa wrote: | What do you mean? That the fact very few countries except the US care about baseball makes it better than basketball's?
The problem about the NBA basketball HoF is hardly the foreign players.
It is more the case of NBA old acquaintances lobbying and adding friends in, undeservedly.
There are many basketball fans around there. I (as well as hundreds of millions of europeans) cannot see why people bother to watch baseball at all. And it is not a matter of ignorance. I have studied the rules and tried to watch a game and it is just boring. American football is quite fun, and worth watching, and some people actually see the Superbowl. Ice hockey is also very nice, but roller skate hockey is more popular.
I am sure Grant Hill will be there one day. |
This isn't a question of baseball vs. basketball. It's a question of the integrity of the process. As you say, there is a lot of apparent cronyism with the basketball hall. Baseball actually had this problem at one point, as detailed in Bill James' book on the subject.
International players aren't the problem, per se. However, one of the problems is that there are several difference pools of players who are not directly comparable: NBA, college, international, women's. This makes it easy to justify just about anything. Adrian Dantley was regarded as a cancer in the NBA? But he had a great college career! |
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